Mini 801- Kubrick Mafia (Over)

[AshMC1984]

I would never normally have claimed unprompted like that but I might come into suspicion later in the game for not having done so. Happy? It has the potential to out power roles and was

honestly pretty dumb of Pads to do in the first place.

I don't think discussion of the matter is helpful.

Infinis - what are your thoughts on the above post, especially the bold?

[BloodCovenent]

I would never normally have claimed unprompted like that but I might come into suspicion later in the game for not having done so. Happy? It has the potential to out power roles and was

honestly pretty dumb of Pads to do in the first place.

I don't think discussion of the matter is helpful.

Infinis - what are your thoughts on the above post, especially the bold?

I guess, unless he's scum trying to draw out the cop. [Pads]

[BloodCovenent]

EBYOP:

Ok, i meant, if Pads were scum trying to draw out the cop. But I don't think that was really the case.

[muzzz]

Why are you answering questions directed at someone else?

Also, no response to 149?

[BloodCovenent]

Why are you answering questions directed at someone else?

Also, no response to 149?

So you are saying that Ash doesn't want input on that question from anyone else? Only from Infis? Infinis will probably give some other explanation, I just wanted wanted to give my input, and with that I think i should be free to give my analysis to any and all questions at my discretion. So, i guess my new question is, do you not want what could be vital information circulating?

and there was no question in 149. Therefore, i have no response.

[Infinis]

I would never normally have claimed unprompted like that but I might come into suspicion later in the game for not having done so. Happy? It has the potential to out power roles and was

honestly pretty dumb of Pads to do in the first place.

I don't think discussion of the matter is helpful.

Infinis - what are your thoughts on the above post, especially the bold?

My thoughts on the above, sadness. It saddened me immensely that anyone who joined Kubrick mafia, did not know the "I am Spartacus!" scene. Hell, even if you didn't know it was Kubrick, wouldn't you know the scene? Spartacus was intentionally being hidden in plain sight.

By someone out and out claiming Spartacus it could be a scum gambit to fish out Spartacus, or Spartacus got over anxious and claimed, or someone is willing to sacrifice themselves to continue hiding Spartacus.

Out of those options, the first would presuppose knowing Spartacus was a power role for town, why risk a scum team member for a vanilla townie. The second option I leave to all of us to debate after a reread. And the third option puts a big WIFOM bomb on the scum, is he really Spartacus, do we NK him?

[ortolan]

Orto said something along the lines of "all you spatacaians, claim now! Do it!"

No, I can assure you I didn't. "Everyone" picks out every player of the game, none of this "all you Sparticans" stuff.

everyone claim Spartacus. Now. I mean it. Just do it.

Lynch All Liars?

FoS: Ortolan

Except what you have quoted here is not an example of me "lying", it is an example of you not reading the game. "Everyone claim Spartacus" means, that,

Everyone

should indeed claim Spartacus. "Everyone claim Spartacus" does not mean "Everyone who has Spartacus in their rols PMs should claim it". We should do this again sometime.

I'm with cat on this one. I have the same information that's clear to me but seems to be causing muzz some confusion. I suggest everyone read their roles very carefully.

unvote, vote: muzz

Fishy, consider that the Spartacus claim is not in the hands of a very small minority. Consider that Spartacus claims are pro-town roles to activate

and

mask the cop role. It's unfortunate that it didn't work the way it was planned now that the cat's out of the bag.

I understand none of this post.

Partially because I found the random voting phase discussion to be uninspiring, and I believed the claim would spark some helpful discussion, which it did.

Thus far all it has sparked is unhelpful discussion and outing the cop.

Also, once looking up the lore of the movie, I had assumed that my PM included the information it did for the purposes of misleading whoever was looking for Spartacus and keeping Spartacus hidden.

um, that's not the impression I got from my role pm at all, it doesn't imply this.

The later in the game that I claimed Spartacus, the less chance that it would fool whoever was hunting him. Without the ability to contact the real Spartacus and inform him that he should probably stay hidden I could only hope that he was familiar with the film and knew to stay hidden.

I am thinking the scum i.e. Pads had more information about the claim than the townies themselves.

With that in mind, I put myself into harm's way, hoping to keep whoever was looking for Spartacus misled. Unfortunatley, the real Spartacus made himself known pretty quickly in response, and given the information that he says he has in his PM about needing to be 'recognized' to be activated, I guess I can't really blame him for doing so.

