Mini 761 - Game Over

[Zachrulez]

Now to your "case."

I think I have the right lynch for today now.

Hoopla has Zach in her top two potential scum combos. Which leads me to believe she and Zach aren't scumbuddies. (Given those possibilities, I'm not sure why her vote's on Lester.)

This doesn't prove anything.

Hoopla mentions that Zach and I aren't in cahoots, given our conversations earlier...and it's been mentioned in the past that one of us is likely scum. I'm not.

This doesn't prove anything. You're presuming Hoopla is not scum herself, and asserting that she's correct about one of us being scum. HORRIBLE LOGIC.

Maybe this exchange between Alex and Zach is legitimate, maybe it's some big charade...I don't know. But Alex seems the more town of the two to me.

This is not evidence. There is no logic to follow to any conclusion.

Zach's vote (as well as others') is on Lester. I just think that's too too easy...based on dictionary-definition scumtells, but ones that have explanations here. I think it's scum trying to win the game right here with the easy lynch.

This is nothing more than speculation. Your entire premise assumes that Lester is town. You can't know that for sure. Even worse is that you are making me solely responsible for the votes and case against Lester.
I can't understand how you fail to understand that this is why your case sucks.

And, let's be honest, I'm at serious risk of being nightkilled here, with our apparent nightkiller supposedly having a case on me. So I honestly think my vote should have some extra weight...especially considering that it's been acknowledged that Zach and I are almost definitely not both scum,

but one of us very well may be.

And it's not me.

When you take the bold into account, it doesn't sound like you're convinced.

Zach's a great player. He's not going to give scumminess away. You have to think more subtly.

This is the reason you're voting for me, despite whatever else you say.

Fear that I am scum.

Otherwise known as an appeal to fear.

[Stephoscope]

This is the reason you're voting for me, despite whatever else you say.

Fear that I am scum.

Otherwise known as an appeal to fear.

Let it be known that, in his effort to disparage my logic, Zach (who has been claiming I'm scummy) slipped up and showed that he knows I'm town.

[Zachrulez]

A slip? Are you kidding me?

Your entire reason for voting me is an appeal to fear.

Not that you can't be scum and pretending that you're worried I'm scum.

Stop being stupid.

[Zachrulez]

And let me emphasize AGAIN that using "fear that I am scum" as a reason for voting me does NOT depend on your alignment. just in case there's someone braindead enough to think that it does.

I'm not going to stand by and let you try to push it as a scum slip to get me lynched before someone realizes what I actually said.

[Stephoscope]

I'm not going to stand by and let you try to push it as a scum slip to get me lynched before someone realizes what I actually said.

You can deny it all you want, but you totally slipped. You had been repeatedly calling me scummy, and then you just then said I am voting for you because I am afraid you're scum.

Obviously, if I were scum, I wouldn't be afraid of you being scum.

Your massive hypocrisy and sudden confidence in my alignment can only mean one thing.

Thank goodness you don't have an edit button...Believe me, all I want to focus on is "what [you] actually said", not your rush to twist it around now.

[Zachrulez]

This is the reason you're voting for me, despite whatever else you say.

Fear that I am scum.

Otherwise known as an appeal to fear.

FACT: What I said was that your reason for voting for me was fear that I was scum.

MYTH: You are interpreting it as a direct implication that I am saying you are afraid I am scum as a townie.

There's another explanation for this.

That being what I actually said was that you're using fear that I am scum as your reason for voting for me. You could be doing this as town or scum.

You tried to twist and misrepresent my statement into an admission that you wanted or needed to make your case work.

[Stephoscope]

This is the reason you're voting for me, despite whatever else you say.

Fear that I am scum.

Otherwise known as an appeal to fear.

I defy anyone to read this and not think it's clear he thinks I'm voting for him because I'm afraid he's scum.

(Which, incidentally, isn't true. I voted for him because I thought he was scum...and I'm virtually certain of it now.)

It's also noteworthy how he's actually

afraid of being lynched

when no one else has even checked in about this yet. If I was really being stupid or ridiculous or whatever else he claims, he shouldn't be worried.

[Zachrulez]

It's also noteworthy that Stephoscope is

afraid of being vigged

even though Jazz has not checked in with her case on him yet.

[Stephoscope]

It's also noteworthy that Stephoscope is

afraid of being vigged

even though Jazz has not checked in with her case on him yet.

Of course I am, what's your point? Am I supposed to be confident that she will present her alleged case, and I will have time to defend myself successfully, before night falls and I'm supposedly #1 on her suspicions list?

I have no idea what your point was supposed to be there...Jazz has already made it clear she suspects me, whereas it takes two other people being convinced of my case for you to be lynched.

(Unfortunately for you, I'm pretty sure that's going to happen. You're so busted.)

