Mini 792 - Tofu Mafia. Game over!

[Vi]

@Vi - Why wasn't it a good idea to push the wagon when myself and Porkens were pressuring Adel? (I know I already said why it wasn't, but was that your reason back then?)
Was there anything you considered that might be more important than pressuring Adel (again) this early in Day 2 given events and a claim?

Such as...? I voted Adel because I've been watching him all game. See also agreement with Elmo regarding who should play into today's discussion.

As far as back when you and Porkens were pressuring Adel, at the time I was trying to discern the motives behind Adel's questions and votes (to see if there was a strategem there). The fact that you started said wagon also put me off.

-----

VI

Daykill: Adel

are Mini 669
and Mafia 87 really the only two games you've played where you had mafia roles?

Yes.
When I say I'm never Mafia, I'm only slightly exaggerating.

3. At least one member of the scum group has played with Tajo before (probably more)

Is this necessarily so?

[@voting Zorblag:]

does anyone else see why?

Does it have to do with the vote count analysis and being in your bracketed group of meta-players?

[Adel]

3. At least one member of the scum group has played with Tajo before (probably more)

Is this necessarily so?

I think so, unless the kill was just to set me up. Otherwise, I fail to see why a scum group made up of players who hadn't played with Tajo before would nk him.

It would be useful to look though the e games that people had played with Tajo, and identify which ones he was an especially strong player in. That would help eliminate the players within the brackets, or at least point to which ones might have been especially motivated to NK him.

[@voting Zorblag:]

does anyone else see why?

Does it have to do with being in your bracketed group of meta-players?[/quote]
nope

[SpyreX]

Vote: Adel

If this is the fireworks show that your day one play is based around, color me unimpressed.

The compilation is nice - but no analysis at all? Really?

@SpryX: why didn't you vig me?

Ohh, I thought about it. However, with herod flipping town it removed the tie that pushed it over from "wtf" to "haha busted scum" which left me with my initial choice. Thus it was when I said who I was targeting.

Assumptions:
1.

SpryeX is not mafi

a and pulling an incredible gambit
2. Tajo was killed by the mafia group
3. At least one member of the scum group has played with Tajo before (probably more)
4. The mafia group includes 3 players

Living players that stated that they have played with Tajo within the last 6 months: SpyreX, springlullaby, Zorblag, Vi (assuming he meant "tajo" when he wrote "taco"), Adel. I know that Elmo is familiar with Tajo, and so is DGB.

Conclusion: The mafia group includes one (and probably two; possibly three) out of (Adel, Elmo, DGB, springlullaby,

SpyreX

, Vi, Zorblag) .. which basically only leaves out Porkens and Ecto.

This.. well.

1.) You're not following your own assumptions for your conclusion.
2.) Your subset includes 2/3'rds of the game that is still alive.
3.) Your assumption set / hypothesis doesn't include motive that would be present from playing with tajo before ("he's awesome, thus kill him despite his sub par play") that would preclude Porkens and Ecto out of the group.
4.) This is written as a scumlist but the only way it makes sense is "clearing" Porkens and Ecto - which has no reasons besides the above.

vote: Zorblag

does anyone else see why? (I'n not being cryptic for the sake of being cryptic, I honestly think that another townie will see what I am seeing)

His play concerns me because he has stayed out of the fray and, while cool and collected, hasn't said much. He's truly "under the radar" and has stayed off of any major wagon all of day one.

However, that doesn't really explain not just giving your explanation.

I'd skimmed a lot of SpryeX's posts, and I felt that there was plenty there to fill in those blanks once I had enough time to go back and be rigorous about it.

Some, sure. Like the fact I was paired with you. However, if you want to develop your "meta" on me feel free - I know we'll be playing more and you'll see despite everything else I am hard on my stance on meta. Always. Its... blah.

Moreso, I wish I could have seen this case to conclusion. Your notes themselves preclude the expectation I am lying about my feelings of meta - why?

I think so, unless the kill was just to set me up. Otherwise, I fail to see why a scum group made up of players who hadn't played with Tajo before would nk him.

It would be useful to look though the e games that people had played with Tajo, and identify which ones he was an especially strong player in. That would help eliminate the players within the brackets, or at least point to which ones might have been especially motivated to NK him.

