Phables: Death Note Mafia (Game Over)

[Lamont_Cranston]

-That he said that those who were voting Mastin are good to look at, but not doing this.

Probably in line with meta.

-The ad hom attacks against you as they are saying that you have been wrong about some players before, and therefore you are wrong now.

Definitely in meta.

This may be consistent with how he normally plays, are you therefore saying it is a town-tell or a null-tell?

I will let him defend himself.

Do you think he is capable of deliberately subverting his town-meta to do the same thing as scum?

No. His meta clearly shows he gets

extremely

flustered under voting pressure; I am going to call this emotional flustering a null tell.

2) I unvoted him because he cannot be scum using the criteria cited in #1 because:

a) He clearly has a reason for believing in Mastin's townliness (though a terribly flawed reason) and it is within his meta to believe that.

b) He clearly cannot be making that up which is 99% in line with his meta.

Have you played with him where he was scum before?

No.

Playing in a manner consistent with his town meta does not mean he is not also playing in a manner consistent with his scum meta (it might be a null-tell in this particular case).

Agreed.

It just seems not only are you dismissing his actions as scum-tells but you seem to think they

clear

him at present which I'm definitely not seeing.

His meta does not suggest to me that he would be

faking

the error -- your point is he could actually do this as scum. I have to agree based on the cause being emotional flustering which is a null tell; i.e. he would be flustered both as town & scum. I'm calling the mistake a null tell. That's how I feel comfortable.

@lamont. If I read you correctly, Kise more often doesn't understand the rules/plays a little weird, and it can't be that he uses it as an excuse for his mistake?

Ya. I see his play in this game as 99.99% probable of being genuine.

I will point out that he

could

still be scum here but I just don't have a case on him any longer.

If you are 99.9% sure he is "being genuine" that, to me, implies you think he is 99.9% likely to be town. [color=blue

No, just that he's not faking his belief that Mastin would be Mod killed (this differs from

your

case which I talked about above).[/color]

Yet you are leaving open the door to him being scum here. If you "don't see a case on him any longer", what probability do you think he has of being scum?

I'm calling it rand() odds until I see something better.

What probability of scum does someone have to have before you normally vote them?[

Logical fallacies that represent non-town actions/scum actions

What does their probability normally have to lower to before you unvote them?

My case against them must become a logical fallacy.

Votecount
Kise - 3 (Starbuck, ortolan, populartajo)
Spolium - 2 (Kmd4390, mykonian)
Lamont_Cranston - 1 (magnus_orion)
mykonian - 1 (LlamaFluff)
Kairyuu - 1 (Spolium)
Not voting: zwetschenwasser,

cateraction

, Kairyuu, Benmage,

ZazieR

, Jebus, Budja, Gorrad, Albert B. Rampage,

semioldguy

, Kise, Seraphim, Stephoscope, ZEEnon, PhilyEc, WeyounsLastClone, Lamont_Cranston

Don't make me repeat myself.

With 25 alive, it's 13 to lynch.

[mykonian]

You can have a thousand posts but still be a weak poster.

True story.

but still, if you post a lot, and you add a bit in every post, you'll get somewhere too, don't you?

[Lamont_Cranston]

spolium seems not to understand that claiming you might have a deathnote gets you lynched. (= scumclaim)

I'd imagine being unlynchable and unkillable takes the sting out of it.

It doesn't seem to me that he understands that we have to destroy deathnotes, and if he was town, he would know that was his wincondition.

I refer you to this rule, from the first page:

The town win condition is to destroy all Death Notes.

The town win condition is common knowledge, I'm afraid.

That aside, I asked the question because Budja's post suggested special knowledge about Shinigami.

- We know that Shinigami drop their death notes if they're targeted for a lynch/kill but there is currently no way of knowing how this ties in to their unique win condition.

- Being unlynchable/unkillable, Shinigami will still be around even if they lose their death notes, and may even be able to retrieve them.

- Two of the three main Shinigami in the series willingly allow their death notes to be used by others.

Therefore, we cannot say with certainty that it would be stupid of Shinigami to claim. Only Shinigami know this.

____________

Can you elaborate on this?

Kairyuu's avatar features a character/quote from the series (and he's playing this game of course), so it's pretty much a given that he's familiar with the series.

In the series, when a name is written on a death note the result is a heart attack 40 seconds later. However, the writer can stipulate both time of death and cause of death. This is used so many times in the series that anyone who's read the manga/watched the anime cannot possibly be ignorant of it.

