Mafia 96 - Murder in Emerald City (Game Over!)

[iamausername]

-=Vote Count #3=-

Mastin (4) - Kublai Khan, roflcopter, Empking's Alt, Johnny Rotten
Hayker (2) - Faraday, Namttam
Johnny Rotten (2) - Kise, Mastin
Kublai Khan (1) - ZazieR

Not Voting (12) - Achilles, BloodCovenent, cateraction, ckool5000, dvdkid13, Hayker, MafiaMann, Mufasa, Redith, reveillark, Wickedestjr, fallen angel

11 to lynch.

[Wickedestjr]

@Post 154 by ZazieR - When I said I was going to treat Khan like an ordinary player, I meant that if he did something scummy, then I'd treat him the exact way that I would if he hadn't claimed miller.

@Mastin - When I said "I would hesitate to vote Khan because he claimed miller", I meant to say "I would

not

hesitate to vote Khan because he claimed scum." I am very glad that you are scum hunting and please continue to do so. The only reason I said that about who I'd vote at a nearing deadline with nobody acting scummy, was because I was mostly paying attention to your posts in the RVS. All of the posts of yours that were not in the RVS actually have been contributing. I have not played many games of mafia, and most of which have been different from the games I've played on MS. I am not used to people constantly asking others questions. I used to find this suspicious when playing previous games. You asked something about inconsistency in my post. Can you please rephrase this question?

As for roflcopter, I am no longer as suspicious of him as I was at the beginning of the game.

I can still not think about who I will vote for. I have read the first 6 and a half pages, and I am hoping to catch up soon.

[ckool5000]

You know what I think? I think the following people REALLY need to share their opinions/what they've found out:

Achilles
BloodCovenent
dvdkid13
Namttam
Redith
reveillark

Seriously, you six are on the borderline of lurking.

You too Wickedestjr... But you posted right before this post, so at least we know you're here.

[MafiaMann]

Ok, I hadn''t seen yet that MM didn''t throw any opinions in.
Do you have anything to add?

(Happy scumday btw )

I think mastins not being completely clear in everything he says. His use of sarcasm is confusing and breeds WIFOM arguments. I dont know if its scummy or the way he plays but definitely is not helpful when he isnt straight forward with the town.

So the reason why you only call out Mastin, but not me, is?
Also, in this post you mention that it could be his play (finding an excuse why it's not scummy), but in your previous post (post 171) you state that you're tired of everything is just Mastin being Mastin.
So what is it?

Im not excusing him i still want him not to

[MafiaMann]

My opinion on scum is maybe ckool because some of his posts dont contain much meat but I may be guilty of something similar.

Also Hayker seems to be making a lot of mistakes and some of which can misleading. Im no longer suspicous of mastin or khan.

[Mastin]

(Please note that this is typed at 1:30 am. If my responses seem less logical than normal for even me, that's why.)

I will post something of more signifigance than this when things slow down a bit

This is kinda, well, active lurking.

More or less skimmed, Mastin.

Nice to know.
But what'd you get from just the skim?
And do you plan to follow through with a reread?

I skipped a couple of pages due to walls of text

Eh, it happens when people skim. (Psst. When I'm dead/spectating a game, I skim walls of text as well. Alive and well, not so much [the proof is in the posts ], but it's fine when I'm dead.)

and not caring that much.

You didn't care about the scum hunting done in there?
Could you explain this, please?

No offense.

None taken.

So. He didn't have anything to say.

Empking's...well, Empking. He always does that. :/

He kinda just showed up and waggoned.

Like I said, I think I'm Empking's policy vote or something. <_<

Idk. Just don't feel right about him.

Yea...Empking's weird like that. I'm kinda surprised every game where he lives a long time. :/

He has my FoS.

But why no vote?

The "3am before bed post"

I love writing those!
...Too bad my internet pretty much only has a ten percent chance of working at that time. <_<

Perhaps, I don't know.

Mafia did it as well, mind you.