See, this pushes it over the top. The fixation on meta is eliminating "common" factors:

1.) Tajo could have been seen as a PR playing close to the vest.
2.) Tajo was a high-probability target for a cop investigation due to his play and his kill would waste that information.
3.) On the flipside, Tajo had minimal chance for a doctor protect versus higher profile players / watcher protection.

And thats off the top of my head. There is the WIFOM-factor of you obv-killing him / someone setting him up.

I mean, of course "meta" could have played a role but there are plenty of in-game reasons to go for the kill. So, I think you're just not trying.

[Ectomancer]

The fact that you started said wagon also put me off.

Ok, this has gotten old, so let's look back at your Ecto post (despite you lacking the gumption to back it with a vote)

Vi: How has Ecto read as 'not kosher'?

Here's the real rule.

never say you did it to start the game before something else has actually arrived to talk about. Otherwise, you didnt do anything but waste space.

Sooooo... is Artem scummy, or null, or what for doing basically that?

This was entirely referencing my own method of choosing targets and not letting up until we have material. As far as te 3 go, Spyrex is a null, Porkens is +1 scum and Tajo is +2 scum.

(I'm pretty sure someone said "this has nothing to do with Artem", but I can't find that post - anyway, this has nothing to do with Artem)

Exactly, if you read the early game, it was clear that it was Ecto who made 2 cases right off the bat against players (I know you love competing wagons Adel). Makes it real clear what I was talking about here, and that was my refusal to back off until we had game material to move on. (DGB apparently didn't dig my moves as of page 6)
This is me explaining how useless it is to try to kick off a game with a reason, but use the "it was just to start the game" excuse

before

you've actually got content beyond the fact that you attacked somebody.
Objectified, it could also be slight buddying to Spyrex and placeholder cases against Porkens and Tajo for an Ectoscum.

Not to be offering Spring a break here, but it seems to me a lot of conversation has concerned her. (which in a bizarre way doesnt quite count as lurking) I could see the reason for just watching to see how all this plays out between the arguments going on.

I haven't seen s-lullaby's name being tossed about much while reading. I don't buy it.

Scared? Sanity can blur your thinking.

"Scared" isn't the word I'm thinking of.

Or maybe the fact that you only mentioned SL 3 times has you biased towards the thought that she wasn't discussed, and my 35 times (plus a few others) indicates that she was.

(This is actually null for both of us in my eyes. Your own experience and actions will bias your beliefs)

Prolific is what you all have been. Its hard to catch up, but a couple guesses here. Scum is on one of the big wagons and its probably not a bus.
Scum has already squared up against a town member, and though wants to look "on the case", wont actually push theirs to a lynch to avoid the obvious
"who was involved in lynching town"/

That's vague, but what you get from a skim (and Im not done yet)

Names, please.

Don't hold your breath there chief. This is an analysis of a snapshot in time (just stating it changes the situation as you know) and as I've stated, it hadn't been easy to catch up. So, instead of just shooting off a one-liner asking others to go back and work, you could be just a bit clearer about exactly what it is you want? Lets see. Do we want those who have been prolific, which wagon has the scum on it,or maybe you want the specific scum. Are you looking for the scum that has already squared up against a town member (or maybe the name of the town member), but wont continue because they want to avoid being the guy drumming up the townie lynch? You want all of the above? Well take a look at the bandwagons that fit that criteria and let me know.

I'll tell you what this is best at. Some players use posts as notes to themselves (or others) in order to refer back to them when some actual concrete evidence arrives.

That post could be considered a filler post by some, but there's ore in there to be mined. I just dont know I'm quite ready to swing the pickaxe at that particular pile.

This is the first time I've ever seen a literal filibuster in Mafia. Condensed version:

"I said something, but I don't know what I said and I don't feel like finding out."

