Open 144 - Near-Vanilla - GAME OVER!

[The Corporation]

Let's leave the analysis of each others scum playing abilities until the end of the game aye? If it does turn out you are scum it speaks a lot to your abilities that you were so comprehensively outed in a "newbie's" mind by page 10.

You seem pretty sure of yourself here. I think your case against Cephir is logical and is one of the best leads we have at the moment, but it's far from a sure bet. I'm not getting a good vibe from your level of confidence, but perhaps that will change as the discussion moves further along.

Also, where has Pitstop been? He was at the root of Cephir's argument, now it seems like he is sitting back and watching the fireworks after Corp started going after Cephir.

That comment largely came as a reply to his attacks on my ability to play scum in the past. I'm confident enough about him. By no means am I totally closed off to the possibility of going after someone else - after all even if he is there are two others.

I would also add where has ODDin and Cephir's investigation of Pitstop gone?

[AndyTony]

You really like asking questions, don't you? =P

Okay, to be fair, there was a point at which I wasn't as certain as I am now. Nothing actually changed... I don't really want to finish explaining for reasons I don't want to discuss yet.

If this is true - - I haven't typed anything from beginning to end of you being unsure, to you being certain - - meaning it was other people hounding on you and Pitstop that made you "certain" - - was it to appease them?

And the "reasons I don't want to discuss" - - I might have missed it in the re-read, but this in addition to what you said you wrote to reind yourself of something to bring up later - - what was it? I'm just as curious, and secrets so early seem sketchy to me.

Please explain!

[yawetag]

Current Phase:

Day 1

Deadline:

June 7, 2009 at 11:59pm Central Time

Votes Needed for Lynch:

7

Current Vote Count

Current as of

Post #252

Pitstop

- 3 (dejkha, ODDin, Cephrir)

dejkha

- 1 (hohum)

Zer0ph34r

- 1 (The Corporation)

Not Voting:

AndyTony, hewitt, Kdub, Khamisa, MadCrawdad, OccamR, Pitstop, Zer0ph34r

[Cephrir]

If this is true - - I haven't typed anything from beginning to end of you being unsure, to you being certain - - meaning it was other people hounding on you and Pitstop that made you "certain" - - was it to appease them?

I thought of something.

And the "reasons I don't want to discuss" - - I might have missed it in the re-read, but this in addition to what you said you wrote to reind yourself of something to bring up later - - what was it? I'm just as curious, and secrets so early seem sketchy to me.

It's the same thing. When I talk about it, you'll see why I didn't want to, I promise. I'd like to give a hint or something but then it would probably be obvious. If everyone really insists I'll do it now. It's not as big of a deal as it appears to be, but I'd still rather save it.

[OccamR]

It's the same thing. When I talk about it, you'll see why I didn't want to, I promise. I'd like to give a hint or something but then it would probably be obvious. If everyone really insists I'll do it now. It's not as big of a deal as it appears to be, but I'd still rather save it.

Are you talking about a role ability you have?

[AndyTony]

If it were a role, that would constitute a big deal, so I definitely want to know.

Ceph, what's the big idea/secret?

[The Corporation]

If it were a role, that would constitute a big deal, so I definitely want to know.

Ceph, what's the big idea/secret?

The bigger deal is why did he feel the need to pop the "reminder" into the public thread. There are simpler solutions to reminding yourself. IMO it's just to push a vague 'I know something you don't know, so don't lynch me'. In fact the actual quote states he

will

be alive in a few days anyway. A tad assumptive.

Seriously who has to remind themselves to at the start of the game roleclaim? Maybe we should remind him on the eve of every night to perform his action just incase he forgets.

[The Corporation]

It's the same thing. When I talk about it, you'll see why I didn't want to, I promise. I'd like to give a hint or something but then it would probably be obvious. If everyone really insists I'll do it now. It's not as big of a deal as it appears to be, but I'd still rather save it.

Throw me on the

insist

list.

[Cephrir]

It's the same thing. When I talk about it, you'll see why I didn't want to, I promise. I'd like to give a hint or something but then it would probably be obvious. If everyone really insists I'll do it now. It's not as big of a deal as it appears to be, but I'd still rather save it.