I didn't quite read it like that,

At the very least, Kublai Khan was being inconsistent--he called two people out for debating what killed who, and then goes off to speculate that the mafia doctor kill was a really lucky vig.

I'll let KK explain it though

Agreed. I want this as well.

as I'm interested in seeing what he says.

Yea...it's always best to hear it from the player accused.

Alright, this is reasonable

A rare moment from me.

I enjoy reading mafia games almost as much as playing in them

Ah...it's amazing how many players in here have similarities to me. If you combine many of the better traits in all the players here, you might theoretically end up with a clone of me.

I guess, although the reasons for finding rofl suspicious were rather, sup par, I felt.

That I agree with. But again, I can see where the reasoning is coming from.

I'm sure ye bastards will post up a storm during the night and give me loads to read

Yup. 3+ wall of text order, coming right up! That'll be five responses, please. Pay via cash, credit, or preferably, post.

My Role PM just says I'm a regular miller.

It seems like poor practice to not PM the mod for clarification on what type of miller you are.

Please do so now.

I haven't checked iamausername's meta-mod to see if he's the type of mod to get creative with secret roles.

...Or, you can just ask Iamausername what type of miller you are and save yourself the trouble of searching through Iamausername's modded games.

So I'm a regular miller

It's a decent assumption, but...

as far as I know.

Again, you should ask the mod to make sure.

It doesn't show crap.

It seems to do so for me. It showed an inconsistency, which it is your job to explain and clarify.

In context I was asking ckool5000 why he thought "scenario A" happened and not an alternative "Scenario B".

Your words, were, essentially, "why didn't you consider the possibility that we have a really lucky vig?"

There are many possible scenarios.
You called him out for assuming one, and then seemed to assume a scenario yourself.
When other options clearly exist.
This is what needs explaining.

I never said that "Scenario B" is what I thought happened.

It definitely seemed that way to me, Khan.

Kise's comment definitely wasn't a breadcrumb and it read like a hardclaim.

It seemed stronger than a breadcrumb, weaker than a hard claim. (Soft claim)

Kise is claiming it was an entrapment ploy, so there ya go.

That's not what I interpreted Kise's response as. I interpreted his response as a bit of wifom and called you out for the "rolefishing".

And I definitely don't like the "entrapment ploy" idea.

I agree with you that it's odd that roflcopter didn't include me in the rolefishing accusation.

Yea...that's tunneling for ya.

But I guess it looks like roflcopter is serious about his desire to not lynch me.

Doesn't change how he was inconsistent.

I don't think anyone ignored it because it was "Mastin being Mastin".

They ignored it because it was my RVS tactics.

I think it got mostly ignored because it was the first post in the game.

RVS, actually.

But I did mention in post 33 that I thought Mastin was the type of person who would enjoy joking about how scummy he was when he actually was scum.

Because jokes are so fun.

He agreed with me in post 40.

Yea, I believe I did.

I was referring to your suggestion that there are mirror mafia groups.

Eh, it's a decent assumption.

It's just a really random assumption to make.

Random? Yea. Unnecessary? Sure. But it is a likely and fairly reasonable assumption to make, in my opinion.

Unless, of course, you're also a Mafia Doctor.

It's not so much that he made the assumption, but rather, that he pointed it out which makes the difference to me.

In which case it's a perfectly reasonable assumption.

Again, nothing wrong with assuming mirror scum groups. Pointing out the assumption is where problems probably lie, though.

I hate stuff like this

As do I.

Why was it so important to get in your FOS announced right away before you had time to post an actual reason?

Yea...Redith, you kinda need to answer questions such as this.

It's an FOS, not a vote.

*Nods*. Mm-hm. Khan's Correct.

Why don't you just wait until you have time to post, then post both your FOS and your reason(s).

I'd like for you to both
1: Answer why you didn't do that,
and
2: Start doing it.

EBWOP: Reason given.

I got the feeling that it wasn't the entire reasoning, but that it's all he was saying.

