Mini 167 - Les Miserables Mafia. Game over!

[MeMe]

Basically, I didn’t feel his actions pre-claim made sense for the role he’s claiming, nor do I understand why he is so shocked that people are disbelieving him. In retrospect, maybe I should have simply said that.

Interesting that you and I have voiced opposite reactions on this.

[LoudmouthLee]

The witty girl comment was a failed attempt at humor. Please disregard.

Just a few notes after reading.. A game like this would definately have Cosette as a character. Not only that, Emp, but Viking ALSO validated Cosette in the game by spouting out his mason mumbo jumbo before this started. No one, in a matter of MANY posts, have counterclaimed Cosette.

Am I still lying about my role? Seems like you're just trying to get rid of me.

unvote: MeMe, Vote: Tyger

I never said I was a doc. I played my role to the best of my ability. It wasn't meant to be.

[LoudmouthLee]

LoudmouthLee, I personally do not believe this claim.

Before this claim it was mentioned how powerful the town must be, due to there being two masons. If your claim is true, as vikingfan points out, the town is far too powerful.

There's also the issue of us not making you claim, followed by you coming out with your role unprompted. This seems a little incongruous (not that I can spell incongruous).

In addition to this, in [158]:

Triple post- Posting elsewhere and not here? Mainly because I feel the conversations here have been relatively hogwash and running me around in circles. I'm not going to post for the sake of posting. I'll post when I have something to say.

Surely if we're talking hogwash, you should (a) come and point that out, (b) explain why we are, and (c) promote some other idea or something.

Having seen you seemingly contradict yourself several times in this thread about your role (that you brought up, tried to surpress, jumped up with a character claim, avoided claiming role, and now claiming), I now feel happy enough to place my first

Vote: LML

By listening to others, you gain a great deal of knowledge. I was listening, not posting.

[LordKrishna]

Thanks, MeMe and EmpTyger for your clarifications. I now understand where you stand.

I'm leaning more on MeMe's side

in re:

LoudmouthLee -- it seems to make sense to me why he would claim in that particular manner, especially as the Town had just seen a Mason group claim and say that they were Pro-Town. Perhaps he felt that claiming his character would convince us of his innocence (thinking that if Marius and Enjolras are Pro-Town, then surely so is Cosette) -- this seems to have backfired on him a bit, though! It also *could* make sense for him trying to draw Mafia fire by not telling them that he's unkilable.

The other possible explanation, that he is scum, and constructed all this as a means of establishing credibility, just doesn't seem to add up to me. He is almost certainly going to be investigated by the Masons (and possibly a cop?), and so, if he were scum, he'd be dead meat tomorrow. (Basically, I think it a ridiculously stupid way to draw attention to himself if he were scum). I'll still be watching out for Cosette, though. Who knows if she has a dagger hidden up her sleeve...?

I still don't get why LML has switched his voting patterns (as I noted in my last post), so I'll continue to wait for him to post, rather than speculate egregiously...

vikingfan and ChanglingBob
I still think your revolutionary gang is whacko, but I'm willing to accept you're Pro-Town, on the grounds that if you weren't, we'd have very little chance. I think the most likely possibility (and I forget who brought it up first), is that you are Good Guys, but a little crazy (with Romantic notions of liberty/freedom, which at the time of

Les Miserables

is, of course, considered crazy), so if you try to recruit the Mafia, you die.

-K

[Mr Stoofer]

Wow!

Just got back from a long weekend away and the huge amount of points posted in the meantime has overloaded my brain.

Given we are making such little progress, I'm going to throw out 2 radical suggestions for general discussion. Plerase do not lynch me for making these suggestions, they are just suggestions for discussion.

1. My role PM makes it pretty obvious who the scum are. Everyone could claim their names and then we would either have our scum or 1 or more liars. Of course, this option requires some trust to be placed in me. [I would have to make a detailed claim first.]

2. We lynch EmpTyger since he was first person to appear scummy and managed to talk himself out of a lynch merely by appearing rational rather than by offering any "proof" such as a claim.

