Mini 792 - Tofu Mafia. Game over!

[populartajo]

Heros'106 is an interesting move. Why the vote on Adel when you said you didnt have any significant degree suspicions? Are you always that liberal with your votes??

Not always, but frequently. I'd accuse you of also being liberal with your votes, but you might mistake my point.

Answer the questions.

When you reread to write 246, I presume (since you remarked on Vi's related 101) you noticed my response to the first time you mentioned posts 31 and 32. So how does 32 qualify as a return to random if it was placed to serve a purpose?

Thats exactly what I am asking. If 31 was used for a purpose then why 32 has a random vote in it?

populartajo, Troll sees that you have looked through the game at this point though the path from your observations to your conclusions be a bit murky in some cases. Troll wonders if you could explain what it is that makes Herodotus your clear first choice for a vote at this time?

Hero is the only player that has caught my attention since page 2. Also this:

Really, the only one that hasnt given me protown vibes is Hero. There is a group that feels obvtown than the rest (town group) and also lotsa people feeling prob town (the fact that the elite is playing here prob is the reason) in the neutral groupings.

Tajo:I don't like your description of me as "either ... town or ... scum." Fence-sit much? And then I show up as Prob Town. You've also got Ecto on your "prob town" list but mention him nowhere in the preceding analysis. I'm getting "out-of-left-field" vibes from your vote on Hero.

At this point I think you are more prob town. I cant discard the possibility of you being a very very calculating scum (all your relaxed comments on page 1-2) but its less prob than you sincerely doing it as town. Also, I did comment on Ecto, please check again. I already explained my vote on Hero.

I do not want him to claim, and I do not want anyone else to vote for him right now.

Agreed. Just to make it harder to force a too-early claim out of Artem,

unvote

He's still my top candidate, so

fos: Artem

.

I hate this vote. And the fos even more. Seems like he is scared of Adel.

You're at three votes, and you consider wagons to be pro-town, so you should be happy; again your response looks inconsistent with a town alignment.

WTF? How one can be happy when a wagon is growing against him?

Well, basically my opinion hasnt changed (from my previous post). Too many discussions about retarded stuff.

Hero needs to die.

[populartajo]

vote: populartajo

Aside from the lurking, he is buddying up to Elmo, both with his vote and in his stated analysis. His first vote was random, but his second has been in place since page 2, so at the least, he should be feeding the parking meter. Finally, his antagonism toward Adel has been giving me vibes of disingenuousness since it started (which was why I asked Adel about him earlier.)

Good vote.

Did Adel give you the guts to vote for me?

Also, if you had really checked the link Adel provided, you would realize that Im neglecting games like shit, specially the ones that need wallotext battles.

Not my thing, dude.

[populartajo]

Also, Adel should post his conclusions of his analysis and "random"questions posed before in the next post instead of going in a "lurker"hunt.

Scum natural reaction is to call buddying when people start realizing how prob town other players can be. I do this all the time as town. Elmo, Adel and some others know about this and it was one of the reasons why town owned in Crackers. If we can safely call some people most prob town then all our job is reduced to most probables process of eliminations. Scum hate this so much.

Also, I would like to know (for people that have played with him) if this is the normal Herodotus.

[Herodotus]

Heros'106 is an interesting move. Why the vote on Adel when you said you didnt have any significant degree suspicions? Are you always that liberal with your votes??

Not always, but frequently. I'd accuse you of also being liberal with your votes, but you might mistake my point.

Answer the questions.

Between 106 and 248, I already have, but to consolidate:
1.

Vote: Adel
You may be planning to contribute a lot soon, but so far you have not. You're "aware of the search function" but stated that the reason you insisted on everyone posting their own games was that you would "have to do all of the work myself" otherwise. It's about 20 seconds of work per player, that way. Not much more than finding their list within the thread.

Those were the reasons why I voted for Adel. I had some suspicions, just not anything huge.
2. Not always, but frequently.

When you reread to write 246, I presume (since you remarked on Vi's related 101) you noticed my response to the first time you mentioned posts 31 and 32. So how does 32 qualify as a return to random if it was placed to serve a purpose?

Thats exactly what I am asking. If 31 was used for a purpose then why 32 has a random vote in it?

