Mini 167 - Les Miserables Mafia. Game over!

[Mr Stoofer]

While I agree that EmpTyger indeed looks pretty bad after the Thenardier claim, I think the Valjean claim can't be ignored either.

I also am interested in hearing from Mr. Stoofer in particular about both claims

- after all, he's the one who claims to have the inside track on who the scum roles are. Particularly if he nails Valjean as potentially scum.

Sorry but Valjean is not the scum group identified in my role PM, although he could be an SK, although the consensus seems to be that it is unlikely that there is more than one killing group. But I find EmpTyger's doctor claim really troubling. I want him to explain the theme justification for him being a doctor. Aleyn's role PM's are never as simple as "you are the doctor".

Stoofer: Could you explain what part of [208] is “particularly scummy”?

It was the post as a whole, but I particulalrly didn't like the way you were flinging around semi-confident assertions about who the mafia were.

[Mr Stoofer]

Just to clarify my previous post:

Valjean is not [in] the scum group identified in my role PM, although he could be an SK

This is pure speculation on my part and not based on anything in my role PM.

[EmpTyger]

Let me try one more time. J-O-K-E. Joke. They’re often told on April Fools. People generally laugh at them.

I am *not* Thenardier. I MADE UP THE THENARDIER CLAIM AS AN APRIL FOOLS JOKE. Because I thought it was funny. Which I still think is funny. Which is why I reprised it prior to my claim. Because I still thought it was funny, and I thought if people had another shot at the joke they might get it the second time. I’m playing this game to have fun. I thought others would appreciate the joke.

I AM NOT THENARDIER. It was a joke. It is a joke. J-O-K-E.

I can’t follow the logic “he [made an obvious] joke about being mafia” -> “he is mafia” that has been used- and don’t see how other players can either. I’ve only heard 2 possible sinister motives given, and I still don't think either makes sense:

MeMe’s “to create confusion”- and I feel the confusion has been brought about by the MeMe’s insistence on taking what is obviously a joke as literally true.
gootentag’s “he’s a scummy Valjean”- which seems ludicrous. What would I pretend to be a character that LML had just admitted he suspected was mafia, and which others *including myself* had voiced suspicion of? Or what would I gain by then honestly claiming my own character when Stoofer still possibly having knowledge of mafia characters?


Stoofer:

<snip>I want him to explain the theme justification for him being a doctor. Aleyn's role PM's are never as simple as "you are the doctor".

It wasn’t, but I can’t exactly quote the PM. (And talk about outguessing the mod...)

Valjean removes people from deadly situations such as abuse (Cosette), execution (Javert), death at the barricade (Marius), and being crushed by a cart (Fauchelevent). I save lives.

I would like to point out that this is a must stronger connection between character and role than LML gave for Cosette.

Stoofer: Could you explain what part of [208] is “particularly scummy”?

It was the post as a whole, but I particulalrly didn't like the way you were flinging around semi-confident assertions about who the mafia were.

I think all would agree that, regardless of my role, I won’t be sticking around much longer. So I saw no reason to take observations to the grave with me. For example, I was not sure anyone else would notice the point about Eponine, and thought it potentially important enough to bring up.


vikingfan:

<snip>As for why I'm voting you, it's pretty much all the points already made.

For the benefit of the members of the town who will actually be around tomorrow, could you clarify further?

Plus, why the heck are you FIRST claiming Thenardier, and then claiming Valjean? Why not just make one claim?

Compare [218] to [195]. Notice any odd similarities?
<sigh>
The Thenardier claim is a *joke*.

If, however, you are scum, then that indicates to me that she's semi-clear-in a game this small, it's not likely that someone would deliberately sacrifice a mafia partner.

If I happen to be scum I am willing to concede that MeMe is innocent.


MeMe:

EmpTyger is so drippily scummy that it's incredible to me that he's not been lynched yet.

Please vote him.

Because you don’t have a sense of humor, *I*’m mafia???

Let me add to my reasons against you:
6) Being awfully anxious to rush a lynch of a claimed doctor.

[And I apologize: I shouldn’t have singled you out for not having a sense of humor...]


gootentag:
As stated above, why on earth would I do that: to maximize my chances of getting people to suspect me? You’re saying that you honestly believe that it is more likely that I went through all that trouble to lie about a claim that people would find suspicious than my actual role? That that’s somehow more likely than my making a simple April Fool’s joke?

