Newbie 785 - Game Over

[Cyren]

Oh, I'm back btw

[Papa Zito]

The walls of text, we are building them.

First, a quick observation: Zito is actively pursuing the only player building a case against him. Coincidence?

Lawl. I started putting a case together on you first. Someone else is already hunting my other suspect.

I laid out several reasons why going after lurkers early on Day 1 is a bad idea in that post. You've failed to address any of them here. This is an obvious attempt to deflect.

You didn't really lay out any reasons, you waved off a reference that townies would want to lurk, but never mentioned any of them. The only reason to lurk is to fly under the radar and avoid giving your opinions or drawing attention to yourself, not exactly pro-town. Not a deflect at all, lurking isn't good for town, especially on day one, period. Going after lurkers gets them to post solves the problem, its not a lynch attempt, its a pressure vote, you still fail (intentionally?) to realize the difference.

I listed three. And townie power-roles want to lurk a bit early on so they don't get nightkilled. See Mastin (Doc) in the game I linked earlier for an excellent example of what happens when power roles take the limelight.

And I've already discussed why going after lurkers early Day 1 is bad, so I see no need to rehash the rest of this.

My list is useful. Unless you know all of them, I guess. Regardless, you've completely missed (intentionally?) the point - useful advice doesn't help us find scum. And useful advice, unfortunately, is all you've offered.

A bunch of acronyms are helpful for reading through posts, not for scum hunting. Maybe your version of advice isn't helpful, but actually giving people tips about what is generally the goal of town and how not to shoot yourself in the foot, especially in a newbie game, is actually probably very helpful in scumhunting in the long-run. It's not a baseless attack, but that's all you seem to recognize as useful.

Sigh. You're going to make me do a post-by-post, aren't you? Fine then.

Post 1: Random vote
Post 2: Call me Shotty. (Call me Ishmael.)
Post 3: "I dunno, I wouldn't reach much into it."
Post 4: Waiting for Toledo. (Waiting for Godot.)
Post 5: Advice: Somebody unvote Giskard since he's at L-1.
Post 6: Oops, counted wrong, nevermind.
Post 7: Unvote.
Post 8: Speculates that if PhilyEc is scum, then a lurker is too. Can we prod Cornelllius? Mod says no, he posted recently.
Post 9: Defense against a PhilyEc jab. "I was just speculating"
Post 10: Says he's speculating since PhilyEc "seems to be the hot topic at the moment"
Post 11: Back to Cornellius!
Post 12: Phily is town now. Votes Cornellius.
Post 13: Cornellius is a bad, bad lurker person.
Post 14: Defends against a Corporation jab about Cornellius
Post 15: Asks PhilyEc for more info
Post 16: Where's Qwints?
Post 17: Where's Qwints?
Post 18: Sorry that I've been inactive everyone. (irony, lol)
Post 19: Yay the thread is alive.

Posts 20 onwards were part of the ongoing debate.

I should have done this earlier, I suppose. Bad me. So the grand sum total of your advice seems to be contained in post 5. And the grand sum total of your scumhunting seems to be contained in post {ERROR 404: FILE NOT FOUND.} Oops, there wasn't any.

Again, you (intentionally?) missed the point - You haven't taken a stand on anyone until you were forced to. Even with this post you haven't fully committed to anything, because even after all this analysis you still aren't voting one of your chief suspects. To me it seems like you're throwing up a huge cloud of smoke, throwing out a couple names and hoping something sticks. If someone does bite then I'm guessing you'll happily hop onboard.

[1]Nice one, if I had voted you would've said "Look, Shotty's just voting someone else to throw our attention elsewhere." Good play since you could complain about my decision either way, hope people see through this obvious ploy. [2]Sorry, I like to actually hear other people's opinions and come to a consensus with them before voting.

1. And you know this how? You saw into the future perhaps?
2. Yes, there was an obvious consensus on Cornellius being scum. Oops, wait, no there wasn't. This sentence is also How To Be a Bad Guy 101: Riding Town Opinion to Success!

Classic scum post. You completely fail to refute what's being said (probably because you can't) and instead try to attack the person. It doesn't matter if I joined first or fifth. What matters if what I say makes logical sense.

[1]Actually, I'm pretty sure I outlined how I refuted what you said, try reading the post. [2]What you say is just an echo of Corp's earlier post with a few rusty bells and whistles tacked on to make it look different. [3]You've done the exact same thing with your position on Gadget by copying Cyren. Coincidence? [4]Classic case of bandwagoning and riding the coat tails of other people's arguments.