I think you are scum.

The post in which Ortolan claimed Spartacus included several lines before the actual claim. Those lines explained what was coming and built up to the eventual claim of Spartacus, like a movie building up to a climax for maximum effect. That's showmanship. And it struck me as insincere.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm? What?

My motivation for engaging in what you describe as "showmanship" as scum is .................................................... (you fill in the blank).

We had some folks who seemed completely unaware of Spartacus when the claims started, but Muzzz seems to have been on the opposite end of that; he seems to be very in tune with the situation. He clearly picked up on BC's posts indicating that BC was likely the real Spartacus. There's nothing wrong with that - I noticed it, too. But, he then proceeded to drag BC out into the open and tried to rustle up support for a bandwagon and a claim from BC.

It was because, as muzzz pointed out in 87, BloodCovenent

did

have different information in his pm to all the other town-aligned players re: Spartacus. As you are not a town-aligned player, you would not know this.

Even with what little information I was given in my PM, I was able to deduce that Spartacus should be hidden.

Ah, gee, these sorts of fakeclaims can be difficult. You really should ask the mod for information next time.

I'm not sure if 'before he gets NK'ed' means 'prior to his death' or 'so as to prevent his death', but either way forcing the claim only given the scum more information with how to deal with him. For instance, if the scum know he's the doc, they can fire away. If they know he's not the doc, they need to take other actions, depending on what roles they have.

If Muzzz truly wanted to protect Spartacus, he would have asked for the doc protection for BC and left the subject alone.

This further reduces the possibility, in my book, that Muzzz is part of some benevolent group that's looking for Spartacus. It reeks of the scum group trying to figure out how to optimize their night plan now that Spartacus is found.

vote: Muzzz

Translation: *waffle waffle* I am scum. *waffle waffle*

Why am I the first player to vote Pads after this post? I am pro-town and he clearly has entirely different information about "Spartacus" to that in my role pm. Lynch please.

Unvote
Vote: Pads

[Empking]

Vote Count 6

Muzzz (4): Cateraction, Lazurusmoth, Pads, Bloodcovenant
Lazurusmoth (2): , Ash, Muzzz
Infinis (1) Skitzer
Fishy (1): Archon
Ash (1): Infinis
Pads (1): Ort
Not Voting (2): Fishythefish, Spolium

7 to Lynch

[Fishythefish]

Pads- Muzzz thought that BC had different information (and he was right), and was worried the scum would pick up on this. As scum, why not just night kill BC without worrying about doc protection? As town, it is questionable whether what he did was the right move. However, your alternative of asking for doc protection doesn't make any sense, and there's no good scummy motive.
I'm not sure Pads has different information from me, but I think it's a good possibility. I wasn't going to claim Spartacus unprompted, but I can see others doing so with the same role pm. Pads appears to think that the pm refers to things which mine does not though.

vote: Pads

[muzzz]

So you are saying that Ash doesn't want input on that question from anyone else? Only from Infis? Infinis will probably give some other explanation, I just wanted wanted to give my input, and with that I think i should be free to give my analysis to any and all questions at my discretion. So, i guess my new question is, do you not want what could be vital information circulating?

No, but you should let Infinis answer before you give your opinion. That way you avoid potentially influencing his answer, which could be important to the person that asked the question.

and there was no question in 149. Therefore, i have no response.

You don't have a response to the fact that I'm saying the assumptions behind you vote are incorrect?

---

Why am I the first player to vote Pads after this post?

Because I thought he might be a specific townie powerrole. I was hoping I could make him see he was using too much non-vanilla info before the scum saw it. But with two people claiming that Pads knows more than they do, the scum are already aware that Pads is non-vanilla.

Unvote, vote Pads

Let's see if he'll claim what I think he will.

[Empking]

Vote Count 7

Muzzz (4): Cateraction, Lazurusmoth, Pads, Bloodcovenant
Pads (3): Ort, Fishythefish, Muzzz
Lazurusmoth (1): , Ash,
Infinis (1) Skitzer
Fishy (1): Archon
Ash (1): Infinis
Not Voting (1): Spolium

7 to Lynch

[muzzz]

@Emp: the vote count for Pads should be 3

[Spolium]

vote: Pads

, because I want to see where that goes.