Tell me what I could have gained with your motive, or with MeMe’s motive, or with any other motive besides humor.


LML:
Was looking back through the thread and this caught my eye, and I was too amused by the irony.

The witty girl comment was a failed attempt at humor. Please disregard.

Just a few notes after reading.. A game like this would definately have Cosette as a character. Not only that, Emp, but Viking ALSO validated Cosette in the game by spouting out his mason mumbo jumbo before this started. No one, in a matter of MANY posts, have counterclaimed Cosette.

I am not fortunate enough to have anyone come forward with validation, but wouldn’t you agree that Valjean would definitely be in a game like this, and no one has counterclaimed Cosette? (Although Krishna admittedly hasn’t yet posted...)


Krishna:
<waits for crosspost>

[Changling bob]

OK, I wish to publicly appologise to MeMe for the remark in my last post. You may have notied a small hint of negativity in the rest of my post, and that may have spilt into what should have been a gentle prod in the 'what are you doing' direction.

Next, the comment on my lurking, I think by LML. From Wednesday to Friday, I was on a trip (which I think Aelyn was aware of), and thought I may have got an internet connection. I didn't. I just haven't managed to get online recently all that much, mostly as I'm currently on half term from school, whereas normally I would be on most lunchtimes to see what's happened.

On to the important stuff:

EmpTyger: I am wary of your claim as a doctor. Given the pro-town claims, the scum roles must be ridiculously strong to balance out. However, for now my suspicions are elsewhere.

MeMe: As other people have pointed out, you have been inconsistant with your responses to speculation, and have jumped on EmpTyger after the deadline got put on, while before that you were posting in a following the joke kinda way.

vikingfan: What's with you're voting EmpTyger and then unvoting him straight away?

LordKrishna: You saying about vikingfan dying overnight. Some thoughts on this: If what was said earlier in the thread is correct (I don't know the book), Eponine dies when she finds Cosette. If this is right, and Eponine is mafia, the oddness of ability vikingfan's ability disappears, as it is pro-town. This then leads to more of the "Is town too good?" problems, but there you go. I'm also a little unsure if vikingfan has to pick a person to send as Eponine, or if Eponine is just sent.

Finally, if vikingfan does wake up dead tomorrow, it could just be he was the mafia target.

[meaty bit]
LML: I shall happily remove lines from EmpTyger's list until all of them are gone. As stated in my last post, my vote stays on you until all of them are answered. For continuity, removed critisims will be highlighted in red.

<snip>How does that explain any of your other behavior, any of the points of suspicion that have been raised against you? Let me list them again:

1) At the beginning of the game, you thought Javert was mafia. Later you say that your role leads you to suspect Javert is not mafia.

2) You refuse to answer questions about (1), claiming that you do not wish to reveal details of your role.
2a) You still refuse after your role is revealed.
2b) What you have revealed does not contain any reason for (1) or (2).

3) You adamantly refuse to reveal any details of your role,

but unprompted bring up information derived from your role as well as the claim that you are Cosette.

3a) You act though Cosette is so strong a claim that no one should suspect you, yet did not make this claim earlier, when initially pressured about your role.

4) You repeatedly lurk when the game is, according to you, going in the wrong direction. However, you do not attempt to move the direction of the game in another direction.
4a) ...except to attack those who are skeptical of you based on the unanswered (1) through (4).
5) You vote vikingfan immediately after vikingfan unvotes you, announcing that he will test you tonight. If you are telling the truth, why suspect him? <snip>

And why do you think that myself and EmpTyger are mafia? Vikingfan and me I could understand, or EmpTyger and [insert not me or vikingfan here], but my role has been verified by vikingfan, and will be confirmed as soon as either of us dies (if we do).
[/meaty bit]

So allow me once again to say sorry MeMe, and

confirm vote: LML

And @EmpTyger: I nearly crossposted you. Yay for firefox tabs!

[vikingfan]

Why did I unvote? Easy-I forgot to unvote my previous person I was voting for. Simple as that.

I'm still not buying the whole 'joke thing'. Plus, having a doc seems ridiculously strong for the town.