Was so short he could have written it the first time.

Theoretically, yes, if that's his only reason.

Active Lurker.

Hopefully not.

@Mastin 187: Why aren't you taking my questions (about meta) seriously?

Eh, remind me what your questions were, again?

Didn't you always brag about how you caught Kronos & jeffcole1 in Newbie 742 according to their RVS comments?

Yea, THEIR RVS comments.

Mastin != Jeff,
Mastin != Kronos,
Mastin != any other MS.net person.

MY RVS comments shouldn't have weight put on them.
Others, more likely than not, at least glance at them from time to time.

IIRC, it's one of your "Insane Tells".

Actually, the exact tell is buddying up early-on.

How come you're asking to be judged differently?

...Because I'm different from most players.
Why else?
Are you really surprised by this very true response?
Really, I'm different. Most things like that don't apply to me.

Dear lord, i hate you Mastin.

Zazie did it too!...

Will read up after beach trip tomorrow.

Good to hear.

damn.... hate you...

Now, now, one's enough. You only need to say that you hate me once.

Mastin- Seems perfectly normal to me.

As normal as I can get, that is.

Lots of scumhunting.

I'm sure many here would disagree.
Personally, I agree, but that's mostly just me.

Pro-town.

Yup.

ZazieR- Mastin with shorter posts.

XP

Roflcopter- Other then a ton of tunneling, not much suspicious about him.

Especially since tunneling is normal from him.

ckool5000- Little content, comments more then really analyzes.

Known as the tell, Information Instead of Analysis, IIoA, for short.

What he does analyze isn't extremely helpful. Attempting to scumhunt.

Yea...this seems to be my general feel for him right now as well.

Faraday- Seems extremely pro-town.

Agreed.

Hayker- Backtracks and doesn't seem to be seriously scumhunting. Neutral at best.

This is a fair assessment.

Johnny Rotten- Waiting for his big post, but the case Kise put on him seems really weak.

This shouldn't determine alignment...

Kise- Weak vote on JR.

I agree, the original reasoning was weak and false.

Tried to put up a reason for it, and failed.

His later reasoning on Johnny's later post, however, was good, as it was mostly my reasoning as well.

Possible softclaim of a killing role, then backtracks. Neutral leaning towards scummy.

I agree with this.

MM- Seems newbtown

Explain to me how someone having a scum day can POSSIBLY be newbtown.

Who's your top suspect of those you listed?

Seriously though, it seems you're mainly attacking Rofl for his playstyle in post 169.

Not so much attacking, as pointing out the flaws in it. (Like how when he targets a pro-town player, it backfires.)

Why is that?

He's targeting me. I don't think he's scum, but I will try to discourage him from his insistence that I am scum.

I do have one random, off topic question.

Sure. One only.

What the hell is a "scum-day"?

Anniversary for joining MS.net day. Mine, for example, is October Eight, and would be my first Scumday.

Is that just a fancy name for birthday?

Actually...we have those as well.

I tend to look at things in a fairly black and white kind of way.

And this is scummy. NOTHING is absolute in the game, nothing black, nothing white. Anything can be a scum tell, yet occasionally done by town, anything can be a town tell, yet still done by scum.

Nothing's black and white in mafia.

Yes, the object of the game is to lynch scum (from a town standpoint)

Which lynching me will not be doing...

or to lynch town (from a mafia standpoint)

Which would happen if lynching me...

with the ultimate objective being to eliminate all of the other side.

It's the objective EVERY MINUTE OF THE GAME.
From Night Zero.
To Day One.
To Night One.
To Day Two.
And so on and so on.
Town want mafia dead.
Mafia want town dead.
It's true from any point in time, including day one.

Now, my call for other people opinions on Mastin was made with the ultimate objective in mind

How so?
How is asking other people going to, in any way, scum hunt?

which is winning the damn game!!!

Note how he fails to specify that he has a town win condition.