The

non-random

vote in 32 would have been in 31 except I'd already clicked "Submit." It was designed to put pressure on Porkens. I explained this already, which is why I "presumed ... you noticed my response." If you want to question me further about this, at least read post 100 first.

But since you mentioned answering questions and random votes, I believe you still have some explaining to do about your own?

I do not want him to claim, and I do not want anyone else to vote for him right now.

Agreed. Just to make it harder to force a too-early claim out of Artem,

unvote

He's still my top candidate, so

fos: Artem

.

I hate this vote. And the fos even more. Seems like he is scared of Adel.

Do you only dislike my unvote because I'm agreeing with Adel?
If you were suspicious of a player, but not enough to lynch them or support a request for a claim, and they were at L-2, would you prefer to be voting them, or not? If not, how would you make it clear that you suspected the person?

As far as Adel is concerned, both of your comments looks like catch-22's. I refuse to let you set me against another player against my will.

I'm not saying you're buddying with Elmo because you think he is town, I'm saying it because you followed his vote and because you're conspicuously agreeing with everything he says.

[Vi]

Scared? Sanity can blur your thinking.

"Scared" isn't the word I'm thinking of.

Troll be voting for someone who might have been V/LA over a weekend but then started posting that she was reading when she got prodded on Monday, followed with the question to the mod, posted a single question about the posts just before it on Tuesday and finally got to contributing on Wednesday. Again, if you had something holding you back about some interactions on Monday when you asked the mod the question that no be a reason to give nothing past that.

So if I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that s-lullaby deliberately stalled her post until Wednesday when she had something ready(ish) on Monday. Calling someone out for lurking is simple enough, but you seem to be giving a somewhat detailed schedule of s-lully's lurking...?

a) because dubbing an argument a town-town argument, especially implicitly like Elmo did, is more frequently a scum buddying tactic than an honest town opinion--particularly the implicit part bugs me.

I disagree. As said before, Elmo has already "cleared" half the player list. On D1, that's like shooting yourself in the foot as scum. tajo 352 explains it well.

-----

@Elmo: You're not the only one reading Artem as (newb)Town. Artem's positions aren't entirely consistent with each other, but the overall display reads more inexperienced than scummy.

Regarding the four people you listed: I think Korts may have been accurate in saying that Troll is acting within a playstyle (caveat: I don't know Troll's meta) but his reasons for calling s-lully scummy are reaches sometimes on top of his rather formulaic foci. The passive tone in Troll 324 seems positive to me, at least.

I really don't like how s-lully's approach to defense is "I'm Town; are you really going to push me?". On top of that, her posts seem reactionary - she posts when someone asks her something.

I was fine with Herodotus until about #20, and really started to pay attention around #23. I'm not particularly fond of this turnaround on Artem, especially the waffle here--

I don't know whether Artem is scum; if I did, I'd be calling for his lynch if he was, or defending him if he wasn't. The only way I could already genuinely believe with any certainty that Artem is scum is if we were scum together.

--and this implied reminder that Herodotus is not voting for Artem--

So, which people do you think want Artem lynched but don't expect that he is scum? Or more importantly, of those, who do you think has a scummy motivation?

But what I really want to know right now: Herodotus, your thoughts on Adel? And has your opinion of Artem always been so reserved?

There are a couple of remarks from Korts that have made me think twice, but overall I'm not really worried about him.

I've thought about moving my vote, but since s-lully likely wouldn't care if I voted her and Adel seems content to pull strings, I don't think it's necessary.

[Porkens]

Can you explain your vote on me? If you didn't mean to attack me, then I don't understand why you're voting me if we're having a simple misunderstanding.

Bandwagons are good.

I wonder, were you trying to shift my arguments against Troll into a more refutable position? It would make sense, coupled with your light attacks against him, in a distancing scenario between you two.

This reads as manipulative rabble-rousing, to me.

Porkens: Unless I'm mistaken, Artem's lack of intention to immediately lynch the person whose wagon he does not exclude the wagon having potential to lynch them. You wouldn't typically expect someone to say "WE NEED TO LYNCH X IMMEDIATELY" early in the day, but early bandwagoning is commonplace. And yeah, Herod's unvote is ridiculous, it's like he doesn't genuinely believe Artem is scum, unsurprisingly - no wonder Artem sees a huge difference between this and the aggressive townie he played with before. Maybe you should do something about that, y'know, with a rope?

