Mini 803 - Pale Moon Risin' (Over!)

[ZazieR]

I don't think mykonian is scum, because his reason for voting Zilla was crap, and it would be dumb to vote your partner like that if you were scum.

You admit that mykonian's reason for voting Zilla was crap and yet you still come to the conclusion that he's likely not scum? Like

seriously?

Yes. Call it the 'too dumb to be scum' fallacy or whatever, but it's just too sloppy and careless for a scumbag to make, I believe.

Ah, yes, fallacies.

Everybody's

Scum's best friend.
*Will get back to this when I have my thoughts about Zilla and Myko ready*

[ZazieR]

B) I DID understand he charter-lurker comment. But if he will vote CHARTER for lurking, why wouldn't he vote AFATCHIC for the same?
Especially considering that with charter, being scummy is practically a way of life, and someone pointed that out?

I had assumed at the time it was because Mykonian was making that comment based on Charter's meta. This needs more explanation by Mykonian, who dodged this completely.

Judo-speculation: Is camn's interest in afatchic solely based on lurking?

I think it is, personally.

Ok, first of all the first part. If this is before Myko explained why he mentioned Charter, but not AFC, it will be noted down. I 'love' it when other players 'answer' before the aimed player.
And yes, camn hates lurkers. Obv as she doesn't like me

[ZazieR]

[quote="Charter]

the rest are apparently angry at me for voting Porkens on a weak premise (when we were transitioning, thanks to me, out of RVS, I should remind you, with a 75% joke vote)

...and my vote is parked for the day. Zilla is going way too far with all this chest pounding with getting us out of the RVS. Whoopdie freaking doo. It's not a towntell in the slightest, and yet Zilla is trying to make it out like she's town for doing a scummy action to transition out of the RVS using all this "I did it for reactions" bs.

First, I'm not saying I'm town for getting us out of RVS. I'm saying that my vote on Porkens wasn't all that serious. Second, "all this chest pounding?" Not only does that put a disturbing image in my head, but I haven't been saying that I deserve any town-points for being the one to stir up serious discussion. Third, I never claimed to vote Porkens for reactions. Yes, I wanted to see where plum was going with her "is that serious?" but that had nothing to do with transitioning out of RVS. Fourth, this ignores the actual point, that people are suspecting me for a weak vote.

This is why I hate Charter.[/quote]

1. No, you're not saying that you're town. But due to your wording of the first quote of the 'pyramid' above, it gives the impression that we should be 'rewarding' you, instead of [INSERT WORD THAT IS THE OPPOSITE OF 'REWARDING']
(Bold for clarification will be done if asked)
2.
3.

I'm not claiming doublevoter. It was a mechanism to draw discussion, which it did. Porkens then asked if I was a doublevoter. That was the reaction I was looking for, and that's why I voted him.

4. Weak AND hypocritical vote

[mykonian]

I would like a reaction on my vote, esspecially from VP.

[ZazieR]

@ All: Is not casting a random vote more or less suspect than casting a random vote without jokey reasoning provided? Also, does anyone know if Myk has a history of avoiding voting in the random stage at all?

I have checked four games, as he mostly replaced in in the games I've had with him.
Open 135 - scum - no randomvote
Open 145 - town - randomvote
Mini 738 - scum - randomvote
Mini 724 - town - no randomvote
Based on this, I say that there's 50% chance he's scum
As for your first reason, neither is suspicious to me.

Zazie, show up soon

Here for now, as I'll be going offline in +/- 2 hours for something important
In case you're wondering what, I'll be cheating on my boyfriend XD He knows though, so no biggie

I'll get back later to this post though when I know more about the Myko and Zilla cases.

