Mini 792 - Tofu Mafia. Game over!

[SpyreX]

Ok, you caught me. I want you hung up high until your legs stop kicking. Darn, wish my vote was a little more subtle.

Adel voted for you too? How grand!

You what else? Korts has expressed interest in reiterating his points against you. Wish he'd hurry up and voted you.

Sarcasm aside, you're way too stubborn to be town (especially in this group). You haven't even tried putting any effort into understanding what town motivations I may have. No, it's all scum motivations, somehow.....

I didn't say anything about the vote. Everything about the

timing

i.e. the fact you have had nothing change in your stance from when you weren't voting me until when you were... except for the fact Adel also voted.

Which, get this, follows what I've been saying about your voting patterns.

1.) Ectomancer says porkens didn't "stick to his vote".
- You repeat said sentiment and vote.

2.) Adel votes for Herod
- You then build your "case" (and dont vote until Herod goes wtf)

3.) I vote for you, give reasons.
- You then rebut. At this point you say I'm 'twisting' your words and bastardizing your statements.
- Adel votes for me
- You THEN vote for me

As for Korts? Whatever. I expect if he votes for me it'll be new and different exciting ground.

And "too stubborn to be town?"
I'll raise that with "too wishy-washy to be town"

Just a gloating scum that wouldn't even consider the opposite point. Should I list every single early wagon I've seen and point out the scum on them? You yourself said that early wagons lead to unnecessary claims. So why not start a wagon and see who's going to request/demand a claim? You don't think that would be beneficial to town? Wagons = good. End of story. Scums use wagons, so we get wagons, we get scums. Me wanting a wagon for this reason does not f-ing make me scum.

And how would you point out the scum on said wagons? Would they, in fact, be the ones that joined on for spurious or non-existant reasons? Or, maybe even, just said "generating content" or what have you?

If thats the case, look in the mirror.

Wagons are a tool. They are not inherently good. The reasons for the wagon forming are the measure of their worth.

As for, scums use wagons... considering that for town to win they must in fact lynch scum... town uses wagons. Scum try to manipulate them in the right direction. Huge difference.

Your proposition of wagoning for the sake of wagoning is scummy. I can't even, from the above paragraph, figure out what your "reason" is.

So, back when I asked you to consider 186-187, you said: "And I missed those two little posts in not checking for posts while I was typing. It doesn't really change anything in my mind though."

Now, you come up with the exact little piece of my quote that you decided to use in your "case". If I'm guilty of only quoting a part of my post when saying that you're bastardizing my words, then you're guilty of only absorbing a part (whichever part serves your scummy little agenda) of my post without paying attention the general message/point of the whole post. Yes, good townies should be open to changing reads. No, it doesn't come naturally to me. Yes, Open 123 is an example of it (and no it's not "I totally am changing this because I lost as town hence I am town now"; you should probably get yourself new midgets, because I won Open 123 as town).

... what?

The first paragraph is: while I was posting you put those two up and as I don't preview I missed them. After reading them, it doesn't change anything in my mind.

How the hell does that apples = b52 bombers in you actively leaving out quotes from yourself in trying to show how I "bastardized" your words is well.

I absorbed the message. I found the reasons for the post unnecessary as town and useful as scum. So, yea, it was absorbed.

I don't even care anymore. This game is supposed to be fun. Instead, I'm irritated to no end. In every game where I try and post more than once a day to play the f-ing game, some douche starts pushing bunk against me. ( http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10182 and http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8600 , if you want other examples of activity = irritation). Score 1-0 for lurking.

I'm tired of this shit, so I'm just going to go back to watching, since it seems that the less I participate, the more fun I have.

It is a game. About doing just this. If you want to lurk after getting called out thats fine. Not going to stop me.

Appeals to emotion are tech.

[Porkens]

Adel, in this game you've refered to your "deep meta analysis" twice, I believe, but I've yet to see any. I assume that is

also

forthcomming?

If I ever "vote for reactions" like Adel's 217, my god I'd be wagoned so fast.

Since the overhaul of EM, I don't think the old links work?

Spring, that's re-read/post promise number...3 now?


Artem I don't think you've voted or unvoted on your own in the last 5 pages. Why do you wait for someone to tell you to do it? ATM you seem to be puppy-dogging Adel. The end of 223 is bizzare to me. I feel for you if you're irritated, but you shouldn't blame other people for it.