When it had been posited that death note holders could specify a cause of death, Kairyuu's response was:

@Phily: You obviously aren't paying attention. According to the flavor in the first post, Mastin was shot. I would assume that means he was shot. The likelyhood of that being a Death Note kill is somewhat low.

I don't see how he could discount the idea so readily.

Can you please provide a link to some series reference where this is so? To where maybe even someone cause shooting to be the death?

Are the notes that powerful?

[Lamont_Cranston]

That aside, I asked the question because Budja's post suggested special knowledge about Shinigami.

Can you provide the quote for this for us all to see?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Lamont_Cranston -> top contributer of the I hate Mastin group. Feels townie for contribution levels but why exactly did you think Mastin was scum?

Mastin was a crap player. For the same reason you believed he was obvtowin is the same reason I wanted him gone. Please let that sink in and check my wiki if you need help. Btw, welcome! You're awesome!

I totally hate his Kise swithc that goes to wanting him dead to even defend him.

Sorry, my criteria for him being scum no longer applies. Doesn't mean he's not scum and you are free to vote him which I see you did...

[Lamont_Cranston]

Tajo, Lamont already backed off from Kise based on meta, and taking Kise's defence. You must have missed it. Kise also knows he was wrong, as the mod explained the rules.

Thats exactly my point. He knew Kise meta when he attacked him, or am I missing something here?

I didn't back off because of meta. I backed off because it was pointed out to me that there was no way he didn't

actually

believe that Mastin

HAD

to be town and I saw that there was no way he could fake it -- even though he was

terribly

wrong.

[PhilyEc]

First reason: Misa Misa *shrug* She still has many fanboys in her posession. They'd do anything to please her, even teling their names (and place of living obv as well >.<) This is why Misa Misa is dangerous and should be stopped

She always has shinigami eyes! -.- Don't you think that would let her see names far easier?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Because there seems to be some common misunderstanding of how one should act in regards to the truth, I will paraphrase a story about Ghandi:

He had gathered a large number of people for a march against the British to gather salt which was against the law at that time. A massive crowd had gathered and they were waiting eagerly for the march to start. Ghandi stepped out infront of the crowd and called the march off. His assistants went to him and said, "You can't call off the march, all these people are gathered here waiting!!" Ghandi responded:

"I don't care about all these people, I care about the truth."

Class dismissed.

[PhilyEc]

The issue revolves around death note speculation; specifically the way that death notes are used. The way that the issue is being discussed makes me feel

uncomfortable

.

Because one of us is right (me obv) and you are uncomfortable that we hit the nail on the head.

I thought I would draw attention to it and see if it interests anyone else.

Before you pursue the topic and give your own opinion. Okay, Okay, I see what you're doing here. +Scum Points.

[PhilyEc]

I thought exactly the same as myk when I saw Mastin's claim. A shinigami with a death-note would be very foolish to claim.

Why would a Shinigami with a deathnote be very foolish to claim, Budja?

scumslip. Really, it won't get more obvious.

unvote vote Spolium

?

[mykonian]

I think I explained it somewhere. twice.

[cateraction]

@Mastin: Nice to see you ol' chap.

Dead-set on lynching me, eh? Tunneling-->Anti-town to scummy. Wanting to set up a quicklynch early-on-->Scummy. You've done both.

Don't you tunnel when you're cop? Seem's a bit hypocritical.

Anti-town by nature, pro-town in role. Yup, pretty much.

God lord man, there's no need to softclaim.

In spite of myself, I feel the compulsion for a

Vote: Lamont_Cranston

I don't like this.

Zee gets town points because you're hella crazy to buddy up to Mastin unless you actually believe what you're saying.

I'm refusing to give my reasons until I hear what lamont has to say about why he thinks I'm voting him. I theorize the reason he was extremely vague was because he didn't want to point out something different to give me additional evidence.

This is very scummy. It's a vote that is hoping for a reason.

I set someone up as a mislynch and see who agrees with me.

So we can't trust any cases you make to be genuine? This rings scum to me.

i feel lost with this mastin thing...so i'ma still rvs

Vote Kairyuu for not paying child support

I agree with kmd on the scumminess of this post.

Mastin should be killed by either a vig or scum or something.

I disagee. Mastin, while a bit taxing, is very good at making people slip. You can't take half of what he says seriously, but he illicits reactions and that is always good.

[quote="Mastin]I'm ignoring him because I think we'll find the scum in Lamount and Magnus. [/quote]

I don't like this at all. Mastin ignoring someone means something. I just don't know what.

You don't get it do you? I ignore YOU.

Magnus I have responded to. He refused to listen but w/e. I think he's a good scum hunter unlike you.

