Mini 801- Kubrick Mafia (Over)

[muzzz]

Yeah, that bothered me too. He actually seemed to have some sort of case on Fishy. But then he votes me with what basically amounts to "what Pads/BC said".

And my third-person Spartacus is apparently too subtle for him. But he's willing to read a cop claim in BC's use of the word "sword". That was barely a Spartacus reference. The cop part wasn't even in the picture yet.

[Fishythefish]

Indeed. Extremely uncomfortable with Infinis's recent play. This line is terrible:

BC has argued his points better than muzz so

Unvote; Vote Muzz

Make an argument. At the very least, express what points of other arguments you agree with. Don't hide behind the opinions of BC without even saying why you agree with them.

I think the muzzz bandwagon is likely heavily scum-fuelled. I think Pads and Infinis being scum together is pretty likely right now.

[Empking]

Vote Count 9

Muzzz (5): Cateraction, Lazurusmoth, Pads, Bloodcovenant, Infinis
Pads (4): Ort, Muzzz, Spolium. Fishy
Infinis (2) Skitzer, Ash
Fishy (1): Archon
Not Voting (0):

7 to Lynch

[BloodCovenent]

I do not like how fast Infinis jumped on this wagon.

[muzzz]

Skitzer, Cat and Archon haven't posted since Wednesday, Thursday and Friday, respectively. From each of them, I want to hear who their two top suspects are, as well as their opinion on all three bandwagons so far. I also want them to answer one of the two following hypothetical questions:

- If you were the cop, who would you investigate tonight?
- If you were scum, who would you want to kill tonight?

[cateraction]

My top two suspects are Muzz and Infinis.

If I were cop I would investigate BC.
I don't like the "if I were scum question" but I assume you mean who do I think is most pro-town. In that case, BC.

[BloodCovenent]

- If you were the cop, who would you investigate tonight?
-

If you were scum, who would you want to kill tonight?

this seems very scummy to me. Anyone else?

[Infinis]

I do not like how fast Infinis jumped on this wagon.

Really, tell me what you consider fast? How many days was my vote on one player? I state why I changing my vote, I thought BC's argument was stronger than muzz's. Lynch me, if you must but I'm not hacking through that back and forth between the two, to justify my interpretation of their arguments.

Keeping my vote on the person I think is scummiest and ignoring all else that is going on is stonewalling and obtuse. It does not help town.

Lastly, my definition of a wall of text is literally a wall, text upon text upon text, no matter the source.

[BloodCovenent]

I do not like how fast Infinis jumped on this wagon.

Really, tell me what you consider fast? How many days was my vote on one player? I state why I changing my vote, I thought BC's argument was stronger than muzz's. Lynch me, if you must but I'm not hacking through that back and forth between the two, to justify my interpretation of their arguments.

Keeping my vote on the person I think is scummiest and ignoring all else that is going on is stonewalling and obtuse. It does not help town.

How fast, i mean how fast with what is really little support, and what seemed to be very opportunistic voting. It just seemed kinda scummy in my eyes, and i thought that was worth mentioning. I know that if I had just voted Muzzz without any thing, everyone, including you would probably jump on my case. If I can't justify something like that for me, i can't justify it for anyone else.

[muzzz]

What a sucky bandwagon. Pads and BC seem to be the only ones who are even trying to make a case.

Cateraction and Lazarus think I'm confused about the Spartacus business. I think it's more likely that they've been reading too much into their PM's. But without a response from them, I don't really get a chance to make that clear.

But Infinis is the worst of the bunch. I mean, come on! Hacking through BC vs. me is one thing. But he can't even back up the well poisoning, or the sword = cop-claim.

Given this, I have half a mind to just make a full claim at L-1. I'm not really sure if it's the best of ideas. But it'll probably make some people listen to me, at least.

---

@Cat:
- You didn't give bandwagon opinions.
- You only had to answer one hypothetical.
- I really did mean "who would you want to kill", not "who seems the most town".

@BC: Trust me, it's an awesome question. Besides, it's too obvious to be fishing. The only reasons non-stupid scum would have for it are mired in WIFOM.

[BloodCovenent]

But you're giving scum (if their not smart enough) a list of who is their top priority to night kill.

[Infinis]

...
But Infinis is the worst of the bunch. I mean, come on! Hacking through BC vs. me is one thing. But he can't even back up the well poisoning, or the sword = cop-claim.
...

Please show me where I say sword = cop claim. I don't say it. I said it's a signaling ploy or just simply someone playing along with a joke. Cop signal, did you think I meant? I'll clear it up for you, a simple signal that "hey I have a mention of Spartacus in my PM".

The cop claim was awful play or a great scum gambit. It has been beaten into the ground, but I will reiterate to not know the scene from Spartacus and/or not to think it was strange there was such a quick name claim is mind blowing.

After reading my PM, I can see no reason why anyone is on the pads wagon. I think it's a OMGUS + scum wagon, well the alternate is almost as mind blowing as the thought process behind the undue cop claim.

And as to poisoning the well, you clearly didn't want a way for town to recognize each other. By restating, whoever brought it up first which can be ignored, you reinforced the point, making sure town could not use Spartacus as a way to ID each other.

[muzzz]

Please show me where I say sword = cop claim. I don't say it. I said it's a signaling ploy or just simply someone playing along with a joke. Cop signal, did you think I meant? I'll clear it up for you, a simple signal that "hey I have a mention of Spartacus in my PM".