1. Actually, you pretty much didn't refute anything. Repeating that you did over and over again doesn't make it true.
2. Prove this. Saying it doesn't make it true.
3. Prove this. Saying it doesn't make it true.
4. Prove... ah, you should get the point by now. Plus there isn't a bandwagon on you yet. For some reason.

I love when a pattern emerges.

Logical fallacy. What someone flips doesn't determine anyone else's alignment. The intent of the voter does. Townies mislynch all the time.

Hope you have a lot more lines like this for when you get asked about your townie lynches in the coming days. Intent to lynch town is pretty scummy in my book.

Intent to lynch scummy players shouldn't be.

This is a fantastic paragraph and deserves more breakdown.

1. Translation: He was fine until he started targeting me.
2. Refuted this 'point' above
3. Out of thin air? I examined what you said and found numerous scummy things, none of which you've refuted.
4. I had no idea you were even attacking me. When was this? PhilyEc has been applying the only pressure I've felt so far.
5. lolwut
6. bzzzt

1. Ummm, I didn't even put posts in until after you started targeting me, so there's no standard of comparison.
2. Supporting lurking is fail.
3. Once again failure to read the post or just glossing over things that were said.
4. Pretty sure I was the one applying pressure to your predecessor to get him to post, since your such a fan of lurking once I'm gone you could do the same with less chance of being called out.
5.Lolwut this post contains nothing at all refuting anything I said, just more attacks against me. What was that? A classic scum post someone called that? Oh wait that was you, lol good job.

1. How did I show up as town if there's no standard of comparison?
2. Read plz
3. I read it. I analyzed it. I dissected it. Posting this doesn't make it true. Etc.
4. You pressured my predecessor for lurking. I, obviously, am not a lurker. Hence, no pressure. Phily was attacking me for stuff I said. You should try it some time. Also, your crystal ball is amazing, where can I get one?
5. You had the nerve to claim I didn't use logic. The nerve! It deserved a lolwut.

So I agree that you can't just ignore what our predecessors did. Part of the burden of being a replacement is that you have to account for the actions of the one you replace. Cyren and I shouldn't be considered "innocent" just because we replaced in, so if you have an issue with something our previous selves said, feel free to question it.

A post any scum would be willing to throw out when he's under little to no fire and realizes his predecessor lurked/flaked so much there's almost nothing to question.

Because a townie wouldn't make that post, right? And let's just ignore the fact that the post completely and totally obliterated your point 6 in that paragraph. Which was, just so we won't be confused: "[6]counting on the innocence halo of a replace to carry him through this day where he hopes I will be silenced."

I'll throw another acronym out there: FUD. Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. That's what Shotty is trying to spread to the town by making a bunch of baseless accusations and ignoring cases against him. Shotty really needs more votes.

Right, right.... Baseless because they aren't something you can bandwagon on? I'm not trying to spread any fear or doubt. Zito's reasons for lynching me are a load of BS based on the fact I decided to observe and report rather than attack during day one. At least I contributed original ideas and independent opinions to cases that were presented instead of jumping on the coat tails of every case against someone right as I replaced in.

[/quote]

No no no. My vote is on you because you're the scummiest player in the game. Why are you the scummiest player in the game? Because:

1. Until I came along, you were just making contentless posts and trying to appear townie by asking for information.
2. Going after an easy target, a lurker, who can't/won't defend himself instead of someone who would actually answer. Again to try to earn townie points.
3. Failing to refute anything I've said. And I've said a lot.

[Papa Zito]

Summary Post!

falkomagno

- Still haven't seen much. Still neutral read. Hmm.

GadgetArcrep

- Solidified as my #2.

Giskard

- Hunting Falkomagno. Still pro-town.

PhilyEc

- Has gotten kinda quiet lately, probably drunk again because of the holiday. Scumhunting me a bit. Pro-townish.

qwints

- Promised a good post today, let's see if it's delivered. Still solidly pro-town at this point.

Shotty to the Body

- I think my feelings here are clear.

The Corporation

- Gone kinda quiet also. More posts plz. Solidly pro-town still though.

Cyren

- Most pro-town player in the game.

Pro Town

Cyren
The Corporation
qwints

Slightly Town

Giskard
PhilyEc

Neutral

falkomango

Slightly Scummy

None

Scummy

GadgetArcrep
Shotty to the Body

[falkomagno]

I can't see why you put qwints in your pro town list. What has done him lately? Nothing.

I think that, in day two, and depending how the things happens, this list could be usefull, to make possible connections

[Papa Zito]

I can't see why you put qwints in your pro town list. What has done him lately? Nothing.

It's been a holiday in the US, so I'm guessing he was away. If he fails to deliver on the post he promised for today I'll consider that a bad mark.