I just send Eponine.

[gootentag]

A townie cult/masonry is also ridiculously strong for the town. So is an unkillable Cosette. Doctor, however, seems to be one of the conventional roles I for one have never seen a game without. Furthermore, as nobody has yet refuted the name-claim, I am more prone to believe EmTyger's claim since Mr. Stoofer has also stated that Jean Veljean is at least not the scum he was hoping to weed out. A Les Mis based game would almost have to have a Valjean. That was again the basis for the statement about EmpTyger possibly being a scum Valjean. Flavorwise, I guess I can see how it might fit as a doctor per the description he wrote:

Valjean removes people from deadly situations such as abuse (Cosette), execution (Javert), death at the barricade (Marius), and being crushed by a cart (Fauchelevent). I save lives.

and since nobody has come foreward with a counterclaim as Valjean, I am prone to believe EmpTyger at this point, which seems to be back at square one.

[LoudmouthLee]

C-Bob. These are your issues? It seems that you're obviously NOT paying attention.

Let's go down your petty little list and contibue to delve into things... Since, of course, reading is DIFFICULT for you:

I'll say things much clearer.

I'll just "delete" the red ones, if that's OK with you, skippy.

2) You refuse to answer questions about (1), claiming that you do not wish to reveal details of your role.
2a) You still refuse after your role is revealed.
2b) What you have revealed does not contain any reason for (1) or (2).

What I have revealed HAS really explained things. It's not my fault that you're not reading!

-I'm un-nightkillable. That means, if I get the mafia to take a shot at me, guess what? THE MAFIA DOESN'T KILL ANYONE. That's reason enought for #1) Me hiding a role this powerful and #3) My refusal to give any more info, even when pressured by you and Emp. Emp's making a fine case on why he ISNT mafia. You're just adding demerits.

4) You repeatedly lurk when the game is, according to you, going in the wrong direction. However, you do not attempt to move the direction of the game in another direction.
4a) ...except to attack those who are skeptical of you based on the unanswered (1) through (4).

-If by repeatedly you mean having 7 times the posts you have. It's called "looking for tells" Sometimes, you can't listen correctly when all you are doing is speaking. That's the major flaw of some players. They don't listen (points to CB)

5) You vote vikingfan immediately after vikingfan unvotes you, announcing that he will test you tonight. If you are telling the truth, why suspect him?

Because he VOTED for me, someone HE WAS LOOKING FOR! Makes me wonder... Marius posted a vote on Cosette, which, if you think about it, is kinda against the flow of the play.

Emp, I'm very close to unvoting you, and changing my vote to CB.

[LordKrishna]

Good God, why doesn't the mafiascum site notify me when there are 15 posts waiting around?!?!? I have it in my "Watched List". Apologies for the delay...

Valjean removes people from deadly situations such as abuse (Cosette), execution (Javert), death at the barricade (Marius), and being crushed by a cart (Fauchelevent). I save lives.

This does actually make perfect sense to me now, and his point that there would HAVE to be a Jean Valjean in this game is well-taken. I would agree -- the caveat here, of course, is that we are hearing this from Jean ValJean, who cites (as precedent), the previous claim of LML as Cosette, which is the character MOST likely to be paired with Jean Valjean in the case of a Good-Guys-are-really-the-scum game... (I hope noone got confused by that idiotically verbose sentence -- if so, ask).

Further, this adds yet ANOTHER powerful Pro-Town role. Is there no end to this?!

So I am still not unequivocally sure that LML and EmpTyger are both Pro-Town, though I'm not really all that suspicious of either...

LordKrishna: You saying about vikingfan dying overnight. ... Eponine dies when she finds Cosette. If this is right, and Eponine is mafia, the oddness of ... vikingfan's ability disappears, as it is pro-town. This then leads to more of the "Is town too good?" problems, but there you go.

This is what worries me, again. I am wondering WTF powers the Mafia have that balance out those of Town!!

Finally, if vikingfan does wake up dead tomorrow, it could just be he was the mafia target.

My implication was that if vikingfan winds up as the Mafia target, it is to prevent him from using his power to send Eponine to find Cosette -- a fact that would, to me, imply that they have a vested interest in not allowing him to "send Eponine". I was insinuating that if Eponine were scum, this would be consistent play (and self-preserving, perhaps?!

