Newbie 800 ~ Mafia: The Reality Show (Game Over!)

[ric]

/confirmed

im graduating from college with BA this weekend so i wont be around at all till monday or tuesday

thanks

[ric]

back from graduation. shit was hot.

what does this mean?

8. ric (SE)

Semi-Experienced. You've finished two games, so people know you have an idea of how to play. ~Vi

it seems like a bunch of people are here straight from another game, did something go wrong?

[ric]

good enough for me

vote: cyren

[ric]

excuse me

vote: cyren

[ric]

keep it moving.

who would you rather go up against?

mr freeze


or

bane

[ric]

onion, who/what are you studying this quarter? what are you writing about? im a philosophy major too but im done

[ric]

dukes gotta be more active or theres gonna be replacements to pay

[ric]

why did you other three vote for me? Ric, Sidney, Onion?

i voted to get the ball rolling

Together, this is a pretty null-tell. Though it never rings townie to portray oneself higher in hierarchy than those of your peers (especially when they hold a rope. Even if it's true).

this is a good point but i find it is a truth that relies on a certain political orientation and so i dont think it makes sense to give the rule too much weight....i think this rule diminishes a certain capacity for leadership, which in turn, seems counterproductive to genuine autonomous/independent mafia investigation.

[ric]

nobody hammered, but it was still worth it because it made me laugh

So you WERE trying to get me quicklynched D1 pg 3?

well from reading that it doesnt seem to me like he was really trying to get you lynched but i dont know i could be wrong, he could just be being brutally honest, i mean....how does this fit into your case against onion?

[ric]

we got a poet up in this bitch!

civilians voting each other for bad reasons seems to happen all the time. i feel like cyren may have a halfway decent case against onion considering its page 3 on first day but i dont know, im still unclear about what exactly is going on though

[ric]

gotta disagree with you on that. me likey.

[ric]

cyren

i am a little unclear about what position youre actually taking on onion and what your vote means, as i am a little unclear on anything auditor is writing.

auditor

are you saying that cyren seems mobbed up with that "play in reverse for a true tale told" when you quote cyren voting onion?

[ric]

Ric- my position? I'm scumhunting... What "positions" are you talking about? He was opening me up for a quicklynch on D1 knowing he was doing so and then seem to say, "aw shucks it didn't happen, it was still fun to try though." That doesn't even seem a bit off to you? My vote on Raeil is a random vote because we were in RVS.. If you've been here since November I don't understand what you're confused about...

A) yes it seems a bit off that onion did that, actually pretty off
B) im confused about your vote and your rhetoric. i understand youre investigating for mafia. are you pushing for a lynch? why is this vote happening? is it vote worthy or do you use votes a little more easily than some? do you think onion is mafia because of this or is onion just at/near the top of the list so far? thats what im confused about. you keep saying he did this but i dont see exactly where youre going with it. i say 'youve got a decent case for page 3' you say 'its only page 3' but you do seem pretty adamant. this is what im trying to figure out

[ric]

no need to take the vote off now. if i remember correctly, cyren is at -3 now.

but if its that big of a deal i will

unvote cyren

[ric]

cyren:

are you talking to me about your vote? sorry i didnt realize you werent voting for onion before, my bad. what the fuck, i cannot read lately.

im kind of feeling your case against onion here but he off-hand strikes me as civilian and let me tell you why - some philosophers love to talk and write and just string together arguments even though the argument may not be particularly compelling and then they back it up as much as they can because they have the conviction of their own ability to string together a solid argument (thus the continued vote on you or raeil). sometimes this leads to good consequences because they are onto something but sometimes this can get them into trouble.

of course - this could just be sympathy/empathy for a fellow philosopher

voted for Cyren (023) first,

he calls be brutally honest (058), a complement for philosophers.

A) random vote to get things moving

B) what?

i do think youre a bit suspicious. can you explain your position more on raeil and cyren or is this just a 'hunch and shake information loose' vote?

why ric is trying hard to make Cyren look scum?

where are you getting this from?

haylen

what are cold feet?

auditor

did you get this suggestion from game 790? or there something else there youd like to bring up?

[ric]

preemptory note: i have been reading and typing and chilling for way too long. sorry for the wall of text, i honestly didnt mean to get into it that far but thats what happens when you have an entire day off work. there are people that posted before me and yet, i think, wrote sections for me - ill get to you ASAP but not today. got things to do.

on a second note. i know im not setting the best example by my post below but if the civis could make a concerted effort to refrain from posting rampant walls of text, that would be great, thanks.

Ric - that sounds like you're defending and speaking for Onion. Makes you look suspicious? he knew what he was doing and sacrificing a town instead of putting some effort into scumhunting is rediculous to me. Does that happen a lot in mini/normal/theme games or whatever they're called?

im just being open about what i think. im saying this is what im experiencing from onion. it could just be this but i feel strongly about this. i feel like its only a problem to say something like that when there is a presumption of no-trust. it is my conviction that trust isnt such a bad trait after all in the same way that one cannot be 100% objective, we have to recognize and give subjectivity its proper place (or vice-versa)

just my two cents on trusting people and defending people. ill take anymore questions about my stance on onion if they are more pointed.

i have seen defending people used and have used it effectively in other games on and off this site (this being my 3rd where i didnt get insta-killed or the game didnt insta-end) and in live games. but i have to be honest ive modded more games than ive played and its a totally different experience and so basing theory off of merely watching other players is sweet but not that sweet.

so wait, neferenom - are you cyren? is that what post 89 is about? if this is the case please post with one name only. thanks. it cuts down on confusion on rereads and in the moment.

heres my take on auditor:

when he first did it i encouraged it because i thought he was communicating with somebody, specifically anticollie, through code because he bolded anticollies name which i assumed was like 'ok lets start this code thing now'. i didnt think the reverse slashes were a mistake, just a ploy to make the code less obvious or to layer the code. and so i encouraged it so that as soon as the auditor and whoever i thought his partner would be were talking to each other like this and saying things like 'vote this person' etc etc. i could post my analysis triumphantly the code seemed to be fluid at first too so i wanted to get a handle on it. im sorry if people feel like it was a mistake to keep my mouth shut but i couldnt resist the opportunity. after all, if auditor turned out to be mafia with a partner communicating through code, it wouldve been a sweet thing to catch it so early. i can post the analysis i put together if anybody is interested.