That doesn't change my point. You completely ignore the fact that well over half my posts claim or imply Spartacus. So why are you willing to read into that minute (and possibly irrelevant) comment?

And as to poisoning the well, you clearly didn't want a way for town to recognize each other. By restating, whoever brought it up first which can be ignored, you reinforced the point, making sure town could not use Spartacus as a way to ID each other.

<sarcasm>
Yeah, I really needed to do that. The town had such a good idea of who knew what. They would've picked out my fakeclaim immediately.
</sarcasm>

If there ever was a way in which Spartacus could've been used to identify people, why aren't you (and the rest of the players) just ignoring what I said?

[lazarusmoth]

I am not understanding Infinis wall of text post at all. I think I have a read on muzz based on the Spartacus PM, but the allegations about the gladiator-sword signalling whoosh above my head.

Fishy, you're the one I consider the most town here, and my read on muzz are taking a slight hit. Could you tell me, in brief, why you're not voting for him?

[muzzz]

Missed this...

But you're giving scum (if their not smart enough) a list of who is their top priority to night kill.

Scum would need to be

really

stupid for that. I could explain, but I'd really like to hear from Archon and Skitzer before we discuss this at length.

[Archon]

Ladies, gentlemen, Puppy dogs of all ages, I'm back. I'll start my read tonight.

[Fishythefish]

Fishy, you're the one I consider the most town here, and my read on muzz are taking a slight hit. Could you tell me, in brief, why you're not voting for him?

The short version: I haven't seen a single convincing argument against him.

The medium version: the main line of attack is that he outed the cop. Well, he didn't. BC relatively clearly had different information from other players on Spartacus. Relying on scum not to notice this would have been foolish. Further, muzzz had noticed. As scum, why on earth just not keep quiet and take out Spartacus?
Other arguments against muzzz:
1. Him telling "everyone" to claim Spartacus, implying that he doesn't think everyone is a Spartacan, implying he isn't a Spartacan, implying he is scum.
Everyone single "implying" in that sentence is broken.

2. He didn't think Spartacus claims might power up Spartacus
Well- could be a tiny grain of truth in that one. However, the fact that by then cateraction had already said what his pm said in relation pretty much negates this. This is a weak but valid point.

3. He never claimed Spartacus.
False.

4. He wanted to force Pads to claim.
Rereading for the purpose of this post, I'm not quite so comfortable with this- I was under the impression muzzz thought Pads scum from the outset, whereas actually he was briefly just bandwagonning for a claim. Still, when you consider that two people had already said he looked to have different information than them, it makes sense.

Reading through, I don't see any other arguments against him.

The long version would involve serious walls of quotes, and may or may not follow some time in the future. Probably not.

After reading my PM, I can see no reason why anyone is on the pads wagon. I think it's a OMGUS + scum wagon, well the alternate is almost as mind blowing as the thought process behind the undue cop claim.

1. Just because your townie pm (for the sake of argument) gives you a reason to claim Spartacus doesn't mean that a scum pm wouldn't also do so.
2. Why are you on the BC wagon?

[Pads]

claiming Spartacus to keep him hidden seems bizarre (surely you expected a counterclaim? why was the claim necessary at that stage?).

I considered it as one of many possible outcomes, but if you're asking which one of those outcomes I expected to happen, I was expecting Spartacus to stay hidden. I don't know about 'necessary', but I will say that I'm a fan of getting the day rolling, and within the context of the movie lore, I believed myself to be doing the right thing.

I can see someone with my role pm claiming unprompted as Spartacus, although it would seem rash, but not if you realised the whole idea was to hide Spartacus.

I understand that side of it, but there's not much else I can tell you about my thought process at the time. Did the folks in the movie sitting next to the real Spartacus expect a counterclaim? Did they think that they should wait for a better time to arise? I realize that that's not flawless logic, but it's the only example I had available to me when I was deciding what to do.

[BloodCovenent]

so... according to the movie... you should have waited to claim, until I initially claimed?

[Pads]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8h_v_ou ... re=related

The fake makes a deliberate effort to claim before Spartacus does.

[muzzz]

2. He didn't think Spartacus claims might power up Spartacus

I still don't get this one. Nothing in my PM contradicts the theory I had: that claiming Spartacus was meant to confuse the bad guys about the identity of the real Spartacus. Nothing in BC's claim directly contradicts it, either. So I really don't see how it's scummy that I didn't arrive at another conclusion.

For the record: I'm just hoping someone can explain this to me. I'm not asking anyone to drag in their PM's to validate the argument.

[Fishythefish]

I, like others, connected BC's claim with my role pm immediately- the "claims powering up" idea seemed very natural. The fact that you didn't make this connection is a little bit surprising, and therefore points in a small way to you not having the usual townie spartacus reference in your pm.

[Spolium]

@BloodCovenent

- Please paraphrase your role PM in support of your claim.

[muzzz]

@Fishy and everyone else who likes that argument: so you're saying it came so

completely

natural to you that you basically consider it an impossibility that someone with the same PM didn't arrive at the same conclusion?

I find this quite surprising. Nothing in my PM (or in what Cat described of his) directly supports the idea of claims powering something up. There's also nothing that directly supports it in BC's claim. As far as I can tell, it's actually a bit of a stretch. Not a bad one, mind you, but a stretch nonetheless.

@Cat, Archon and Skitzer: you guys still have unanswered questions.

[BloodCovenent]

@BloodCovenent

- Please paraphrase your role PM in support of your claim.

why do you need to hear it again? it hasn't changed. It's back there 4-5 pages ago.