I can't tell if this is peace-keeping or defending. Why should

I

do something about Herod when

Artem

thinks he's acting scummy?

Also, I did comment on Ecto, please check again. I already explained my vote on Hero.

so you did, my bad - I don't know how I missed that.



I'm not for the tajo wagon a.t.m.. Primarily because it's being driven by Adel who still hasn't posted her reasons/motivations for a couple of major points.

[Herodotus]

@Elmo: You're not the only one reading Artem as (newb)Town. Artem's positions aren't entirely consistent with each other, but the overall display reads more inexperienced than scummy.

He may be less active, but Artem joined before several players in this game, including you.

But what I really want to know right now: Herodotus, your thoughts on Adel?

I can't see how a full answer would benefit anyone but the scum. I am not voting Adel, and don't find Adel to be the most scummy.

And has your opinion of Artem always been so reserved?

Do you mean, was I always as uncertain about him as I am now? No. Around pages 7-9, I would definitely have wanted Artem lynched.

[Artem]

@Vi: How do

you

define scum-hunting?

@Porkens:

Once again; if you know the wagon isn't going to end in a lynch, what's the point? That's like A pointing a gun at B (one that everyone involved knows is not loaded), and people making decisions based on A and B's actions.

A wagon that isn't going to end in a lynch still a) separates the players into those on and the wagon and those off the wagon; and b) sets up a scenario where scum may be inclined to request an early claim;

Besides, even if I explicitly state that I don't want a certain wagon to end in a lynch, doesn't mean others who are sitting on it share the same sentiment.

@Artem: Your vote would be very comfortable on Herod! Come on over ^_^ Porkens' vote for you lacked reasoning, but there's more votes on Herod which makes for a more effective wagon, and he's been worse overall in my opinion.

Tempting, but I think a wagon on Porkens would be more interesting at the moment. Herodotus has been very much on a defensive lately. Porkens, though, hasn't really made an original case on anybody, yet he accused me of not voting or unvoting on my own.

I want a rough stance from everyone on {Spring, Troll, Herod, Korts}.

I've already given my stance on three of those. Troll strikes me as pro-town. I like that he sticks to his guns when challenged about his points/playstyle.

Who would I be buddying up with, and how?

Your perpetual defense of me does feel a little bit like buddying, but I have also seen plenty of town-town fights that got out of hand, so your arguments have merit.

Also, I would like to know (for people that have played with him) if this is the normal Herodotus.

No, but I've played with him once only and in a newbie game at that. We've already covered this.

So if I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that s-lullaby deliberately stalled her post until Wednesday when she had something ready(ish) on Monday. Calling someone out for lurking is simple enough, but you seem to be giving a somewhat detailed schedule of s-lully's lurking...?

For what it's worth, I also had a feeling that SL was going to post soon after getting an answer to her "Could scum communicate prior to game start?". I think this is why I had the thought of her deliberately throwing her meta off when she didn't.

[regarding SL] she posts when someone asks her something.

Told you so.

Bandwagons are good.

And then you accuse me of not voting or unvoting on my own? Tsk, tsk.

[springlullaby]

Will be posting in this one tonight.

[Vi]

Bandwagons are good.

How good is this one you're on?

I can't tell if this is peace-keeping or defending. Why should

I

do something about Herod when

Artem

thinks he's acting scummy?

o.o
I saw this paragraph, but I didn't quite catch the blatant proselytism at the end.

-----

He may be less active, but Artem joined before several players in this game, including you.

How does this change... anything?

I can't see how a full answer would benefit anyone but the scum. I am not voting Adel, and don't find Adel to be the most scummy.

This is rapidly becoming your standby answer, and I find it to be what Adel would call "blather". It reads like an excuse not to give your opinions on people (or justify them), and each person I've seen use this excuse has been scum themselves.

Do you mean, was I always as uncertain about him as I am now? No. Around pages 7-9, I would definitely have wanted Artem lynched.

Which is strange, because outside some one-liners and a summary vote on tajo I'm pretty sure that since you unvoted Artem most of your criticism has been directed toward Artem.

*hop* *skip* *jump*

Unvote: Adel
Vote: Herodotus

(L-4)

----

@Vi: How do

you

define scum-hunting?