now im comfortable that it is just part of the riddling and method auditor is using. its not that this makes me uncomfortable with auditors role yet per se, just that i think its absolutely a terrible choice because ive already missed things in his posts apparently and its confusing and shields from scrutiny and it isnt to the point. its suspicious to me that auditor should basically lay down the position that hes going to do what hes going to do despite the citys wishes (its not like it is unreasonable request to ask to cut back) and if you cant deal then you cant deal, get out of the game.

however. upon reading anticollies color laden post, as much as the suspicion of code writing is belayed, it is still there to me. especially given the auditor bolding at the beginning of game. i just want to get on record that given the code suspicions i think its possibly anticollie and auditor are taking seemingly opposing stances on each other as a ruse but that i think it highly unlikely. if it was a ruse i feel like it could be an effective play to distance from each other early. again, i do think this unlikely at this point.

onion

heres why i think you are the most suspicious by far despite my 'read' on you. and why you deserve an

FOS: ONION

from me (not a vote because my read outweighs my suspicion at this point). im not sure that had somebody not quickly unvoted cyren that cyren would not still be here. raeil responded within twenty minutes (which, incidentally gives me a super clean read on raeil). admittedly i DIDNT ask the question of why you voted because A) i was interested in what you were studying and B) i just didnt notice it at first. i was mulling over what was going on in 790 because the topic was kind of focused on my play, my mafia partner was playing well and it was down to the wire. then cyren and others started to go after you similarly to how i wouldve so i dropped it from my own personal agenda, it wasnt imperative to mention at that point besides the idea that you were suspicious for the aformentioned reasons

heres the big one though, the key that cyren put under the mat after you laid out your reason for -1.

my intention was not to lynch Cyren, but to provide the scum a chance to point themselves out.

Putting me at L-1 to see if scum would hammer IS intention to Lynch

and while i do think tradeoffs happen and are somewhat acceptable, trading off day one page 3 makes no sense. there is not enough information out there and i agree with haylen that especially a new player could too easily walk into lynching someone. hell, ive seen players who know what theyre doing and who are civis lynch people just because theyre tired of arguing.

like i said, im still not voting you. and if you think calling you suspicious (like i was earlier) and agreeing with the person who was after you yet simultaneously vouching for my read on you is "allying" then so be it but i think evidence and character suggests otherwise. also, allying can work for good. just saying.

[ric]

wow. this game moves. its a refreshingly quick pace.

wall of text (i think/hope my last for now). prepare yourself.

so people are worried about my unvote but i gotta be honest i dont see why its suspicious. i didnt do it out of feeling pressure i did it out of understanding that people were rattled by the onion incident and i didnt see the harm of either keeping my vote on or unvoting but somebody did and i saw their point of view and do think its legitimate (i used to think that way as a hold over from live games - vote claims during live discussion can be nerve wracking) and so i did it. the point of view that seemed to be implicitly expressed by sideney was this: voting is important, especially after what just happened, dont treat votes like candy. this makes sense. i dont see how this adds up to panic especially how i remarked that there was no need - because there isnt/wasnt. panic to me would look like 'oh my god youre right i love cyren - unvote' or something like that yall feel me?

and then theres this bit that some of you have brought up in such a way that i guess i havent been being clear about my position on onion, echo, sydeney and i think others are asking about this. duke strikes me as clean

despite my suspicions

. ive never changed my grey position.

yes it seems a bit off that onion did that, actually pretty off

i do think youre a bit suspicious. can you explain your position more on raeil and cyren or is this just a 'hunch and shake information loose' vote?

the reason why my suspicion has grown should be obvious. because hes making terrible points/arguments (some good ones though).

for example. in post 83 he says this

A)he voted for Cyren (023)...B)(indicating that it is either a random vote with no value or a scum vote)...C)so what i get from this is that he is trying to act town. both sides try to act town though, so it is hard (not sqeezey) to to tell the difference.

A) ive already explained this as a vote to move the game
B) ok
C) so, especially given B (and A), ric cyren and raeil are especially suspicious because they COULD be mafia because onion cant know for sure that they cant be "acting town" (an idea that has its own special problems) or that they could actually be civilians/goodies. and this applies to them and no one else.

Ric defends me against Cyren (058) and generally attacks him

i think youre saying this because sideney said this and you need help right now. explain how asking for clarity from cyren is attacking cyren. i understand why it could be, in theory, but explain why what i did was attacking cyren. (i touch on this when i address sideney below)

Echo, you quote me out of context, how scummy of you.

i dont know whether or not onion noticed that echos position on onion actually make sense or whether he was trying to paint it as not making sense as a sort of OMGUS move. according to the quotes, onions belief about he was doing were inconsistent. but the kicker is that echo (albeit aggressively) asks for clarification "Why are you so indecisive about the nature of the person who might have hammered?" and then onion goes 'only mob people do what you do'

Cyren's lurking, here's something for her....

Putting me at L-1 to see if scum would hammer IS intention to Lynch.... No matter how you phrase it you were not just sacrificing town but information as well. Like I said to Haylen willingly lynching a town instead of someone you actually THINK might be scum is really bad to me.

you incriminate me under the assumption that i think you are town? yet i clearly stated my suspicion of you only 2 posts earlier

if i remember correctly she says this because you seemed to hold an inconsistent position (if i remember correctly) and because it seems pretty fucked up that you would be so cavalier about your supposed, weak suspicion towards cyren and raeil to trade THIS early in game (despite the flaws of new players, even accepting your own postured response to anticollie (i think) regarding the supposed unliklihood of that happening and then still maintain that cyren is suspicious basically because shes heavily suspicious of you. and did it ever cross your mind that cyren actually isnt around and not just lurking?(sorry if the sequencing of this last bit sounds odd, the pieces are all there)

this is poisonous play and its very very understandable how onion could warrant a vote. and, for the record, im not holding that against anybody. hes #1 on my list aswell but i happen to honestly think hes just a philosophy prick trying to spit mad game and falling flat on his face and that is why i have not voted him.

sideney

i wish you were a little more involved. you seem to be laying low in a pretty big way. and that makes me nervous. can you say a little more about the rolefishing for echo and more about your vote on onion please?

i feel like sideney is acting second most suspiciously and heres why. pops in. writes 15 words pops out. do you live in italy are you just visiting? im a huge florence freak myself and i could understand why you could be distracted but i just think popping in and out with little explanation is bad news for the town, no?

