Open 144 - Near-Vanilla - GAME OVER!

[yawetag]

AndyTony and The Corporation have been prodded. hewitt, hohum, and OccamR all need to be replaced (either stated or never replied to the prod). If any one can help in finding replacements, it would be great. As it is, I have a post in the Replacements thread and have updated my sig to announce such.

[Alduskkel]

I'm replacing dejkha.

Unvote

until I finished reading. Fortunately I started the minute I PM'd yawetag to replace in and the game is not that long (in terms of post length) so I'm already up to Page 9 and am writing notes as I go.

Cheers!

[ODDin]

Mod: I'm voting for Cephrir, not Zer0, as of post 423. And I did remember to unvote this time.

[AndyTony]

Yeah, I'm here

[Alduskkel]

Okay, this post is my summary of my opinions of the game and it's really not cohesive. I've tried to tie it together some but it will still come out jumbled I suspect. Anyway, a long RVS and a lot of theory talk happens but not much else does. AndyTony attracts a bit of controversy but that's about it.

I agree with ODDin 91, and hohum never seems to address this.

AndyTony makes what seems like a case against hohum... then unvotes hohum? I don't get it. If it isn't a case against hohum, as he says in 122, then why does he issue a FoS to hohum?

Regardless, I find it hypocritical of hohum to discourage theory talk in favor of game talk and then go off and talk about theory.

Personally I find the hypothetical scenario of Zer0ph34r claiming scum to be a null tell, based on my meta knowledge of him (which is admittedly not that much).

I agree with AndyTony 130.

ODDin 133 misses the point I think -- I don't believe AndyTony was advocating against discussing meta, just against basing future actions w.r.t. Zer0 claiming scum.

I fail to understand this AndyTony 137 phrase:

means a lot that we're at an understanding

From 143:

I might make a case on [AndyTony] later to see if I notice anything particularly anti-town about his play thus far.

Um, you'll make a case to try and find something anti-Town about him? Don't you mean that you'll try to find something anti-Town about him and

then

make a case? Why AndyTony in particular? Shouldn't this be a general rule for everyone (search for scum tells, if anything substantial is found then make a case)?

148:

Nobody's chasing any tell at this point, so why dwell on it? Watch how [Zer0ph34r] plays the game and then react to it. You keep coming back to it...kind of like picking at a scab, trying to make it rupture. I'm starting to wonder if you're not trying to help make it happen...

??? hohum and to a lesser degree dejkha had already stated that if Zer0 claimed scum then they'd be at least somewhat more suspicious of him, even though it's a null tell for him. So it's fairly relevant. Plus, AndyTony can't be trying to make the situation "rupture", as Zer0 had stated that it's ignorance that pisses him off and AndyTony isn't ignorant.

AndyTony 149 is a good response to this.

Post 155:

I stated why I don't post much in the first day, especially at this point.

I don't recall anyone bringing up this point up to now, not even you.

Snipped from 168:

As long as Pitstop doesn't make a half assed post when he does post, it doesn't matter to me. Obviously I'd prefer it if he's fairly active though.

Going days without posting, while being active elsewhere, will raise suspicion.

The bolded part seems like a "hint hint, don't do this, scum buddy" to me. Coaching, as it were.

Snipped from 170:

we need a different approach than just posting our opinions.

Isn't this the essence of Mafia though?

Also from 170:

I'm also looking at [AndyTony] as scum due to Post 166 where you actually considered me lying about being busy and lazy and lurking. Personally, I think that would be an absolutely pathetic scum tactic to attempt, and considering it is even funnier.

He was just noting a possibility. But I agree, such underhanded tactics are rather unfair and ridiculous, though I have heard of some people who do it anyway.

173:

I'm not liking this AndyTony guy. It's like he thinks he's all knowing. Like Allah or Entertainment Weekly. He's very serious and acts like he is the boss. And if you're going to ask me why, it's your posts. Read them and you'll know.

I don't get this feeling at all. At least provide examples, back up your statements and all that.