Are you talking about a role ability you have?

It's not. Like I said, it's not really a huge thing like everyone is making it. It's just something that... might modify the behavior of at least one player. Like seriously, it matters so little that I shouldn't have even bothered mentioning it, it wouldn't have mattered much if I forgot. And of course when I am inevitably forced to come out with it today, The Corporation will attack me over it because it's so non-secret-worthy.

IMO it's just to push a vague 'I know something you don't know, so don't lynch me'.

Oh come the fuck on. Now you're just trying too hard to be suspicious of every tiny little thing I do.

[AndyTony]

In all fairness - its not something tiny - you're dangling something over our heads that you didn't have to mention in the first place, and now that expectation builds, it sounds like you're insecure that it'll pay off as something worth hearing.

So what's the secret exactly?

And why are you being manipulative so early? You say it will change how a player acts, are you trying to mislead the town so the player acts a certain way right in to a lynch, and then when they do, you can point and say "I suspected early, see!"

So if you could just come out with it, that would be appreciated

[Cephrir]

Fine, it's being blown so far out of proportion it doesn't matter. I'm not being manipulative, I just didn't want one specific player (you) to be aware of something.

Which is the meta I have of you as scum. Basically in our game as scum together I noticed that you were carefully calculating every move and did every little thing with some purpose behind it. I don't feel that you're playing that way at all in this game and you're being much less careful with your opinion, hence I think you're town. Obviously I would have preferred to have a few more game days on which to base this, but then I stupidly went and reminded myself inthread.

In before anguished cries of how that wasn't worth being secretive followed by votes.

[AndyTony]

It's not a matter of it not being secretive, it just would have helped me understand where your mind set was when it came to agreeing with any other player on my status/that whole pitstop debacle.

[MadCrawdad]

posting limited until Tuesday.

[Kdub]

I would also add where has ODDin and Cephir's investigation of Pitstop gone?

A fair point. I'm wondering why ODDin and Pitstop stopped posting once you started going after Cephir. One would think they would contribute to the discussion since it was Cephir's interaction with them that drew suspicion. Can both of you comment on Corp's argument against Cephir?

[ODDin]

Okay, sorry I didn't come back on Friday as I hoped I would, but better late than never, I guess.

In all fairness, I don't like neither Cephrir's nor The Corporation's play at the moment.

But first of all, Pitstop:

Ok, so I will admit the comment I made about the opinion statement was wishy-washy, but I think you're misinterpreting some of it.

I never said he was changing his opinions, I just said his opinions aren't really helping. However, like I said, this is wishy-washy because you point out here that he stuck by his opinions, and I agree with that and it's logical.

I was trying to say that we weren't accomplishing anything. We were laying our cards out on the table, but we never used them and so that's what I'm getting at. This may come across like I just think we should lynch anyone, which isn't true. But what I do feel is that we need to do at least some voting that isn't random, rather than just wasting our time posting opinions 24/7.

But the game is picking up now and so this can be semi-disregarded due to the fact that many people are voting for those who they are suspicious of.

This actually makes some sort of sense, especially considering you actually agree that some things I've said were logical. I still don't like what seemed to me like you pushing too hard against AT, but it doesn't look like you're going to be continuing that line of reasoning, so I can't really push further in that direction. However, I'm more inclined to think that you're not going to continue this line of reasoning since you've seen it's not fruitful - wagon doesn't work, so let's back up.
This looks especially bad considering your inactivity right now. I don't really know if you're active lurking or not, but it's a rather bad time to lurk. It would make perfect sense if you're just waiting to see where the wind blows - should you go with Cephrir or with Corp. So, I would really apprectiate your opinion on this matter ASAP.

Regarding the case on Cephrir: the initial case isn't that strong. However, the discussion raised some all new points against him.
1) Cephrir quickly followed me and put a 3rd vote on Pitstop. Also, the compliment made toward me might have been an attempt at buddying. He knows I'm town, so he's trying to make me think like my argument is solid and good. That's pretty much the original case. It's not that strong in an on its own, but it has a certain point.
2) Cephrir has been quite busy invalidating all arguments against him by making those following them feel bad about themselves and painting them as bad players. He's been accusing Corp of being a newbie - that isn't helpful, an argument is an argument. Later he says:

@Everyone agreeing with a case that doesn't exist: WTF is wrong with you.