and to answer this "quickly unvotes cyren then fos onion" being a "distancing" move - i dont get that particular line of thought and how it makes sense that the two events are connected, especially after i unvoted because i thought you were uncomfortable. please explain it to me.

one more reason why youre suspicious to me is because you said this:

and why ric is trying hard to make Cyren look scum?

and then i asked you where that was coming from and you said nothing. and then....all that stuff i said before. its like coming in and kind of attacking and then not explaining isnt actually helping to get to the bottom of whos sweet and whos not

regarding auditor:

oh yeah i had one more thing to say about auditor that i typed out on .txt file right after my last post.

posting up in poetry gives you impunity in one of two key areas. the first area is that players are able to understand and attack position and the second being that players are able to understand and attack the language that one posits their position with. language is important and you (auditor) basically get a virtual pass because poetry is meant to decieve, its meant to hint and faint and its meant to embellish. and this is too much flexibility to A) accomplish something concrete and B) not remain far too dangerous to trust on almost any level

auditor has already said that i have missed stuff in his posts and haylen has said that she is worried about it. i disagree with the stance raeil has taken about auditors poetry for said reasons.

haylen

what do you think about onion?

anticollie

what do you think about sideney?

auditor

what do you think about echo?

in sum, as an endpiece to this monstrous post

raeil seems incredibly goody especially given the unvote when onion went -1 - goody
im glad haylen is more active - medium
i wish echo well on tests but want a little more activity - medium
cyren seems mostly fine to me, maybe a little aggressive for my tastes but a bang smash job - mostly goody
anticollie seems reasonable, if a little uninvolved (mostly in the first few pages) - medium goodie

[ric]

cyren and raeil

heres the problem with walls of text (and then ill use these points to explain why too much aggressiveness can grow to be a problem):

walls of text consume much time and energy. not only to read (and write) but to respond to. this has implications for whether or not people feel up to playing the game and how much useful investigating can be really be done. after all - dialogue (not monologue) drives the game forward. im not ripping down the power of a well put together case and sometimes it seems there is no other choice but to make a long case and thats fine. but im just saying it can be counterproductive or at least grind things to a halt like throwing a big rock in the water. a few humonguous posts and people sometimes just stop playing or people just dont read them because its a game and they may see it as a waste of time/energy.

walls of text also set the agenda because when people are talking to you you respond. well in a wall of text theres probably going to be a lot to respond to. and when people boil down points made in walls of text there is a high chance of misrepresentation etc which creates its own sets of problems aside. so what youre doing when you post in huge walls of text is that you set the agenda which can be fine but can also backfire for other investigations because it systemically forces people to deal with only/mostly what walls of text are bringing to the table.

same thing with aggressiveness. if gone overboard it sets a kind of....selfish agenda that can be counterproductive in dialogue. imagine that you think person x is really super guilty. and so of course you pursue that to the ends of the earth. well because youre pursuing it other people will probably catch on (especially if youre succeeding in making somebody look guilty) and so maybe that person just sucks at defending themselves. and so then people are like 'ok chill we should back off and pursue other things' its tough to do and doesnt happen because the last 6 pages have been people talking about this one thing. and so either the aggressor gets lynched for 'seeming too aggressive to be civi' (which can be a bit shortsighted in my opinion) or somebody gets lynched because they look guilty, and that might not have anything to do with actual mob ties (which is dumb). and maybe your aggressiveness played too much part in the politics of voting, maybe you had really shitty reasons etc but such a great attack that either no one could point out how wrong you were without risking their neck by your aggression or maybe no one realizes when an aggressive player is going over the line or is just stylishly wrong

ive seen rational civilian people vote for other people because of their huge posts and aggressiveness and ive seen people get voted out real quick because of it. now thats not a threat as some people may try to twist that last sentence into, im saying this is wisdom thats coming from hard results and mistakes.

anyway, thats my reasoning for why one should try to reduce walls of text and mitigate aggressiveness. im not saying either are always bad. just that one should be aware of how theyre affecting the game. there are certainly times to be aggressive but there are also times to cool the fuck out.

id also like to comment on the 'dont vouch for people EVER' position you have, cyren. if youre a results based person, which it seems like you may be, then i have seen people vouch for others completely in the dark with excellent results and have done it myself. not only that but

by sharing such information as to who we think is guilty OR innocent and why, we move forward in our collective objective.

after all, we all do kind of do this privately anyway. making it public is perhaps risky but i have enough conviction in my read to not vote onion despite how incredibly suspicious i feel towards him and of course i want to make this public because i do feel strongly about it. one thing honesty does is it leaves you naked. if im wrong that sucks for me but i would hope that the city has a strong enough sense of justice to proceed correctly, and if i have to die by town edict if onion gets lynched and turns up mafia then that sucks for me but would i make the same choice to vouch in another game? yeah probably if i believed this strongly.

i

almost

feel that strongly for raeil because of his onion -1 action. i feel real strongly for onion at this point because i have a personal experience to help inform me. and, to sort of precounter an objection you may have: if you want a mini-lesson on subjectivity vs objectivity and why both deserve a place, i can post it or pm it to you (if its legal) but not here in this post. its already long enough.

oh yeah id be remiss if i didnt mention the contents of this post as another reason to persuade auditor to entirely stop posting in *verse* - its time and energy consuming and is too dangerous to trust etc etc (like i said before in my last post)

[ric]

cyren & raeil

one more thing, sorry. also think about how other non-new players sometimes play multiple games at once - what if there were walls of text in every game you were playing? pretty bothersome and loathsome, no?

[ric]

no surprise, it actually kind of reinforces the point.

what is this EBWODP? and i think theres another like EBWOP or something floating around here...

[ric]

went back and read my longest verse. It took me less time to read then your "short" wall of text. By its nature, if it is put plain and simply verse is both more pleasing to read through, faster, better comprehended because people cant just skip over things, and can actually explain something better then simply saying it.

A) yeah and thats a problem of the typical wall. it doesnt alleviate the fact that when you riddle through text and verse it takes double and triple the energy to find out what youre saying and even then can be missed. as youve already told me, i guess ive missed things already and other people are mentioning that it sucks to wade through it. the 'nature of verse' vs prose is certainly debatable and i think youre dead wrong about being "better" comprehended and "better" for explanation.
B) thanks for coming back down to earth though
C) i hope you dont save verse for when you have to say something important. maybe both but please dont leave important points inside the verse and untouched on in a real explanation.