For what it is worth, LML's claim sounds completely plausible to me and I cannot at this stage beleive that CB and vikingfan are scum because if they were CB coming out and confirming vikingfan was stupidly risky. (That was the basis for the point I was trying to make in post [126].)

[Mr Stoofer]

Wow!

Just got back from a long weekend away and the huge amount of points posted in the meantime has overloaded my brain.

Given we are making such little progress, I'm going to throw out 2 radical suggestions for general discussion. Plerase do not lynch me for making these suggestions, they are just suggestions for discussion.

1. My role PM makes it pretty obvious who the scum are. Everyone could claim their names and then we would either have our scum or 1 or more liars. Of course, this option requires some trust to be placed in me. [I would have to make a detailed claim first.]

2. We lynch EmpTyger since he was first person to appear scummy and managed to talk himself out of a lynch merely by appearing rational rather than by offering any "proof" such as a claim.

For what it is worth, LML's claim sounds completely plausible to me and I cannot at this stage beleive that CB and vikingfan are scum because if they were CB coming out and confirming vikingfan was stupidly risky. (That was the basis for the point I was trying to make in post [126].)

[MeMe]

If your role makes it "pretty obvious" who the scum are, it makes sense to me that you'd have been interested in encouraging claims rather than quashing them.

So, how do you explain...

* I am against any sort of role/character claim at this stage for many reasons including the fact that trying to outguess the mod's allocation of characters to roles is pointless.

and

Vote: the next person to speculate as to the role which the mod has assigned to any character from the book

.

...?

Your earlier emphatic "don't do it" attitude about role discussion doesn't seem to jive with your current claim to know which roles are scum roles.

Regardless, if making a "detailed" claim of your role is what you wanna do, I'm willing to hear you out.

[vikingfan]

I'll be gone for the weekend starting sometime Friday afternoon until sometime Sunday night.

[EmpTyger]

I wish I could just tell everyone to ignore [170], for it was poorly worded to begin with, my attempts to clarify aren’t helping, it seems to have been misinterpreted, and most of all it primarily deals with tangential or hypothetical situations. But I personally hate it when points are allowed to drop without being addressed, so let me try once more to defend myself.


LML:

<snip>A game like this would definately have Cosette as a character. Not only that, Emp, but Viking ALSO validated Cosette in the game by spouting out his mason mumbo jumbo before this started. No one, in a matter of MANY posts, have counterclaimed Cosette.

vikingfan was the one who speculated that you weren’t Cosette, in [160]. Krishna’s responded in [169] that a hypothetical real Cosette may as well come forward. I was responded to Krishna about the merits of counterclaim, which I thought purely theoretically because

I believe, and have believed, that you are Cosette.

Am I still lying about my role? Seems like you're just trying to get rid of me.

My suspicion of you does not stem from your claimed *character*, but your claimed *role*. I believe you are Cosette. I am skeptical you are unnightkillable, and that you are protown. I have listed my suspicions repeatedly, and you have not once addressed them. How is this different from your own suspicion of bob’s and vikingfan’s claims? This isn’t personal... except insofar as your only defense seems to be ad hominem attacks against me.

I have a very hard time believing that the game was set up to allow 4 players {Enjolras, Marius, Eponine, Cosette} the ability to confirm each other as innocent and then recruit others. So I conclude one of 3 things: either (1) someone’s lying about their claim, or (2) at least one of those 4 are antitown, or (3) the mafia has no chance of winning (in which case it almost doesn’t matter how we act today, since the town will ultimately win). Based on your behavior throughout the game (which I’ve listed elsewhere and you’ve never offered a defense for) I believe you most likely for source for (1) and (2).

<snip>I never said I was a doc. I played my role to the best of my ability. It wasn't meant to be.