More importantly: Why are you so interested in Qwint's position and not anybody else? Nothing else struck you as odd or worth commenting on?

I think that, in day two, and depending how the things happens, this list could be usefull, to make possible connections

If the person lynched today is scum, then yes, lists like this become useful. If we mislynch then it doesn't do a lot of good really. I'm also dropping these in case I get nightkilled as a record of what I thought at this point in the game.

[PhilyEc]

gadget wrote:
Which is exactly what you did then to see wether or not i was paying attention, because ignoring posts, in your opinion, is one of my attributes.


I'm confused... Are you saying I read everything even when it isn't addressed to me? I have no idea what the bolded part means. Yes, it is one of your attributes.

Neferenom wrote:
That is how the game works, if we backed off of everyone who simply said, "I'm town don't lynch me" we'd never finish a game. What exactly makes you think he [phily] is a townie instead of scum?


Gadget wrote:
Again, I still consider Phily as one of my suspects, just not my main suspect at the moment. To be honest, You are starting to be one of my suspects, this is not OMGUSing, but my suspicions are based on your persistance to put me away, with pretty much most if not all your your game relevant posts are a direct attack to me, or includes one, to try and steer conversation towards being about me.


Cyren Wrote:
Really? First of all I posted in order three diff quotes of yours saying, he's town, I suspect him, he's town, and now you say he is still a suspect... You in NO way answer the question asked of you and then go back to OMGUS suspicion... YES IT IS. You being suspicion of me because I'm attacking you (no matter what degree it is) is OMGUS. You put absolutely NO logic into your reasoning. I flat out asked you what in my posts is scummy. The fact that I attack you isn't scummy. Our (Gadget and mine's) conversation that I direct at you IS about you.

This caught my attention. Gadget, am I a suspect or most likely town, to you? I hadn't notice you're wish washing between the two.

@Cyren
You wanted my thoughts on Gadgets post, its still the same, its a failure in logic. I see him as not making much of an effort at this game or providing a good defense. Your arguement is agreed with, in the fact that he could be tactless scum, especially due to the parts you've pointed out now.

Tactless Scum > Unobservant Town

[PhilyEc]

Love how

Scummy
GadgetArcrep
Shotty to the Body

Come into suspicion after I announced them as my suspects. Had I been late saying this there would've been another 'Phily jab' =P

Zito, its strange but when I read your quotes of Shotty they seem more hostile than I'd previously taken them to be. Hes definately on guard and not being organised about collecting his thoughts.

Shotty > Gadget, at the moment.

Vote Shotty

[Giskard]

I am going to save everyone some reading and just quote and discuss what I think is the most important part of falko's response to me. If you would like me to respond to it in its entirety just let me know.

The only posts that he made that have any real content are 51 and 64. Both or these posts give what seem to me has terrible reasons for putting quints at L-2 and that has me very suspicious of falko.

I think that post 64 clarify my position about that. Simply say that "is a terrible reason" did'nt make any sense if you don't say why. You just can quote and say...that's terrible, that's null, that's worthless, that doesn't have nay value, because you have to argumentate and say why in first place.

If you have real question, and not just " I think that 's terrible reasons" I'm glad to answer you.


I take a time to respond you because I hardly see that post (187) as a question straight directed at me I just saw a person who quotes my post and says, "that worthless" without any position instead, neither analisys supporting that statements.

I guess I should have elaborated on why I thought falko's vote was for a terrible reason. I did not find qwints' comments to be at all confusing. It was clearly a joke. I can see how someone would read them for the first time and think "wait, what?" and then realize they were a joke. I cannot however see how anyone could read what he wrote and think "why that dastardly devil is sowing seeds of confusion in order to start a witch hunt against me". Especially since the comments in question were made on page 1. There are only two people in this game who were not confused on page 1. What point would there be in causing confusion? To throw us off the trail of our zero real suspects? To make us continue not trusting anyone else? He could have said nothing and we would have been in the same place.

The way I am reading it, you saw a guy with two votes who was suddenly starting to attract attention by voting for you and decided to add your vote to what you thought would be a growing pile. Since then you have done nothing to help us find any other suspects as I illustrated in post 187.

And lastly, post 187 might as well read "falkomagno I have reason to believe that you may be planning the murder of several of my associates." And your response was . . . nothing. This isn't Jeopardy. Just because my accusations are not stated in the form of a question doesn't mean they don't need a response. It is for that reason why the suspicious activity I described above and in post 187 moved from just suspicion to a vote.

[falkomagno]

I can't see why you put qwints in your pro town list. What has done him lately? Nothing.

It's been a holiday in the US, so I'm guessing he was away. If he fails to deliver on the post he promised for today I'll consider that a bad mark.