Iunno, how do

you

define scum-hunting?

I can't see how a full answer to this question would benefit anyone but scum.

Scumhunting is simply the actions entailed in
*finding scum, and
*getting them lynched.
There are a number of ways to do it, but transparency and effectiveness are key. You should be able to tell if someone is interested in finding scum. I thought your answer was rather limited.

What I found curious about your accusations after asking you to define scumhunting is that nowhere did you mention that the observations had to be

original

, which along with having a vendetta against question marks was one of your primary complaints about Porkens. Talking of whom, I need to take a look at him tonight.

[Herodotus]

He may be less active, but Artem joined before several players in this game, including you.

How does this change... anything?

You called Artem inexperienced. I was fact-checking that.

I can't see how a full answer would benefit anyone but the scum. I am not voting Adel, and don't find Adel to be the most scummy.

This is rapidly becoming your standby answer, and I find it to be what Adel would call "blather". It reads like an excuse not to give your opinions on people (or justify them), and each person I've seen use this excuse has been scum themselves.

Not true at all. I have said this twice, and both times were in reference to making a distinction between neutral and town reads. For what it's worth, the only times (in completed games) when I have read people declining to make this distinction, they were town.

[Herodotus]

Do you mean, was I always as uncertain about him as I am now? No. Around pages 7-9, I would definitely have wanted Artem lynched.

Which is strange, because outside some one-liners and a summary vote on tajo I'm pretty sure that since you unvoted Artem most of your criticism has been directed toward Artem.

Yes, but at least one of those criticisms was wrong. I saw a null/town-tell (his question about my vote) as a scum-tell, and realizing that error has made me more doubtful.

[populartajo]

Hero, what do you think of Adel?

[Artem]

What I found curious about your accusations after asking you to define scumhunting is that nowhere did you mention that the observations had to be original, which along with having a vendetta against question marks was one of your primary complaints about Porkens. Talking of whom, I need to take a look at him tonight.

It was a vendetta against the

lack

of question marks, because, as we've seen with Korts, I can't always make out whether I should answer a statement to which the answer is already obvious.

But you have a point, Porkens is scumhunting according to my definition of scumhunting. But I still maintain that all he's doing is parroting other people's reasons from the sidelines. To me, that's scummy, especially when he hypocritically calls me out on not having original votes/unvotes.

I like his tongue-in-a-cheek response to why he's voting me. I just don't think it's pro-town, because I doubt that was the original reason for voting me.

[populartajo]

Artem, who do you think is scum and why?

[Artem]

Tajo: what part of 287 do you want me to elaborate on?

[populartajo]

Tajo: what part of 287 do you want me to elaborate on?

No changes in your suspicions?
You are fine with any player in 287 being lynched today, have any preferences?

[Artem]

Actually, now that you're posting, and Hero

still

hasn't picked up an offensive weapon, I'd swap you two in ordering. So, I'd like to see Porkens, Hero and Korts lynched, in that order.

SpyreX, you (Tajo) and SL are just FOS-worthy at this point.

[Herodotus]

@PT
In 246, your comments seem to suggest a town reading on Adel and Spring, particularly what you said about 42 and 133. Then you have them as "Neutral slightly scum" because you don't have "obvtown feelings." Why such a standard? And why such a label?
It looks in that pair of posts like you consider everyone except me to be town. As a townie, that leads me to conclude that you aren't doing any potentially useful scumhunting.
Did you find anything Zorblag wrote worth commenting on?
For each of Spring, Adel, and Zorblag, suppose that they are scum. What do you see as the strategic goals they are trying to accomplish with what they have written so far?

To provide an example:
I see you, as scum, lurking to avoid saying too much, buddying with Elmo by agreeing with everything he says, and kissing up to the whole town by calling almost everyone town. Also, you've argued over a useless point apparently for the sake of arguing, which could be a poor form of distancing.

Have I answered your questions from 246? If so, when did I first give the answer each question, and what was my answer?
If not, please restate or at least bold any unanswered questions.

Why are you calling my vote in post 32 random, after I said it wasn't? Why would I claim to have a motive for placing a vote that was really random?

[Herodotus]

Actually, now that you're posting, and Hero

still

hasn't picked up an offensive weapon, I'd swap you two in ordering. So, I'd like to see Porkens, Hero and Korts lynched, in that order.