This was an attempt at a catch-up post. I appreciate that you weren't giving the V/LA guy a break, but I at least make some minor effort here. Funny thing about this one is that, as I said, placeholder posts exist by players to remind them to look at something. Here's the part that caught my eye looking at your play surrounding Adel:

Scum has already squared up against a town member, and though wants to look "on the case", wont actually push theirs to a lynch to avoid the obvious
"who was involved in lynching town"

That would put you and your pressure on Adel so close as to almost match should we find an Adeltown. You voted, got off, bandwagon started again, but you couldn't jump back on again if you wanted to avoid looking opportunistic. Soon as Day 2 starts, you're back on again right away despite other developments that also deserve discussion. Why do you think I'm questioning your motivations?
If you are trying to play that game, you got overeager in my eyes where the trying to look "on the case" is concerned. When asked about other items than Adel your response was

such as?

IIRC.
Seriously, I think a tunnel on Adel and her promised response is premature at this point in the day don't you think?
Is it your honest assessment that we need to pressure Adel into giving "the result" now?

Pre-EBWOP - I see Spyrex has posted while I was compiling this post. I had planned to play your game anyhow Vi and spike your punch while not voting for you and simultaneously vote Adel to see if you would hop off simply because I'm on the wagon. Spyrex adding to the Adel wagon doesn't ruin the idea entirely, but I don't think an extra vote on Adel is necessary at this point now.

Please answer for me Vi (not with "such as?"), is there not any topic that could have been more pressing than Adel's "revelation"? You make me think that you are avoiding something in the lynch/kill patterns or Spyrex's claim by going back to something we could get to at anytime today, and that you purposely avoided late yesterday by not joining the Adel wagon with Porkens and myself.
If you do have something, please detail why it is less important than Adel's dangling carrot?

Reason Spyrex doesn't get the same rundown as Vi is because #1 - He very well wouldn't talk about his own claim and #2 - He added more content to the case.

[Ectomancer]

@Adel - it really is time and just posting updated charts won't do...

[Ectomancer]

@Porkens - Are you also getting the creepy feeling that we are being setup for an either/or type of lynch/vig/SK at some point? Don't get me wrong, you don't give me warm fuzzies, but my hair is raised on my arms watching this. It went from us 'drawing fire' for whomever did the NK last night, to Spyrex accusing Adel of (falsely) 'clearing' us.

Kitty smells fish.

[Adel]

I figure that Zorblag is scum with Vi, but I didn't want to just come out and say it.

[SpyreX]

@Porkens - Are you also getting the creepy feeling that we are being setup for an either/or type of lynch/vig/SK at some point? Don't get me wrong, you don't give me warm fuzzies, but my hair is raised on my arms watching this. It went from us 'drawing fire' for whomever did the NK last night, to Spyrex accusing Adel of (falsely) 'clearing' us.

Based on what Adel said as part of the conclusion WAS in essence a clearing:

Conclusion: The mafia group includes one (and probably two; possibly three) out of (Adel, Elmo, DGB, springlullaby, SpyreX, Vi, Zorblag) .. which basically only leaves out Porkens and Ecto.

It says very little about the majority of the players except leaving you two out of the potential "obv scum" group. If thats something else you tell me.

I've got some more new and exciting ideas for tomorrow as well (mostly detailing out the other one). But we'll see.

As for setting you up for vig/sk (which would be me I'd assume). How the hell are 'they' going to set you up. If I decide to shoot you (which wont be tonight fyi) you can damn well be sure you're gonna know it ahead of time.

I figure that Zorblag is scum with Vi, but I didn't want to just come out and say it.

No reasons?

[Ectomancer]

You might be a tougher nut to crack than some, but Vig/SK's can be 'forced to play along' with the 'town's' wishes. You could very well have your own reasons for playing along whichever you are. I know what Adel said, but I am also aware of the discussion section where Porkens and I were basically singled out as trying to draw fire to cover the NK last night even though there were at least 3 other people who could have been included (and were, but most assuredly separately from the 2 of us)
Adel also stated those assumptions as such (which have certainly not been established as fact at all). #2 is probable, but #1, #3, and #4 are hardly such and having you and Adel pattering along at each other building this pyramid of assumptions into something even close to a given and myself and Porkens being constantly paired is suspicious as hell.

[caf19]

Votecount

Vi (1): springlullaby
Adel (2): Vi, SpyreX
springlullaby (1): Zorblag
Porkens (1): DrippingGoofball
Zorblag (1): Adel

Not voting

Ectomancer
Porkens
Elmo

[DrippingGoofball]

3.) On the flipside, Tajo had minimal chance for a doctor protect versus higher profile players / watcher protection.

