Open 147: Vengeful 5P - Game Over before 792

[ODDin]

Hmm. So, it's myself, Khamisa and Para.

I don't like Khamisa's play one bit. Problem is, she's playing the exact same way in another game I'm playing with her, which leads me to believe she just plays like this generally.
If Khamisa was scum playing generally poorly, I'd expect her to hammer charter when the possibility arose.

Para... well, he's actually voted for everyone but me during the game. This might be because he's trying to appear to have accused the scum as well during the day, yet eventually he lynched a townie.
Also, I did ask charter a question, which is to explain why my argument was full of logical fallacies, according to him - so there was still something to gain before the deadline.

Thus, I am somewhat leaning towards voting para right now, but I don't want to do this just yet. After all, I might be wrong, and then I'd just give Khamisa a quick victory.

[zwetschenwasser]

Please note that charter is still alive.

[Khamisa]

Wait. I'm really confused. Shouldn't charter be dead?

[zwetschenwasser]

Why?

[charter]

I got three votes. I opted to kill Empking. PARA IS HIS PARTNER!

[ODDin]

Err, as far as I understood, charter was lynched, and in his act of vengeance he killed empking.

[charter]

I can 100% absolutely promise Para is Empking's partner. Believe it or not, it's the truth! Goodbye cruel world!

[Paradoxombie]

Yeah Charter AND Empking should be dead, I'm fairly sure that's how this gametype works.

Okay I'm gonna try to defend myself against charter's "argument" but I've had to make it myself basically because I don't feel he really has. I voted a townie and didin't find empking particularly scummy But ODDin has done the same things. At least one of us must be town, and possibly both. I'm assuming my vote his is reason for suspecting me because it was when I voted that he seemed to start suspecting me.

I agree with you ODDin, that Khamisa's playstyle is the reason for her remoteness from the game. One thing I still see against her is her unwillingness to vote charter. Since charter was a townie and was gonna kill the goon, it might make sense to be careful. It was also the first time she was actually motivated to present an opinion since she'd last fos'd charter and Empking. And she never explained her vote besides as a gut feeling. I definitely think choosing Empking as scum over charter a little too good of a gut feeling.

I can 100% absolutely promise Para is Empking's partner. Believe it or not, it's the truth! Goodbye cruel world!

You're wrong and it makes me think you just got Empking by luck.

[charter]

This isn't a game of luck. I killed Empking because he is scum (obvious if you read the damn thread) not because my tea leaves told me to. It's also obvious Para is Empking's partner, and I hope Khamisa and ODDin can see this as well.

[ODDin]

This game is sliding downhill like... well, I can't think up a suitably vivid metaphor, but pretty darn fast.
Can anyone explain me why charter isn't dead? Does anyone understand by what rules the game is currently running?

[zwetschenwasser]

Ah yes. Charter, Ashkaten angel, has also died.

[Paradoxombie]

So, Khamisa, what are you thinking?

[Khamisa]

I'm thinking I'm going to commit a reread and see what I think.

[Khamisa]

So here are the results of my reread focusing on ODDin and Paradoxombie of course, and then Empking for relations.

Oh well. vote: empking
Although I really have no idea what's the whole empking lynching thing.

I personally like to think that scum usually "random vote" their scum buddies, but this is a very weak tell and it's not very reliable.

Vote:ODDin

because I am in another game with him.

Now that we know that Empking was scum, could this be an attempt by Para to derail charter's idea of policy lynching Empking?

Err... do we really want to put someone on L-1 so early in the game?

unvote: empking
FoS: charter

This is especially suspicious now that we know Emp is scum. It looks like ODDin was trying to avoid the early demise of his buddy.

I think it's odd the way Charter asked for an Empking lynch and ODDin provided a vote, but then unvotes in reaction when Charter votes also as would be expected. Wouldn't you expect Charter to follow through with his own plan and therfeore put someone at L-1, Oddin?

This is a good point by Para in reference to his earlier vote on Empking. It looks like his reaction was a little overboard due to the fact that he knew charter wished to lynch Empking.

No. This is what I was trying to do. Pick any player (in this case, Empking) and wagon them to L-1. See reactions (in this case it was ODDin who made a reaction, the unvote). Then, pick another person, and put them at L-1, and gauge that same player's (ODDin) reaction to that other wagon. If the reaction is different, then that's a HUGE red flag.