EmpTyger is so drippily scummy that it's incredible to me that he's not been lynched yet.

Please explain to me why this is true. He honestly just doesn't seem 'drippily scummy' (I love this phrase, btw!) to me. His attempted joke, I think, really can't be explained by other means, as I can't think of a non-idiotic reason for the false-Thenardier claim, followed by a JVJ claim (before you counter with "Well, maybe Thenardier is the REAL claim", I put it to you that noone has come forward to disprove that ET is JVJ, an essential role in Les Mis Mafia...).

LoudmouthLee, I'm not clear on your reasoning here:

Marius posted a vote on Cosette, which, if you think about it, is kinda against the flow of the play.

I think I may have brought this up earlier. If I didn't, I meant to, but then feared people might say I'm "playing like a newb" by loooking for evidence in the text, rather than the game itself (which this game, people actually are doing, making it more enjoyable -- I've gone back to re-reading the book -- thanks!). I agree with this part, but then, you wrote this:

Emp, I'm very close to unvoting you, and changing my vote to CB.

Surely you meant vikingfan...? You talk about Marius, then move on to vote for (the claimed) Enjolras. This confuses me a bit.

-K

P.S. Again, people are getting a wee bit insult-y in their language... Let's try to keep it civil, shall we? It's more fun.

[LordKrishna]

Good God, why doesn't the mafiascum site notify me when there are 15 posts waiting around?!?!? I have it in my "Watched List". Apologies for the delay...

Valjean removes people from deadly situations such as abuse (Cosette), execution (Javert), death at the barricade (Marius), and being crushed by a cart (Fauchelevent). I save lives.

This does actually make perfect sense to me now, and his point that there would HAVE to be a Jean Valjean in this game is well-taken. I would agree -- the caveat here, of course, is that we are hearing this from Jean ValJean, who cites (as precedent), the previous claim of LML as Cosette, which is the character MOST likely to be paired with Jean Valjean in the case of a Good-Guys-are-really-the-scum game... (I hope noone got confused by that idiotically verbose sentence -- if so, ask).

Further, this adds yet ANOTHER powerful Pro-Town role. Is there no end to this?!

So I am still not unequivocally sure that LML and EmpTyger are both Pro-Town, though I'm not really all that suspicious of either...

LordKrishna: You saying about vikingfan dying overnight. ... Eponine dies when she finds Cosette. If this is right, and Eponine is mafia, the oddness of ... vikingfan's ability disappears, as it is pro-town. This then leads to more of the "Is town too good?" problems, but there you go.

This is what worries me, again. I am wondering WTF powers the Mafia have that balance out those of Town!!

Finally, if vikingfan does wake up dead tomorrow, it could just be he was the mafia target.

My implication was that if vikingfan winds up as the Mafia target, it is to prevent him from using his power to send Eponine to find Cosette -- a fact that would, to me, imply that they have a vested interest in not allowing him to "send Eponine". I was insinuating that if Eponine were scum, this would be consistent play (and self-preserving, perhaps?!

EmpTyger is so drippily scummy that it's incredible to me that he's not been lynched yet.

Please explain to me why this is true. He honestly just doesn't seem 'drippily scummy' (I love this phrase, btw!) to me. His attempted joke, I think, really can't be explained by other means, as I can't think of a non-idiotic reason for the false-Thenardier claim, followed by a JVJ claim (before you counter with "Well, maybe Thenardier is the REAL claim", I put it to you that noone has come forward to disprove that ET is JVJ, an essential role in Les Mis Mafia...).

LoudmouthLee, I'm not clear on your reasoning here:

Marius posted a vote on Cosette, which, if you think about it, is kinda against the flow of the play.

I think I may have brought this up earlier. If I didn't, I meant to, but then feared people might say I'm "playing like a newb" by loooking for evidence in the text, rather than the game itself (which this game, people actually are doing, making it more enjoyable -- I've gone back to re-reading the book -- thanks!). I agree with this part, but then, you wrote this:

Emp, I'm very close to unvoting you, and changing my vote to CB.

Surely you meant vikingfan...? You talk about Marius, then move on to vote for (the claimed) Enjolras. This confuses me a bit.