Occam's razor here.

tajo wasn't a particularly threatening scum hunter in this game. When I was scum against him in WIH2, he lived a very long time, until he was lynched.

It's the sort of NK Adel might cook up to challenge herself, eliminating the non-threats first, haha.

Reconsidering my earlier town tone read, I'd be willing to vote her. I should look at her closely. I'll try tonight.

[Ectomancer]

3.) On the flipside, Tajo had minimal chance for a doctor protect versus higher profile players / watcher protection.

Occam's razor here.

tajo wasn't a particularly threatening scum hunter in this game. When I was scum against him in WIH2, he lived a very long time, until he was lynched.

It's the sort of NK Adel might cook up to challenge herself, eliminating the non-threats first, haha.

Reconsidering my earlier town tone read, I'd be willing to vote her. I should look at her closely. I'll try tonight.

But only if he is from Australia you see, for then, but of course...

I thought you didn't put much stock into meta's, that they were a starting point. Now you look ready to vote for your meta, only a different way because you thought of a new

unless

.

It's the sort of NK Adel might cook up to challenge herself, eliminating the non-threats first, haha.

This is a weird 3rd person ego-stroking and one not necessarily rooted in fact. How are your scum hunting skills for example? Mine are almost perfectly average by the numbers. As town I'm only 9 of 16 wins and of those 6 when I lived to endgame, we lost half the time. (recalling numbers from an MD thread, didn't go back and look again)

In short, you are located in WIFOM central and even what you are saying there doesn't necessarily match reality.

Do you think you are more of a gut read, or a logical scum hunter? I ask because your gut seems to be flip-flopping and your logic is lacking. An improvement either way would be fab.

[Zorblag]

Assumptions:
1. SpryeX is not mafia and pulling an incredible gambit
2. Tajo was killed by the mafia group
3. At least one member of the scum group has played with Tajo before (probably more)
4. The mafia group includes 3 players

Living players that stated that they have played with Tajo within the last 6 months: SpyreX, springlullaby, Zorblag, Vi (assuming he meant "tajo" when he wrote "taco"), Adel. I know that Elmo is familiar with Tajo, and so is DGB.

Conclusion: The mafia group includes one (and probably two; possibly three) out of (Adel, Elmo, DGB, springlullaby, SpyreX, Vi, Zorblag) .. which basically only leaves out Porkens and Ecto.

The thing that strikes Troll immediately when Troll reads this be that the only premise that Adel actually needed to reach that conclusion was #4. If there be 3 mafia members out of 9 players then any group of 7 players must contain at least one mafia member by the pigeon hole principle. Troll would expect Adel to see that right away as well though it be hard to judge how someone else's reasoning would work and Troll be inclined to take into account here that this no be what anyone else thus far has focused on. In any case, Troll's initial reaction was something along the lines of what Ectomancer said about it being an attempt to make a group of Ectomancer and Porkens somehow (though Adel no be clearing either of them here as no scum groups have actually been ruled out by the argument.)

The assumption that someone who be familiar with populartajo's play be the one responsible for pushing his lynch does strike Troll as interesting. That be why Troll asked:

Actually, a question Troll has for everyone be what did you think of populartajo's play as of the end of day one? Troll knows him was town now so Troll no needs any in depth answer at all but Troll be curious.

Troll's experience with populartajo was in a game that still be ongoing so Troll no can say much about it beyond the fact that populartajo still be alive and Troll be dead (assuming Troll can even say that much.) Troll no has a read for populartajo's town play vs. scum play based on it yet (though for the sort of argument Adel was making that no matters if Troll was scum and knew that populartajo wasn't as Troll would still have a basic feel for the play to work with.) Troll's opinions about populartajo do be what Troll expressed throughout day one and Troll stands by them; Troll found him scummy based on what him was doing and not doing but Troll acknowledges that others no would have any reason to believe that Troll be telling the truth about this. What be more pertinent to the rest of you might be what others thought of populartajo's play (or at least expressed publicly about it.) Troll might go back and see what there is to be found now that Troll has said this and future answers to Troll's questions be rendered largely meaningless.