[ZazieR]

There is no reason to assume Porkens is, at this point, anything but town. I'm interested in the points Zazie is bringing up

Because Plum asked, my reasons for saying this is based upon meta. My first game with Porkens, I was lurker scum as some players here can remember .
My second game with Porkens was a newbie game in which I started active, but in the end became again lurker scum. Porkens even pointed out in that game that I had lurked before as scum.
In our third game, Porkens was scum. I was even a worse lurker there, but he did not mention this at all in that game.
After that, there was a long break till we had our fourth game. I got replaced quite early, and again, was scum.
This is our fifth game, but before this one, I asked him to replace me into a newbie game. In that one, I was quite active. Porkens also know the reason why I replaced out, and I hope that neither he and Kevin (and if Myko knows, Myko as well) will tell what it was. I was town.

Anyway, my point is that all these games should have given Porkens the impression that I lurk as scum. He even admitted this in one game as I already said. And this is one of my reasons (the other two were already mentioned) why I think Porkens is scum. As he didn't consider a lurking Zazie, but shot a lurker.

You do realize that your vote on mykonian placed him at L-1 too right? Were you concerned about ANYONE being at L-1 so quickly when you stated the above or just Zilla?

I'm ashamed to say that I didn't, and I would not have voted him at that point had I realized that. Now that you've unvoted and he's at L-2, well, he remains my top suspect.

mhmm...

[ZazieR]

Also, I have reacted on zazie here, that brought something really unusual up, that is hard to believe to come from town.

Oh? You were suspicious of me for my suspicions against Porkens? I couldn't tell that from the posts which reacted to it.
Also, you've seen worse from me (the stuff you searched which I didn't want you to). So, this is highly noted.

[mykonian]

Also, I have reacted on zazie here, that brought something really unusual up, that is hard to believe to come from town.

Oh? You were suspicious of me for my suspicions against Porkens? I couldn't tell that from the posts which reacted to it.

I questioned it for the fun of it?

Also, you've seen worse from me (the stuff you searched which I didn't want you to). So, this is highly noted.

we still don't agree.

[ZazieR]

There was a post that set off my gut. But if I'd comment on it at that point, the player could possibly change his/her approach in this game. If his/her play stays the same, I'll get back to that post.

Um, fair enough I guess.

I'll probably mention it when I put down my thoughts about each player, but Myko should be able to figure out which post it is

Also, if you're not a 'full' vig (which you'll have to prove day 2), but a one-shot, expect my vote tomorrow.

You'd vote someone who shot scum? Why?

For meta reasons, just explained. Short version, Porkens knows me as lurker scum, but decided to shoot another lurker. And the other two reasons already mentioned.

Are you suggesting that scum have a Governer, Dayvig, and something more powerful? I'm not completely sure what a Governer does, but VP's post suggests that it is powerful

Could be possible, but I think there are two scum teams.

[ZazieR]

Also, I have reacted on zazie here, that brought something really unusual up, that is hard to believe to come from town.

Oh? You were suspicious of me for my suspicions against Porkens? I couldn't tell that from the posts which reacted to it.

I questioned it for the fun of it?

Also, you've seen worse from me (the stuff you searched which I didn't want you to). So, this is highly noted.

we still don't agree.

Then why did you point it out as example that you're not tunnelvisioning if you only questioned it for the fun?

And apparently, we disagree. Though I've always been good at going after players who were 'confirmed'...

[ZazieR]

I am also not comprehending ZazieR's post 202, Porkens is quite definately town in my book. Her explainations don't make sense either (I understand what she's saying, I don't think it's right).

What was I saying according to you?

[mykonian]

Also, I have reacted on zazie here, that brought something really unusual up, that is hard to believe to come from town.

Oh? You were suspicious of me for my suspicions against Porkens? I couldn't tell that from the posts which reacted to it.

I questioned it for the fun of it?

Then why did you point it out as example that you're not tunnelvisioning if you only questioned it for the fun?

I am not going back for everything for a baseless accusation. I have been doubting players, I have talked about that, and if someone wants to call me a tunneler, 2 or 3 examples should be enough.