[Zachrulez]

It's also noteworthy that Stephoscope is

afraid of being vigged

even though Jazz has not checked in with her case on him yet.

Of course I am, what's your point? Am I supposed to be confident that she will present her alleged case, and I will have time to defend myself successfully, before night falls and I'm supposedly #1 on her suspicions list?

I have no idea what your point was supposed to be there...Jazz has already made it clear she suspects me, whereas it takes two other people being convinced of my case for you to be lynched.

(Unfortunately for you, I'm pretty sure that's going to happen. You're so busted.)

Being afraid of being vigged is pretty much the same thing as being afraid of being lynched.

So your position is hypocritical.

Not to mention that defensiveness to getting lynched is not really a scumtell in and of itself. Townies have as much reason to fear their own lynch as scum, especially this late in the game.

And if people really think that I'm as scummy as you say. I'm fully willing to be vig killed.

[Stephoscope]

Being afraid of being vigged is pretty much the same thing as being afraid of being lynched.

So your position is hypocritical.

Not to mention that defensiveness to getting lynched is not really a scumtell in and of itself. Townies have as much reason to fear their own lynch as scum, especially this late in the game.

And if people really think that I'm as scummy as you say. I'm fully willing to be vig killed.

My position is not hypocritical

at all

.

Everything is already in place for me to be killed tonight; Jazz has announced she suspects me, but is not giving me an opportunity to defend myself. Whereas there are still two more votes needed to lynch you...either the case against you is solid and you are in real trouble, or, if it's "stupid" as you claim, you shouldn't be worried. Which is it?

Defensiveness to getting lynched is absolutely not a scumtell in and of itself, but you're simultaneously saying the rationale is flimsy but then clearly nervous about it...that's a bit different, no?

And you do realize your stated "willingness" to being vig killed is absolutely worthless, right? Were you trying to imply you have some option to say no?

[Zachrulez]

It really doesn't matter now that I think about it.

You have no way out.

Lynching Dramonic pretty much proves you're scum.

Lynching me will do the same thing once I flip.

So whatever.

[Stephoscope]

The above post made no sense, so I'm just going to post this again so we don't all forget about it, as it's far and away the most damning scumtell we've seen in the game.

This is the reason you're voting for me, despite whatever else you say.

Fear that I am scum.

Otherwise known as an appeal to fear.

[ryan2754]

Alex raises an extremely good point in 833 on the SK/VIG contradiction by dramonic.

I could see dramonic being town, and just being used to a different style of game with different strategy/playstyles.

Any reasoning as to why?
Also, can you reiterate why you think a lynch of dramonic would be what he have been doing before?
Why does dramonic's play make little sense from town and scum perspective? Why does Zach's only make sense from a scum perspective?

I do think the whole "If X is town, Y is scum" and vice versa is often a huge scum tell.

If I were scum, I would have hammered Lester/dramonic no matter whether he is town or scum.

I don't think it's wifom... I think you have a pretty good point there.

I don't get the point she is trying to make.
Alex, why do you think this is a good point?

Zach, you are refuting all of Steph's claims/logic, but you yourself aren't voting him. Any reason why?

Let's not start trying to steer the vig kill. Let them play as they must. I trust them to make their own decisions to the best of their ability.

Although I didn't see much in Steph's initial case, I think she did find something with the Fear I am scum statement. The thing is, both of you are twisting each other's words, and tunnelling hard (despite Zach not following through with a vote), which is anti-town.

It really doesn't matter now that I think about it.

You have no way out.

Lynching Dramonic pretty much proves you're scum.

Lynching me will do the same thing once I flip.

So whatever.

Uhhhhh, more damn scum town pair callings. Again, Zach, this is extremely anti-town. The "If I flip town, steph is scum" doesn't mean anything. You both can easily be town, and both can be scum, trying to "clear" one of you. I've seen it play. Scum/Town pairings is pointless, and is generally a scumtell.

My vote remains. Dramonic has done nothing to allay my suspicions at all, and has actually done worse. If I had two votes, I'd have them both on him, specially his open contradiction of his theories on SK and Vig in this game.

Right now, I have no reason to vote for Zach. I did my vote analysis, and Lester came up as extremely scummy. Dramonic has done nothing to allay my suspicions, but only make them worse.

[ryan2754]

Oh, and just for the record, before anyone hammers:
I want the answers to my above questions
I want Hoopla to chime in some more.
I want dramonic to give us what he feels about every player
I want Jazz to post her case on Steph.

[Stephoscope]

I could see dramonic being town, and just being used to a different style of game with different strategy/playstyles.

Any reasoning as to why?
Also, can you reiterate why you think a lynch of dramonic would be what he have been doing before?
Why does dramonic's play make little sense from town and scum perspective? Why does Zach's only make sense from a scum perspective?

I do think the whole "If X is town, Y is scum" and vice versa is often a huge scum tell.