[ric]

oh shit i missed this somehow.

"I hate walls of text, heres a wall of text telling you about how much i hate them/telling you to trust me because i say so."

nope. never said that, please dont misrepresent what im saying. i said

anyway, thats my reasoning for why one should try to reduce walls of text and mitigate aggressiveness. im not saying either are always bad. just that one should be aware of how theyre affecting the game. there are certainly times to be aggressive but there are also times to cool the fuck out.

if you feel an explanation regarding my position on expediency is merely meant to gain trust then i challenge you to come up with something better than a post that merely jabs at the ribs in order to prod someone into doing something that you can try to make look suspicious....or whatever the fuck you are doing

[ric]

just to let everyone know i have a full schedule coming up and sunday is probably the first day i will be able to post anything and sunday is iffy, im on call at work. just saying.

auditor

while i dont understand the train of thought, i understand the sentiment. i do get that sort of superior aire sometimes but i thought it might be helpful to fully understand more about what i was saying because cyren seems so against it and while im feeling cyrens position on it, i just think theres some useful ish below the surface, you know? and a little more explanation on something like that may be useful info or something, you know? but yeah i get what youre saying even though i dont mind that it comes out. and if i think i know what im talking about and have helpful background info sometimes i make that ish available and dont mind explaining shit that would be helpful, i think im pretty good at it and i think i have good grasp of some key game skills, thats all. again, sorry if it seems condescending or bossy, i truly do work on this both in game and in life but its part of my personality

Ric:
Why do you seemingly change opinion on the onion fiasco - you still seem determined to defend him but you also advocate him as scum?

read post 118 (and below) please and if you have more specific questions, please ask them and ill get to them on sunday (or friday morning if im lucky). i feel like this has been asked and answered.

look at this example (my first game here): this covers everything ive discussed with cyren and raeil and part of the reason why im vouching for onion (and, incidentally, in my own arguments against kairyuu discusses some of the theory ive been talking about here)

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=125

(luna louise and lunar tick are the mob here)

go to page 6. kairyuu joins the game from page 6 to page 9, is a complete dick who burys himself in a hole when myself and others point out how much of an idiot hes being and then it seemed like we had no other choice BUT to vote for him despite the fact that he was civi and everyone who voted for him was a civi. ironically/incidentally, i was skimming the boards recently and saw that kairyuu is still a dick. it can be a cover style of play, which has to be taken into account, but he is still the same dummy whether or not he is actually mafia. i have seen dickheads do this at other sites and in live games as well, hence my simultaneous offense and defense of onion: philosophy prick.

ALSO

like ive said before,

i KNOW (and am friends with) people who are

exactly

like onion and have played games with them.

it may be suspicious that i sometimes live in grey area but that doesnt a sicilian make. i have to tell people what i see, even if it amounts to somewhat of a contradiction, and if im right it feels good as a validation of my instincts. at the same time i dont want to be JUST defending onion

for the record as of right now my top 3 suspicious list
1 onion (by far for stated reasons)
2 sideney (medium but pretty good amount for stated reasons)
3 auditor (undecided but still well below sideney. auditors kind of....jabbing combined with the resistance about the poetry/verse thing just strikes me as confrontational without a point trying to whip up something, feel me? i will repeat that this suspicion level is "WELL BELOW" sideney at this point)

[ric]

have a good weekend everybody

[ric]

got a day off, my friend is getting married today!

I have seem many players like yourself attempt to poorly communicate this feeling. What you have done here is enthralling- and I don't know why.
PS: EBWODP: Edited By Way of Double Posting.

thanks and thanks.

in 053 i neglected the possibility that a a pro-town could somehow know Cyren was scum and hammer him. it is such an unlikely possibility that i didn't think of it at the time. none the less, it is possible and so was added to the theory later as stated above.

This is bat-shit insane.
You're making the arguement that is it plausable for someone with pro-town interests to sucessfully build a case for a lynch, and then cast that lynch in 53 posts?
With all due respect, I disagree.

can someone explain to me whats going on here. im unclear on what is being said, like what is the point of contention? 53 posts? huh?

eventually if we are done with questioning on the last day and he is still top dog then i would be more then happy to vote his way. Plus if he does come out scum we can always come back to you.

right. well. i just hope if that happens we can proceed level headedly, even if i do have a huge target on my back and i do end up getting snuffed, i just want my perhaps last day to not be lynch fest. i just want a day in court if we do indeed lynch onion and onion is mobbed up. a little pro-bono representation would be nice too i am innocent and i just dont want everyone executing me in the first 5 minutes of the day so i have a legit chance to come with some compulsion.

is auditor post 140 a call for academic credentials? word?

i'll start with ric's post a page ago. first, repeatedly asking Cyren for justification for his vote is an attack against him because its purpose is to see if his vote is scummy or not. it is by no means a bad thing because that's what we are here to do.

no, sorry, the purpose of asking cyren for clarification was to get a better understanding of where cyren stood, if you and i are referring to the same questions

A)I think I am insulted....B)I understand this game is largely perception, but if they do something scummy and I call them out on it they were scummy to begin with....C)Also I've stated this elsewhere in this thread, people will play in styles you don't like. You have to deal with it....D)Play styles can't really be analyzed like that. I'm agressive to a point, yes, but I'm not over agressive....E)However you're not vouching for Onion you WERE infact defending him. Only scum will know who is town....F)I just can't be persuaded to back off Onion based on What If scenarios....G)Also could you cut back a llittle on the foul language please?... H)Also "even if it amounts to being a contradiction, if I'm right" If your contradicting your right either way aren't you?