-K

P.S. Again, people are getting a wee bit insult-y in their language... Let's try to keep it civil, shall we? It's more fun.

[LordKrishna]

Sorry for the double-post. I am pretty sure I only hit the post button once. At least this time I didn't cross-post, though. That's something.

(OOG: Does anyone know what happened to the site a few days back? I saw it mentioned, but not explained.)

-K

[MeMe]

I'm

Valjean. I was rather hoping that ET would be lynched because of his obvious scumminess rather than me having to counter-claim – but oh well. Though I have a pretty good chance of dying tonight, I think dead scum on day one is a pretty good trade.

I'm not going to waste too much more time trying to prove what I was pretty sure about after his first claim...and absolutely positive of after his second (extremely clever) claim. It was a no-lose gamble from his perspective...either JV's not in the game and he skates with his false claim or he forces the real Jean Valjean out. And no, I'm not going to claim role mechanics.

So. Lynch him. There should be no hemming and hawing about this from anyone other than EmpTyger. Look with suspicion on any who come to his defense and/or don't vote him immediately. If I DO get lynched today, put those who vote me at the top of your lynching list -- right after EmpTyger, of course.

After all, you'd have me dead to rights tomorrow if I were the liar who got ET lynched -- so this would make an extremely silly move for me if I were scum. But, like I said, if EmpTyger and any cohorts convince the town players among you to take me out first, don't you

dare

let them talk themselves out of culpability tomorrow.

[LordKrishna]

This is a very good reason to think him scum, if there's a counter-claim. I still don't see why he would have made the Thenardier claim, if not as a joke, though I suppose that could certainly be unrelated to his culpability as scum...

Defend yourself or die.

FOS: EmpTyger.

-K

P.S. I would just like to point out -- I think it's interesting that in the game, the Valjean claim ends up killing a man, rather than saving him. Dripping in irony, I'd say...

[Mr Stoofer]

WARNING: This post is more of a me thinking out loud/stream of conciousness/random musings than anythig else.

I have some problems with MeMe's claim to be Valjean:

1

. Is EmpTyger really such an idiot that he would claim to be Valjean when he is not? He must have known that Valjean was in the game. A false claim by EmpTyger doesn't seem to make any sense (especially after he himself pointed out that this game included some quite minor roles, ie Grantaire) [But see 6A below].

2

. Like others, I find EmpTyger's flavour justification for Valjean=doctor compelling. I have nothing from MeMe to balance against this.

3

. I am concerned that (a) this is a very small game and (b) MeMe is an incredibly good player. I am concerned that she has calculated a way for her side to win even if she is lynched tomorrow (for not being Valjean).

On the other hand:

4

. Despite what I said at 3 above, I can't actually work out how a false claim to Valjean is is a good strategy for MeMe (see also 6B below).

5

. MeMe's claim does at least explain why she was surprisingly strong in her condemnation of EmpTyger even after he said (quite convincingly I thought at the time) that he was joking (a point also made by Lord Krishna at [232]). (Then again her condemnation is equally consistent with the MeMe=scum theory).

6

. Before MeMe claimed, EmpTyger was already very close to being lynched at deadline. Therefore:

6A

. EmpyTyger may have felt driven to a desperate gambit (ie claiming Valjean/doctor). Indeed, he might have thought that he had little chance of survival and that the best he could do would be to have a crack at getting the real Valjean lynched. Or maybe his idea was to force the real Valjean to claim, so that his mafia buddy/buddies could kill him, guessing that Valjean would be a power role.

6B

. EmpTyger probably would have been lynched even if MeMe had not come out and claimed Valjean. So if MeMe is mafia making a false claim, it would seem to be putting her neck in the noose without gaining any benefit for her. I can't see her doing that.

Well after all that I think I am going to cross my fingers and

Vote EmpTyger

. Point 6A is the best explanantion I can think of for either EmpTyger or MeMe making a false claim to Valjean. It also cancels out point 1 and point 6B cancels out point 3. As for point 2, it seems to be somehting that EmpTyger thought of himself anyway.

edit:

Just read this through and it occured to me that point 6B raises the question: why would MeMe claim Valjean if she

was

Valjean? Oh well, I still think 6A is the best I am going to be able to work out before deadline.