@Infinis

- Since you think it'd be stupid of scum not to claim Spartacus after the first few claims, I'd very much like to know which of the claimants you consider most likely to be scum at this point.

@Fishythefish

- I'm still having trouble consolidating the idea that you believe(d) Spartacus is likely a pro-town role yet wanted to keep the number of claims minimal, and it's strange that you went on to claim that it was not clear that Sparticans make good scum targets despite the former point.

@Cateraction

- What are your thoughts on the Pads wagon?

@BloodCovenent

- Were you, upon joining this game, familiar with the movie Spartacus?

Once again I apologise for my absence. More to come, I've been reading this thread for a good chunk of today but will be busy for a few hours.

[lazarusmoth]

I'm not liking the pads bandwagon here. Pads claimed Spartacus first. Given that I don't think anti-town had such an instruction on their roles, and I don't interpret that as scummy.

Are we really still going with the point that scum has instructions on their roles to claim Spartacus and power up a cop?

[Fishythefish]

@Fishythefish

- I'm still having trouble consolidating the idea that you believe(d) Spartacus is likely a pro-town role yet wanted to keep the number of claims minimal, and it's strange that you went on to claim that it was not clear that Sparticans make good scum targets despite the former point.

I'll try to explain fully my Spartacus thought process.
Initially, I imagined the reference to Spartacus was intended as a claim to save you- and hence only a couple of people had it, with very possibly no actual Spartacus in the game. I thought that, if I was right about this, actual Spartacus claims would be valuable information- they would go some way towards confirming a player. I also thought that the Spartacus claims (of which I knew there would be at least three left) might well come from a variety of roles, and it wouldn't be easy for the scum deciding whether to shoot at them, even if they suspected that the real Spartacus (if he existed) was a powerful PR.
I never wanted Spartacus outed- however I did want only the people with a good reason to claim Spartacus to do so. I believed (and believe, though it's not relevant now) that, if we constituted a minority, we could get valuable information out of it.

unvote

Yeah. On reflection, it's hard to believe scum have information different from mine which makes them the first to claim Spartacus.

[muzzz]

Given that I don't think anti-town had such an instruction on their roles

What, exactly, are you basing this assumption on?

[ortolan]

Gut-read: Pads and Fish scum-team

[muzzz]

What bothers me most about Fishy is his initial over-eagerness to assume scum wouldn't know about Spartacus. I've wondered more than once if maybe he

knew

that scum lacked said info.

And on re-read, I have absolutely no idea what this is referring to:

I also thought that the Spartacus claims (of which

I knew there would be at least three left

)

[Fishythefish]

What bothers me most about Fishy is his initial over-eagerness to assume scum wouldn't know about Spartacus. I've wondered more than once if maybe he

knew

that scum lacked said info.

And on re-read, I have absolutely no idea what this is referring to:

I also thought that the Spartacus claims (of which

I knew there would be at least three left

)

From my pov, it was clear that Pads, Blood and myself at least had a good reason to be claiming Spartacus.

My initial reactions were based on false (and probably rather silly) assumptions about what the Spartacus information meant.

Consider that I claimed Spartacus third- I think it's not very realistic to think I did it without information.

[muzzz]

So by "three left" you meant "even if everybody stopped claiming after that point, there would still be at least three players who had claimed Spartacus"?

---

Consider that I claimed Spartacus third- I think it's not very realistic to think I did it without information.

I disagree. I think it's quite realistic to expect someone to make the connection between two Spartacus claims and the "I am Spartacus" scene.

And I can't stress this enough:

we have absolutely no reason whatsoever to assume anything about the scum's knowledge

. People need to stop assuming silly things and start playing with what we know. Suggesting that the scum wouldn't know something without having facts to back it up is counter-productive. All it does is give people a false sense of trust towards others. And only scum profit from that.

[Spolium]

I'm not liking the pads bandwagon here. Pads claimed Spartacus first. Given that I don't think anti-town had such an instruction on their roles, and I don't interpret that as scummy.

Are we really still going with the point that scum has instructions on their roles to claim Spartacus and power up a cop?

As I recall, BloodCovenent said that he needed to be "recognised" by a particular group to activate his cop power. There is no reason to assume that scum had anything to do with said activation, so why are you even considering it as a possibility?