Face it, Mastin (at least so far) has been THE talk of the game.

ONLY in the RVS.
We've had FAR more conversation than that.
Kublai Khan's miller claim.
Mafia's attitude,
ckool's attitude,
Kise's "softclaim",
etc.

I am only one of MANY discussion points in the game.

If he is town, then all he is doing is taking attention away from finding the scum.

On the contrary, that's the opposite of what I'm doing. People can conclude I am town from the talk, and instantly know that I am not scum.
And people who conclude I am scum will fall under heavy attack in the future for being likely scum.

Discussion on a player is pro-town.
A pro-town player WANTS discussion on them,
For it is a way for people to think they are pro-town.

By defending themselves well from others' attacks.

That's a good part of scum hunting.

All the mafia members can sit back and fly UTR, because good ole Mastin will be drawing all the heat on himself.

Again, this is blatantly false. People attacking me draw suspicion to themselves, and if they're scum, that's bad. If they're town, they have to defend themselves, as I have to defend myself. Discussion is always pro-town, no matter who it is aimed at. Drawing the heat temporarily to catch the scum (you) is definitely worth it.

THAT is why I feel he makes for the best lynch at this point.

The thing is, that's called a Policy Lynch, which--site-wide--is considered fairly scummy.

A few other players that have experience with Mastin say that he plays all of his games like this

Making it a null tell, making it something which only mafia will attack me for (note that you ARE attacking me for it).

from start to finish.

They never said that.

We've stated that I play the way I do in the RVS--that gets discussion going.

And then I start scum hunting, defending myself, and lashing back and those who are attacking me and are scummy. (You, for example)

That's incredibly pro-town.

In my opinion, he is a detriment to the town

Again, you fail to explain how anything other than my random voting stage posts are a detriment to the rest of the town, when it is clear that my attitude since the RVS has changed, and that I am now seriously scum hunting. You've yet to explain how scum hunting is in ANY way harmful to the town.
You can't,
Because it isn't.

and should be lynched.

Again, this is called a Policy Lynch, something incredibly scummy to even suggest.

Now, the reason that I did not want to vote before is simple

You're lying. I can tell even from just this that you are.
It's never that simple.

the game JUST started!!

So?!?

The deadline is what, 3 weeks away?

That doesn't mean you can't vote for two weeks, or anything.

Not voting-->Showing Caution-->Scum tell.

I didn't see the need to do that yet

And you were called out for it.

but apparently my opinion was the opposite of "good game logic", hence my above vote.

Right, so...
You wanted to hear from everyone before voting...
And yet vote only after hearing a few opinions about why you're wrong.
[sarcasm]That's soooooo pro-town of you. Johnny.[/sarcasm]

I do have one hypothetical question I would like to ask.

Sure, go ahead.

Kublai Khan has claimed Miller.

We are aware of this.

If, by some happenstance, the cop in this game were to investigae KK on night 0, would the result that he/she received change anything?

The cop would receive the report that indicates the miller is guilty--sane cops would get guilty on a miller, insane cops would get innocent...

The reason I ask is simple.

Stop lying about your reason being simple.

the question has been kinda bugging me since last night (real time, not game time), when a lot of talk was on KK and his claim.

The answer should've been made clear from that conversation.

Oh, and you just ADMITTED that there was talk about Khan and his claim, which is NOT talk about me, contradicting your MAIN reason for VOTING ME.
Inconsistency-->Scumtell.

I kept thinking about the above scenario and couldn't make heads or tails of whether or not it would change anything.

It changes the results, most of the time.

BTW, I feel as though I am neglecting to answer a question posed to me earlier.....and to be honest, I am too lazy right now to go looking for it.

I know the feeling. :/

So, if it is your question that I missed, please re-post, or direct me to the original one, and I will be happy to!

I'll look to see what I have directed at you.

As long as the game is Zazie-free, this would be correct.

So true.

Also, stop responding to things that aren't aimed at you >.<

Eh, it's in my nature. Bad habit, I know...