[EmpTyger]

I do not have time to respond more fully than this now, but wanted to say something in response to MeMe's counterclaim before the deadline hit, in case it was enforced. Thought given that Krishna also had access problems, and posting has picked up, and the day will likely end naturally soon one way or another, can you relax the deadline, Aelyn? I will try to get to a computer again as soon as I can.


Responding to Stoofer's arguments, just because they're most organized:

4) MeMe was dead by tomorrow anyway- after my claim is verified by my death, how would she avoid a lynch? And as a doctor, the mafia almost has to nightkill me if the lynch fails, and so my claim would be verifiable tomorrow morning one way or the other. Once Krishna showed up it was definite that there weren't enough others who would lynch me. LML seemed like he might unvote. MeMe had nothing to lose by counterclaiming, but if mafia, a lot to gain- an extra nightkill.

5) No! Because she was just as insisting on lynching me *before* I claimed Valjean! At that time her only evidence was some sinister motive to my April Fool’s joke, and haven't I said enough about why her logic then is ridiculous? Her only evidence (beyond the counterclaim) has been some "obvious scumminess" she won’t speak about. Compare her posts, before and after I claim Valjean ([201]), and after ([221]). She was just as insistently vague in one as in the other. From her point of view, she had no reason to be before, because I hadn’t yet claimed “her” role!

6B) See (4). She doesn't lose anything by putting her neck in the noose, either.

[Mr Stoofer]

Your arguments don't work for me because I do not think that MeMe would have been a certain lynch if you had turned out to be Valjean, prior to her claiming to be Valjean.
[Although I see the force of your point 5]

[MeMe]

Stoofer - to answer the "6B" question about why I claimed...

There were only three votes on EmpTyger. LmL said that he was very close to unvoting EmpTyger. If he'd have done so, ET wouldn't have the votes necessary to lynch at deadline.

There were also several "well he's not been counterclaimed..." comments that made waiting almost impossible. If I'd not made sure of his lynch today (when I know he's scum), I'd not only be acting irresponsibly in a game this small, but I'd also have a hard time convincing anyone of my role tomorrow. Only my overnight death would have cinched his lynch day two, but I couldn't bank on being targeted and, even if I were, there'd still have been quite a bit of cursing my name at not coming forward on day one.

[LoudmouthLee]

My vote stays. Emp, you were pushing really hard for my lynch. If you turn out to be scum, well... It just further proves what I've been trying to say this entire time. Seems my scumdar is rather good. Let's get CB next

[vikingfan]

My vote also stays.

When is the deadline, BTW?

[MeMe]

The deadline passed a little more than 5 hours ago.

[gootentag]

I'm assuming at this point the deadline is lifted like Aelyn said would happen if conversation picked up.

[MeMe]

and since nobody has come foreward with a counterclaim as Valjean, I am prone to believe EmpTyger at this point, which seems to be back at square one.

Update, please?

[MeMe]

And I believe

this

is the current count:

EmpTyger

(4)

LoudmouthLee, MeMe, vikingfan, Mr Stoofer

LoudmouthLee

(1)

Changling Bob

MeMe

(1)

Emptyger

Not voting: gootentag, LordKrishna

[LoudmouthLee]

I find it especially interesting the CB hasn't voted for Emp yet...

[EmpTyger]

Glad I'm still alive, though given how precarious it is I don't expect to stay so much longer, but I'm at least trading for 1 mafia.

Sorry again for the absence earlier today. I'm typing up some final thoughts now- if gootentag, bob, or Krishna are wavering, please give me just a little longer!

[MeMe]

I have to admit I'm a little bothered by the fact that an announced deadline has come and gone without confirmation from the mod on whether or not it stands (though the thread title still has us as under deadline).

Please don't let EmpTyger talk himself out of his rightful place in the noose. As I said before, I'm looking very carefully at those who have commented since my counterclaim without voting him. No reason for delay. It's him or me...by our actions in the game before the claim/counter-claim, I think it's not an over-generalization to say that he was more suspected than I.

gootentag -- why haven't you voted for EmpTyger?
LK -- why haven't you voted for EmpTyger?

In fairness to Changling bob, he's not posted since I claimed -- so that could be his reason for not voting yet. We'll see what he does when he gets here.