Your persistence in pushing the idea that scum could not possibly have claimed Spartacus first implies special knowledge of what scum know - knowledge which further suggests BC is lying about a special group activating his powers. Is this the case? Do you harbour such information?

And I can't stress this enough: we have absolutely no reason whatsoever to assume anything about the scum's knowledge.

QFMFT.

[BloodCovenent]

I'm not liking the pads bandwagon here. Pads claimed Spartacus first. Given that I don't think anti-town had such an instruction on their roles, and I don't interpret that as scummy.

Are we really still going with the point that scum has instructions on their roles to claim Spartacus and power up a cop?

Agreed. I'm going to try and do some pre-lynch analysis, and re-read the thread today.

[Infinis]

vote: Pads

, because I want to see where that goes.

@Infinis

- Since you think it'd be stupid of scum not to claim Spartacus after the first few claims, I'd very much like to know which of the claimants you consider most likely to be scum at this point.

@Fishythefish

- I'm still having trouble consolidating the idea that you believe(d) Spartacus is likely a pro-town role yet wanted to keep the number of claims minimal, and it's strange that you went on to claim that it was not clear that Sparticans make good scum targets despite the former point.

@Cateraction

- What are your thoughts on the Pads wagon?

@BloodCovenent

- Were you, upon joining this game, familiar with the movie Spartacus?

Once again I apologise for my absence. More to come, I've been reading this thread for a good chunk of today but will be busy for a few hours.

Who do I think is scum...FTF his 164 is so scummy I dont know where to begin. As an opener muzz's 169 first line. That just leaped out of FTF post for me as well. And I too would like an explanation of the 3 claims left line.

[BloodCovenent]

@BloodCovenent

- Were you, upon joining this game, familiar with the movie Spartacus?

No, i apologize, but i figured that this wouldn't be the only film involved.

[Pads]

Thus far all it has sparked is unhelpful discussion and outing the cop.

I can imagine how unhelpful all this conversation is to a scum who might have known it all already. And don't beat around the bush, if you're blaming me for the outting of the cop, say so. But a review of reality will reveal that it was your buddy, Muzzz, who you've jumped to the defense of, who was asking for a Blood wagon to get him to claim, not me.

that's not the impression I got from my role pm at all, it doesn't imply this.

My PM doesn't imply it either. I

inferred

that I was given the name Spartacus to claim for the purposes of hiding the real Spartacus

after reading the lore of the movie

. My original quote says as much.

My motivation for engaging in what you describe as "showmanship" as scum is .................................................... (you fill in the blank).

The motivation for scum would be to present themselves as part of the uninformed majority. The motivation for the showmanship is to make sure everyone sees 'how uninformed you are' to help sell the act.

I would never stake my game on the existence of a hypothetical doc.

But why did you think the person who was almost certainly Spartacus needed to be forced to claim?

I'm voting for you now because I can't see a good end to that scenario or a good reason for doing that. Even without the Spartacus mechanic "Get that guy to L-1 so I can know his role" doesn't make any sense to me.

It looked like scum trying to gather information about their kill so they can best make use of whatever roles they have.

But, that said, I've considered a different possibility.

This quote's been flying around in my head:

i don't know what to say, i was given the name Spartacus. I don't get the cop abilities until some special group recognized me, i don't know how they will, or what they have to do to recognize it. they must have some thing special in their given PM, that lets them know to look for me.

I'm going to think out loud for a moment.

So we have a Cop that needs to be empowered by people that probably like him and are looking for him.

That same cop, has several other people in the game that have been passive-aggressively encouraged to pretend to be him.

That leans towards the theory that the scum know his name and are looking for him to kill him.

So, perhaps our setup is:

3 scum
1 Spartacus
2-4 fake Spartaci
2-4 random others
2-3 Mason group who gets to search for Spartacus once a day/once a night, (night action makes the most sense)

If the Mason group finds him, they 'recognize' him, and the cop switches on.

That would be a large percentage of the game based around a single Kubrick movie as is, so I bet there's more, but I don't see the above as unreasonable.

Which brings me back to my reconsideration. Maybe you're in that Mason group, Muzzz. But if that were the case, I gotta think you would have stayed silent upon realizing that BC was likely Spartacus, rather than drag him out into the open. My vote stands.