I wasn't mean about this holiday. In fact, here was Holiday too. I mean -since I just discovered how to look all posts of a single player- that I realized that qwints hasn't say anything substantial since...May 12.(his post N0. 12). Even more, the qwnts behaviour along the game is, summarizing:, 1. vote for me because he thought that I was going to intentionally to lurk. 2. Attack phyl because budding is scum. 3. unvote for me because he realized that my intention wasn't about lurk, and I kept active.

And that's it. But still is in your "pro-town" list. It seems like a double standard, seeing the harsh attack against shotty, just because he has saying that "lurk is bad". But don't misunderstood me. It's just that you seem very critical with some, and lax with anothers.

More importantly: Why are you so interested in Qwint's position and not anybody else? Nothing else struck you as odd or worth commenting on?

I think that I felt attacked, and the perpetrator keeps in my mind

I think that, in day two, and depending how the things happens, this list could be usefull, to make possible connections

If the person lynched today is scum, then yes, lists like this become useful. If we mislynch then it doesn't do a lot of good really. I'm also dropping these in case I get nightkilled as a record of what I thought at this point in the game.

I think the opposite. If the day 1 lynch is town, and depending who would be, your list can be very interesting for further arguments.


@Giskard

...

The point about confussion is this. If you ask me, for example:,

who do you think that is the most scum?

(that's a syntaxis in a question, it's not about jeopardy you know).
And I say:

Probably, myself

And you ask me back...

You are serious??

And I say...

Yes, I am.

.

People can say that is a joke, clear as water, but people can say, that is confussion as well. That's you basis of your attemp of scumhunt against me?? please.

Elaborate deeper, maybe we could use that.[/i]

[Cyren]

I think there is still confusion from the beginning...

Qwints random voted Falko, Falko said he didn't want to participate in RVS (everyone thought it meant he wasn't going to play till RVS was over) so Qwints decided his vote was real thinking that Falko was going to just sit and watch. Qwints removed his vote when he realize Falko was still participating in the game just not RVS.

There was no joke when he said, "Its real now"

[Cyren]

Corp, I find it odd you can't think of anything to say about Shotty's responses to both you and Zito. You were the first person to vote for him and point out your suspicions now he is at L-2 I believe. I'm refraining from switching my vote because I want Shotty to be able to respond first, but you seem to have started a bandwagon and aren't adding much to it now.

You really have nothing else to say about their posts or anyone else?

sorry about the double post.

[Papa Zito]

[And that's it. But still is in your "pro-town" list. It seems like a double standard, seeing the harsh attack against shotty, just because he has saying that "lurk is bad". But don't misunderstood me. It's just that you seem very critical with some, and lax with anothers.

Oh, I'm critical of everyone. Make no mistake, you're all evil, evil scum until you prove otherwise. My top three suspects (Shotty, Gadget and yourself) are all being questioned at the moment, which makes me a happy camper.

Now, regarding qwints... cripes. I have to do TWO of these in a day?

qwints.... THIS. IS. YOUR. LIFE!

Post 1: Random vote.
Post 2: Another random vote!
Post 3: Of course it's random, duh.
Post 4: Yes. Yes!
Post 5: Oh wait no it's srs bsns now.
Post 6: If you say "this is pressure" then it's not pressure. (true) Also Gadget's off his rocker.
Post 7: Falko's a lurker. Oh, and Phily's defending him too much.
Post 8: More defense
Post 9: Unvote, since Falko is talking. PhilyEc case posted. Vote.
Post 10: More Phily stuff.
Post 11: Cornelius is lurking.
Post 12: Meta. More Phily case.
Post 13: Attacks? What attacks?
Post 14: Attacks? What attacks?
Post 15: What PBPA means.
Post 16: Shotty's an OK guy. Cyren's doing well. Unvotes because Phily is tough to digest.
Post 17: Prodded, I'm going to post something Tuesday (today) I PROMISE.

So basically my pro-town read is because of 5-12. He was actively hunting and defending himself well. I'm going to be really disappointed if the big post he promised doesn't materialize though.

More importantly: Why are you so interested in Qwint's position and not anybody else? Nothing else struck you as odd or worth commenting on?

I think that I felt attacked, and the perpetrator keeps in my mind

Forgive me for saying so, but that's bad play. People are supposed to jump on other people in this game, and you need to be prepared to defend yourself at all times. Thinking someone is scummy just because they are attacking you is called OMGUS - Oh My God U Suck. Defend yourself, figure out a target, and move on.

[GadgetArcrep]

Fuck, I have a lot to work with today, sorry for my dissapearence, i had no net access for long enough to work on my post.