[ZazieR]

I agree that one shot should not of been used when it was, but its not a scumtell at all. Some people prefer to use one shot roles early, I try and use limited abilities by night two.

It was pointed out by many players that they would be busier this week. Porkens himself was also a player who had something this week.
Also, the game was just less than 4 days after starting. And he already killed a lurker.
Note that he also told that one of his reasons for shooting AFC was because AFC hadn't delivered his promised update.
So why not wait till AFC had posted more? It doesn't matter to me that it was day 1, but that it was done in less than four days. That makes it scummy to shoot a lurker. And, that he didn't shoot me as lurker makes it even worse.

The claim is odd, that one I will give you. Its nothing to lynch him over though by any means. Some roles are ambiguous though when you match up their name and ability, so it may of been fakeable. Porkens should full claim (is his role "Day Vig" or something else).

No, Porkens should not full-claim. In case he's telling the truth, it's time for the scum to guess if he's still has power or not. Porkens can prove tomorrow if he's a full day vig or not. No full-claim needed.
The timing of the claim is scummy. With his ':blam:', he made it obv that he was the one who shot. Had he done it afterwards that he had shot, I wouldn't see it as scummy. But he did it before the result was shown. Very scummy timing.

Im not sure why you even bring up three. Are you accusing him of buddying up to you or something like that?

As pointed out, meta reasons. Why does everybody think I'm accusing him of buddying up to me

The fact that you are railing on Porkens for being scum when he used a day vig to kill scum, who was also a gov (prevents lynch and day goes to night if IIRC), with no concrete evidence... wow.

That I didn't give evidence when pointing this out, doesn't mean I didn't have any.

[ZazieR]

I'm not saying a day one shot is bad, I just dont think it was the right time for it.

This. Why does nobody else question Porkens timing for a lurker kill?

[ZazieR]

Zaz, you weren't on my list because...well, I didn't think of it. No offence, but you aren't a leading wagon, and you haven't been, at least by comparison, as vocal for or against them, either. You weren't even close to the level of lurking that afatchick was, and you didn't promis a re-read and then fail to deliver. In regards to this:

Porkens who doesn't have a lurking Zazie in list of players who he was thinking about killing is very unlikely to be town.

What's your theory? That you and I are scumbuddies?

here you go
And my theory is that you are scum.

While we're at it, what was your reason for 'claiming' before the result was shown?

[ZazieR]

Re: Porkens - I'm inclined to believe the claim and am leaning towards believing he's likely town. Aside from the fact that he killed scum, I think the way he claimed strikes me as very town-ish too; I'm usually a sucker for unprovoked claims more often coming from town than scum, and his explanation for why he killed afatchic before afatchic got around to producing any content (Porkens had a strong level of anxiousness to actually USE his role) goes along with his urge to claim as well. I won't be supporting a Porkens-lynch anytime soon, if at all. I need to reread ZazieR's beef with Porkens because I don't think it makes much sense at this time.

Long story short: Anxiousness to kill and anxiousness to claim = likely Porkens-town.

Or he was anxiousness to claim, because he knew it would give him lots of townie points which is good for him as scum (<-- My thoughts)
This also applies if he's scum from a different scumgroup, and if he's from the same scumgroup, AFC couldn't give any information to us.

[ZazieR]

Have to leave soon, so just pointing out that I'm at post 243 for tomorrow.

[Kmd4390]

KMD: opinoins on VP?

KMD: Why can't there be intermediate levels of seriousness?

KMD: Where did your brain go this game?

Your case is based on me trying to get a reaction from plum. You're just as bad as charter if you think that makes me scum.

VP looks like his townie self. The only thing that bothers me is that he is suspicious of both you and Myko, which is a convenient position for scum to be in.

Seriousness is either there or it isn't. That's just how it works.

If you think all I have on you is that you wanted Plum's reaction, you haven't read the case. You've responded, so I know you've read it. Try again.