That was an example I was trying to use but made it very badly. Rather than try again I’ll just concede. So let’s assume you played your role as perfectly as possible. How does that explain any of your other behavior, any of the points of suspicion that have been raised against you? Let me list them again:

1) At the beginning of the game, you thought Javert was mafia. Later you say that your role leads you to suspect Javert is not mafia.
2) You refuse to answer questions about (1), claiming that you do not wish to reveal details of your role.
2a) You still refuse after your role is revealed.
2b) What you have revealed does not contain any reason for (1) or (2).
3) You adamantly refuse to reveal any details of your role, but unprompted bring up information derived from your role as well as the claim that you are Cosette.
3a) You act though Cosette is so strong a claim that no one should suspect you, yet did not make this claim earlier, when initially pressured about your role.
4) You repeatedly lurk when the game is, according to you, going in the wrong direction. However, you do not attempt to move the direction of the game in another direction.
4a) ...except to attack those who are skeptical of you based on the unanswered (1) through (4).
5) You vote vikingfan immediately after vikingfan unvotes you, announcing that he will test you tonight. If you are telling the truth, why suspect him?
[6) I personally am skeptical of your roleclaim]
[7) I personally am skeptical that the town could be as strong as everyone has thus far claimed]

I am not “just trying to get rid” of you. I am trying have my suspicions of you addressed, despite your best efforts to evade providing explanations.

So ignore (6) and (7) if you want, since I may be alone in holding them. I don’t think I’m alone in holding any suspicion of you, as quite recently some of them were voiced by other players. Until I hear something plausible or something more suspicious arises, I see no reason to drop the matter, much less unvote you.


Stoofer:
I think the first of your 2 suggestions is much better than the second. In other news, the Pope is Catholic.
My opinion probably carries very little weight on that matter, since I do have an obvious conflict-of-interest, but I’d rather LML revealed who he believes mafia characters are before you went.

I would also like you to clarify the point MeMe raised in [181]...

[LoudmouthLee]

Repeatedly lurk? I went a few days without posting. I promise you, Tyger, I'm one of the leaders in posts in this game.

As for your clarification... and, again, this is just my own rationale...

I decided to re-watch the movie version of Les Mis. A scene in particular that stood out to me was the "Master of the House" scene... the scene in which my role, Cosette, was THENARDIER'S own personal slave...

And no matter what.. no matter how hard they tried, they didn't bring her down too far.

I have not dismissed the fact that Javert may still be Mafia... but I don't know who else would be included...

I am worried, as well, about Marius and the revolution. Look at how the play ended.

We can't have that again.

[Mr Stoofer]

If your role makes it "pretty obvious" who the scum are, it makes sense to me that you'd have been interested in encouraging claims rather than quashing them.

So, how do you explain...

* I am against any sort of role/character claim at this stage for many reasons including the fact that trying to outguess the mod's allocation of characters to roles is pointless.

and

Vote: the next person to speculate as to the role which the mod has assigned to any character from the book

.

...?

Your earlier emphatic "don't do it" attitude about role discussion doesn't seem to jive with your current claim to know which roles are scum roles.

Regardless, if making a "detailed" claim of your role is what you wanna do, I'm willing to hear you out.

The reason I didn't want speculation was this. I think I know who the mafia are from my role PM (let's call him/her/them "X"). This information could be very useful if someone claimed to be X. I could then reveal my information and we would have a lynch. What I was afraid of was that a consensus would emerge that X was scum. Then the real X would never claim to be X and my idea wouldn't work. You may think I was being stupid and I might agree with you.

I made my later suggestion because, after reading the very substantial discussion, I felt that we (or certainly I) was no nearer finding a day 1 lynch and I was trying to "think outside the box". As I tried to make clear, I was raising this for discussion. You are quite right that my suggestion is inconsistent with my earlier attitude but I as I said at the time, I was trying to think of "radical suggestions"

[gootentag]

The only way your explaination of who the mafia are holds any weight is if they indeed are someone out of the blue, such as Valjean and Cosette. If "X" as you call him/her/them earlier includes Javert, the Thenardiers or the underground characters mentioned earlier, it seems to me that nobody would naturally claim a role who flavorwise is assumedly scummy - especially if it were correct. However, by stating that you know who the scum roles are, you have lost any power that knowing them gives you - nobody would lie about their roles except scum, and they know which roles to avoid (their own, obv.) You have killed any chances of bringing the mafia out of the woodwork with a true nameclaim, which (depending on who they are) may or may not have been a legitimate tactic.