I'll see what I can do before deadline, today, obviously, too.

also, my mothers birthday is on deadline date, so say happy birthday for her, yeah? :3

[GadgetArcrep]

And to be honest, i dont know who to vote for myself, i dont have focus on this window, and it requires it.

If my post does not come during the next few hours, consider tonight it may come, if not, tomorrow.

apologies for lack of activity, its hard to work around midyear exm study, my mother eing a bitch and stealing my computer, and trying to work on half a years english work.

[GadgetArcrep]

Phily: Wishwashing aside, i'm constantly flipping up on your early aggressiveness in the game, you are my 3rd in the suspects I have, but if we do manage to get a big piece of evidence against someone, then you would be considered 100% town by myself.

Cy: I dont midn the bitchiness, but its just constant badgering since your appearence has me suspecting you.

more later.

[The Corporation]

Corp, I find it odd you can't think of anything to say about Shotty's responses to both you and Zito. You were the first person to vote for him and point out your suspicions now he is at L-2 I believe. I'm refraining from switching my vote because I want Shotty to be able to respond first, but you seem to have started a bandwagon and aren't adding much to it now.

You really have nothing else to say about their posts or anyone else?

sorry about the double post.

To be honest I'm still exactly where I was in post 167.

I do have a slight concern that

if

Shotty is town he has been forced into a situation where he can't really defend himself. If scum lies within you or Zito - he is going to have a hard time building a case because your predecessors lurked and you guys have come straight out at him.

If it lies somewhere else he is going to have a hard time building a case, save for Gadget perhaps. That is why I'm disregarding a lot of the Zito/Shotty exchange in my mind and trusting my original read on the first 160+ pages of dialogue mostly.

Speaking of Gadget though I would really like to see your hand dude, and see where and why you cast your vote.

[qwints]

The last few pages of post have changed my mind on Shotty's scuminess; he certainly hasn't done himself any favors.

I would recommend against an accumulation of "pro-town" lists as they often turn into "to-kill" lists for the mafia.

Sorry, real life stuff came up today. I'll post more in-depth ASAP. Don't be surprised by a shotty vote.

[GadgetArcrep]

I would recommend against an accumulation of "pro-town" lists as they often turn into "to-kill" lists for the mafia.

I have a feeling PR's tonight will have their work cut out for them, if Town/kill lists really are prominent.

Not my big post yet, just going to check everything over tonight.

Also, In another note, I forgot this birthday, too. Happy birthday my uncle.

[Papa Zito]

This post hurt my townie read on Corp a bit.

[1]I do have a slight concern that

if

Shotty is town he has been forced into a situation where he can't really defend himself. [2]If scum lies within you or Zito - he is going to have a hard time building a case because your predecessors lurked and you guys have come straight out at him.

[3]If it lies somewhere else he is going to have a hard time building a case, save for Gadget perhaps. [4]That is why I'm disregarding a lot of the Zito/Shotty exchange in my mind and trusting my original read on the first 160+ pages of dialogue mostly.

1. wat. Townies should always be able to defend themselves. Scum are the ones at a disadvantage here because they have to manufacture things to make mislynches happen. Townies should rarely (can't say never) lie.
2. wat. Cyren and I have both posted massive quantities of content since we replaced. There should be plenty there for people to form opinions of us and build a case if need be.
3. wat. Nothing is stopping him from building a case on someone else. Also, Gadget already has one, why should he build one on Gadget?
4. WAT IN ALL CAPS. If you don't want to comment on our exchange fine (I guess) but to just ignore it completely is ludicrous. There's way too much there on both players to just wave a hand and dismiss it all.

Bad post is bad.

[Papa Zito]

I would recommend against an accumulation of "pro-town" lists as they often turn into "to-kill" lists for the mafia.

Sorry, real life stuff came up today. I'll post more in-depth ASAP. Don't be surprised by a shotty vote.

Fair point. No reason for people to not name their top suspects and why as Corp suggested, though.

Also, I'm really disappointed that the Big Qwints Post didn't make it. Stop screwing with my reads people kthx.

[The Corporation]

This post hurt my townie read on Corp a bit.

Let me ease your mind a little.

[1]I do have a slight concern that

if

Shotty is town he has been forced into a situation where he can't really defend himself. [2]If scum lies within you or Zito - he is going to have a hard time building a case because your predecessors lurked and you guys have come straight out at him.

[3]If it lies somewhere else he is going to have a hard time building a case, save for Gadget perhaps. [4]That is why I'm disregarding a lot of the Zito/Shotty exchange in my mind and trusting my original read on the first 160+ pages of dialogue mostly.

