Mini 801- Kubrick Mafia (Over)

[AshMC1984]

Oh.

[Fishythefish]

As well as the wagon situation, it is worth considering how close we are to deadline in timing your claim- particularly if you are something which is likely to make the town reconsider. We don't want a mislynch or a no lynch because there is insufficient time after an interesting claim.

@skitzer (et al): what are the "good points" for the muzzz case? I really feel I'm missing something.

[ortolan]

Thankfully re-reading didn't take long

When I re-read I was again suspecting Blood before I saw his claim.

I am curious that muzzz seemed to pre-emptively assume that Blood was "100% not a vanilla townie". At that point I was trying to work out whether or not he was scum and I wonder why muzzz almost seemed to have foreknowledge he was a town power-role rather than scum.

I am wondering if for flavour reasons perhaps the scum didn't get knowledge of Spartacus, then again that seems a bit unbalanced because of the number of townspeople you can confirm by their immediate reaction. I think this would entail an unbalanced game ergo I'm presently concluding scum had knowledge of the whole Spartacus thing.

Hesitant = "mmm may as well...I'm not convinced this is a wise move but...I am Spartacus." The others did not seem to waffle on as you did here.

My reasoning here is - which I took from Fish's quote - that urging everyone to claim Spartacus muddies up the waters as I have reasons to believe that Spartacians are pro-town.

Presumption of broken setup? Really? With that join date? I also still dislike lazarus' softclaim.

Note: 137 discussion of role pm by lazarus

I don't like Pads' 139. There is still no reason he should have known what the purpose of claiming Spartacus was.

The post in which Ortolan claimed Spartacus included several lines before the actual claim. Those lines explained what was coming and built up to the eventual claim of Spartacus, like a movie building up to a climax for maximum effect. That's showmanship. And it struck me as insincere.

This is a terrible attack on me, it would almost be enough for me to vote him for alone.

The motivation for scum would be to present themselves as part of the uninformed majority. The motivation for the showmanship is to make sure everyone sees 'how uninformed you are' to help sell the act.

And how was I presenting myself as the uninformed majority?

while muzzz has helped me stem the tide of the more craplogic attacks against me, the extreme cynic inside me would say he was taking the opportunity to earn brownie points by defending a townie.

Don't like Spolium's 187 request for a role pm paraphrase, there is no skepticism of his claim.

Blood please don't tell us if/when your cop power is activated.

I have also liked Pads' more recent posts, his defence of his comment against me seemed earnest.

You've either missed, or conveniently side-stepped my intended point. My point is that you suspect me claiming that it seemed I didn't know the reason for Pads claiming, yet omit ortolan. His post was earlier than mine, and shows incredulity when mine showed curiosity.

Please elaborate on what this is supposed to mean.

I see very subtle play that was outted in the thread and I see some well poisoning by orto and muzz.

I reread the recent BC/muzz/pads debate. Pads early claim prompted the end of the random phase and did reveal info. Some players got extremely anxious and aggressive over the Spartacus issue.

BC has argued his points better than muzz so

Unvote; Vote Muzz

Well poisoning? Please explain? And someone arguing their case better than someone else is definitely not a reason for voting them.

Subtle third person claim, hindsight 20/20

That point is crap.

poisoning the well

Presumption of broken setup = no no.

I think the muzzz bandwagon is likely heavily scum-fuelled. I think Pads and Infinis being scum together is pretty likely right now.

Said very confidently.

Really, tell me what you consider fast? How many days was my vote on one player? I state why I changing my vote, I thought BC's argument was stronger than muzz's. Lynch me, if you must but I'm not hacking through that back and forth between the two, to justify my interpretation of their arguments.

Scummy. You're not in danger of being lynched either.

You're in both scenarios because you're vote is crucial now and refuse to use it responsibly to help town. A mislynch, even my own, would help town progress, you are stonewalling which is anti-town. making it seem pro-town is scummy.

I don't like this comment when you're not a viable lynch at this stage. You should never ever be happy with your own lynch anyway, whether it is a mislynch or not.

Unvote:
Vote: Infinis

I urge people to look at Infinis now.

[ortolan]

If Ash revotes his top suspect then we will only need four votes to lynch in five days if desired, which is readily attainable. I at least want people's comments on why they don't find Infinis scummy when they next post. "We can't get a bandwagon going in time" is not an excuse with five days to go.

[AshMC1984]

You've either missed, or conveniently side-stepped my intended point. My point is that you suspect me claiming that it seemed I didn't know the reason for Pads claiming, yet omit ortolan. His post was earlier than mine, and shows incredulity when mine showed curiosity.

Please elaborate on what this is supposed to mean.

Sure - Infinis was selective about which of two very similar instances to deem scummy. Both you and I questioned the wisdom of Pads original early claim. You did so earlier than me and to a higher degree than me. Yet Infinis ignored you and called me scummy for it. I therefore think it only suited his scummy ends at the time to call it a scum-tell of mine. When I pointed it out to him, he maintained ignorance of the similarity between the two instances.