This also isn't helpful. Would you have reacted the same way had they been following that same argument against someone else?
3)

Also, why the hell is everyone all over me about this vote and not ODDin?

This is just horrible. Please notice that Cephrir doesn't find me scummy. At no point does he bring an argument against me. Also, he's not merely asking "why is it that you find me scummy and you don't find ODDin scummy". He says "why are you over me and not ODDin". As in, lynch him, not me.
4) He's been accusing Corp of saying he's scum and basing his logic on that. Then at some point he says "I'm voting pitstop because he's scum". No, you're voting for him because you think he's suspicious. (If you're town to begin with, that is.) That's something of a contradiction.
5) On the issue of AT and the secrecy thing going on lately... well, meh. It does make sense, in a way, although it was poorly handled. OccamR might be suspected of rolefishing, but then again, it was kinda asked for.

Corp:
That being said, point 4 above is still correct. A lot of your logic is based on "I think Ceph is scum, now why would a scum do this and that". Especially the "math" argument is disturbing. This is way too much maybes and ifs that don't really go anywhere. Attempting to do such calculations on D1 is fruitless, and only thing it can lead to is you being stuck in the mind frame that your calculations MUST be correct, and then being unable to view things in a different light.
You've been also been saying things like "I'm trying to lynch you because you're scum", which suggest of the aforementioned counterproductive reasoning.

Khamisa:
Even after I've specifically said that I think you're trying to appear active by discussing something (which we've finished discussing long ago), you're still not addressing the current issues. It certainly doesn't remove my suspicions that you're attempting to fake scumhunting.
However, you seem to be about as detached in another game I'm playing with you, so I'm less confident of this actually being a scum-tell.

huhum:
You said you'd "catch up today" five days ago.

So, while the discussion has made me more suspicious of pretty much everybody involved (except perhaps AT, still pretty neutral on him), my biggest suspect at the moment is Cephrir. After him I'd go with Pitstop, Corp and Khamisa falling somewhat behind.

Thus,

unvote, vote: Cephrir

[Cephrir]

1) Cephrir quickly followed me and put a 3rd vote on Pitstop. Also, the compliment made toward me might have been an attempt at buddying. He knows I'm town, so he's trying to make me think like my argument is solid and good. That's pretty much the original case. It's not that strong in an on its own, but it has a certain point.

First of all, I thought it was the second vote. As evidenced, I believe, by me calling it the second vote in a later post. Second, I said you had a good case and agreed with you. Let's say this is genuine. How could I possibly have worded that post agreeing with you to possibly not be seen as buddying?

2) Cephrir has been quite busy invalidating all arguments against him by making those following them feel bad about themselves and painting them as bad players.

Meh, just Corp really. As for everyone else I'm honestly wondering what merit they see in his case.

He's been accusing Corp of being a newbie - that isn't helpful, an argument is an argument. Later he says: (insert stuff here) This also isn't helpful. Would you have reacted the same way had they been following that same argument against someone else?

This much is fair. To answer your question, I don't know.

This is just horrible. Please notice that Cephrir doesn't find me scummy. At no point does he bring an argument against me. Also, he's not merely asking "why is it that you find me scummy and you don't find ODDin scummy". He says "why are you over me and not ODDin". As in, lynch him, not me.

No, I don't find you scummy; I was just questioning what set the two of us apart in Corp's opinion because the reasons he was attacking me seemed applicable to you as well; knowing that I'm not scum I obviously wouldn't suspect you for the same actions but you get it.

4) He's been accusing Corp of saying he's scum and basing his logic on that. Then at some point he says "I'm voting pitstop because he's scum". No, you're voting for him because you think he's suspicious. (If you're town to begin with, that is.) That's something of a contradiction.

"Because he's scum" = slightly overconfident way of saying I find him suspicious.