The players chosen were arbitrary since it's the beginning of the game. Is it a foolproof way of catching scum? No, but if it works, it's a HUGE tell if the reactions are different.

charter made a good point here. ODDin's reaction varied little between Para and Emp, so unless he's playing a good lie, he's probably not scum.

unvote, Vote:charter I also think you're acting too defensive. The way you voted Empking was odd

Here is another post where someone is trying to defend Empking, but this time it's from Para.

A lot of Page 3 both Para and ODDin appear to defend Empking, but really their just rebuttaling against charter's bad case.

This is some really poor logic. I understand that if Empking is lynched and he is town, then he can vig town. You completely discount the possibility of Empking being scum, why is this?

This is another good point by charter.

Empking, you may be alot more active than Khamisa, but you've been pretty silent about your own opinions. You OMGUS voted charter but besides that, have done little but defend yourself.

unvote, vote:Empking

This is a really big town point for Paradoxombie. If him and Emp were partners, I don't think Para would risk voting Empking, especially with a player whose thoughts were unknown (aka me)

On the other hand, Para really flipped from charter to Empking. He may have thought Empking's scumminess was becoming more obvious and was going to bus him to look town.

I'm really confused why charter and ODDin thought that only the three townies could lynch scum. When I read the wiki on it (to see how the game was run and why zwet thought charter was alive) there was a case where scum would go on the other scum's wagon to look superiorly town and therefore win the game.

Alright, I don't think we're gonna gain much more before deadline. Everyone has stated how they feel.

Unvote, Vote: Charter

This is the other town point against Paradoxombie. Initially in this game, he was against charter's case. Then, he flipped to Empking. Now, without little more insight into either case, he switches back to charter. He pushed for a lynch when clearly all he needed to do was not lynch for a win if he was scum.

ODDin, on the other hand, didn't vote, and was apparently looking towards this "mafia wins at deadline" win.

It is lynch.
Well, darn.

This is extremely suspicious, seeing how he was voting for charter yet unhappy to see his lynch.That makes absolutely no sense.

So, by this, I believe that ODDin is much more suspicious than Para, but I'm not going to vote in case Para is scum and quicklynches. I want both of your opinions first.

[zwetschenwasser]

Where did Oddin go?

[ODDin]

I'm here, don't worry. I'll have to think a bit more on this, but I'll reply to some of Khamisa's points.

It looks like his [that is, mine] reaction was a little overboard due to the fact that he knew charter wished to lynch Empking.

As I've said, I thought the lynch on empking idea was mainly a joke. It was good RVS stuff, but I didn't actually expect charter to continue this line of thought.

ODDin, on the other hand, didn't vote, and was apparently looking towards this "mafia wins at deadline" win.

I didn't change my vote because I felt charter was the most suspicious player and thus wanted to lynch him. I saw that there was still enough time to the deadline, so I didn't feel the need to lynch somebody I found less suspicious just for the sake of lynching anyone at all. If we had come to the deadline with still no lynch in sight, I wouldv'e, of course, voted for somebody with 2 votes in order to lynch him. I might be lying, of course, but there were still something like 3 days to the deadline when para hammered charter - plenty of time for me to change my vote if I wanted to.

This is extremely suspicious, seeing how he was voting for charter yet unhappy to see his lynch.That makes absolutely no sense.

It really makes no sense to me why this makes no sense to you. This has been said after charter said he's town during twilight. I saw no reason to think he's lying during the twilight of his own lynch. As far as I was concerned, it was as if zwet said he's town.
If he were scum, I'm guessing he'd say "bah, go scum" during the twilight - it's not like it matters at that point.

[zwetschenwasser]

MOAR ACTIVITY PLZ

[Khamisa]

Well, I can see how you can take it both ways.

[Paradoxombie]

This is extremely suspicious, seeing how he was voting for charter yet unhappy to see his lynch.That makes absolutely no sense.

It really makes no sense to me why this makes no sense to you. This has been said after charter said he's town during twilight. I saw no reason to think he's lying during the twilight of his own lynch. As far as I was concerned, it was as if zwet said he's town.
If he were scum, I'm guessing he'd say "bah, go scum" during the twilight - it's not like it matters at that point.

Okay look:

Is that a lynch?

Kill Empking

if it is.

italicized for

emphasis

. Charter suggests here that he's not sure that he is dead. Even if you knew that we were in twilight, charter didn't seem sure. If he truly wasn't then why would you assume he'd drop all scumplay? After you pointed out that it was a lynch and we discussed it, scum would know that lying would be pointless. But charters post clearly shows that he was not sure. It looks like a slip to me accepting charter's word so quickly, because scum are never in doubt about alignment.