I'd love to hang Spring or Artem.

I'd shoot Adel if I were vig.

[Ectomancer]

I've got new meds. At the dose Im taking, I can barely read, its allfuxxy. I have lot of things to say stating about pagre 7, there are some things that need correctiung and I want to re0inforce/dispute the cases.

[Vi]

Catching up.

On Adel: I've done a little reading, and Adel's behavior ITT doesn't seem too inconsistent with what I've read (although this gamewide meta database is certainly new). I don't expect my frustration at this particular corner of the game to improve much because of that, though. I'm not terribly interested in waiting until Adel decides to be (obviously enough for a VI like me to see it) useful, so if you people get tired of waiting too, I'll be up for an Adel wagon.

On Artem vs. Herodotus: Throughout, I overwhelmingly side with Herodotus and would be willing to vote Artem as my non-Adel lynch preference. The counterpoint is in Artem 223. I think RAGEquitting is a powerful Town-tell. Granted, Artem didn't quit so the power of the tell is lessened, but you get the idea.

On Elmo: At first I thought 175 was an extremely Townish post, but as I looked into it I found that I disagreed with a number of Elmo's reasonings, particularly concerning Herodotus (as far as Herodotus being scummy by Post 175 standards instead of Post 75 standards). Elmo's statement calling both SpyreX and Artem Town is interesting, because with that he has effectively written off half the player list as notScum. This is not a move I would expect from scum at all because of how much it shortens Elmo's list of desired mis/lynches.

By the time I reached Porkens 209 in my reread, I decided to go ahead and summarize everything up to that point like this because he basically spoke my mind, only (much, much) more succinctly. If you want me to elaborate on the above, please ask.

-----
@@
-----

How on earth is Adel an easy target? I'd expect that I'm the easiest target in this game.

? Explain this.

-----

Not to be offering Spring a break here, but it seems to me a lot of conversation has concerned her. (which in a bizarre way doesnt quite count as lurking) I could see the reason for just watching to see how all this plays out between the arguments going on.

I haven't seen s-lullaby's name being tossed about much while reading. I don't buy it.

tbqh Ectomancer's posts are drugged beyond use.

-----

Meanwhile the Adel wagon is crap, and I particularly don't like Vi on it.

eh wot
Please explain.

-----

Yes, Troll will almost certainly vote for reasons other than lack of participation as we go forward.

Vi notes the future tense here

The implication from Vi be that Troll no has done so. Vi be welcome to find Troll's votes to be suspicious but the insinuation that them be random be something Troll no appreciates.

If Vi suggested Troll's votes be random, Vi apologizes for while Troll's votes be suspect, they no be random.

Vi's problem with Troll is from Troll's limited input on matters that no concern Troll. Troll be mostly on defense, and while Troll talks about Troll's play paradigms often Vi no sees them in practice.

Also, you're a teacher? Tell me about it later.

-----

And again Porkens sums up my thoughts (more or less) in 226. It's kind of scary.

[Zorblag]

There seems to be some attention on Artem and how him has cast votes recently. While Troll no cares for some of the things Artem has said or done regarding springlullaby, what scum would or wouldn't do regarding wagons, how him expresses his level of suspicion for Herodotus and the how him went about saying what games him has been in, Troll no finds his votes to be problematic. The two most recent (which be the ones that be of more interest in Troll's opinions) seem to be reactionary but Troll no sees them as following Adel as has been charged. With Herodotus it felt like Artem was goaded into voting. With SpyreX the cross voting seems to be a matter of disagreements about how and when bandwagons and meta should be used and the vote from Artem strikes Troll as a frustration vote about the inability to communicate his thoughts in a way that SpreX will accept.