[The Corporation]

Corp:
That being said, point 4 above is still correct. A lot of your logic is based on "I think Ceph is scum, now why would a scum do this and that". Especially the "math" argument is disturbing. This is way too much maybes and ifs that don't really go anywhere. Attempting to do such calculations on D1 is fruitless, and only thing it can lead to is you being stuck in the mind frame that your calculations MUST be correct, and then being unable to view things in a different light.
You've been also been saying things like "I'm trying to lynch you because you're scum", which suggest of the aforementioned counterproductive reasoning.

The calculation comment was a long hand way of saying, Ceph had spotted a target which could potentially get enough votes. The breakdown of the votes was to explain why Pitstop would be a lucrative target if Ceph were mafia. As you seem to concur he just pushed a little to early and with a little too much glee and gave it away.

By no means do I think my "calculations" are correct, they are ruberry at best, but I think they still do prove the point that Pitstop probably was the most convinient lynch - despite showing no real mafia signs to speak of.

I haven't said anything like "I'm trying to lynch you because you're scum". I said something like "If you turn up scum that would be relatively emabrressing for you" largely because he was mocking my playing style. Which is another point - the whole tenor of his replies is 100% assured I am a newbie town, no mention of the possibility I am mafia with a well directed (and increasingly successful it seems) attack. Post 220 is a good example of this, there are several others too.

[ODDin]

First of all, I thought it was the second vote. As evidenced, I believe, by me calling it the second vote in a later post. Second, I said you had a good case and agreed with you. Let's say this is genuine. How could I possibly have worded that post agreeing with you to possibly not be seen as buddying?

That is why I feel this, on its own, isn't really strong. However, it does tie up well into the picture I get from all other stated points.

Meh, just Corp really. As for everyone else I'm honestly wondering what merit they see in his case.

But you have put it in a very certain way, as if trying to make people thing "damn, I'm going to look like an idiot if I follow this case". No matter what we might think or say, we often care how others see us and judge us, and attempting to create a parallel of "you follow the case against me = you're an idiot" can be a very useful strategy for scum. This also ties in to the previous point (you potentially buddying me) - it draws a picture of a scum with a tactic of manipulating feelings and emotions.

No, I don't find you scummy; I was just questioning what set the two of us apart in Corp's opinion because the reasons he was attacking me seemed applicable to you as well; knowing that I'm not scum I obviously wouldn't suspect you for the same actions but you get it.

I get it. Again, it's all in how you put it. It didn't sound like valid questioning, it sounded like "lynch him, damn it, not me!". You can say it's just my imagination and you didn't mean it, but I saw what I saw.

"Because he's scum" = slightly overconfident way of saying I find him suspicious.

Considering this overconfidence had no real basis - my argument against Pitstop was fine, but it wasn't rock solid, - and considering how you accused Corp of him being overconfident, this just seems strange.

* * *

The calculation comment was a long hand way of saying, Ceph had spotted a target which could potentially get enough votes. The breakdown of the votes was to explain why Pitstop would be a lucrative target if Ceph were mafia. As you seem to concur he just pushed a little to early and with a little too much glee and gave it away.

By no means do I think my "calculations" are correct, they are ruberry at best, but I think they still do prove the point that Pitstop probably was the most convinient lynch - despite showing no real mafia signs to speak of.

The problem is, this very same calculation would've worked against pretty much everyone. dejkha's vote was more or less RVS, Cephrir couldn't be sure it'd stay there. So basically, Pitstop was "lucrative" only because there was one towny actually maknig an argument against him. Of course, one is more than nothing, but it's not like townies won't accuse people over the day. Pitstop was more or less the first (although there were sort of arguments brought up against people earlier in the day), but even if Cephrir is scum, it'd be stupid of him to think Pitstop would be the last.
That's why your calculations look smart but actually mean nothing other than "there was one towny already voting for pitstop". And if I'm scum and not town, these calculations are even more worthless - the one your scumbuddy just voted for is hardly a lucrative target.

As for your last point, it's not fully correct. The fact alone that you've attacked him doesn't mean you're scum. Cephrir, even if he's town, is in his right to believe you're a town making a mistake and not scum. I don't think his posts are indicative of him knowing that you're town and not scum and speaking in that light. Looks like you're trying to cause him to OMGUS vote you more than anything else.

That being said,

are

you mafia with a well directed attack?