(I'll take the "as bad as Charter" thing as a compliment. He's a good player.)

As far as "painting a townie as scum" where do you see me pushing a porkens case?

You voted him for "rolefishing".

Basically, KMD's case also seems to hinge on "town can't make gambits," since apparently trying to get reactions out of players is scummy.

Yep, I just said that town doesn't make Gambits, right?

Don't make my case out to be built on things I don't believe. I know a good Gambit when I see it, and that wasn't one.

KMD says my motivation for voting Porkens for rolefishing was to push a case on a townie, who was doing the right thing. If that was my motivation, why didn't I actually make a case? Why would I POSSIBLY EVER claim that it was a joke vote? That makes no sense.

Then WHY are you still saying now that it was partially serious?

KMD claims my motivation to lie about joke-voting was... what? To evade pressure? That also makes no sense. Look at the timeframe there. There was NO information I could have gleaned that would have made me change my mind about so-called "pushing" porkens. I still think his reaction was suspicious. If I was pushing Porkens at all, why would I flake just because someone asked if I was serious?

It was obvious I was about to give you heat for the vote. So you tried to back off and got caught.

KMD claims my motivation for revealing that there was a modicum of seriousness in my vote was... THAT I HAD TO BE EITHER COMPLETELY SERIOUS OR COMPLETELY JOKING BECAUSE THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND. Apparently in KMD's black and white world, nobody can do something "kinda fishy." Either an action is totally town, or totally scum. Having any indecision means you are scum, because NOBODY has indecision.

If I had the time, I'd look at all games and show you that partially serious votes come from scum and inexperienced players.

By this point, if KMD is still pushing the same case, he's not playing as town.

Of course.

Marker: I have just now created a post that I may post later. This will serve as a reference point to when I actually typed that post. I've decided it is best not to post it until I have more information, so pending KMD and Mykonian's response, I'll withhold posting it until they have responded to my last few posts.

Is there a purpose for this post?

Kmd, you are tunnelling a lot on Zilla and it's over the same points again and again and again. The only really new thing you've added to the case is this Incog as potential partner accusation, which you yourself admit means nothing right now. If Zilla weren't in this game, who would you vote right now?

If she defends and I disagree with the defense, I'm going to counter her points and it may seem repetitive. That's how it works.

If not Zilla, I'd look at Plum or Llama. Neither of the two is playing to their town meta. I've mentioned this before.

This could mean that there are two scum groups, based upon SpyreX previous modded game.

Two groups? Why?

Based on this, I say that there's 50% chance he's scum

Those are good odds in mafia.

[ZazieR]

Two groups? Why?

Scum are coloured in red and have the name of their role included, but there is no name of the mafia.

[Kmd4390]

Two groups? Why?

Scum are coloured in red and have the name of their role included, but there is no name of the mafia.

Very interesting. In that game, afat would have simply flipped as "Governer".

I see your point.

[camn]

Basically, KMD's case also seems to hinge on "town can't make gambits," since apparently trying to get reactions out of players is scummy.

Yep, I just said that town doesn't make Gambits, right?

You MUST be being sarcastic here.......right?
Cuz I have seen you try "gambits" as town....

Don't make my case out to be built on things I don't believe. I know a good Gambit when I see it, and that wasn't one.

DO YOU????
I have also see you fail hugely at differentiating a good gambit from a poor one . .

By this point, if KMD is still pushing the same case, he's not playing as town.

Of course.

This MUST be you being sarcastic!
Cuz I have ALSO see you push a single crapcase for an entire game.... as town.
HOWEVER.. I would imagine you had learned from that.. so it could easily be coverup-scum-meta.

[SpyreX]

If you're gonna put chick in your name, don't be surprised when flavor says you're a girl

Kmd4390 (0):
Zazier (0):
Plum (0):
Llamafluff (1): Incognito
Porkens (0):
camn (0):

Mykonian (4): Zilla, VP Baltar, camn, Plum

charter (0):
Incognito (0):
Zilla (2): Charter, Kmd4390,
VP Baltar (1): Mykonian

With 11 alive, it is 6 to lynch.