177:

This post is to remind me to mention something in a few days and/or a lot of pages.

This bugs me -- why say this in-thread? There's a place for writing these things, namely the Notes link at the top of every mafiascum forum page (fuck, I'm typing this in Notes right now). The Corporation makes a good point in 257:

IMO it's just to push a vague 'I know something you don't know, so don't lynch me'. In fact the actual quote states he will be alive in a few days anyway. A tad assumptive.

Then when questioned further, Cephrir says in 259:

It's not. Like I said, it's not really a huge thing like everyone is making it. It's just something that... might modify the behavior of at least one player. Like seriously, it matters so little that I shouldn't have even bothered mentioning it, it wouldn't have mattered much if I forgot. And of course when I am inevitably forced to come out with it today, The Corporation will attack me over it because it's so non-secret-worthy.

If it's not a big deal, why not just tell everyone? Right now, regardless of you saying it's not a big deal, it was/is rapidly becoming a big deal. Cephrir finally blows the secret in 261. I guess I can understand wanting to keep that a secret from people in order to keep an eye on AT without influencing him too much. But then again it still seems kind of weird to me that Cephrir posted 177 at all instead of stashing it away in his Notes. I'll be coming back to this subject later in this post.

I agree with ODDin 184. Cephrir 194 makes a good point, but on the other hand, as The Corporation notes in 218, AndyTony didn't have any votes on him, so he wasn't

that

easy of a lynch target. It's hard to say; the votes weren't there, but to some degree the suspicion was.

From 204:

I agree with Odd. AT was starting to look like an easy D1 lynch target IMO and I think Pitstop was trying to push the potential wagon there. Good catch. This could be you chainsaw defending AT but there was that little jab thrown in at him at the end. And I don't think AT is scum anyway. Definitely the most solid thing I've seen.

Unvote
Vote: Pitstop

I truly don't feel you agree with ODD, but are simply looking for an excuse to hop on the bandwagon and possibly get me lynched. My vote on AT was said to be an 'easy lynch', but this seems like much more of an easy lynch to me.

What evidence do you have favoring your interpretation, namely bandwagoning on Cephrir's part as opposed to him just agreeing with ODDin? Right now this seems like OMGUS to me.

Cephrir and The Corporation have a bit of a spat starting in the 210s -- personally I side with Cephrir in this as it seemed like The Corporation was forming scum tells around Cephrir already being scum in the first place (a.k.a. tunnel vision) and The Corporation's argument ultimately boils down to "Cephrir bandwagoned on Pitstop" when I think Cephrir had decent reasoning for his vote.

I think Cephrir successfully defends in 266 against ODDin's 265.

280, Zer0ph34r:

Cephrir- I think the arguments against him are valid, however, I find it odd that he doesn't seem to be defending himself too much, but that doesn't mean I find it scummy. [Many people think when I say "odd" I mean "scummy".]

Eh??? I felt Cephrir was spending oodles of time defending himself, many of his posts are purely dedicated to defending against Corp's attacks.

Then there are a lot of short posts between various people and Zer0ph34r. Not much to say, even if Zer0 is admitting to an anti-Town play style; we're hunting for scum, not anti-Town people, even if they are not mutually exclusive.

Then, 339 Cephrir, after Zer0 inexplicably voted for dejkha:

To be fair, dejkha has been uncharacteristically quiet in this game which may result from a disinterest in being scum. But I don't know if Zero has even played with dej before so that still doesn't make any sense.

Theory: Zero is scum with dej and is angry he quit and/or knows why he's quitting?

Regardless, FoS: Zero

That's a real stretch. Why and how would Zer0 know why dejkha was quitting? Plus, we already know that Zer0 isn't exactly the most well-reasoned of people, so his vote sort of fit given what we know of him. Frankly it just seems like a push of an easy wagon, Zer0's. Then, in the post right after AndyTony quickly backs up Cephrir (but this is later retracted).