On the whole Troll would put Artem as slightly scummy but not for his votes. On a related note, SpyreX does seem to be less willing than Troll would like to hear Artem's views on bandwagons and meta and the reasons that him has for voting Artem no impress Troll all that much.

springlullaby seem to be stalling rather than contributing. Troll be sure that Troll will shock no one with a

Vote: springlullaby

. In addition to the lack of participation we have post 164 (asking the mod for information about scum's pre-game chatting chances) which strikes Troll as designed to maker her look like she no had that information more than anything else. There no be much to work with here and Troll dislikes what Troll sees. If springlullaby were to be lynched and come up scum then Artem and Ectomancer would be good paths to pursue based on what them have said about her. Porkens strikes Troll as an unlikely partner for her at this time.

populartajo also be worth watching. Him was posting a fair amount in the thread up till Troll asked why him no had time to get out of what him thought of as the random voting stage. Troll accepted his response but then we haven't seen anything since then. Troll asked why him no had done his reread because him had a fair amount of quick back and forth with Adel, Porkens and Vi but nothing which does much to add to the scum hunting.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Elmo]

SpyreX: Tajo put a second vote on someone, which would have led to a wagon; it directly caused Porken's OMG THIRD VOTE soliloquy, for example. He also directly spoke to her in a way that was likely to prompt a response. Porken's joke was ostensibly to fool around.. Herod's was not mucking about, it was more of a way of

doing

something specific, half-seriously justifying his vote in a way that couldn't be immediately attacked. I guess I'm trying to articulate things which are difficult to put into words; I find them to be accurate, though.

For what it's worth, on reflection, I'm somewhat more measured on bandwagoning than I may have come across. Not everything that comes under the banner "bandwagoning" is a good idea; I don't like people semi-randomly being put at L-1 f.e., but I do feel that a few "serious" wagons where no-one knows where they'll end up reveal links between people in a way that doesn't hurt the town. Virtually all of my experiences with bandwagoning have been positive. I guess what I'm saying is that most bandwagoning is good bandwagoning, and that is pro-town, although it's rather No True Scotsman of me I can see how you'd object to "bad" bandwagoning, though, if you thought that was necessarily what all bandwagoning was. Hrm. Maybe we should discuss specific patterns instead of "wagoning".

Sarcasm aside, you're way too stubborn to be town (especially in this group).

Not true. Apparent stubbornness is characteristic of these kinds of town - town fights. It's very, very difficult not to feel hostile towards someone who's attacking you, so when two townies really go at it, it tends to snowball in exactly this manner. I'm serious. Skimming Sarcastro and Blight's fight in Fritz Fest is a great idea here; they pretty much spent enough time and energy fighting that, well,

I used to look forward to reading this thread. Then Sarc and Blight started talking.

Now think about how it looked from their point of view.

On the whole Troll would put Artem as slightly scummy but not for his votes. On a related note, SpyreX does seem to be less willing than Troll would like to hear Artem's views on bandwagons and meta and the reasons that him has for voting Artem no impress Troll all that much.

So your stance on the two squabbling townies is that they're both slightly scummy, but you're staying well away from either for the time being while essentially fanning the flames by agreeing with both of them? That's... uncomforting.

Porkens: I eat WIFOM for breakfast. Yum!
Vi: In what respect to you agree with Scumbucket against Kitten? I feel like we should probably be wagoning someone.

< <

[caf19]

Votecount

Herodotus (2): Elmo, populartajo
Porkens (1): springlullaby
springlullaby (2): Porkens, Zorblag
Zorblag (1): Korts
Adel (1): Vi
populartajo (1): Ectomancer
Artem (2): Herodotus, SpyreX
SpyreX (2): Adel, Artem

Not voting

[Ectomancer]

I'm in the hospital. Over a week, I'm real bad. I hurt myself

[springlullaby]

I totally have not read the last page which have sprung into existence but if I keep postponing this I'll never be up to speed, so here.

@Porkens

1)Did someone say "trying to hard?" Or are you quoting yourself?

2)"keeping" or "sticking," this is starting to give me a twitch! And since you're the third person to say it, offering no new reason to vote me or addressing my explanation...

Unvote. Vote Springlullaby

1. Yes, I'm quoting Spyrex. Is that a motif of suspicion at all? Because I don't see the point. Had I been 'quoting myself', what would have been scummy?
2. I was unconvinced by your first explanaion and I agreed with what Ecto was saying, my vote was a testimony to that. This is a weak point, expecting people to offer new reasons each time they vote is unrealistic. (As a commentary on this, Spyrex did a better job of defending you in later exchanges with Ecto than yourself - I do not know how to place this info yet.)

So, your vote is pretty sloppy here, which I wouldn't have minded given the early stage of the game at the time, but your last comment by which you seem to justify your continued vote on me is weak also.