Troll do be interested in hearing what people have to say about Adel's theory that Vi and Troll be scum together. That no be one of the two guesses Troll might have made about what Adel had in mind when he asked if anyone knew why he was voting for Troll (Troll's initial guesses were some discussion issues and votes involving populartajo in particula.) Troll thinks Troll can see where Adel might come up with the thought but Troll would like to know whether others think them might have as well (and if them can correctly give something close to the case Adel might have in mind.)

Adel, does it just be the connections between Troll and Vi that you have in mind with your vote or do you have any questions Troll might address beyond that? This no was the sort of push Troll expected you would start with this day but Troll can think of a couple things you might be doing with it and will let you speak for yourself.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Vi]

I think so,

unless the kill was just to set me up.

Otherwise, I fail to see why a scum group made up of players who hadn't played with Tajo before would nk him.

Why does everything come back to you and your own self-preservation?
For that matter, why does tajo's death necessarily have to do with meta?

The compilation is nice - but no analysis at all? Really?

This.

-----

Ok, this has gotten old, so let's look back at your Ecto post (despite you lacking the gumption to back it with a vote)

I can only vote one person at a time y'know.

Exactly, if you read the early game, it was clear that it was Ecto who made 2 cases right off the bat against players (I know you love competing wagons Adel). Makes it real clear what I was talking about here, and that was my refusal to back off until we had game material to move on. (DGB apparently didn't dig my moves as of page 6)
This is me explaining how useless it is to try to kick off a game with a reason, but use the "it was just to start the game" excuse before you've actually got content beyond the fact that you attacked somebody.
Objectified, it could also be slight buddying to Spyrex and placeholder cases against Porkens and Tajo for an Ectoscum.

...which doesn't answer the question I posed to you at all.

Or maybe the fact that you only mentioned SL 3 times has you biased towards the thought that she wasn't discussed, and my 35 times (plus a few others) indicates that she was.

(This is actually null for both of us in my eyes. Your own experience and actions will bias your beliefs)

Ooo, the namedrop analysis.
Can you think of any reason I would break the analysis vs. s-lully? (hint: I can)
Either way, it's pretty obvious that 35 is inflated considering it includes future mentions of springlullaby as well. This is disgustingly forced.

That would put you and your pressure on Adel so close as to almost match should we find an Adeltown. You voted, got off, bandwagon started again, but you couldn't jump back on again if you wanted to avoid looking opportunistic.

Inconsistency: You see/saw Adel as Town? Seriously?

Soon as Day 2 starts, you're back on again right away despite other developments that also deserve discussion. Why do you think I'm questioning your motivations?
If you are trying to play that game, you got overeager in my eyes where the trying to look "on the case" is concerned. When asked about other items than Adel your response was "such as?" IIRC.

SpyreX doesn't really deserve more mention than he's already gotten tbh. That would be the point of highlighting other peoples' quotes and saying "this". While I will acknowledge that we need more Porkens ITT, the rest of it was basically "we need more of these people to give ANY kind of useful input" IIRC (s-lullaby, Porkens, Troll).

Seriously, I think a tunnel on Adel and her promised response is premature at this point in the day don't you think?
Is it your honest assessment that we need to pressure Adel into giving "the result" now?

No and yes, in that order.

I had planned to play your game anyhow Vi and spike your punch while not voting for you and simultaneously vote Adel to see if you would hop off simply because I'm on the wagon.

I wouldn't have, not this early. Thanks for telling me you were out to frame me though.

Please answer for me Vi (not with "such as?"), is there not any topic that could have been more pressing than Adel's "revelation"?

AFAIK, not really.

You make me think that you are avoiding something in the lynch/kill patterns or Spyrex's claim by going back to something we could get to at anytime today, and that you purposely avoided late yesterday by not joining the Adel wagon with Porkens and myself.

Well. The wagon was... Elmo, tajo, Vi, Adel, you, SpyreX, and Porkens. Take out the people who are dead and myself, and there's Elmo, Adel, you, SpyreX, and Porkens. I have no problem with Elmo, SpyreX has claimed something, I was QFTing Porkens early enough yesterday that I'm not placing him at top priority, and I've been paying more attention to Adel than you.
You can hammer on my not being on your wagon all you like; it doesn't change anything.