A)
B)so if YOU percieve something and think it suspicious enough to call out it really IS super suspicious? and if no one else agrees with you then they are all wrong and you are right because you are the arbiter of what is? seems like flawed reasoning considering people arent perfect, there is no perfect way to play the game and the game requires team work.
C)thats fine. i do deal with it. that doesnt mean aggression doesnt warrant a bit of suspicion (see below)
D)playstyles can be analyzed, sure. i dont know what you mean with that. i never said you were "over aggressive" just that you should watch yourself. aggression seems to easily turn into over aggression
E)it depends on what you mean here. was i truly "defending" onion? firstly im not entirely sure what you mean. secondly all i was doing was saying 'look guys, ive got this feeling and its pretty strong and this is what i think, take it or leave it but know that it means something to me and i think it should mean something to you and this is why and this is where it comes from' id like to refer you to game 790 post 110 by ether http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=100
where she explains her read on lifiea chancelot. this happens all the time in live games because you cant pick apart peoples text in live games and its harder to make someone look suspicious based on the words theyre using. anyway ether vouches for lifiea from the start and is 100% correct like many vouches are
F)thats fine in one sense. but correct me if im wrong but pretty much all mafia investigation is, is one giant 'what if' scenario (aside from your own role)
G) if a mod tells me to i will. until then, chill and learn to deal with things you dont like.
H)in a literal sense, youre almost right except for youre misquoting me on an important word or two but seriously i think it is obvious that what im saying is that if onion ISNT mafia then im validated. but nice try

I don't ask questions that can't be answered

well i mean, come on. any question can be answered. this doesnt mean someone who is asking legit questions isnt controlling the agenda with aggressive play. and, as i noted a few posts ago, where i summarize who i think is medium-->goody and why, i think aggressive play warrants a tad bit of suspicion. did you read post 118? did you read/skim post 133 (or the link in 133)? i have good reason to be suspicious of aggressive play for aggression sake. but, to reiterate, its not a lot of suspicion.

another thing. howre you going to be justifiably suspicious of anything if no one can knock any one elses playstyle? see what im saying? i believe someone else touched on this before this post

[ric]

catch up haylen!!!!!!

[ric]

welcome new dudes sorry for post carnival on page 5

haylen:

wish she had more content but i understand how that can go when computers fuck you (prescient remark) but my read is the same

vote: sydeney

for everything said before and because with post 173 sydeney seems to really just like to turn super defensive when others point even the slightest finger at him but still enjoys pointing fingers at others. but really my main reason is that

there is no case building.

which seems to be the most important part of actually getting things done, you know? and theres not much said so sydeney hangs back, waits for things to happen attempting to slide by unnoticed

echo:

im glad echo pursues his own line of inquiry. my read is the same. i disagree with echo and onion about anticollie though and heres why: anticollies style makes me a tad uncomfortable but i buy that he is an analyzer who chillaxes for a while and then comes in with kind of a....surgical post. its a little suspicious to me that cyren and anticollie should treat this last while as a foregone conclusion but this was before replacements and, it makes sense if anticollie is a chillaxer that he should wait to see how people handle the last remaining bit.

cyren gets a slight pass but doesnt get as much of a pass as anticollie because cyren seems to have done this: ive made a difference in the game by getting the ball rolling on onion, now im just gonna sit back and reap the rewards. which is like cyren working in the mud with all of us and doing some good work and then going to take a 3 hour break at the gatorade cooler, you know? its like were trying to get this stuff done. so cyren is a little more suspicious to me but not much. sorry for the construction metaphor but you get it, right?

but the thing is with anybodys semi-absence right now is that its like the beginning of summer. its been great here in seattle and so i can only imagine how sweet other places have been. a little northern hemisphere centric, but its all good

being ok with a contradiction in his logic is odd, and his oft used defense of 'it depends on what you mean by defend/attack' is getting old quick. sofist.

well i wasnt defending you in the sense that i was pointing out where cyren may have gone wrong or where i think you were absolutely right and so i dont really see it as a "defense" in that way. but yeah i guess i was defending you by way of character vouch but thats not really "defending" you in the court room sense. thats more like 'yo chill with this because it feels like a mistake' you know? i feel like its not a logical contradiction. but even if it was a contradiction: could that, on purely its own merits be held against me? were human beings we do this stuff all the time, and i think it makes sense to have an even higher frequency of the kind of 'im not sure' inconsistency in a game where all you know is what people are talking about and what your role is and what you think theory wise.

[ric]

sofistry!

[ric]

heres what ive written so far on sydeney:

sideney (medium but pretty good amount for stated reasons)

sideney
i wish you were a little more involved. you seem to be laying low in a pretty big way. and that makes me nervous. can you say a little more about the rolefishing for echo and more about your vote on onion please?
i feel like sideney is acting second most suspiciously and heres why. pops in. writes 15 words pops out. do you live in italy are you just visiting? im a huge florence freak myself and i could understand why you could be distracted but i just think popping in and out with little explanation is bad news for the town, no?
and to answer this "quickly unvotes cyren then fos onion" being a "distancing" move - i dont get that particular line of thought and how it makes sense that the two events are connected, especially after i unvoted because i thought you were uncomfortable. please explain it to me.
one more reason why youre suspicious to me is because you said this:

and why ric is trying hard to make Cyren look scum?

and then i asked you where that was coming from and you said nothing. and then....all that stuff i said before. its like coming in and kind of attacking and then not explaining isnt actually helping to get to the bottom of whos sweet and whos not

i mean, hell. cyren said this soon after that ^^

sideney
REALLY? You're not going to respond to ANYTHING that has to do with you or ANY of the questions asked of you?

echo says this

Sideney has moved substantially higher in my list. He says a full week before the end of the day phase

I think i will stay with my onion-ric dynamic pair scum until this day end, so don't think i will write much more ... and i vote onion because he seems more near to a lynch this day.

which sounds to me like saying "I don't care if we get any new evidence in the next 7 days, I'm still going to vote onion because he was the scummiest a week into the game and he's got the most votes." He posted his suspicion on the onion-ric pair in (78), a week into the game, then voted 2 days later.

and while sydeney seems to have abdicated his position it seems more like responding to the political wind than it does building a case

vote: sydeney for everything said before and because with post 173 sydeney seems to really just like to turn super defensive when others point even the slightest finger at him but still enjoys pointing fingers at others. but really my main reason is that there is no case building. which seems to be the most important part of actually getting things done, you know? and theres not much said so sydeney hangs back, waits for things to happen attempting to slide by unnoticed

i thought id vote because now, if ever, was the best time now that i wasnt sidetracked in defense i got to post who i thought seemed most suspicious and while youre still up there (maybe a little less though) sydeney is also way up there and so id figure to vote sydeney because i still trust you and it didnt make sense to not vote sydeney, especially that we only have a limited time. something i totally didnt realize for most of this first day

im still a little confused about the contention between anticollie and onion regarding post 53....

im not entirely sure whats being said here either:

Under no real situation would this "setting up a D2 lynch" be... harmful to the town, unless we decide to kill someone based upon a town reveal- which is deliciously dumb

like whats a "town reveal"? a mass claim? and how is it deliciously dumb to include a mass claim? or are we talking about a cop claim and this is a little more theoretical?

raskol & nikanor

whats your take on cyren, haylen and echo?

raskol

could you expand your take on sydeney? whats so suspicious that hes even more so than onion in places?