SpyreX, you (Tajo) and SL are just FOS-worthy at this point.

Um, Artem, I did pick up an offensive weapon. It was aimed at you, and I guess you didn't recognize it. This is somewhat understandable, as things look different from the front than from an angle.
Very different, sometimes.

And what is PT posting, anyways? Mostly recycled materials. He's said very little that's new.

[populartajo]

In 246, your comments seem to suggest a town reading on Adel and Spring, particularly what you said about 42 and 133. Then you have them as "Neutral slightly scum" because you don't have "obvtown feelings." Why such a standard? And why such a label?

I would have expected to get a townie read from both Adel and Zorblag, kinda an Elmoish one. Ive played with both before and they have been very protown in the games where they were town. For different reasons, they havent given me the obvbtown feeling Im talking about, which is a big flag against them. About spring, I think Im starting to really know her as a player (Im in another games with her right now). I need to evaluate the game we played before.

It looks in that pair of posts like you consider everyone except me to be town. As a townie, that leads me to conclude that you aren't doing any potentially useful scumhunting.

No. There are people that look pretty townish and there are people that dont look as townie as they should. In a game of this caliber I would expect this would be the normal situation. I even explained in the list I provided. Can you define scumhunting?

Did you find anything Zorblag wrote worth commenting on?

Other than the fact that Zorblag was going in an activity crusade, not. You think he is scum?

For each of Spring, Adel, and Zorblag, suppose that they are scum. What do you see as the strategic goals they are trying to accomplish with what they have written so far?

What is the point of this question? Im far from thinking they are scum. Stop deflecting the attention.

Why are you calling my vote in post 32 random, after I said it wasn't? Why would I claim to have a motive for placing a vote that was really random?

My problem with your first two posts is that they feel fabricated and you have admitted that. Its weird enough for a first random vote when everyone was making jokes.
My question is what do you think of Adel? And why doid you vote her?

[populartajo]

I singled out your "case"

I see you, as scum, lurking to avoid saying too much, buddying with Elmo by agreeing with everything he says, and kissing up to the whole town by calling almost everyone town. Also, you've argued over a useless point apparently for the sake of arguing, which could be a poor form of distancing.

a) Im not freaking lurking. Dont you read what I post?
b)Im not buddying with Elmo. I just think that he is the most prob town of all people here and I like his reasoning. This is what we all should be doing: decide who is more prob town and start working in poe.
c) Im not calling almost everyone town. Please see above.
d)What useless point? What distancing? Please be more concise.

[SpyreX]

I'd like to see some real content from Ecto.

I'd also love Adel to explain, well, everything.

@Elmo:

I can -kind- of see where you're coming from. Doesn't change the fact that unless I KNOW you're town I'm taking what you are saying with a gigantic grain of salt.

And Artem has still been scummier than all getout.

I did a reread and I am overly concerned with a Hero-Adel connection (mostly the Hero to Adel way). I'll detail that out later.

[Ectomancer]

I'm getting a scummy read off Elmo now. His defense of Artem is too strong for my liking.

I've been playing around with this in my head as well (because it bugs the hell out of me).

I can't fathom that strong of a defense for a scum-buddy*. However I, independently, find Artem to be scummy as all getout. Which, well, bothers me. It is too transparent day 1 to tie yourself so close with minimal gain. Unless Elmo is scum AND Artem is town.

Yet, see Artem's play and I just dont get it.

* This assumes Artem is not one of the classic "must-save" scum roles (see recruiter, etc). If this is the case Elmo doesn't even get to defend themselves and go off the plank tomorrow.

Toss a Godfather into that equation and it might make more sense. Artme doesn't need to be a "must save" role. Elmo simply

wants

a possible investigation tossed his way, and have the 3rd mafiaso (assuming standard role setup) to make the kill in case town has both tracker and cop.

[Ectomancer]

I'd like to see some real content from Ecto.

Prolific is what you all have been. Its hard to catch up, but a couple guesses here. Scum is on one of the big wagons and its probably not a bus.
Scum has already squared up against a town member, and though wants to look "on the case", wont actually push theirs to a lynch to avoid the obvious
"who was involved in lynching town"/

That's vague, but what you get from a skim (and Im not done yet)