What a rediculous qeuestion in 164, spring "Hey mod, I should ask this via PM but I want everyone to know I asked it: did the scum get to talk pregame <CAUSE I DONT KNOW IM NOT SCUM>" blarg.

Is that a serious point of contention? If so, I'd like you to explain why you think town would not have asked this question puclicly because I see not.
If you are meant to ask why I asked that question, it's because it crossed my mind while reading some interractions; it is a relevant question because it give an idea as to scum prepardness and it is one which would have deserved a public answer.

I'm not going to push the joke thing further because the way it has been explained is plausible: you may have conceived it as a part of the joke, who knows. But your vote here is very weak, and the rest of your contribution has been lackluster so I'm awaiting your reply with anticipation.

---

@Elmo

1)One thing I dislike about springlullaby's 42 is that she says "Spyrex comes off as weaker in the exchange". That seems to be implicitly polarising; Ecto is attacking Spyrex, so we should be supporting one against the other. The most common situation is that two people arguing are town, purely because most people are town, so I'd have expected her to consider that; scum have a motivation to play townies off against each other, which is what it looks more like.

2)Oddly, I also dislike her conclusion that Ecto is townish, there. It seems too easy. I'm not opposed to the conclusion, but I had a similar thought and then checked myself because it seems unlikely to be a big tell for Ecto; he says himself it's probably null. At least without indication to the contrary, I don't think there's a big enough deviation between alignments for that behaviour, and I wouldn't trust it much if at all, but it's a straightforward enough observation for scum to make to try and appear like they're doing stuff.

This seems to be a lot of commentary for originally a two line sentence, you are kind of squeezing every possible drop out of it.
1)I said 'weaker' I didn't say 'scummy' for a reason, which is that I was not convinced it was a town/scum thing but liked Ecto better so far.
2)What item in Ecto's play are you referring to? I don't even think we are on the same line here, my comment was a general comment about the vibe Ecto gave in his posts. I also said 'townish' which is a weak quantifier in my book.

Elmo, bizarrely your posts are not succinct at all, they are also vague in their intent. I'd like to ask who you think is scummiest at the moment.

---

Comments in no particular order:

- I think the conclusion to Adel's questionnaire thing is weak, but maybe I had unfair expectations. The Herodotus vote I don't like either, it is rather formulaic, and dropped a little too quickly. And the Spyrex vote is an interrogation. I kind of detect the first hints of 'refuge in complexity' in the mystery surrounding Adel's play and this warrant a

FOS

Though I will add here that there is one point I liked v much in Adel's play, and this is her question to Ecto. I think the level of suspicion displayed there is rather townish, but I kind of wouldn't put it past her to be so good that it is fake.

-This lead to: I have to say I found Ecto's personal experience post to be strange, I don't see what you are apologizing for, up to that point your play was perfectly normal looking to me. I've been thinking about the possibility of it being a scum gambit (because it would be a rather brilliant idea actually), and am coming to the tentative conclusion that it is probably not. Because it would require awe inspiring amount of cynicism.

- I've noticed this game has a fair amount of theory battle, and playstyle snobbing, and it would be better if it ceased. I think everyone here already has an individual opinions on how mafia should be played, and we could probably all put a good argument in for it. Playing in such a cast is an interesting prospect but it could also turn quickly into 'how much I despise your playstyle and here are the arguments why' ego fest. The bottom line on this is that we should all keep in mind that we are not going to make other change their opinions if we go into theory/playstyle.
And in the interest of future entente, I'll also list here what make me tick personally:
* People who have the presumption to tell others how they should play, and forget about discerning who is scum and who is town.
* The absence of neutrality of tone. I'm okay with curtness and mafia related aggression, not with disdain and lack of consideration.

---

I agree with the Artem vote.

Spring - is playing pretty much like she did in the other two games (where I knew her alignment to be town); and I still stand by my earlier point that the best way to get SL posting is to start pushing a case on her (and I don't really have the stamina or purpose to do it a third time).

This passage is entirely weird and I think artificial: the fact that the motive by which he is putting me at townish is because I have not contributed is mind boggling, I believe that the furthermost any honest townie can read into a meta back-ed absence is giving a nulltell.

The meta is also off. I contributed much more unprompted in both games we were in.

Then consider the second part of the post which is basically an encouragement for people to 'push a case' on me while having no part of it and having me at 'townish'.