[Cephrir]

Which is another point - the whole tenor of his replies is 100% assured I am a newbie town, no mention of the possibility I am mafia with a well directed (and increasingly successful it seems) attack. Post 220 is a good example of this, there are several others too.

Just because I haven't called you scum doesn't mean I'm 100% certain you're town. In my mind I can't help but be a bit suspicious of you, obviously, but I'm aware that I have a natural tendency to feel OMGUSy so I hadn't mentioned it, it's probably just that talking.

But you have put it in a very certain way, as if trying to make people thing "damn, I'm going to look like an idiot if I follow this case". No matter what we might think or say, we often care how others see us and judge us, and attempting to create a parallel of "you follow the case against me = you're an idiot" can be a very useful strategy for scum. This also ties in to the previous point (you potentially buddying me) - it draws a picture of a scum with a tactic of manipulating feelings and emotions.

It can also come from slightly frustrated town. But I suppose I have been doing this.

I get it. Again, it's all in how you put it. It didn't sound like valid questioning, it sounded like "lynch him, damn it, not me!". You can say it's just my imagination and you didn't mean it, but I saw what I saw.

Since you're not allowing me to argue with you here, all I can do is tell you that you're wrong.

Considering this overconfidence had no real basis - my argument against Pitstop was fine, but it wasn't rock solid, - and considering how you accused Corp of him being overconfident, this just seems strange.

Let me try again. "I'm voting Pitstop because he's scum" = "I'm not voting for Pitstop for the reason you put in my mouth". I guess if you're going to see it that way then I can't stop you.

[ODDin]

Since you're not allowing me to argue with you here, all I can do is tell you that you're wrong.

It's a question of interpretation, so I can't really see how we can "argue" about this. I don't know what's going on in your mind so I can't claim to know for certain what you did and didn't mean. From reading your words, I get a certain feeling. Naturally, I don't expect you to say "darn, you're onto me, I am indeed scum". So it's up to other people to judge if they feel the same way or not.

Let me try again. "I'm voting Pitstop because he's scum" = "I'm not voting for Pitstop for the reason you put in my mouth". I guess if you're going to see it that way then I can't stop you.

Oh, got you.

[hewitt]

Okay I really don't like Cephrir's play, especially the whole bit about AT not playing his normal self or whatever that was. That was a whole lot of nothing being dragged out and attempted to made into something, kind of annoying. And I feel like every post has either a hint or sometimes even a load of appeal to emotion in it.

[AndyTony]

That last thought is kind of interesting - I'm not trying to push in on you, but could you supply a few quotes that struck you as appealing to emotion?

[Kdub]

Mod, can we get prods on Pitstop and hohum?

[hewitt]

That last thought is kind of interesting - I'm not trying to push in on you, but could you supply a few quotes that struck you as appealing to emotion?

Here's a couple of examples where it struck me that appeal to emotion could be a read.

Since you're not allowing me to argue with you here, all I can do is tell you that you're wrong.

Fine, it's being blown so far out of proportion it doesn't matter. I'm not being manipulative, I just didn't want one specific player (you) to be aware of something.

And of course when I am inevitably forced to come out with it today, The Corporation will attack me over it because it's so non-secret-worthy.

Oh come the fuck on. Now you're just trying too hard to be suspicious of every tiny little thing I do.

God I am so sick of your snarky attitude. Obviously I was referring to the fact that you seem to expect me to just give up, and you're supposedly finding me suspicious-er for what basically amounts to defending myself from a post full of crap.

Very valid questioning? You didn't even ask me any questions! That was an outright attack, how do you expect me to respond? Would you prefer I not try to disprove your attack? Oh right you would, because you want to lynch me.

[Cephrir]

Okay I really don't like Cephrir's play, especially the whole bit about AT not playing his normal self or whatever that was.

I've been attacked about a lot of things, but the one thing you find most suspicious is that I'm using meta... um, what?

That was a whole lot of nothing being dragged out and attempted to made into something, kind of annoying

That's what I said but no one believed me

@appeals to emotion:
1. could be read that way.
2. that doesn't even make sense.
3. having emotion does not equal appealing to emotion.
4. yeah, fine.
5. see 3.