So AndyTony and ODDin quickly vote for Zer0 after he starts being somewhat annoying. So this raises the question: Is Zer0 an easy lynch being ganged up on by a ODDin-AndyTony-Cephrir scum team (AndyTony being the least likely to be scum there imo, given his later unvote etc.) or are they just Townies who are pissed at him and have nothing better to go on? Something in between? I can certainly understand being pissed at Zer0ph34r, but I just don't think it's worth the lynch.

I don't know, maybe we shouldn't let Zer0 get away with crap even with his meta.

354, Zer0ph34r:

(The Corporation, AndyTony, ODDin, Cephrir) 4 Down, 3 to go. Join the club!

AndyTony, I am 99% you are scum along with one of the other 3 who have voted for me. You seem to be trying to make yourself look like the good guy, which you have done quite well and finding the PERFECT reason to vote for me, which you almost have.

PS: Voting for me will only hurt the town.

9/1-13/14-15-20/12-25-9-14-7

u no thar r only 3 scum rite

Also, big OMGUS here.

359, still Zer0:

The Replacement? That's his name?

Anyway, you want a defense? I don't defend myself so much anymore due to the fact that most players will most likely say I'm scrambling or using a last attempt to stay in the game no matter what my defense is. But I shall try: Pretty much all of my accusations of scum were based off of previous games where I self claim as scum and most of the time, falsely do so. Aside from that, I don't think I've given any sort of suspicious behavior other then not defending myself. If you think dejkha and everyone who voted for me is scum, then why aren't you voting for one of them and instead me? And as far as me telling you to deal with it, you DO have to deal with it. I welcome votes for me, but I don't encourage it. If you want to vote for me go ahead, but it won't get you any closer to winning, at least in this stage. Time to make quick history...

Unvote
Vote: Zer0ph34r

Dammit. Those aren't the only accusations against you (see AT's comment about hypocrisy etc. in 355) and this is an Appeal to Emotion, basically you're throwing a fit here, perhaps to try and gain sympathy. But I can't figure out if you're an angry Townie or a Mafioso... play styles such as these are always hard to read.

Part of me agrees with ODDin 366 thoroughly, but the other part doesn't want to lynch Townies... but on the other hand I don't know Zer0's alignment, though probabilistically it's more likely that he's pro-Town, but I guess you could say that about anyone.

Cephrir continues to push the Zer0 wagon in 378, but I favor AndyTony's approach to Zer0.

379, Zer0ph34r finally explains the dejkha vote by saying that dejkha prefers to be Town and not Scum, thus the lack of dedication is a scum tell for dejkha. Obviously I know dejkha isn't scum though. My question, however, is this: Zer0, where did you get this meta knowledge? How reliable is it? Cephrir, you seem to have this meta knowledge about dejkha too, so my questions for Zer0 here also go to you.

AndyTony makes a good point about Cephrir role fishing in 391. Cephrir replies in 394 with:

Well I didn't mean I wanted [Zer0ph34r] to claim immediately. As in, I'd like to see him run up to L-1 so that he'll have to claim. Which really isn't any more aggressive than placing a vote on him because it says "I would currently prefer to lynch this player if he's not a power role".

Too bad you didn't actually say that, hmm?

MadCrawdad 397 points out a key flaw in Cephrir's post 177 I think. Cephrir replies in 398, which I will in turn reply to as well:

The thing is, though, if your 'Note to Self' was truly to remind you to mention AT's meta, you didn't have a few game days to do so. And you knew it. So why would you wait? Your information would have been much more urgent (and important) than you're claiming.

If I brought that up too early it would become all-but-worthless. Which it did.

Yeah, but a few whole game days when you thought AT might be lynched on Day 1?

When you posted your 'Note to Self,' you must have already had your feeling that AT was going be railroaded, as nothing much happened in the ten-or-so posts between your note and the revelation that you thought AT was going to be wrongfully lynched on D1:

Yeah, absolutely, but it's not like he was going to get 7 votes without me having a chance to say something.