IMHO however, you are not acting scummy just yet - this just came off to me as bad play. [/rant]

[Mr Stoofer]

gootentag is right and I'm an idiot. Bad play borne of impatience .

[MeMe]

Since I'm still uneasy about lynching either of the masons and I lean more toward believing LmL's actions back up his claim than not, I'm gonna go back to where I was before all the excitement...

vote: gootentag

However, Mr Stoofer has suddenly become a person of interest as well. As I said, his early play doesn't jive with his claim that his role gives him information...and he backed down way too quickly after gootentag ranted at him, in my opinion.

But the rant itself seemed more than a little off to me. Gootentag starts by saying that Stoofer's plan could only work IF the scum are roles that are generally considered innocent...and, um, they very well

might

be, as far as anyone but Stoofer should know. I don't understand why gootentag would rant when he's obviously aware that there's a workable scenario (e.g., if Stoofer thinks his role tells him that, say, Fantine and Eponine are scum). It's true that no one is going to be eager to claim scummy-sounding names...but they may have been willing to claim innocent-sounding ones before before gootentag sounded off what could be interpreted as a warning.

Basically, I just don't see the reason to quash Stoofer's plan before finding out what he thinks he knows. Either Stoofer's scum or the information he claims to have could help us.

[gootentag]

But the rant itself seemed more than a little off to me. Gootentag starts by saying that Stoofer's plan could only work IF the scum are roles that are generally considered innocent...and, um, they very well

might

be, as far as anyone but Stoofer should know. I don't understand why gootentag would rant when he's obviously aware that there's a workable scenario (e.g., if Stoofer thinks his role tells him that, say, Fantine and Eponine are scum).

But if Stoofer is telling the truth, than it is no longer a workable scenario, because the scum would know to avoid claiming names Stoofer knows are scummy (their own.) The only good that can currently come out of the comments Mr. Stoofer has said in sum is a slight reassurance that (if Stoofer really does know who the scum roles are) that someone with a questionable character such as Javert or the Thenardiers can be more comfortable coming out if they are town. However, if he is lying or mistaken about his suspicions as to who the scum are, this may on the other hand be all the more dangerous. I think at this point it is useless to try and get a true nameclaim out of the scum if he's telling the truth.

It's true that no one is going to be eager to claim scummy-sounding names...but they may have been willing to claim innocent-sounding ones before before gootentag sounded off what could be interpreted as a warning.

[MeMe]

But if Stoofer is telling the truth, than it is no longer a workable scenario, because the scum would know to avoid claiming names Stoofer knows are scummy (their own.)

My interpretation of this...

1. My role PM makes it pretty obvious who the scum are. Everyone could claim their names and then we would either have our scum or 1 or more liars. Of course, this option requires some trust to be placed in me. [I would have to make a detailed claim first.]

...was that Stoofer's plan was for him to give a detailed claim of his role -- without exposing the names of the roles he believes to be scum -- and then, if majority wanted to proceed (i.e. agreed that his role seemed pro-town/sane/whatever), we'd all claim OUR names...and then he'd tell us which were scum according to his role. That was just my logical assumption based on the "duh" factor that Stoofer saying the names

first

wouldn't have a chance in hell of working.

Now...in light of my interpretation of Stoofer's plan, it was YOUR post that removed any possibility of it being effective. Of course, Stoofer agreed with you immediately -- so it's possible that he's truly the bad player you accuse him of being and that your post wasn't an attempt to ruin a plan that could have worked well for the town...but the problem with that is that

predicting

that Stoofer would agree with you would have been some feat, which is why I still think that your post is questionable. You neither considered the plan that I thought was obvious nor questioned Stoofer further before assuming the plan was broken. If you consider it from my point of view, my conclusion makes perfect sense. But if you prefer to dismiss me with a roll of your eyes rather than to explore any possibility that there's logic behind the things I post, well -- that's certainly easier on you than typing out a sentence, eh?