@Adel - it really is time and just posting updated charts won't do...

lol

-----

I figure that Zorblag is scum with Vi, but I didn't want to just come out and say it.

No reasons?

This.

[springlullaby]

@Vi. If I understand correctly, you found that Adel's meta matches as town and scum alike, and that she 'delivers' eventually, yes? (I haven't verified this so I'm taking your words for it for now;)

If so, isn't it more natural to conclude that Adel's failure to deliver is a nulltell?

I don't find your 'stalling' scenario to be very convincing. If Adel is scum, I think it is a lot more likely that she's genuinely been caught off guard by the hammer yesterday, and this because it can't be that hard to pull something out of her arse with those spreadsheets of hers, especially D1 while town isn't likely to held her rancor if she is wrong.

And yes, I have other issues.

I've thought about moving my vote, but since s-lully likely wouldn't care if I voted her and Adel seems content to pull strings, I don't think it's necessary.

This tidbit is pretty strange. Why didn't you vote me? Because 'I wouldn't care'? Seems to me if you want to pressure people, them 'caring' or not shouldn't factor in. I think the Adel bit looks terribly like coaching too.

Generally speaking, I think your play stands out compared to others. You have pretty much commented on everything D1, but the effective pressure you have exercised on people is actually pretty low.

------------

@Adel, if you think Vi and Troll are scum together, why did you choose to vote Troll over Vi?

[Adel]

@Adel, if you think Vi and Troll are scum together, why did you choose to vote Troll over Vi?

Troll has played 5 games as scum, and won 4. He is the more threatening scum player.

[Vi]

@s-lullaby: "Matched". And the delivery came sooner than this.

This tidbit is pretty strange. Why didn't you vote me? Because 'I wouldn't care'? Seems to me if you want to pressure people, them 'caring' or not shouldn't factor in.

I don't understand the logic behind the last sentence. I'm not interested in going through the motions; I'm interested in results. If I don't think you're going to respond to a vote that I'm placing for pressure, there's no point in placing it.

I think the Adel bit looks terribly like coaching too.

I don't follow.

You have pretty much commented on everything D1, but the effective pressure you have exercised on people is actually pretty low.

As opposed to your own play?

[SpyreX]

You might be a tougher nut to crack than some, but Vig/SK's can be 'forced to play along' with the 'town's' wishes. You could very well have your own reasons for playing along whichever you are. I know what Adel said, but I am also aware of the discussion section where Porkens and I were basically singled out as trying to draw fire to cover the NK last night even though there were at least 3 other people who could have been included (and were, but most assuredly separately from the 2 of us)
Adel also stated those assumptions as such (which have certainly not been established as fact at all). #2 is probable, but #1, #3, and #4 are hardly such and having you and Adel pattering along at each other building this pyramid of assumptions into something even close to a given and myself and Porkens being constantly paired is suspicious as hell.

I am the toughest of nuts. I am the super-walnut, filled with smaller walnuts until you break the space-time continuum - and therein lies my fruits.

Now, please, follow me here. Yes, you and Porkens are grouped by both Adel and I. However, the rationale for said grouping is different: and therein lies the rub.

1.) I have grouped you two together as an extension of what the town role blocker said in Twilight under the assumption that if he would shoot ONE of you he would also, in fact, nullify one of you for the night.

All this means is that if one of you are scum you did not perform the kill. Which leads me to believe that, if one of you is scum, the grouping HAS to include a lower profile player.

Also, you'll notice I've never said both of you are scum. Thats because I find Porkens/Ecto the lowest probability scum pairing in the game.

2.) Adel has group you two together under a, to me, bizarre conclusion that is "Everyone can be scum but these two." Which, besides being strange and clearing you two for reasons I can't understand, does very little to push the game forward.

So its a little irking to say we're both grouping you when we're not.

Troll has played 5 games as scum, and won 4. He is the more threatening scum player.

Thats awesome and all, but actual reasons within the game not some form of the genius gambit?

[Adel]

Adel has group you two together under a, to me, bizarre conclusion that is "Everyone can be scum but these two." Which, besides being strange and clearing you two for reasons I can't understand, does very little to push the game forward.