1. wat. Townies should always be able to defend themselves. Scum are the ones at a disadvantage here because they have to manufacture things to make mislynches happen. Townies should rarely (can't say never) lie.
2. wat. Cyren and I have both posted massive quantities of content since we replaced. There should be plenty there for people to form opinions of us and build a case if need be.
3. wat. Nothing is stopping him from building a case on someone else. Also, Gadget already has one, why should he build one on Gadget?
4. WAT IN ALL CAPS. If you don't want to comment on our exchange fine (I guess) but to just ignore it completely is ludicrous. There's way too much there on both players to just wave a hand and dismiss it all.

Bad post is bad.

1. Lieing isn't the issue with Shotty. Nor is manufacturing things. What exactly do you think he is "manufacturing"? His case against you? He does make a valid point that you have echoed a lot of my arguments against him, as well as adding a whole lot of other stuff (which I will address in point four). Jumping on my initial case and flogging it into the ground could be seen as scummy (making sure now to tie it all back to me), however I have enough faith in my initial read (another plug for post 167) too look beyond that and trust that you just have the same good read as me.

2. There is some out there - half as much as those that participated before you came into the game. And 99% of your posts are either attacking him or agreeing with his suspicions in 215. The only thing he can contradicts is your attacks on him and a lot of that can be written off with 'you can't just count what our predecessor did' and 'well of course you would say that'. Not leaving much. I say that because I agree with most of Shotty's observations (sans the hardcore suspicion on you and his innocence).

3. Nothing. Again assuming he is innocent for a second, you and I can't see a significant case for them to answer now, so I don't really expect it of others. Especially one who seems to not have the strongest scumdar in the game. But again - I don't give too much creedence to this point because I'm leaning strongly to scum on him.

4. Allow me to elaborate. For a start you are preaching to the converted. When I posted 167 I was 70% sure that my vote would stay on Shotty for the duration of this day. When he didn't reply adequately and practically agreed with the case you can bump it up to 80% - this is before you come in. Reading your discussion 30% of it seemed to be a nit picky discussion about lurking - which I give no creedence to. Another 25% was spent picking at the difference in definition between helpful behaviour and scum hunting behaviour - again I have little interest in this when it comes to voting. In the remainder there was a lot of repeating things ideas I had in 167, as well as a few other ideas.

In essence there was nothing in your discource that moved my already strong opinion on him. Just to reiterate I did intentionally try to avoid giving creedence to parts where you were posing repackaged or similar sentiments as I did in 167 - I kind of want to avoid agreeing with myself and potential group think. Sorry. Please don't confuse not being effected by the discussion to "waving a hand at it".

So to sum things up I was 80% when I posted 167. 85% after Shotty's reply and while your enquries moved you to this point (or something like it) it just didn't move me either way on that scale. I'd say I'm now at 90% after reading this...

Corp - Solidly pro-town as far as I can tell. Done a good job pursuing leads and catching mistakes, good scumhunter though mistaken in this case. Everyone has mentioned why he is pro-town: good analysis, attacks, activity, what not etc etc. I won't reiterate it when no one suspects him. Will have to revise of course as the targets of his attacks get lynched, could be very very good scum.

Possibility of being scum (at this time): Very Low

I know it might be a little in my self interest but that kind of sounds like a gun being loaded at my head. A bit of a set up for "aw wow I can't believe he went" should he make it through the day...

[Papa Zito]

This post hurt my townie read on Corp a bit.

Let me ease your mind a little.

Good man.

1. wat. Townies should always be able to defend themselves. Scum are the ones at a disadvantage here because they have to manufacture things to make mislynches happen. Townies should rarely (can't say never) lie.

1. Lieing isn't the issue with Shotty. Nor is manufacturing things. What exactly do you think he is "manufacturing"? His case against you? He does make a valid point that you have echoed a lot of my arguments against him, as well as adding a whole lot of other stuff (which I will address in point four). Jumping on my initial case and flogging it into the ground could be seen as scummy (making sure now to tie it all back to me), however I have enough faith in my initial read (another plug for post 167) too look beyond that and trust that you just have the same good read as me.

Oh the contrary, scum by their very nature must manufacture and lie in order to advance their cause. They know who the townies are, and must find a way to make the townies lynch each other. The only way to do this is to manufacture and lie. Yes, his case on me is manufactured. His case against my predecessor was as well.

Also, I came to my own conclusions when I posted. I'm not mirroring anybody. Your case is that Shotty hasn't bothered to post anything helpful. I see that too (as have others). He's also done two other things that I'm dinging him for.

P.S. I'm not flogging it into the ground. If he's defending then I have to respond or else it'll seem like I'm giving up/agreeing with him.