Who was the one who said that once a bandwagon started it was hard to stop and that they wanted to preemptively defend AT? OH RIGHT, YOU DID IN POST 220! Relevant snips:

One person can't necessarily stop a bandwagon once it gets rolling

D1 bandwagons have a tendency to go through no matter what because people don't care enough, so it's best that it was pointed out now rather than when it might be too late.

Cephrir then basically gives up the point in 400, and when the accusee can't come up with a good defense other than "I forget" (actual Cephrir quote) it's a sign of a good accusation, I think.

Cephrir 406:

I stress again - -

-I think a stronger point was the notion of Ceph asking for a role claim from Zero when things built up -


What are thoughts on that?

I don't get how this is scummy. Honestly I'd still like to see him run up to a claim.

Trying to find/out power roles and kill them... isn't that generally a fairly big Mafia goal?

-[Zer0] has outright refused to scumhunt in any non-blatant-OMGUS fashion; therefore he will never be of any use if town, and will never help us find his scumbuddies if he is scum. In fact I wonder if he even reads the thread sometimes. What suspicions he has come up with have been horrifically illogical.

Zer0 is, at the very least, one more player keeping us away from lylo. We can't just ditch part of our numbers advantage like this.

-He will probably, at some point in this game, be lynched, and is dangerous to have around in an endgame scenario; so D1 is the best time to get rid of him while we have less concrete information to go by than we will in later days.

So... we should lynch him because he is going to be lynched? That's circular logic if I've ever seen it.

-Selfvoters deserve to die.

Not really...

Would you really have gone back all those pages to reread your note anyway?

Yes.

If you remembered the note in the first place, what's the point of going back to look at it if you're already reminded of the note, and thus reminded of what the note was reminding you to do? If that makes sense.

If you really wanted to remind yourself, then make an note outside of the game.

Wouldn't work.

Why not?

Answer the question Cephrir...

Pssst. You're a lurker.

I admit I haven't been into this game as much as I should have up to this point, but that doesn't mean I can't suspect others.

But it does mean that you're a hypocrite.

ODDin catches Cephrir in an inconsistency [423] and all Cephrir does is make an Appeal to Emotion and basically says, "Yeah, okay, lynch me, but I'm pro-Town and the following are the scum: dejkha, The Corporation, and Zero/random lurker."[424]

Well lesse here. dej is usually an active player but flaked for no apparent reason, probably dislikes being scum. I've pointed out the connection between him and Zero.

What's to say that dejkha didn't just overload on games/found this game boring and not worth playing? Furthermore, the connection between dejkha and Zer0 is that Zer0 supposedly bussed dejkha, which swings both ways: by accusing dejkha of being scum with Zer0, isn't that also a convenient bus for

you

?

But that all assumes dejkha is scum, but he isn't, since I know his alignment and all that. I'm just pointing out the flaw in the logic.

I suppose "dejkha, Zero, and The Corporation or some random lurker" is more accurate since the latter has the least basis. Yes, that's pure OMGUS but I'm allowed to do that since I'm going to die anyway.

What gives you the right to OMGUS even if you're going to die? OMGUS suspicions aren't sound scum tells at all, thus suspecting The Corporation is illogical, particularly because you originally thought he was newb Town.

438 (Kdub) and 439 (The Replacement) are good points against Khamisa, in terms of her active lurking and not doing anything to help discussion.

Just because no one's held their breath longer than the world record doesn't mean no one's going to try. Humans try to change things, and I'm hoping to make [the game] more exciting.

Uh, yeah, keep up the good work!

444: Cephrir admits to being inconsistent.

So yeah,

Vote: Cephrir

. And God, I'm like Mastin now, aren't I? But I guess after 19 pages of low-medium post length it was time for one long post, yes?

@AndyTony: Is that all you have to say right now?

[The Replacement]

Khamisa, what don't you understand or what don't you get about the Cephrir wagon?

[AndyTony]

Sorry, guys, I had limited access when I came to the site and saw a prod was sent - I quickly posted that I was in the game still but only had a chance to sit and read now.