If Ash revotes his top suspect then we will only need four votes to lynch in five days if desired, which is readily attainable.

Fair enough.

*Pledge to re-instate my Infinis-vote if enough people are down with that plan.*

TBH I was / am surprised at the lack of interest in my Infinis-case. I thought it pretty good.

I still like Infinis as top scum suspect - I'm only voting Muzzz as the lesser of 3 evils (the greater 2 being a deadlined No-Lynch and Pads crap-wagon.)

[Fishythefish]

If Ash revotes his top suspect then we will only need four votes to lynch in five days if desired, which is readily attainable. I at least want people's comments on why they don't find Infinis scummy when they next post. "We can't get a bandwagon going in time" is not an excuse with five days to go.

I find Infinis scummy, and have been considering a bandwagon on him.

The main thing is the paired bandwagons on Pads and muzzz. They way they have got stuck suggests to me that one of them is likely to be on scum.

I'll take another look at Infinis though. I haven't really been thinking of him as a viable lynch for today, but perhaps he can indeed be made so.

[Fishythefish]

I've taken another look a Infinis. It didn't take long. He does consistently come across as a player who simply isn't interested in accuracy or reason. He continually refuses to explain his vote on a player whose lynch is very possible. His 229 sets up a false dilemma in which at least one of the wagons is scum (with an added but fairly nonsensical third option).

unvote, vote: Infinis

The Pads wagon isn't that strong if we're honest. It's late in the day, but let's see if we can't lynch the scummiest player.

[Empking]

Vote Count 11

Muzzz (5): Cateraction, Lazurusmoth, Pads, Bloodcovenant, Ash
Infinis (3) Skitzer, Ort, Fishy
Pads (2): Muzzz, Spolium.
Fishy (1): Archon
Not Voting (1): Infinis

7 to Lynch

[BloodCovenent]

Vote count please?

I think the scummiest thing that I saw on Infinis is how fast he jumped to the muzz wagon i believe, and what little evidence he had. i called him out on it, and his defense didn't seem that great. it was at most mediocre. Anyways, depending on the Vote-count... we'll see. Anywho, i'd be willing to hammer, town willing.

[AshMC1984]

Was gonna wait to see support but -

Unvote

so no one quick hammers Muzzz now that we have a viable second option.

Vote: Infinis

[Empking]

Vote Count 11 b

Muzzz (4): Cateraction, Lazurusmoth, Pads, Bloodcovenant
Infinis (4) Skitzer, Ort, Fishy, Ash
Pads (2): Muzzz, Spolium.
Fishy (1): Archon
Not Voting (1): Infinis

7 to Lynch

[Pads]

The site has been eating my posts. This is my third attempt.

a townie claiming Spartacus to hide him? Doesn't make sense. I don't really buy the excuse of following the movie- it would be an odd thing to assume that whatever worked for a character in a movie would work for the corresponding character in a game of mafia.

I don't know how you can say this. If you were in a Batman themed game, would it be odd to assume that Batman and the Joker were on different sides?

Of course a themed game can veer from the subject material in any number of ways, but to say that any assumption of similarity between the subject material and the game is odd is, itself, odd.

Mason theory- a thinly disguised way to attack muzzz (for probably not being in a hypothetical mason group). His post implies a false dichotomy- muzzz the Spartacan mason or muzzz the scum.

I don't know what 'thinly disguised' means here, since it wasn't disguised at all. Why would I want to disguise my case against Muzzz?

It doesn't matter if there are Masons are not, the point of that post was to discuss the possibility of Muzzz's actions coming from a townie perspective, specifically from the townie group that I believe is looking for Spartacus.

At no point did I say, or even imply, that scumMuzz and masonMuzzz were the only two possibilities. Do not put those words in my mouth.

I am wondering if for flavour reasons perhaps the scum didn't get knowledge of Spartacus, then again that seems a bit unbalanced because of the number of townspeople you can confirm by their immediate reaction. I think this would entail an unbalanced game ergo I'm presently concluding scum had knowledge of the whole Spartacus thing.

That's a reasonable line of thought, and it begs the question, did they only know that Spartacus existed, or did they also know that other non-Spartacus people would have the name Spartacus to fake claim? It might be impossible to know before the game is over, but if we did somehow learn before that (via some lynched scum), then it might give all new context to the first few pages of the game.

I find Inifnis' and Ash's cases against each other to be uninspiring. I still like my Muzzz vote, but would still consider an Ortolan wagon today. People I would definitely not vote for today are Blood and Fishy.

[muzzz]

@Emp: Infinis unvoted in 232

---

I am curious that muzzz seemed to pre-emptively assume that Blood was "100% not a vanilla townie". At that point I was trying to work out whether or not he was scum and I wonder why muzzz almost seemed to have foreknowledge he was a town power-role rather than scum.

I figured that the simplest explanation for his behavior would be that he is Spartacus, and wasn't informed that other people knew about him. And I really do love Occam.