I'm taking the angle of "who killed Tajo, and why" -- I did not clear them. I hoped, when I started my post, that fewer players would be in the brackets, and I'm disappointed with the results, but I think it can be taken the next step to see which players here probably have a basis for a high opinion of Tajo's play as town.

I agree that Ecto and Porkens are highly unlikely to be scum together, but no average, at this point, I see the odds of one of them being scum as being about the same as any other random pair of players containing a scum player.

~~~

at this point, spring and DGB are far behind the curve for contributing to the game. Elmo and Troll seem pro-town to many players, but looking at their games as scum I think demonstrates that the reasons why some players here think they are town are about the same as the mistaken townies in thier games as scum.

~~~

Why did you decide to kill last night? Why didn't you decide

not

to kill last night?

[springlullaby]

@s-lullaby: "Matched". And the delivery came sooner than this.

This is beside the point. You are using meta in a fallacious way, if you found out that Adel's meta indicates that she 'delivers' both as scum and town, then you using her lack of delivery in the context of her meta as a motive of suspicion is invalid.

This tidbit is pretty strange. Why didn't you vote me? Because 'I wouldn't care'? Seems to me if you want to pressure people, them 'caring' or not shouldn't factor in.

I don't understand the logic behind the last sentence. I'm not interested in going through the motions; I'm interested in results. If I don't think you're going to respond to a vote that I'm placing for pressure, there's no point in placing it.[/quote]

This looks like a lame rhetorical excuse. I don't think it is likely for town to renounce pressuring people of perspective scumminess on the ground that 'they probably won't respond'.

I think the Adel bit looks terribly like coaching too.

I don't follow.

I'm sorry, what don't you follow?
Are you that naive, now, really.

You have pretty much commented on everything D1, but the effective pressure you have exercised on people is actually pretty low.

As opposed to your own play?[/quote]

Yes, as opposed to mine.

[springlullaby]

EBWOP submit instead of preview.

@s-lullaby: "Matched". And the delivery came sooner than this.

This is beside the point. You are using meta in a fallacious way, if you found out that Adel's meta indicates that she 'delivers' both as scum and town, then you using her lack of delivery in the context of her meta as a motive of suspicion is invalid.

This tidbit is pretty strange. Why didn't you vote me? Because 'I wouldn't care'? Seems to me if you want to pressure people, them 'caring' or not shouldn't factor in.

I don't understand the logic behind the last sentence. I'm not interested in going through the motions; I'm interested in results. If I don't think you're going to respond to a vote that I'm placing for pressure, there's no point in placing it.

This looks like a lame rhetorical excuse. I don't think it is likely for town to renounce pressuring people of perspective scumminess on the ground that 'they probably won't respond'.

I think the Adel bit looks terribly like coaching too.

I don't follow.

I'm sorry, what don't you follow?
Are you that naive, now, really.

You have pretty much commented on everything D1, but the effective pressure you have exercised on people is actually pretty low.

As opposed to your own play?[/quote]

Yes, as opposed to mine. Amongst others.

--------------------------

@Adel. Then would you be agreeable to vote Vi?

[Vi]

This is beside the point. You are using meta in a fallacious way, if you found out that Adel's meta indicates that she 'delivers' both as scum and town, then you using her lack of delivery in the context of her meta as a motive of suspicion is invalid.

I didn't know I had to give a full and complete meta read the first time. My apologies. Or something.

This looks like a lame rhetorical excuse. I don't think it is likely for town to renounce pressuring people of perspective scumminess on the ground that 'they probably won't respond'.

Well, let me ask this. Would you have responded any differently had I voted you?

I'm sorry, what don't you follow?
Are you that naive, now, really.

I don't understand what you're referring to by "coaching". I've only seen the term used maybe twice and the quote you gave doesn't seem to match up. No comment about naivete

Yes, as opposed to mine. Amongst others.

Amongst others, maybe. Yours? Unless it was against people who were accusing you of anything, no. Hence the surprise when you said you would pursue a "dialogue" with me from myself and others.

-----

668 is basically irrelevant.

I'm taking the angle of "who killed Tajo, and why" -- I did not clear them. I hoped, when I started my post, that fewer players would be in the brackets, and I'm disappointed with the results, but I think it can be taken the next step to see which players here probably have a basis for a high opinion of Tajo's play as town.