*snip*

Although I didn't see much in Steph's initial case, I think she did find something with the Fear I am scum statement. The thing is, both of you are twisting each other's words, and tunnelling hard (despite Zach not following through with a vote), which is anti-town.

Sure--because dramonic joined this game having basically no experience on mafiascum...he's talked about playing similar games elsewhere, but his play doesn't seem to make sense. But neither did Wall-E's, and neither did Panzerjager's. I don't really want to get into certain reasons why dramonic's play didn't make sense...but it was apparent to everyone.

I'm not saying dramonic isn't scum--he very well may be. But I am absolutely convinced that Zach is. I was already pretty sure, for the reasons that I already laid out, but the "fear that I am scum" slip totally confirmed it for me. I think it's only Zach doing the twisting of words...he's now claiming that I could be scum trying to prey on other players' fears, but can anyone find me a SINGLE example of anyone else showing "fear" of Zach being scum? I am not twisting anything...there is just no way to read his statement "This is the reason you're voting for me, despite whatever else you say. Fear that I am scum" and not interpret it as him talking about my supposed fear.

We seriously need to lynch Zach today. It is a slam dunk.

[X]

Vote Count

dramonic:

(3) ryan2754, Zachrulez, Hoopla

Zachrulez:

(2) Stephoscope, dramonic

Stephoscope:

(1) Jazzmyn

Not Voting

: (1) alexhans

Vote Threshold

: 4

Happiness with Posting Level

:

Unimportant

Deadline

:

May 26th, 5:00 PM, EST

.

Just a friendly reminder that everyone should read the rules for determining lynches at deadline.

[alexhans]

The minimum number of days for a deadline. Plurality wins - whether it is a player or No Lynch. First on death row, first killed.

In case of a tie then Dramonic should be lynched because he reached 3 first.

on hindsight dramonic's inconsistency condemns him. If deadline was today I would vote for him.

FoS: Dramonic

That, added to the fact that Lester was scummy for all the reasons stated makes him a great candidate for today.

What do you mean, what makes me think that, I just told you, you're defending him as if your life depended on it <<

If you actually made a case I could defend... You just said:

Vote zach because I think Steph is cop

... riiiiight.

Hoop could've added something else... But I guess she at least posted... (ehem, Jazz, ehem)

Steph's excessive emphasys on how pro town he is is beginning to annoy me.

The only thing to be gained from me posting it over and over again is that I might accidentally make some little inconsistency and you might start shouting "scumtell" about it

mmmm *Alexhans frowns*

This doesn't prove anything. You're presuming Hoopla is not scum herself, and asserting that she's correct about one of us being scum. HORRIBLE LOGIC.

QFT

The slip is hard to see... It could be or it could not be...

Your massive hypocrisy and sudden confidence in my alignment can only mean one thing.

Who looks more confident than the other? Steph or Zach? I think you Steph.

It's also noteworthy how he's actually

afraid of being lynched

when no one else has even checked in about this yet. If I was really being stupid or ridiculous or whatever else he claims, he shouldn't be worried.

It's also noteworthy that Stephoscope is

afraid of being vigged

even though Jazz has not checked in with her case on him yet.

lol
epic duel....

(Unfortunately for you, I'm pretty sure that's going to happen. You're so busted.)

Expressing confidence will only get you so far...

You're not convincing me AT ALL with your Zach case.

And if people really think that I'm as scummy as you say. I'm fully willing to be vig killed.

This kind of statements are totally irrelevant.

Lynching Dramonic pretty much proves you're scum.

And if Dramonic isn't scum?

Lynching me will do the same thing once I flip.

So you think Steph is scum?
Why not vote him instead of Dramonic? (Jazz is voting him and maybe 2 more would too)

If I were scum, I would have hammered Lester/dramonic no matter whether he is town or scum.

I don't think it's wifom... I think you have a pretty good point there.

I don't get the point she is trying to make.
Alex, why do you think this is a good point?

Why do people keep calling Steph she when HE clearly said HE was a HE?

Is it so hard to look my next post? I inmediatly realized it was not.

If I were scum, I would have hammered Lester/dramonic no matter whether he is town or scum.

I don't think it's wifom... I think you have a pretty good point there.

mmm... my bad... actually, you wouldn't buss him if you though you were going to get killed by jazz...

Zach, you are refuting all of Steph's claims/logic, but you yourself aren't voting him. Any reason why?

^^this

Oh, and just for the record, before anyone hammers:
I want the answers to my above questions

I want Hoopla to chime in some more.
I want dramonic to give us what he feels about every player
I want Jazz to post her case on Steph.

I endorse this.

Sure--because dramonic joined this game having basically no experience on mafiascum...he's talked about playing similar games elsewhere, but his play doesn't seem to make sense. But neither did Wall-E's, and neither did Panzerjager's

You didn't think about that when you voted Wall-e... And Dramonic has a whole Pitstop-Lester background that doesn't help him at all.