You need to die. NAO!

obvscum.

While I think Lamont is scum he makes a decent case on Kairu in post 123.

Unvote vote Mastin i didn't like his odd claiming in rvs, and his short quoting/mass one-liners is both annoying, and imo a distraction.

You're voting him based on RVS shenanigans and excessive contribution to the game? Scummy.

I have no idea what to make of Zazier's post 128.

Mastin never plays this way at the beginning of the game. He's acting too gutsy to be anything less than gambiting scum. Vote: Mastin

He played way more obnoxiously in the other game we're in zwet. Did you forget that?

not yet.
Maybe after lamont tells me what he thinks he's done that is scummy.

Still scummy.

You can't even tell the alignment of the player, so how can you tell if it is a mislynch?

QFT

As of post 196 mykonian has yet to contribute anything substantial. Read coasting scum.

I am town. This is how I play. So, yes. Obvtown Mastin. I can see Kai's viewpoint as being legit.

You really need to stop saying things like this. I get really confused as to what you're claiming, not claiming, what you're saying you are all the time or in this game.

Post 230 is more non-contribution from Myko.

Essentially, I've never seen town write something with no indication at all (smileys are good indicators), and then later explain how it is a joke.

Yet I've seen scum do it a lot.

Hence, scum tell.

QFT.

Post 234, myko is so worthless.

Just skimming now. Zazier and Zeenon look town.

OH SNAP MASTIN GOT ROCKED!!

Glad he was town, that's what I was feeling and I think validates his cases to an extent. At least throws suspicions on everyone on his case (lamont, Ben, zwet, wey)

(Lynching Mastin) Confirms him, we don’t mislynch someone else.

Strikes me as scummy, especially in light of Mastin's death.

Lamont has a good point about Kai finding Mastin obvscum. I, too, felt he was buddying very strongly. The point is equally valid on myk and kise, Lamont is growing more town in my eyes. Maybe Mastin really did rub him the wrong way. But there are other alighments so I don't know. IGMEOY

I agree with Lamont, that seems an obvious scumplay. Well found. vote Kise

Voting someone for a reason that you were included in? I don't like that. Hypocritical at best, scum bussing at worst.

Notice the potential connection here between Kise and Kai (both Mastin defenders).

Noted.

I'm through page 18.

Summary:

Scummy (in order):
Kise
Kai
Mykonium (couldn't resist, lol)
BenMage
Magnus
Lamont

Town Reads:
Zeenon
Zaz
KMD
Starbuck

[PhilyEc]

EBWOP >.<
Them = Kise and ZEE

You is smart in the head.

[PhilyEc]

I think I explained it somewhere. twice.

As did he, yet your vote stands. Odd.

[mykonian]

May I see how I voted for Kise, based on a reasoning where I was included? I thought we voted Kise because he thought Mastin town, while I thought a long time Mastin was shinigami without a deathnote.

[mykonian]

I think I explained it somewhere. twice.

As did he, yet your vote stands. Odd.

ok, I'll try again. Town wants to lynch people with deathnotes. Spolium can't see that claiming a role that could easily have a deathnote is not a scumclaim.

Spolium simply hasn't the town win condition in his mind when he is posting that. Also, he is quite talking a lot about mafia gaining deathnotes: it seems important to him.

thats why I say that Spolium is not town. He doesn't think towny, he has scummy motivations.

[Kise]

@Zaz - I don't want to rally the sheep at all. I'm not looking to start a lynchwagon on any of Mastin's voters. What I said I would do is keep my eye on them. I've played with Mastin before, so yes, I know how any scum players familiar with Mastin as well would try to use his unorthodox style against him and lead to his lynch. And I have also played another game with Lamont, and he was a bit of a tunneler there. Again (to all) I NEVER said we should lynch those who voted against Mastin. What I said was -- because I know how easy it would be for scum to lynch Mastin -- that I PERSONALLY would keep my eyes on Mastin's wagon to weed out which ones (if any) were scum. And yes, I made a personal attack on Lamont. He did quite a few himself early on in the game to others, so blame karma. And the reason I did not want to ask if we were allowed to make RC/NM/MM/etc. before Mastin died is because I thought I knew the "no concerted attempts to break the game" rule pretty well... I didn't...

(I've only read up to Page 22. I'll post more later tonight on the remaining pages.)

[Kise]

@Mastin: Nice to see you ol' chap.

Lol... He dead

[PhilyEc]

ok, I'll try again. Town wants to lynch people with deathnotes. Spolium can't see that claiming a role that could easily have a deathnote is not a scumclaim.