Now -- let's look at it from the perspective you're claiming to have: for you, Stoofer's plan post not only doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever...it also goes completely against his early-game posts. Explain to me how your stated conclusion about him is that he's "not acting scummy just yet" but rather just playing bad. I'd have thought that, from your claimed understanding, you'd have been ready to vote him...or at least have found his quick claim of idiocy and agreement to be rather convenient.

[Mr Stoofer]

I understood gootentag's point to be this:

(1) If the scum have obviously scummy roles (gootentag's examples: Javert or the Thenardiers), then my idea is pointless since they would never claim those roles anyway.

(2) If the scum have non-scummy roles (MeMe's examples: Fantine and Eponine) then maybe the scum might have claimed those roles. But since I have now stated stated that I knew who the scum were, they will never claim their true roles.

Therefore, if (1) is true, my idea is simply a vanilla role claim. If (2), then I have thrown away a benefit for the town because the scum now know that their roles give them away (whereas previously they might wrongly have felt safe in claiming their true roles).

If I am scum then my suggested plan must have been a pretty outrageous ruse. As well as drawing attention to myself, at the very best it would have got 1 townie lynched followed by me being turbo-lynched when that person was revealed as a townie.

I am a little surprised that MeMe thinks that what gootentag said is scummy. (I am less surprised that she is concerned by me, but I hope you all will accept that it was just poor play).

FOS MeMe

, I think.

[Mr Stoofer]

I understood gootentag's point to be this:

(1) If the scum have obviously scummy roles (gootentag's examples: Javert or the Thenardiers), then my idea is pointless since they would never claim those roles anyway.

(2) If the scum have non-scummy roles (MeMe's examples: Fantine and Eponine) then maybe the scum might have claimed those roles. But since I have now stated stated that I knew who the scum were, they will never claim their true roles.

Therefore, if (1) is true, my idea is simply a vanilla role claim. If (2), then I have thrown away a benefit for the town because the scum now know that their roles give them away (whereas previously they might wrongly have felt safe in claiming their true roles).

If I am scum then my suggested plan must have been a pretty outrageous ruse. As well as drawing attention to myself, at the very best it would have got 1 townie lynched followed by me being turbo-lynched when that person was revealed as a townie.

I am a little surprised that MeMe thinks that what gootentag said is scummy. (I am less surprised that she is concerned by me, but I hope you all will accept that it was just poor play).

FOS MeMe

, I think.

[gootentag]

The above post(s) sum up relatively well what I was trying to say. The only thing I could add is that if Mr. S is scum himself, this would be an interesting attempt to put someone else's head on the block, and a way of validating his own claim, especially if he has one of the afforementioned "non-scummy" roles.

I too was surprised the Stoofer agreed with my analysis, and that raised an eyebrow for me as well. Mostly beacuse bad play, when confronted, typically dosn't admit to it or honestly doesn't realize it as bad at the time. Stoofer's reaction seemed more like backpedaling with a "yup, just a bad play - move along, nothing to see here" tone.

<snip> if you prefer to dismiss me with a roll of your eyes rather than to explore any possibility that there's logic behind the things I post, well -- that's certainly easier on you than typing out a sentence, eh?

I adressed the remainder of your post in full. The notion that I was acting as some kind of town crier for the scum, rushing to the top of the bell tower shouting, "Attention all mafia - do not reply to that post!" is what I found preposterous. (Hence the rolleyes.) However, since you seem to want a more in depth response on everything you say:

I was not signaling anything here, I was posting my reaction to what was said here in the thread. As opposed to discussing why other people have been posting in other threads or other "hogwash," I was attempting to analize other players actions. I felt there was value in what I had to say so I said it.

[Mr Stoofer]

I too was surprised the Stoofer agreed with my analysis, and that raised an eyebrow for me as well. Mostly beacuse bad play, when confronted, typically dosn't admit to it or honestly doesn't realize it as bad at the time.