[ric]

You're voting him because you trust us? That's not good. We could easily be trying to throw you off track, you've gotta be careful.

I wrote a pretty long post regarding sideney. If you've got questions regarding the points I make there, I'd be more than happy to answer them. Feel free to disagree but please actually engage what I've already said.

no im writing to onion there. sorry if its unclear. he asked for clarification on my sydeney vote, did you not see this? for info on my read to onion and why im ok trusting him read my huge walls around page 5 and post 118 and then note the reason for the sydeney vote in the last 2 posts i have before this one.

youre right. it was 330 AM and i guess i missed that stuff, my bad

oh yeah and please dont put my name into a quote that i did not write, thank you

[ric]

Say one person has a 40% chance of being scum and the other has a 50% chance. The person with a 50% chance will get a "better score" from the left hand side, but this can still be off-balanced by the right hand side if the difference there is big enough. Of course, we can't know exactly what the numbers are, but this is the kind of reasoning we have to use based on our best judgment of what they are.

now im not very good at math, but one problem with your diagram seems to be getting to the point where one is labelling players with percentage points. how do you add anybody up to 40 or 50% when there are like 10 of us left? of course, i dont really understand whats going on at all with this but it seems like this graph/equation cant really be used to justify any sort of decision, or cant really be used with any precision to do....anything

Haylen still hasn't given us her big long analysis post, or much of anything else for that matter. Since D1 started, she's had 20+ posts, maybe two of which have anything to do with this game

kind of agree but it seems like life has just happened to haylen and that is unfortunate but i do buy that she forgot to cntrl-c her last post. youre right that she hasnt said much though but my read on her is the same - medium. if she had posted her big post and not gotten screwed over i feel like we may be thinking differently, thats all

I don't mind if i get lynched, because either my lynch or an onion lynch we'll give us many information. At least i can watch you and enjoy all this professors analyze each others all the commas the are writing in the speech

what? disregarding the questionnable content of this post: you read mobbed up like crazy dude! and with your last two posts (this one and 209) its like youre trying to hide in the shadows and influence what is going on but now that the sun is out youre stretching your back saying 'aaahhh whatever, you can kill me, not a big deal' but it seems super mobbed to me when you continue to push for a lynch of your vote-rival. you WANT onion lynched. thats not such a bad thing in itself but pulling the wool over peoples eyes and pretending that 'whatever is good for the city' is your motivation does seem like a problem and definitely adds to my suspicion of you. you got your unvote result and now youre pushing for the result that is most safe for you and most likely to happen, an onion execution.

anticollie

could you answer this question, please? i didnt see a response after i posted

im not entirely sure whats being said here either:

Under no real situation would this "setting up a D2 lynch" be... harmful to the town, unless we decide to kill someone based upon a town reveal- which is deliciously dumb

like whats a "town reveal"? a mass claim? and how is it deliciously dumb to include a mass claim? or are we talking about a cop claim and this is a little more theoretical?

could you also answer my question about whats going on with you and onions contention over post 53? onion mentioned something about post 53 and then you were like 'i call bullshit something something couldnt have happened in 53 posts' and i read that and i was like 'what?'

echo

i feel like anticollie has already been fairly surgical in his ish already. i feel like he picks his battles. i just hope im not wrong about his alignment. to me he reads medium-goody.

[ric]

raskol

wait whats your case? why is haylen more suspicious to you than sydeney or onion? i shouldve asked this earlier....shit

haylen

wait what? youve lost it 5 times? what do you mean 'lost it'?
please write it out on a text file and then save the text file. this increases my suspicion of you

sydeney

youre not really "pushing" for a lynch, though. youre just telling people what you want them to do with as few words as possible, feel me? thats the point im making about being in the shadows, thats why you seems so suspicious as to deserve a vote

nikanor, what are your thoughts?
welcome, lynch

[ric]

oh....i was on here and reading the last few pages and going to post my comments but my girlfriend wants to watch planet earth before bed. ill get to this tomorrow. im on call in the morning and not working at night.

http://www.freeonlineepisodes.net/watch ... -for-free/

look halfway down the page and enjoy

[ric]

she fell asleep

there is a lot of activity in this one. goddamn.

raskol

clarify the post below please. what is spamming the thread with "goatse"??

Player B claims scum and spams the thread with goatse (we'll assume that goatse-spamming is a nulltell which an troll townie or troll scum would be equally likely to do, but is super anti-town because it makes people want to avoid looking at the thread).

A) i dont think because sydeneys performance in game has been consistent doesnt mean hes any less suspicious for what hes doing, given his specific moves. but you do say its just his meta (although i havent checked this yet, i will though before monday) and so considering this, sydeney has gone down in suspicion for me a bit. what hes saying, though, what hes

DOING:

i cant ignore blowing in the wind and poking without explaining, etc.
B) haylens acted suspiciously but i think you have too (not counting the suspicion i had for auditor). what is LESS suspicious about sydeney? i understand the meta thing. but look at the moves hes made this game. and you think haylen is more vote worthy?
C) its suspicious to me that you should choose points like haylens not looking for who replaced who as somesort of illuminating action given the present circumstances. actually pretty damn suspicious. its like your grasping at straws yelling and screaming for the lynch. i understand that its nearing the end and you purportedly think you have a clean shot at haylen but trying to frame not looking at replacements as a sort of tell smells either desperate or blindly zealous. i mean you are being reeeaally aggressive, and focused on this one purpose, it seems. if you could connect the non-look to something else substantial i feel like you may have something worth some attention but as of right now its like youre trying to manufact the appearance of guilt where there is little, especially given how nikanor points out that it was last day in her other thread. you noticed what she was posting but NOT that it was last day?????