[MafiaMann]

Mastin to be fair I was inactive for a long time maybe about 8 out of the 12 months ive been a member.

[fallen angel]

Mastin- Just because he has been on for about a year doesn't make him experienced. As he said, he was only playing for 4 out of the 12 months. Also, his scumhunting/attempt at it seemed more like stuff in the Road to Rome.

[fallen angel]

Oh, to answer your question, probably ckool mostly because of IIoA. Kise's later reasoning was okay, it was the initial vote that made me suspicious. JR is a bit suspicious because he wants to policy lynch you for no good reason. The point of this game is to read and analyze, and wanting someone policy lynched because you don't want to read is stupid. It seems he must have some ulterior motive for trying to lynch you (you're a strong scumhunter, you suspect a scumbuddy, whatever the reason may be) and is trying to pass you off as anti-town for long posts. Policy lynches =/= pro-town, and should be used as little as possible.

[MafiaMann]

Mastin- Just because he has been on for about a year doesn't make him experienced. As he said, he was only playing for 4 out of the 12 months. Also, his scumhunting/attempt at it seemed more like stuff in the Road to Rome.

Im slightly insulted to be honest

[fallen angel]

Not trying to insult you at all.

[fallen angel]

It's mostly just the same type of posting as ckool, IIoA, that makes it seem newbish to me.

[MafiaMann]

Not trying to insult you at all.

Then it did not have the desired outcome

To be honest newbie behavior shouldnt be excused. Id rather lynch a newbie townie then be beaten by a newbie behaving scum. Im a little bit suspicious of you partly writing me off as newbie in some aspects.

[fallen angel]

And I'm a bit suspicious of your appeal to emotion. I'm not saying newbie behavior should be excused, all I am saying is you seem more like newb-

town

then newb-

scum

. Are you condoning your own lynch?

To be honest newbie behavior shouldnt be excused.

Id rather lynch a newbie townie then be beaten by a newbie behaving scum.

Im a little bit suspicious of you partly writing me off as newbie in some aspects.

Also, why do you find it suspicious that I consider you newbish?

[MafiaMann]

Im not condoning my lynch im condoning your reasoning for not lynching me. If you consider me more townie thats one thing but before you said leaning towards scum which led me to believe you thought i was scum.

Its not suspicious you find my newbieish its suspicious that you were using that as a reason not too lynch me.

[fallen angel]

I wasn't saying that we shouldn't lynch you because you appear newbish, I was saying don't lynch you because you seem neutral.

[MafiaMann]

I wasn't saying that we shouldn't lynch you because you appear newbish, I was saying don't lynch you because you seem neutral.

You definitely said leaning towards scum. Are you changing what you said initially?

[fallen angel]

No, but I said

leaning

towards scum. I don't find you extremely scummy, but you have been questioning more then you have been analyzing. That was my major reason for finding you scummy.

[Namttam]

Because I hadn't posted for a day I become a lurker? I'm apologize if working full time interferes with the game. If it is really that big a concern you can request my replacement.

I'm going to

Unvote. Vote: Johnny Rotten

. First, for not pulling the trigger and voting for Mastin. Second, for suggesting that lynching a townie is a good thing for a town. It makes much more sense to be scum hunting and lynching the most suspicious players instead of the most distracting. Third, if Mastin was the talk of the day then why just ask for more people to comment on him, why not raise some new questions? Fourth, suggesting voting is a scum tell, you specify the early stages of the game but I think that doesn't make the statement anymore valid. And finally... you used "lol" even after it was specifically mentioned as a scum tell in this game.

[MafiaMann]

Namttam your lol reason is extremely weak and was even agreed upon being weak earlier not really worth mentioning. Im not sure i disagree with the rest and you bring up some decent points.

[Achilles]

You know what I think? I think the following people REALLY need to share their opinions/what they've found out:

Achilles
BloodCovenent
dvdkid13
Namttam
Redith
reveillark

Seriously, you six are on the borderline of lurking.