Deadline: Thursday June 11th 10:30 PST

[mykonian]

guys, I'm of course very happy that a lot of people have their votes out, but I kind of know how this is going to end. Because we aren't playing like we have a deadline in a few days, and on this moment my bandwagon is big enough to make lynch me just before deadline.

and I fear that is going to happen. While I'm still very sure I haven't done anything that makes me more likely scum, if it continues this way, I'm going to get lynched.

I have voted delayed. This is by meta not a scumtell, and would only be a useful scumtell if scum didn't comment on the game till then: something I did. So I think I can argue succesfully that this is not something you should vote me for.

My case on zilla has been said to be "crap". Some have also misunderstood the purpose of the use of meta. Zilla's starting play, with a lot of weak cases, that sound serious, after that again saying it was not serious, etc. is scummy. It doesn't help town, as the cases are just as easily made on town as on scum, and it pressurizes the others all into defending. The fact that she definately acted like this in Merrin, is an added thing. The fact that in her town games, this can't be found made it more solid. I think one can do worse on page 5.

So, please unvote, or tell me what I still haven't defended. Because I hear here and there that there are some holes in my defense...

[Incognito]

^^^

this last post from mykonian seems very sincere and townish to me. I actually didn't even realize how close the deadline is. I have some things to respond to which I'll take the time to right now, but I'm getting really cold feet about a mykonian-lynch.

[Incognito]

@ mykonian's 275: I don't think calling attention to one's town meta is something that is more likely to be done by scum as opposed to town in defense of oneself. Also, I don't think the town games you looked into are very good comparisons since in each one, Zilla's been a replacement. Therefore, there's no way to determine whether or not Zilla would actually use a so-called Spaghetti Strategy to kick a game off because, according to what I've read, I haven't seen a town game of hers that she played completely from scratch; she seems to replace in a lot. If you have a sample of games of hers that strongly SUGGEST that she wouldn't use this strategy as town, then that might help your case against her but as it stands, it doesn't look like that's the case. So no.

I just have somewhat of a gut read that myk is town. There is not a whole lot to back it up. Its just a mix of my gut scummy reads and him having a similar read.

I doubt this gut read of yours came about back on page 4, right (which was when this 'switch' from myk-hate to fanboy happened)?

I disagree with how its used, thats not something that makes him someone to lynch, just reckless. I still kind of want him to roleclaim though. With a role more descriptive then "mafia" shown already, something just flipping "One shot day vig" is odd.

What's odd about it? This is a town versus werewolves set-up. The mod called this particular werewolf (afactchic) a Forest Wolf Governor. Aside from the "Forest Wolf" prefix, a Governor is a pretty standard role. I don't see why Porkens would need to claim any further than he has already.

You were making it out that I supported their lynches equally, which is not true. The point I was making about Zilla's wagon being the leading one at the time is this: why would I, as scum, not vote for Zilla's wagon that was gaining steam when it wouldn't have been suspicious at all to do so? Even though mykon was second wagon, wouldn't the obvious play there for scum have been to go after the wagon most likely to lynch in the shortest possible time?

Huh?

You pretty clearly stated that you support the case against Zilla, you ended up voting for mykonian, and you said that you think the two of them are scum together. That pretty clearly seems to suggest that you supported their lynches equally. If you think two people are equally likely to be scum, what could

possibly

make you prefer one lynch over the other?

Major FoS: VP Baltar

The other portion is WIFOM, and I don't care to respond to it.

So, Incog, your view into my mindset is wrong.

Fair enough. We arrived at the same conclusion just utilizing different routes.

Zilla's 284 is noted. I do agree that Plum has done a fair share of parroting in this game.

Sigh. I'll break this into a separate post as this one's getting kind of long.