But I should note that what I expected was a Spartacus

claim

. In other words, if BC is scum, I'd still expect him to have claimed Spartacus there. At this point I see very little direct evidence for or against his claim. We should definitely give him the benefit of the doubt for now, but I don't see him as a confirmed pro-town role.

---

At no point did I say, or even imply, that scumMuzz and masonMuzzz were the only two possibilities. Do not put those words in my mouth.

They were the only two possibilities you talked about. That in itself implies enough. If that's not what you intended, you should speak more.

---

If it was just me, I'd rather lynch Pads than Infinis today. But with the current state of the Pads bandwagon, I no longer see that happening. So...

Unvote, vote: Infinis

[Fishythefish]

I don't know how you can say this. If you were in a Batman themed game, would it be odd to assume that Batman and the Joker were on different sides?

Of course a themed game can veer from the subject material in any number of ways, but to say that any assumption of similarity between the subject material and the game is odd is, itself, odd.

You'd expect a theme game to follow it's subject matter a certain amount. Batman and the joker being on different sides, yes. Pre-emptively claiming Spartacus? Not so obvious.

I don't know what 'thinly disguised' means here, since it wasn't disguised at all. Why would I want to disguise my case against Muzzz?

It doesn't matter if there are Masons are not, the point of that post was to discuss the possibility of Muzzz's actions coming from a townie perspective, specifically from the townie group that I believe is looking for Spartacus.

At no point did I say, or even imply, that scumMuzz and masonMuzzz were the only two possibilities. Do not put those words in my mouth.

Your post brings up a random theory, implies it to be likely, and attacks muzzz in the context of that theory. This is an unfair way to attack a player.
Your post's conclusion:

Which brings me back to my reconsideration. Maybe you're in that Mason group, Muzzz. But if that were the case, I gotta think you would have stayed silent upon realizing that BC was likely Spartacus, rather than drag him out into the open. My vote stands.

I think this implies that if muzzz isn't in the mason group, he is scum.

[skitzer]

@skitzer (et al): what are the "good points" for the muzzz case? I really feel I'm missing something.

I don't like his general disagreement with the Spartacus claims. I think it's obvious from hours of research (a.k.a. watching the movie) that all pro-town characters would be advised to claim Spartacus. Whether or not scum we're given this info as well, the smart ones would claim along with them to avoid scrutiny. This is why the muzzz case is good.

I am in favor of the Infinis case, as can be seen with my already placed vote.

[Infinis]

Vote Muzz

[BloodCovenent]

Wow, find that Muzz's vote on Infinis seemed very opportunistic. Muzz's post 262 spends little time at all speaking about infinis, just that he notices that the Pads wagon is going nowhere. So he goes to vote Infinis. I don't like it.

Now, in 265, Infinis votes muzz... OMIGUS? Scummy, none the less. Could this be desperate scum acting out against his partner? I think it quite possibly could.

Infinis Today, Muzz Tomorrow.

I'll be willing to hammer when the town see's fit. I think I already stated where I see Infinis as slightly scummy, this most recent posts enhances my read on him.

Unvote:

[cateraction]

Vote Muzz

Not even gonna try?

unvote; Vote: Infinis

[muzzz]

Wow, find that Muzz's vote on Infinis seemed very opportunistic. Muzz's post 262 spends little time at all speaking about infinis, just that he notices that the Pads wagon is going nowhere. So he goes to vote Infinis. I don't like it.

My vote is only opportunistic in the sense that I'm willing to settle for 2nd scummiest today. If you look through my posts, you'll see that I have quite a few valid reasons to vote Infinis. The only reason I didn't vote him earlier was because I thought we could lynch Pads.

[BloodCovenent]

Infinis is at L-1 i believe.

I am asking for a role claim at this point.

[Infinis]

Infinis is at L-1 i believe.

I am asking for a role claim at this point.

Vanilla Town, an extra

And no I'm not going to bother. I've made an effort to participate in this game. I rather have a mislynch than no lynch. Lastly it be easy for the remaining town to pick the scum off my wagon.

Lastly, I clearly stated my reason for my vote on muzz (BC argued his points better) I then went on to clarify the position. I explained why I changed my vote. I even unvoted to avoid a quick lynch. I pushed the town forward instead of having the entire game stall.

If someone coming in after a week can turn the town so quickly then I hope you can see how scum driven this wagon is. If I die, I die knowing town shall prevail.

[BloodCovenent]

I think I buy this. Townie, an

extra

, as in a movie extra. This makes sense to me, since we are playing mafia based on a movie.

But it doesn't explain the OMIGUS vote on Muzzz, hearing the reasoning behind that would be nice.

I may have to go to my original intentions and want to lynch Muzzz.

[cateraction]

Vanilla clam shouldn't dissuade us from lynching. I'm OK with a hammer at this point.

[AshMC1984]

Unvote

I believe Infinis.

[BloodCovenent]

Vanilla clam shouldn't dissuade us from lynching. I'm OK with a hammer at this point.

It wasn't the vanilla claim, but the two words after that.