Spolium simply hasn't the town win condition in his mind when he is posting that. Also,

he is quite talking a lot about mafia gaining deathnotes:

it seems important to him.

thats why I say that Spolium is not town. He doesn't think towny, he has scummy motivations.

The town win condition is common knowledge, I'm afraid. That aside, I asked the question because Budja's

post suggested special knowledge about Shinigami.

- We know that Shinigami drop their death notes if they're targeted for a lynch/kill but there is currently no way of knowing how this ties in to their unique win condition.
- Being unlynchable/unkillable, Shinigami will still be around even if they lose their death notes, and may even be able to retrieve them.
- Two of the three main Shinigami in the series willingly allow their death notes to be used by others.

Therefore, we cannot say with certainty that it would be stupid of Shinigami to claim. Only Shinigami know this.

It was obvious he was asking because Budja's post showed too much knowledge not avaliable to players yet you vote for him for what basically wasnt the case. You've completely mistaken his post yet you continue to say hes not got town's win condition on mind even when he made it clear this wasnt why he asked. Basically you're ignoring his true reason. Spoilum aint scum (today).

Bold1. Hasnt it been made clear that deathnotes are exchangable? There can be multiple Kiras or none, hes obviously observed this rule as well as the town win condition.
Bold2. SEE?

[mykonian]

you know I reacted on the fact that his thoughts were not protown, and that was not the post I reacted on?

[PhilyEc]

you know I reacted on the fact that his thoughts were not protown, and that was not the post I reacted on?

Thats his explanation of his true intention, you misrep'd. Your vote remains still? Either stubborn, blind or scum.

[mykonian]

you know I reacted on the fact that his thoughts were not protown, and that was not the post I reacted on?

Thats his explanation of his true intention, you misrep'd. Your vote remains still? Either stubborn, blind or scum.

no, the fact that he can't see that a shinigami play makes you a lynch target, means that he doesn't see that he has to lynch people that have a deathnote. This is not something that he explained, just: "he could also not have a deathnote"

Duh, that is what everyone was asking himself. But 2/3 of the shinigami we know had a deathnote, but still, Spolium can't see how the claim endangered Mastin.

[WeyounsLastClone]

At this point I find ZEEnon quite suspicious. The way he acted after Mastin's death seems real scum to me (responding with 'What.The.Hell.' is more scummy than anything).

For example
[quote="ZEEnon] I knew he was town too, we were much too similar. [/quote]

Or
[quote="ZEEnon]I third this question[/quote]
on if Mastin was vig-killed or mod-killed. Just too easy to create confusion when the most logical assumption would be a vig-kill.

He then lists the peole voting for Mastin insinuating at least something (why else post it) and then says he doesn't mean anything by it.

Vote ZEEnon

Also, Lamont more and more and seems like a case if he talks enough he'll expose himself some times. Seriously, stop posting four times in a row or just what randomly pops up in your head. This thread gets enough posts as it is each day.

Finally, ABR, in other games you seem quite aggressive and post a lot why are you keeping quite here? Also starting with a post on a possible jester is a very bad start in my opinion.

[WeyounsLastClone]

Darn it, messed up my quotes. Please ignore my previous post and use this one.

At this point I find ZEEnon quite suspicious. The way he acted after Mastin's death seems real scum to me (responding with 'What.The.Hell.' is more scummy than anything).

For example

I knew he was town too, we were much too similar.

Or

I third this question

on if Mastin was vig-killed or mod-killed. Just too easy to create confusion when the most logical assumption would be a vig-kill.

He then lists the peole voting for Mastin insinuating at least something (why else post it) and then says he doesn't mean anything by it.

Vote ZEEnon

Also, Lamont more and more and seems like a case if he talks enough he'll expose himself some times. Seriously, stop posting four times in a row or just what randomly pops up in your head. This thread gets enough posts as it is each day.

Finally, ABR, in other games you seem quite aggressive and post a lot why are you keeping quite here? Also starting with a post on a possible jester is a very bad start in my opinion.

[Lamont_Cranston]

The issue revolves around death note speculation; specifically the way that death notes are used. The way that the issue is being discussed makes me feel

uncomfortable

.

Because one of us is right (me obv) and you are uncomfortable that we hit the nail on the head.

No, not really but I am concerned there may be some subtle rolefishing going on...

I thought I would draw attention to it and see if it interests anyone else.

Before you pursue the topic and give your own opinion.

Well actually, I am unfamiliar with the series but I find it fascinating and entertaining. I can't very well understand what is necessarily true or not without some clarification which is why I brought it up.