I don't have many good qualities but one of them is the ability to admit my mistakes and learn from them.

[EmpTyger]

Well, this is silly- we’re getting nowhere. I think we should just claim out our characters and roles. I may as well go first. I’m Thenardier. Once per night I can target another player and have the Patron-Minette rob them. Last night I targeted Seol, but he didn’t have anything of value on him. I have an unusual win condition: I win when I’m the only one who possesses any valuables. Since my role is rather powerful, to balance it out I appear as mafia when investigated.


LML:
I’m not the only one who noticed your lurking. I find your explanations very weak. Not to mention incomplete; you didn’t address your vote for vikingfan in [166].
I am not yet more suspicious of anyone else, so I’m going to leave my vote for now.


MeMe:
Stoofer already conceded the point, so why attack gootentag for making it? Especially as at the very beginning of the game, you acted very similarly to gootentag when you were pointing out the folly of airing suspicions of Javert in [14]. Can you explain this inconsistency?

And I think you’re wrong in your conclusion that it would have worked well for the town. Stoofer basically outlined the reasoning in [191], but I would like to point out one additional factor: there is a chance Stoofer, even if protown, is wrong in his suspicions. (Especially in light of the fact that LML’s similar assertion was based on complete speculation.) So his suspicion/knowledge may yet have value

provided that the mafia do not know how definite it is.

And this is why I do not think Stoofer should explain further, and why I am becoming suspicious of you. Right now, the mafia might not know what their optimal course of action is. In some cases it would be to claim their true roles rather than take the risk of fabrication; if other cases it would be necessary to claim others since their own roles would mark them. I agree that Stoofer quickly admitted to making a bad play. I agree that gootentag forgave that mistake just as quickly. But neither of those by themself are enough to make me suspicious.

<snip>Basically, I just don't see the reason to quash Stoofer's plan before finding out what he thinks he knows. Either Stoofer's scum or the information he claims to have could help us.

You seem to be going out of your way to attack gootentag, as well as to find a way to get Stoofer’s proposal to work. I’ve said above why I see pushing for Stoofer to clarify his plan as suspicious. As for as gootentag, the error was made before he even posted in this discussion:

<snip>What I was afraid of was that a consensus would emerge that X was scum. Then the real X would never claim to be X and my idea wouldn't work.<snip>

With 2 people having hinted that they knew from their roles who the mafia are, it’s not like the mafia were going to burst out claiming, regardless of which characters they were or how innocent their characters seemed. (With the obvious assumption that neither LML nor Stoofer are mafia, but that doesn’t matter for this analysis.) So at this point, the idea as proposed wouldn’t work. Which gootentag pointed out, costing the town nothing and potentially leaving Stoofer’s [alleged] knowledge some [potential] value.


Stoofer:
Honestly, I want to laugh in empathy and irony.
I don’t know any good way to differentiate between poor play and something sinisterly deliberate. The best I can think of is to give the benefit of the doubt and see if anything corroborative later comes up, which is what I will do.


All:
I would like to mention that I have an observation that I am very reluctant to mention, lest I “pull a Stoofer”, if you will (no offense). If we become deadlocked, I will speak, but I think there is enough to discuss.

[MeMe]

I agree with MeMe: a Therardier-based mafia seems more likely.

I’m Thenardier.

Thanks. That makes things SO much easier.

unvote: gootentag
vote: EmpTyger

[EmpTyger]

I agree with MeMe: a Therardier-based mafia seems more likely.

I’m Thenardier.

Thanks. That makes things SO much easier.

unvote: gootentag
vote: EmpTyger

Huh. I guess you’re right. I must be mafia.

Unvote: LoudmouthLee
Vote: EmpTyger

[EmpTyger]

Hold on, I just reread my role, and it seems I missed a small detail. Apparently, all of that stuff I claimed is only true on April 1.

Unvote: EmpTyger
Vote: LoudmouthLee

APRIL FOOLS

[MeMe]

heh.