We seriously need to lynch Zach today. It is a slam dunk.

I seriously never cared for people pushing lynches.

This is us:

Alexhans
Ryan
Zach
Steph
Jazz/Conspic (claimed vig)
Hoopla/Ash
Dramonic/Lester/Pitstop

Assuming Jazz is telling the truth we have 6 people left.
2 or 3 are scum.
1 lynch and maybe 2 kills tomorrow will give us:
4 people
if scum remains 3 or 2 we're screwed. If scum is 1 and town is 2 we are at lylo.
I don't know if you people have thought it this way...
but we are in a COMPLICATED situation.

Despite anything ryan might say... I think we should read ISO's and look for pairings... Not to be conclusive, but to see what we come out with...

Steph

... you could at least analyze Zach's ISO...

Zach

same thing, inverse...

Hoopla

, Do something! Scumhunt! dramonic is scum? With whom?

Lester/Steph - Lester removes his vote quite early when jumping into the game. He dismisses Steph and his ties remain minimal. Neutral on this.

Lester/Zach - Zach has some early interactions with Pitstop who did fuck all really, but was quick to get distracted and focus on other areas. I like this scum tell, and find it has some merit, showing suspicion but not really doing anything about. Zach votes Lester now on D2, amongst a cloud of Panzer suspicion, and manages to wriggle out of his vote a couple of pages later to Alex.

Lester/alex - Don't know, Lester seems to earnestly attack alex a couple of times, but judging from some of Lester's play I don't think he would have such a good handle on bussing if he's scum. Unlikely combo.

Has something of this changed? One is more like/unlikely?

Dramonic

, if you're town you need to start giving your opinions on the game (we still have the impression you haven't really read it) and what you think about every player.

ryan

, keep posting... we need your thought processes.

jazz

, ..., You're the supposed vig... no one is lynching you... we NEED you too.

[ryan2754]

V/LA until Monday night

Going to the Indy 500

[Stephoscope]

Steph's excessive emphasys on how pro town he is is beginning to annoy me.

What exactly are you talking about here?

The slip is hard to see... It could be or it could not be...

Which slip? The "you're voting for me because of fear" one? That was Zach slipping up and revealing he's scum, in his effort to claim my logic was fallacious. There is no other explanation.

Who looks more confident than the other? Steph or Zach? I think you Steph.

Confidence is one thing, but Zach's hypocrisy and total shift is quite another.

Expressing confidence will only get you so far...

Agreed...I can't lynch the scum without your help. I'm pretty certain you're town, and I'm also pretty certain I'm getting killed tonight. Can you help me?

You're not convincing me AT ALL with your Zach case.

It's not for lack of trying. This is how my time on mafiascum has been. I eventually figure out the scum, but then can't ever convince people to vote the right way.

Steph

... you could at least analyze Zach's ISO...

I have already done so, but will try and post more about this.

[dramonic]

I'll post my analysis soon, once I'm at the right house.

[Zachrulez]

Expressing confidence will only get you so far...

Agreed...I can't lynch the scum without your help. I'm pretty certain you're town, and I'm also pretty certain I'm getting killed tonight. Can you help me?

Despite all this back and forth and Jazz's stated suspicion of you, there's absolutely no guarantee that you're going to die tonight. This does absolutely nothing to help the town.

You're not convincing me AT ALL with your Zach case.

It's not for lack of trying. This is how my time on mafiascum has been. I eventually figure out the scum, but then can't ever convince people to vote the right way.

This is an appeal to emotion.

[X]

Vote Count

dramonic:

(3) ryan2754, Zachrulez, Hoopla

Zachrulez:

(2) Stephoscope, dramonic

Stephoscope:

(1) Jazzmyn

Not Voting

: (1) alexhans

Vote Threshold

: 4

Happiness with Posting Level

:

Unimportant

Deadline

:

May 26th, 5:00 PM, EST

.

Prodding Jazzmyn.

[alexhans]

Steph's excessive emphasys on how pro town he is is beginning to annoy me.

What exactly are you talking about here?

I'm talking about your constant I'm pro town Ate's (Appeal to emotion)

Confidence is one thing, but Zach's hypocrisy and total shift is quite another.

total shift from what to where?

I've been fast reading Zach and Steph and can't find a reason to think they're better lynches than Pitstop/Lester/Dramonic... I wanted to do a pbp analysys but I'm in no mood for it.

Jazz doesn't appear. Hoopla neither. Ryan is V/La. Steph doesn't post his ISO read....

I'm willing to hammer.

Dramonic should claim before I do

. Maybe it can change things although I can only see one thing that would make me change my mind.

[Zachrulez]

Where the heck is Jazz?