actually, this is so suspicious to me that im going to

FOS: raskol

and promise to review the last few pages tomorrow (friday) or sunday. perhaps a change in vote is coming from me, i have to review what you were saying about haylens supposedly fallacious move against you. maybe i agree or youve got something valid there. but if not then ill have to reassess the last couple pages entirely (which, for the record, isnt necessarily for or against you personally)

haylen

A) i feel what youre saying about the auditor-raeil connection but i think thats just one of the downsides to making all your posts poetry like that, hes just saying some of that to flesh it out and make the rhythms work.
B) Sods Law is that you will lose data when your computer goes down? wierd law....
C) i empathize with your computer problems but i really do feel like your lack of content has been suspicious. its not even that you were posting in other game(s). i cant put my finger on it but....maybe its just that in 11 or so pages the best case youve got so far ends at like page 5 and now basically reads like a conveniently defensive extension
D) still, though i dont think youre super suspicious. life happens and someone who is really aggressive is going after you and that player did just happen to replace into auditors spot (i think)

Gasp. A person wants to spend more time posting in a thread in which the deadline is that day!

nice catch, sir

A)Raskol picked the arguments he could win and passed on the ones he didn't think he could. now he's picking up speed against Haylen.
B)Haylen, it is unlikely that lurking is WIFOM because otherwise accepted practices like Lynch-All-Lurkers would not be so popular.

A) what arguments is he passing on?
B) while im not sure exactly what is being said here, it seems like youre (onion) committing the appeal to popularity fallacy. people do dumb things en mass all the time.
i agree with your feelings about haylens absence/big post

you don't think Haylen forgetting who replaced who should be used against Haylen?
If so, I disagree. Bringing up the first post of the topic only takes one click from any page you're on - clicking the "1" or the topic title. Saying you don't know who replaced who so you don't extend your argument to the person who replaced sounds either like laziness, which can be anti-town, or trying to avoid plotholes in your argument, which is scummy

all due respect, i disagree with you here. i dont see how not going to check to see who has replaced who is particularly suspicious in this instance. raskols been going after haylen pretty hard. she fights back because raskol is being kind of unreasonable and very aggressive - they literally have a post war where its like every other post, haylen vs raskol for a couple pages....it just doesnt seem suspicious at all that she should forget who replaced who. i agree that it

can

amount to something but i dont see that here at all and i find it a little suspicious of you to go with raskols point here. i feel like raskols trying to manufact this point into something when it is truly nothing right now and youre going along with it for some reason

for the record

i dont trust the wiki at all.
i am a tad suspicious of anticollie for not expounding on his last ish, especially since it seems like the situation with the logic has gotten worse. its like....dropping in to note the danger of the situation and then letting it happen is like trying to position oneself as a steward of the town and then just going to get drunk under the tree with the hot gypsy women. if youre that ill, you better spit fire or go home with your head down, you know?
at the same time. the last few pages have been pretty painstaking to follow especially given the post rapidity so an absence is kind of understood. but if you disappear for too long its gonna start seeming too suspicious

[ric]

how was everyones 4th? we were like....400 yards from the fireworks barge on the lake. ash was raining onto us. it was sweet. and the fireworks/music choreographers did a real good job. back to business!

sideney

youre not going to claim? why wouldnt you claim? i dont understand this. but yes, you do seem super suspicious. pretty. fucking. suspicious.

raskol

i read through the posts and couldnt find the exact thing i was going to reconsider and didnt include it in my notes because i thought it would be obvious but i couldnt find anything specific that i thought was a 'tell' or anything like that. i do find suspicious your seeming attempt to manufact evidence against haylen. but i think youve spent the last while of the day cycle well.

question: what do you think about cyren/lynch?

I'll votehop to someone else on Monday if it is apparent the sideney lynch is going nowhere.

can you talk to us a little about why this is the case for you? what scenarios do you look forward to with an execution elsewhere?

onion

thats pretty disgusting about that goatse thing. i can see where you say that he doesnt discuss everything. is this suspicious to you? is that you brought it up? i gotta say its not suspicious to me. just saying.

haylen

thanks for being open. have any of your opinions changed since the beginning of the game? you didnt post much content but now you are much more active and i was just wondering what has changed for you.

(ps haylen -

my mother is the type to take on too much work. her life isnt in shambles and she feels rewarded in her work (sort of) but she is way too stressed out. dont let it happen to you. dont work the 80 hour week. dont take on too much stuff like your self worth depended on it. find something else to do besides work. just some advice from a dude whos mother works waaayyyyyyyyy too much and never stops taking on tasks. it shows in her quality of life. trust me. one.

)

Since Haylen has given advice to other players on how to play the game, which means she's pretty confident about her skill at this game, I completely expected Haylen to have at least looked to find out who the replacement is and extended her argument to cover the new player in her post.

this is fine to me and i think your view that she shouldve looked is fine but in this case it doesnt seem to amount to something suspicious and its a bit suspicious that this should be used against her as a bolstering of raskols attempt to cast suspicion on haylen, so it looks suspicious to me and so does supporting it. i dont want it to amount to anything more then i feel it deserves and so maybe i shouldve said something more like 'we should watch out about where we take this piece of 'evidence'' - maybe thats more succinct/accurate (i DO find it suspicious though). i mean. i dont feel like youve made an error in reasoning.

lynch

to be fair to anticollie he has been prodded by vi which means that he either hasnt logged on to the site or he hasnt been in game, im not sure which. thanks for taking the time to read the thread and post your summary

to the people not voting i have a couple questions

what hasnt been compelling enough to vote yet in this first day? do you think a no-lynch is a good move? why or why not? how would you like to see the rest of the day go?

[ric]

bye sydeney.

Also, you are refusing to role claim, only scum would have reason not to.

Only in very rare circumstances is it a good idea for the town to no lynch. We definately do not want to no lynch on Day One. A circumstance where it is good to no lynch is where there is 4 players left because you know for definate there's only 1 scum left (if there were 2 left, you'd have already lost), that way the scums NK will narrow down the suspects. A circumstance such as this is the only time I would consider no lynching.

while i disagree that a mafia member wouldnt just say civi or try to mix it up with a power role and therefore that just because he didnt claim means hes mobbed up i kind of see how the mechanics of a no lynch would work in said 4 players scenario. something i had never really considered before.

Echo, Anticollie, Lynch, Raskol
If any of these people post without hammering, they are scum.

i disagree with this. they have cast their vote on who they find to be the most suspicious and/or are not around to do so. voting on principle and not just to achieve a result and get info is way better in my opinion. just saying. lets not jump to conclusions about alignment based on our own theory about whats best and others not agreeing/adhering to that.