2. wat. Cyren and I have both posted massive quantities of content since we replaced. There should be plenty there for people to form opinions of us and build a case if need be.

2. There is some out there - half as much as those that participated before you came into the game. And 99% of your posts are either attacking him or agreeing with his suspicions in 215. The only thing he can contradicts is your attacks on him and a lot of that can be written off with 'you can't just count what our predecessor did' and 'well of course you would say that'. Not leaving much. I say that because I agree with most of Shotty's observations (sans the hardcore suspicion on you and his innocence).

Untrue. I've taken shots at Phily (admittedly mild), falko, Gadget and now you. I would be going after Gadget more but he's being hounded by Cyren so I don't need to. I've also addressed the whole predecessor bit like three times now, so I'm not going into that one again.

I think you've just noticed my walls of text and not my smaller posts. I think.

3. wat. Nothing is stopping him from building a case on someone else. Also, Gadget already has one, why should he build one on Gadget?

3. Nothing. Again assuming he is innocent for a second, you and I can't see a significant case for them to answer now, so I don't really expect it of others. Especially one who seems to not have the strongest scumdar in the game. But again - I don't give too much creedence to this point because I'm leaning strongly to scum on him.

Bah. Nobody saw a case on Shotty until you did the homework and posted it. There's no reason a townie Shotty couldn't do the same on me or anyone else, unless you're saying that nobody else in the game has done the slightest scummy thing at all.

4. WAT IN ALL CAPS. If you don't want to comment on our exchange fine (I guess) but to just ignore it completely is ludicrous. There's way too much there on both players to just wave a hand and dismiss it all.

4. Allow me to elaborate. For a start you are preaching to the converted. When I posted 167 I was 70% sure that my vote would stay on Shotty for the duration of this day. When he didn't reply adequately and practically agreed with the case you can bump it up to 80% - this is before you come in. Reading your discussion 30% of it seemed to be a nit picky discussion about lurking - which I give no creedence to. Another 25% was spent picking at the difference in definition between helpful behaviour and scum hunting behaviour - again I have little interest in this when it comes to voting. In the remainder there was a lot of repeating things ideas I had in 167, as well as a few other ideas.

You're a fan of Lynch All Lurkers then? This is curious to me because you haven't batted an eye at the activity level of any player in the game thus far. As far as nitpicking, well, it's Day 1.

[Cyren]

/twitch ARGH!!!! I had some stuff written here to post hit the preview submit button and it asked me to sign in and I lost it all /twitch /twitch. On top of that this computer has a virus or something and I can't even alt-tab to pull up other windows /twitch /twitch So I can't use notepad or word or anything /twitch.

/deep breath..... Alright my husband is leaving in an hour and should get off of my computer (That is he playing WoW on) and it DOES work... So as long as he doesn't drag me off with him, expect something from me in the next few hours.

[qwints]

OK, here we go:

Shotty v. Zito

Zito came in with Shotty as his top target in post 178. Shotty's response to the attack (182) was to admit a lack of content and try and excuse by pointing to his pro-town advice and suggesting he was looking for scum but didn't have a great case. Papa pressed his case in 186. Then Shotty responded with a decent defense in 213.

We then come to a rather bizarre pair of posts:

I'm not going to interject into the Gadget/Cyren conversation here since Cyren doesn't need my help, but I am going to say that the above solidifies Gadget as my #2.

All - keep in mind that we have a deadline a week from today, so we'll need to start moving to a consensus soon. At this point I'm fine with either a Shotty or Gadget lynch.

I dont think it was that concrete a result. Thats a bit of a stretch Zito.

No? Hmm. I'll explain then. Sorry Cyren, wasn't trying to interfere.

Cyren's basically saying "I'm scumhunting, please don't answer for him so he can wriggle away." ... Second point - I haven't seen Cyren push for a lynch yet. ... Cyren's just saying to pay attention to other conversations, even if you aren't involved in them. Your post is a blatant misrepresentation.

What we have here is Papa not only defending Cyren, but putting words in his mouth. That's quite scummy.

Papa further attacks Shotty in 220.

First, a quick observation: The two players applying pressure to Shotty are both high on his scum list. Coincidence?

Papa Zito - This is where things get interesting, and sticky.

lulz

I have to concede Corn did flake and some of his inactivity can be prescribed to that, but Zito still feels the need to defend lurking (post 186), why so up in arms about it if your predecessor flaked the whole time instead of lurking like you claim?

I laid out several reasons why going after lurkers early on Day 1 is a bad idea in that post. You've failed to address any of them here. This is an obvious attempt to deflect.