I'm surprised this hasn't raised more red flags because it is quite the scummy.

I also think his defence face Spyrex's case is not good, it is overly exasperated at some point, and make emotional 'I'm intimidated' appeal at other. And his vote on Spyrex is also nebulous. I don't get it.

Unvote Vote Artem

[springlullaby]

Urgh, I didn't see Ecto's post before posting. Please forgive me my comment toward your play if it comes off as cold. Hope you get well soon.

[springlullaby]

springlullaby seem to be stalling rather than contributing. Troll be sure that Troll will shock no one with a Vote: springlullaby. In addition to the lack of participation we have post 164 (asking the mod for information about scum's pre-game chatting chances) which strikes Troll as designed to maker her look like she no had that information more than anything else. There no be much to work with here and Troll dislikes what Troll sees. If springlullaby were to be lynched and come up scum then Artem and Ectomancer would be good paths to pursue based on what them have said about her. Porkens strikes Troll as an unlikely partner for her at this time.

According to you, I'm scum because...I have not posted during 5 days?
What do you think I would accomplish as scum by 'stalling'?
As for the 164 post, which is a repeat of Porkens' argument, see my previous post.

And if I'm scum Artem and Ectomancer would be my buddy because they defended me? And Porkens because he voted me?

These conclusions are remarkably straightforward and lacking of mind screw, which is not a very towny thing in mafia. Your vote is weak here, and the implications you make are even weaker.

-----------------------------------------

I don't even care anymore. This game is supposed to be fun. Instead, I'm irritated to no end. In every game where I try and post more than once a day to play the f-ing game, some douche starts pushing bunk against me. ( http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10182 and http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8600 , if you want other examples of activity = irritation). Score 1-0 for lurking.

I'm tired of this shit, so I'm just going to go back to watching, since it seems that the less I participate, the more fun I have.

This game is heading off into weird territory very fast.

1) Why are you pissed since you seem to think Spyrex is scum?
2) If you want to quit, then quit. Your position here is wholly bizarre, defending against other people case is a requirement in mafia.

I think this is emotional appeal, and I'm not giving you town credit for it.

[springlullaby]

EBWOP

*And Porkens would be town because he voted me?

[populartajo]

Sorry guys, if my V/LA doesnt get better in the following two days, I'd likely ask for a replacement.

Dont worry yet.

[Zorblag]

First off, Ectomancer, do what you need to to take care of yourself. Keep us updated if you can but know that your physical and mental health is more important than this game.

On the whole Troll would put Artem as slightly scummy but not for his votes. On a related note, SpyreX does seem to be less willing than Troll would like to hear Artem's views on bandwagons and meta and the reasons that him has for voting Artem no impress Troll all that much.

So your stance on the two squabbling townies is that they're both slightly scummy, but you're staying well away from either for the time being while essentially fanning the flames by agreeing with both of them? That's... uncomforting.

The assertion that both Artem and SpyreX be townies here nicely done there and consistent with Elmo's stated views but in any case, it seems that Troll no was clear. Troll's read on SpyreX at this time actually be a slight town read. Troll was trying to say that SpyreX's vote for Artem no be for what Troll considers ideal reasons and that him seems to be unwilling to accept the difference in opinion about bandwagonning that Artem be expressing does be a bit of an issue. SpyreX be following his take on what be good play to decide that Artem be likely to be scum. Troll no fully agrees with his points but Troll disagrees with people about ideal play on a somewhat regular basis so that no offends Troll particularly. What SpyreX be doing be following a lead with a good deal of effort without throwing every possible argument at Artem. Him be sticking to his theory to make a case. To Troll that be more likely town than scum behavior.

According to you, I'm scum because...I have not posted during 5 days?
What do you think I would accomplish as scum by 'stalling'?
As for the 164 post, which is a repeat of Porkens' argument, see my previous post.

And if I'm scum Artem and Ectomancer would be my buddy because they defended me? And Porkens because he voted me?

Well, Troll no be at all sure that springlullaby be scum and she has been posting so that no be it. It be the posting without contributing to the information pool. Stalling through the start of the game allows one to assess the mood of the game and then voice ones suspicions accordingly. It gives us less to compare to when we look at your actions. Your current vote on Artem be an example of how this could be beneficial for scum. It be a vote that Troll no objects to on it's own as Troll does find Artem suspicious (even for some of the reasons you give) but the fact that it comes when many others have already expressed unease with Artem's play be convenient. We no had any prior reads from you on Artem to compare it to.