- - I feel that Ceph's gameplay has been questionable, ansy, and scummy (all in that order).

Questionable ........
He displayed willingness to please the town when it came to being for or against me out of the RVS - - there were grr's and Arg's going my way, and he joined in (yet remindedhimself infront of us to later point out I might be town?) seems like he commited to being for or against me based on majority opinions - - - People pleasing always strikes me as suspicious, and planting reminders like that seems like a attempt to suggest to the town that you're a hard at work towny playing his cards close to his chest

These things were only enough to raise an eyebrow and are interpretive - it's unfair to vote for that, so I remained suspicious.

Ansy............
His defence was very full throttle and was at a level of desparation that I've only seen in L-1 suspects later in the days (I don't mean desperate in a negative way, I mean "heated, more so). It seemed suspicious, like nervous scum REALLY not wanting negative attention so early

Who would, though? - only enough to be a tad more suspicious.

Scummy..........
fishing for the role. No matter how it gets spun, he knew which words to throw out there to coax Zero to claim and it was scummy and manipulative. There is no doubt in my mind that he hoped a claim would come - - the moment he knew the consequences of fishing for it when I brought it up, he got ansy again.

Vote: Ceph

I feel the suspicions are valid, and my opinion on his scum action is more so concrete than something weak and interpretive - - my vote will stay for now.

[Zer0ph34r]

379, Zer0ph34r finally explains the dejkha vote by saying that dejkha prefers to be Town and not Scum, thus the lack of dedication is a scum tell for dejkha. Obviously I know dejkha isn't scum though. My question, however, is this: Zer0, where did you get this meta knowledge? How reliable is it? Cephrir, you seem to have this meta knowledge about dejkha too, so my questions for Zer0 here also go to you. - Alduskkel

I find something very interesting in this. You say that you KNOW Dejkha isn't scum. The only way you could possibly know this is if you were scum because then you would know who isn't scum. Is this the case? Or did I catch you with a whoopsie? And to answer your question, I got my answer from dejkha. He told me likes being town more than scum. This doesn't necessarily mean he is scum, but it's giving some scum points.

[AndyTony]

He's the one replacing Dej - - he's not saying he's scum and knows who isn't he's subversively claiming town.

[Kdub]

Since it looks like Cephrir is going to be today's lynch, I am willing to switch my vote to him. Before that though, I still want to hear Khamisa's opinion on Cephrir rather than just saying that she doesn't understand the case against him. The content of the past few pages make the case fairly clear, and I'm suspicious of her for apparently trying to avoid saying anything about it. If Cephrir ends up being scum, I think there is a decent chance Khamisa is as well.

[Cephrir]

I could try to respond and defend myself and then get lynched, or I could just not put in any effort and still get lynched. Seems like a pretty easy decision to me. Aldus is still scum by the way, although he'll probably cruise through the game based on his apparent alignment since replacements unfailingly get a clean slate for no good reason.

I tried giving up before but that didn't stick. Maybe it'll work this time.

[ODDin]

By the way, I think it'd be wise to wait for the replacements to come in and have a say before anyone hammers. I doubt it will actually change the current course of action (although who knows), but I mostly want to hear what they've got to say on the situation before the night - for future reference, that is.

[The Replacement]

It's also good as keeping replacements from being to catch up and post prevents us from getting a read on them until later in the game and the later we can get reliable reads on players or the easier it is for players to slip into the late stages of the game are both things that will make it harder on the town.

[AndyTony]

See, the difference is, you're

not trying

. You're actively

trying to not try

, actually.

Zero claiming scum is not a tell honestly, it's just him

giving up.

I could try to respond and defend myself and then get lynched, or I could just not put in any effort and still get lynched.

Stop being hypocritical - throwing in the towel doesn't bode well.

And your scum hunting has been this so far:

I think his dejkha vote is frustration at a scumbuddy for quitting.

The scum are Corporation, Replacement, and Zero or some random lurker.

Aldus is still scum by the way.