I'm seeing a decent number of point against ODDin.

fos:

ODDin

[ODDin]

Well, I can count, and I knew we had three votes on him, and since it's an open setup, I knew lynch was settled already. So yes, I believed him. If you want to think it's a Freudian slip of sorts... well, I can't really say anything on the matter other than "no, it wasn't".

However, you seem to disregard the fact that I also brought up an argument against you, para (post 150, top of page 7). You replied to charter, but you didn't at all address my point - although you clearly read the post, as you selectively replied to the part about Khamisa.

[ODDin]

Also, para, you didn't say anything about me and my behaviour prior to Khamisa's post - not during the twilight discussion, not during the beginning of D2. Yet all of Khamisa's points are relevant to things I've said during twilight at the latest. Yesterday, you said I was your most likely candidate to be town. You brought up arguments against Khamisa in post 157 and didn't say anything about me.

Then, after Khamisa's post 163, I've earned a FoS - more so than Khamisa, apparently. Now, with all due respect to Khamisa, you've been paying attention to the game all along and obviously knew what was going on. It's hard for me to believe that you couldn't see none of Khamisa's points before, to a level that it brought me from "most likely to be town" to "most likely to be scum", until she came and "opened your eyes".
Instead, what I is you suddenly changing your mind and following Khamisa's argument. Why? Because you're scum, and you need one of us townies to vote for the other townie. Yet you see that I'm way too careful, and am also somewhat suspicious of you. Khamisa, however, is more absentminded, and is also bringing up an argument against the me, the other townie. So you see there are good chances she actually votes for me - at which point you will quickly follow with your own vote and end this.

Thus,

FoS: Para

To the other townie, however you are - I urge you not to vote until you're as certain as can be that you're voting scum. Remember that if you misvote, the scum member can end the game then and there. So, consider your vote a hammer and a final decision.

[ODDin]

EBWOP: "whoever you are", not "however you are", naturally.

[Paradoxombie]

Well, I can count, and I knew we had three votes on him, and since it's an open setup, I knew lynch was settled already. So yes, I believed him. If you want to think it's a Freudian slip of sorts... well, I can't really say anything on the matter other than "no, it wasn't".

However, you seem to disregard the fact that I also brought up an argument against you, para (post 150, top of page 7). You replied to charter, but you didn't at all address my point - although you clearly read the post, as you selectively replied to the part about Khamisa.

All I have to say in response to your comment in 150 is that I didn't see much to gain so close to deadline.

I don't think it was a freudian slip. I would say you just didn't seem to be thinking like a townie.

I'll admit that I haven't suspected you at all before, besides your interaction with charter at the very beginning. But I've just done a re-read and there's only 2 people to concentrate on.

Idk it's pretty hard to tell. Khamisa looks like she could be scum, but it seems to be her lack of activity that most bothered me earlier. ODDin appears more scummy, but he's also provided alot more information to be suspicious of. Khamisa hasn't done too many suspicious things because she hasn't done much at all.

[Paradoxombie]

Also, para, you didn't say anything about me and my behaviour prior to Khamisa's post - not during the twilight discussion, not during the beginning of D2. Yet all of Khamisa's points are relevant to things I've said during twilight at the latest. Yesterday, you said I was your most likely candidate to be town. You brought up arguments against Khamisa in post 157 and didn't say anything about me.

Oh yeah, and I'd like to point out:

So, my suspect list:
Empking
Para
charter
ODD

Khamisa hasn't suspected you either all game. No one really has. That's making me want to really consider you. I always thought Khamisa was the one floating under the radar, but I've been looking at her since early on and you've been gliding through the whole game.

You're the only player who never suspected empking. You voted him randomly, and then disregarded him up to his death.

Also:

This game is sliding downhill like... well, I can't think up a suitably vivid metaphor, but pretty darn fast.
Can anyone explain me why charter isn't dead? Does anyone understand by what rules the game is currently running?

I feel like this is a bit of an overreaction. For the town, we had just killed scum. You say the game is going downhill but the only confusion was whether one player was alive. It'd make more sense for scum to panic at the idea of a 3 vs. 1 situation.

[ODDin]

It's not that I completely disregarded empking. I was just more inclined to regard his behaviour as a null-tell due to his meta, as reported by charter.

Also, the statement about the game sliding downhill wasn't referring to the actual state of the game, but to the situation with the rules and charter, as the next line explained. I was pretty disturbed by dead charter speaking already during D2 and then zwet claiming he's actually not dead.

Also, Khamisa, para raised an actually valid point: on your list of suspects back then, para was right after empking. What happened now? What caused you to change your mind?