You can find this inthread. *gasp*
Also, lol at the inconclusive result.

I agree that Ecto and Porkens are highly unlikely to be scum together, but no average, at this point, I see the odds of one of them being scum as being about the same as any other random pair of players containing a scum player.

When the time comes for me to check if Ectomancer and Porkens are scum together I'll keep that in mind.
I can only guess how you came to this conclusion.

at this point, spring and DGB are far behind the curve for contributing to the game. Elmo and Troll seem pro-town to many players, but looking at their games as scum I think demonstrates that the reasons why some players here think they are town are about the same as the mistaken townies in thier games as scum.

Talking of little pressure...
I would be more interested in this stuff about Elmo and Troll if examples were provided.

Why did you decide to kill last night? Why didn't you decide

not

to kill last night?

Not terribly necessary, albeit interesting. I've already given criteria for determining SpyreX-SK.

[SpyreX]

I'm taking the angle of "who killed Tajo, and why" -- I did not clear them. I hoped, when I started my post, that fewer players would be in the brackets, and I'm disappointed with the results, but I think it can be taken the next step to see which players here probably have a basis for a high opinion of Tajo's play as town.

I agree that Ecto and Porkens are highly unlikely to be scum together, but no average, at this point, I see the odds of one of them being scum as being about the same as any other random pair of players containing a scum player.

No, you took the angle of "who killed Tajo for meta reasons*" and those results were, in essence, everyone but Ecto and Porkens. Which doesn't help anything.

at this point, spring and DGB are far behind the curve for contributing to the game. Elmo and Troll seem pro-town to many players, but looking at their games as scum I think demonstrates that the reasons why some players here think they are town are about the same as the mistaken townies in thier games as scum.

DGB is a replacement and is doing leaps and bounds more than Korts did. Spring too, but yet.

However, you are all but saying you think Elmo and Troll are good scum picks but not giving reasons WHY. Meta isn't a reason. What have they done in this game that would lend credence to this?

Why did you decide to kill last night? Why didn't you decide not to kill last night?

Because I thought he was scum? Why the hell wouldn't I kill?

[springlullaby]

This is beside the point. You are using meta in a fallacious way, if you found out that Adel's meta indicates that she 'delivers' both as scum and town, then you using her lack of delivery in the context of her meta as a motive of suspicion is invalid.

I didn't know I had to give a full and complete meta read the first time. My apologies. Or something.

I don't follow. You have justified your vote on Adel today on the ground that she hadn't 'delivered' as a proof of scuminess. Yet your meta was that she did 'deliver' as both town and scum.

This looks like a lame rhetorical excuse. I don't think it is likely for town to renounce pressuring people of perspective scumminess on the ground that 'they probably won't respond'.

Well, let me ask this. Would you have responded any differently had I voted you?

I did respond to other votes on me, did I not?

I'm sorry, what don't you follow?
Are you that naive, now, really.

I don't understand what you're referring to by "coaching". I've only seen the term used maybe twice and the quote you gave doesn't seem to match up. No comment about naivete

I mean coaching defined as trying to influence a buddy's play.
i.e. You commenting on Adel 'pulling strings' followed by 'I don't think it's necessary'.

The comment in itself kinda don't fit in your scenario of yourself trying to determine Adel's alignment between the lines. Giving hints as to how you think she should act kinda defeat the purpose of observation, no?

Yes, as opposed to mine. Amongst others.

Amongst others, maybe. Yours? Unless it was against people who were accusing you of anything, no. Hence the surprise when you said you would pursue a "dialogue" with me from myself and others.

The point to the above being? I did pressure Artem a fair bit. And I did not make heaps upon heaps of comments on seemingly everything and nothing in particular. In fact you are pretty much the only one who did that.

[Adel]

@Adel. Then would you be agreeable to vote Vi?

eventually, first (if I were sticking with my more effective albeit more scummy-looking cryptic playstyle this would be easier) I'm interested in drawing out the kind of information that would out Vi's partners, and second, if Vi is town, there are other players slipping through right now (Porkens, DGB, Elmo, Troll, and spring). Third, Vi seems primed to make the kind of wall of word quote battles that won't do much to help the town, and if I were to vote for him OMGUS would be the reply.