Dej, Zero, Replacement, Aldus, (me, when it seemed like a favorable idea), and a random lurker who I guess you didn't pick out of the lot as of yet?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ceph is at L-2, I think. In the event he decides to claim another person is scum, or fill the void he set for "some random lurker" - - if everyone else can pop by and give thoughts of the days events as of yet, it would be appreciated.

[AndyTony]

EBWOP - - Dej, Zero, Replacement, Aldus, me, and Corporation* and some random lurkers.

[yawetag]

Seryna has replaced hewitt, effective immediately. Still looking for 3 more replacements (The Corporation has asked to be replaced). Believe me, this is frustrating me as much as it is you.

[yawetag]

Mod: I'm voting for Cephrir, not Zer0, as of post 423. And I did remember to unvote this time.

This has been fixed. I apologize for missing it.

[Kdub]

Since Corporation is being replaced, I guess we won't hear an explanation for the inconsistency I pointed out in 418. What does everyone else make of that? If Cephrir ends up being town, I'm thinking Corp/his replacement would be a good person to investigate further.

[ODDin]

Mod: I'm voting for Cephrir, not Zer0, as of post 423. And I did remember to unvote this time.

This has been fixed. I apologize for missing it.

Erm, as much as I don't want to be a pain in the ass, this hasn't been fixed, at least not in the latest vote count...

[MadCrawdad]

Scummy..........
fishing for the role. No matter how it gets spun, he knew which words to throw out there to coax Zero to claim and it was scummy and manipulative. There is no doubt in my mind that he hoped a claim would come - - the moment he knew the consequences of fishing for it when I brought it up, he got ansy again.

Vote: Ceph

I feel the suspicions are valid, and my opinion on his scum action is more so concrete than something weak and interpretive - - my vote will stay for now.[/area]

AT, what are your thoughts on OccamR's apparent role fishing from earlier on Day 1 (post 255) below?

It's the same thing. When I talk about it, you'll see why I didn't want to, I promise. I'd like to give a hint or something but then it would probably be obvious. If everyone really insists I'll do it now. It's not as big of a deal as it appears to be, but I'd still rather save it.

Are you talking about a role ability you have?

[AndyTony]

I find it hard to tell whether or not he is

fishing

or asking for clarification. At the time that was posted, Ceph was a suspect, so asking for clarification in the sense of "Did you just claim?" (which would aid the suspicion on Ceph) is more so understandable as opposed to "so you're....?".

I feel it would be far too early to pull a stunt like that and a major slip up. We could only really know later (Day 2 later) with more substantial activity and post lynch/nk clarity.

You see, where:

OccamR's post suggests a variable, a 50/50 of "Is he fishing, or is he asking for clarification?"

Ceph has a post where he tries to provoke the very

idea

of claiming to someone who at a time, based on meta, would potentially screw himself over with a scum claim (far more valuable a scum tactic than what OccamR did).

So I would stick with Ceph, "the devil I know" (as in the one with what I feel was a scummier action) and maintain that OccamR's was suspicious. (this is just in my opinion though)

so

Confirm Vote: Ceph
FoS: OccamR

[Zer0ph34r]

Do you all believe that Alduskkel is pro-town, anti-town or mafia?

[ODDin]

I'm neutral on him. I don't find the meta on dejkha so damning. Very very mildly, perhaps, but I want far better arguments before I vote or even FoS someone.

Also, the only way in this setup to be anti-town without being mafia is to act in a stupid manner, which isn't the case with him and wasn't with dejkha either.

Why are you so focused on Alduskkel, though? Where are you going with this?

[ODDin]

Also, AT, why did you feel the need to confirm your vote on Ceph?

[AndyTony]

I've been in a game where someone confirm voted and I remember thinking it was totally bad ass and made a bold point.

Is it more formal than I think it is?

I only ever use it when I want to make a bold statement of "I feel confident my vote is here to stay at this time"

The wagon is building on Ceph, and someone would have to do something rather extreme to seem more appropriate in the scumhunt