You too Wickedestjr... But you posted right before this post, so at least we know you're here.

I checked the thread this morning and there were like 3 pages, and now there's 11 @__@. I'm going to read everything and post my thoughts tomorrow.

[Mastin]

Aren't there only two?
Mafia, of course, would be the scummier of the two, as the other would be me.

You really don't think that Mastin and his bizarre, mind-fuck style of gameplay has been more of a talk than KK?

Johnny...you just don't get it, do you?
You said that I was the main talk of the day.

It's clear that is not the case.

Most people are scum hunting.
The best way to do that is to ignore my RVS shenanigans.

Maybe the quality of talk is better in the KK side

Which AUTOMATICALLY would make it a stronger discussion topic than me.

but the sheer quantity has got to be in Mastin's camp.

And then, after a post or two of dissatisfaction at my posting length/style/RVS tactics, they barely mention me again and move onto scum hunting.

I understand what the role of the millar is.

Then you wouldn't be asking this question in the first place, now, would you, Johnny?

What I mean to ask is, would it make any difference if the cop were to have investigated KK night 0

Again, if you weren't lying, you should know that the cop would get whatever result indicates Khan's guilty.

and then come forward with his result?

After one night only of investigating?
Bad idea.

Would the guilty or not guilty verdict change anything?

No, it would not.

It's okay, been wrong before, will be wrong again.

If you're admitting you're wrong, Johnny, to everything you had said before (Zaz was countering it all, including your reason for voting me), then why are you still voting me?
Inconsistency, perhaps?

You're not scum hunting.

Yea...he has my vote for a reason.

Policy lynches are bad

Agreed. Look at their play and determine from THAT if they're scum or town.

policy lynches on players adding contribution (and fucking loads of it) to the game are amazingly stupid.

And a huge mistake, which always ends up only making people angry afterwards and normally go hard after the person who pushed for it.

And he's not "taking attention away from finding scum"

I *might* have been in the RVS in the eyes of others, but out of the RVS?
That's scum hunting, me contributing, me finding scum.

that only happens if you're lazy.

Or if you put too much weight into my RVS tactics.

Just read/skim his posts if you wish

Most do. :/

but I really don't see what's so bad about him so far

Most people consider them long.

since when is death miller a normal role anyway?

Since people from epicmafia moved to MS.net. (Epicmafia millers, if night-killed, show up as millers. If lynched, they show up as a mafia goon, though.)

My Role PM says Emerald Miller.

Why didn't you say so earlier? When claiming, say you were an Emerald Miller?
Any specific reason?
Also,
Mind explaining how your role, flavor-wise, would fit into this game?

I assumed that if I was a death miller (or other miller variant), then iamausername would have told me.

BAD assumption.

But if you insist, I'll double check with iamausername.

Yes. Yes, I do.

That STILL leaves MONTHS, meaning it's kinda hard to think of you as a newbie player.

---

For sanity's sake, I'll be trimming down my post length for all of ya.

Also, this is day two; we won't have to wait much longer before requesting prods of the players who haven't posted here at all.

[ckool5000]

Yeah, I'm not the type of guy who posts huge content posts, and I'm not exactly very good at pointing out stuff... If you don't believe me (and I'm not saying you're not) then check out the last game I played in as town... and survived and won. I was a heck of a lot quieter in that game because I learned my lesson from my first: The more I post, the more I like an idiot/scumguy. Ask Faraday. He knows.

[MafiaMann]

Well the less you post the less likely you are to say anything beneficial to the town i have a similar problem but continue to post for 2 reasons.

1. If i dont post im not helping the town this is a bad tactic for any role because any role would at least want to appear to be helping the town,

2. Much of what someone says as town while may appear scummy at the time reveals a lot at your death (assuming you get lynched for "your scummy" behavior)

Hope this helps

[ckool5000]

Hey, aren't I posting a bunch?... It may not be the best posts, but at least I'm trying.