[ric]

hm. anticollie seemed a little suspicious. strange night kill. is asking 'why?' a legit querry right now? i dont know. ive been depressed. its late. i work a double tomorrow and nights all this weekend. trying to get a 9-5. slow going on that. dumb.

haylen:

are you like the hot college dorm chick who gets drunk, gets sick and then stays in her room to the chagrine of all the dudes who hang in the commons room JUST to be noticed by people coming in? ive never lived in a dorm but i imagine this happens with you

[ric]

oh ha of course. as soon as i wrote that i thought 'well shit, now anticollies dead'

[ric]

To repeat myself again, I don't think the L-1 vote was scummy or pro-town. Probably null for me, it's got good and bad outcomes.

can you discuss this a little bit more? given the situation do you really feel like there were good outcomes? what good outcomes at that point in the game couldve happened? i just think it seems like only badness couldve come from that move

Gut feeling scummitude, too, eh? A good way to cast suspicion without giving reasons

i think this is a good point but i also feel that sometimes thats all youve got. i think it depends on certain qualities of the move. i happen to agree with onion to a point. i mean how is anticollie just gonna play gatekeeper to wisdom, point out that were entering into dangerous territory and then not explain himself? i understand that he had left but his last post was like 30 words long and lacked the usual substance. this is neither here nor there but i think he was purposely fading into the distance.

as for 'trust lists' it doesnt seem like a bad idea to summarize ones thoughts in full public periodically

however, i do feel like youre dead on with the idea that mafia misrepresent people. however, i feel like we should be careful with tossing this around. mis-naming people doesnt really do anything on its own you know?

raskol, what were your thoughts on haylen and echo and nikanor at the end of today and does anticollies kill register with you when thinking about them? (assuming you would consider anticollies death at this point)

regarding nikanor

looking at the end game i find myself a little suspicious of nikanor for being super lynch hungry in a touchy situation and then starting to pre-paint others as being suspicious merely because they werent voting or were voting for SOMEONE ELSE. cause heres the thing, on reexamining a little bit whats gone on in thread i made a mistake in taking raeil off the suspicious list. my reasoning wasnt bad but it wasnt taking in the bigger picture.

i had assumed that raeil was innocent merely for unvoting when onion put cyren on -1. this makes sense, im not saying it doesnt. but it also makes sense that raeil was doing this to buy some time and basically look auto-innocent. you know what im saying?

as much as i feel raeils innocence its incomplete to just wash away basically all hope for future suspicion because of that one move. which is what i did.

so considering catching what i feel is my own mistake i feel like this brings nikanor/raeil more into the neutral space and then consider how in post 308 he tries to pre-paint people as suspicious just because they didnt vote to execute. had this idea caught on with others i think it wouldve been pretty poisonous and for that i think nikanor deserves some suspicion. also for being lynch-crazy. we want to lynch bad guys and we need information but an execution is no cavalier thing. other people had already voted for who they thought was the most suspicious and how are you gonna hold that against somebody JUST because it didnt result in the execution that seemed most suspicious to you and merely because of your own feelings/case for the person you voted for? it seems like an attempt to corral people into doing what you want them to do, you know?

[ric]

There's nothing wrong with gut feeling exactly...

A)

its' not the kind of thing that you should come out with as evidence, or expect to convince other people, you know?

B)

It's a starting point, maybe, but nothing more than that.

C)

What do you mean, careful with tossing it around? Do you seriously think that last post of onion's was really just a case of misnaming?

A) ok but i think there is a place for it in public discussion, no? even in a case. its a difficult thing for the reader to put in its place given any given case that utilizes the emotional reaction but i still think it has place.
B) i disagree. in live mafia sometimes its all you have and i dont think internet mafia erases it completely. personally i find that slips (revealing information on accident) dont happen anywhere nearly as much on the internet but i do think that a visceral kind of read has a place
C) no and im kind of waiting to see if he responds to anymore of it. its suspicious he didnt tackle it.

i mean. i guess we just have to agree to disagree and chill with it.

raskol:

what are your thoughts on haylen and echo and nikanor?

onion:

what do you think about nikanor and echo?

[ric]

wierd OMGUS move. im gonna be pretty busy at work this week. i work tonight. unless i get called off im working 5 nights and a couple days. ill be on here but maybe not much. just saying.

nikanor:

i thought i already defended myself for this(?) of course onion was subverting the city and so he was number 1 on the list. i vouched for him off my read. that doesnt mean i didnt find him suspicious.

i believe right after that post you quoted i then go on to vote for sydeney because i was done defending my position on onion (as i had been doing all thread and i believe i said this ('now that im done defending my position im gonna do some ish') round about the post you quoted) and state that i found onion less supicious later when he wasnt being nearly as suspicious as sydeney at the time.

so i realized that it made no sense to not act on my own read and i started reading the sydeney posts to check if my suspicion on him was warranted, as he was my number 2 from somewhere in the beginning-middle of thread. in late game he was acting even more suspicious than early game and so i voted for that man.

fos nikanor

for trying to inflame some ish from the last day cycle on an OMGUS move and for reasons already stated such as trying to aggressively corral people into doing something you want to do merely because you feel it most advantageous to do so when they clearly felt differently with a legitimate basis, etc etc

so nikanor, what do you think about raskol, lynch, echo and haylen?

[ric]

@ric: I haven't forgotten your requested analysis. I'm going to start working on it now, hopefully finishing it by tonight.

thank you sir

haylen

i feel like some people believe lurking is auto suspicious and i think theres something to that. just saying. i have never seen a policy lynch used effectively but ive never seen a policy lynch happen until i started reading games on here.

yo where is everybody at right now? whats going on?

[ric]

i just wanted to make a last post. if thats ok. things have gotten busy at work. and they just got busier. sorry i havent been around but i have to be out now.

good luck. make a good case.
ric

[ric]

the reason why we killed anticollie was because he had political pull. he would say something and people seemed to listen and respect it. it seemed like he was building a case against everybody. despite my suspicions we couldnt kill onion night one because it opened up the possibility too much for a backlash vote on me. im glad onion was the cop though. i feel good about feeling suspicious of him. well done echo. clap clap clap.

[ric]

oh yeah and for the record, if you think i was implying roleness in that one thread, vi, what the hell, that is the most wifom shit ever.