Reason 2 refuted above about his defending lurking and predecessor history.

lolwut? You haven't refuted anything. Here, let me recap for you:

1. Lurking, in and of itself, isn't a scumtell.
2. You need to see a pattern of lurking before going after lurkers with pressure votes. Early Day 1 is not enough time to establish a pattern.
3. Statistics make it more likely that you'll hit town instead of scum.

My last there was a parting shot that you failed to even address.

Reason 3 I gave useful advice not a list of acronyms, they aren't the same thing.

My list is useful. Unless you know all of them, I guess. Regardless, you've completely missed (intentionally?) the point - useful advice doesn't help us find scum. And useful advice, unfortunately, is all you've offered.

Reason 5 is just twisting my words, a strong read at this point is relative, not absolute.

A read is strong or it's not. I don't see how it can be relative. Also, here's what was said:

I haven't made any strong accusations because I don't have a strong read on everyone, especially with two replaces.

5. It's Day 1, I'd be amazed if you had a strong read on someone yet. The only way you'd have a strong read on someone at this stage is if they posted just tons and tons of content or if they majorly screwed up. You have to work with what's available and come to some kind of conclusion.

Again, you (intentionally?) missed the point - You haven't taken a stand on anyone until you were forced to. Even with this post you haven't fully committed to anything, because even after all this analysis you still aren't voting one of your chief suspects. To me it seems like you're throwing up a huge cloud of smoke, throwing out a couple names and hoping something sticks. If someone does bite then I'm guessing you'll happily hop onboard.

Cyren's posts about Gadget have much more meat however and they didn't opportunistically take advantage of a case being made against the person bringing their scummy intentions to the front of everyone's mind, like say Corp's case towards me. Also Zito has been encouraging Cyren's case towards Gadget as well. The fact that he joined second gave him the opportunity to piggy back his opener with Cyren's and mark Gadget as a suspect so he has 'reasons' to agree with Cyren.

Classic scum post. You completely fail to refute what's being said (probably because you can't) and instead try to attack the person. It doesn't matter if I joined first or fifth. What matters if what I say makes logical sense.

I'm convinced that if Gadget or myself is lynched (which seems likely at this point) and the lynchee flips town that one of the two replaces is scum, most likely Zito.

Logical fallacy. What someone flips doesn't determine anyone else's alignment. The intent of the voter does. Townies mislynch all the time.

I could be wrong about Zito, but I don't think so. [1]He showed up as town on my radar until [2]he proved his willingness to defend lurking [3]and conjured a case out of the air against [4]his biggest attacker rather then [5]defending himself with reason, [6]counting on the innocence halo of a replace to carry him through this day where he hopes I will be silenced.

This is a fantastic paragraph and deserves more breakdown.

1. Translation: He was fine until he started targeting me.
2. Refuted this 'point' above
3. Out of thin air? I examined what you said and found numerous scummy things, none of which you've refuted.
4. I had no idea you were even attacking me. When was this? PhilyEc has been applying the only pressure I've felt so far.
5. lolwut
6. bzzzt

So I agree that you can't just ignore what our predecessors did. Part of the burden of being a replacement is that you have to account for the actions of the one you replace. Cyren and I shouldn't be considered "innocent" just because we replaced in, so if you have an issue with something our previous selves said, feel free to question it.

I'll throw another acronym out there: FUD. Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. That's what Shotty is trying to spread to the town by making a bunch of baseless accusations and ignoring cases against him. Shotty really needs more votes.

This post is deeply scummy.
1. He dismisses Shotty's arguments as OMGUS without examining their validity.
2. He attacks a strawman, claiming Shotty supported lynch all lurkers.
3. He attacks Shotty with rhetoric (e.g. huge cloud of smoke, FUD) rather than concrete points.
4. He refuses to engage Shotty's responses, then calls Shotty out for ignoring his points.

I honestly went into this analysis thinking I would vote Shotty, but a close look at Papa Zito's posts has changed my mind.

unvote, vote: Papa Zito

p.s. there's more to come on the other players

[qwints]

The Corporation:
Attacked philly pretty hard, then said he thought he was town after Phily explained himself.
Started the shotty wagon based on shotty's 'lack of content' - a theme zito picked up

Not much to go on or latch onto.


Phily- too passionate for me to get a read on right now

He's backed off his aggressiveness after being called out on it. That's pro-town, but not necessarily a tell on his alignment.

Giskard- has quietly built a pretty solid case on falko. He seems to have kept his head down. I can't put my finger on it, but something feels scummy about his posts. That said, he's not near my top suspect at this time.

Gadget- A mixed bag. He's a bit of an active lurker but has bursts of good content.

falko - I have a hard time understanding him. He certainly requires an in-depth re-read.

and I've already expressed my comments on Cyren.

OK, thematic analysis is next.