As for post 164:

A quick question before posting my thoughts,

MOD:

were scum allowed to talk before the game?

Troll can certainly think of a couple reasons why this might be worth asking and if springlullaby would like to give particular interactions that she saw that be fine (if springlullaby would prefer not to Troll can accept that reluctance as well) but it would surprise Troll if there were no reactions at all that springlullaby could have given that would not compromise the information that might be gained by having the question answered. Putting off all contributions until this question be answered be troublesome. Further, Troll no cares for the the implication that you no know the answer to the question. It could easily be true but the way it be asked that strikes Troll as a large part of the motivation to make the post at all.

As for why Porkens likely be town if you be scum, it be more than just the vote him has cast on you. It be the way the two of you have approached eachother all game. Porken's first post did draw attention to you. Your first post draws attention to him. Porkens, more than most in the game has come back to you. If you both be scum this be much more than distancing would require. If you do flip scum Troll no will rule Porkens out as a partner but him will certainly be lower on the list because of what Troll has seen from both of you.

For Artem and Ectomancer, it be more than just a defense of you. It be the idea that it be OK for you to lurk. Neither one be saying that you be town. Both be giving reasons not to make a read on you yet which be noteworthy. Again, should you turn up scum Troll no will simply assume that one or both of them must be your partner but them will be looking at more closely.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[Elmo]

Elmo, bizarrely your posts are not succinct at all, they are also vague in their intent. I'd like to ask who you think is scummiest at the moment.

Apart from 175 (which I explained), which of my posts seem vague or verbose to you? And "KILL HERODOTUS PLZ K THX" combined with voting Herod seems pretty unambiguous to me. (It's him. We need to kill Herodotus post-haste. With death.)

[Herodotus]

First, Ecto, please get well. Your previous games have been inspirational to me, so I say as an admirer that I hope you have a swift and healthy recovery.

---

I agree with much of what Spring has said so far on this page.

On page 2, it's okay to vote someone for the same reason as someone else. But on page 3, it's also generally okay to vote someone for voting for the same reason as someone else. That both votes stayed for a while could be significant, though they both had reasons.

It could sometimes help the town to know whether the scum could chat pre-game, and as an attempt to look townie, I'd consider it too transparent, so I see this as a null-tell. If she considered it helpful to know, but didn't ask in the thread, her alternative was to ask the mod in a PM then report the answer in the thread, but we can all imagine how that would look... "Oh, hey, everyone, just thought you should know that the scum were(n't) allowed to talk before the game."
I do want to hear what SL had in mind (i.e. what interactions.) But also consider that some of the players may have enough experience with each other that they may only seem like they were talking pre-game.

Elmo is placing a lot of emphasis on early things. (Just an observation.)

- I think the conclusion to Adel's questionnaire thing is weak

My understanding is that Adel reads many of the other players' games to figure out what they do as town and what they do as scum, and compares that to what they're doing in this game. It takes a while, so we haven't seen any of the conclusions yet.

And the Spyrex vote is an interrogation. I kind of detect the first hints of 'refuge in complexity' in the mystery surrounding Adel's play and this warrant a

FOS

I don't see the interrogation aspect of the Spyrex vote. To the other part, yes (though my vote was for different reasons.)

I too found Ecto's play quite normal and reasonable.

I'll let Artem respond to most of what SL said about him before I comment. But it strikes me as odd that Artem is upset about a "bunk" case on him. I'd expect a townie to react differently, especially if he genuinely suspects Spyrex is scum, in which case it's part of Spyrex's job to make bunk cases. I'll have to check the section containing their back-and-forth again later.

[Herodotus]

How on earth is Adel an easy target? I'd expect that I'm the easiest target in this game.

? Explain this.

It was written in response to Elmo portraying my vote on Adel as

"Adel you are an easy target let me vote you! vote: Adel".

What you're asking about is part of something larger, and the rest (such as my actual reasons for voting Adel) is important, but here's what I mean:
I don't think Adel is an "easy target." If I were scum trying for a mislynch, Adel seems like a poor selection to target for that (assuming Adel is town.)
Adel would probably agree, judging by the bottom of this post.
The part about myself was unnecessary and irrelevant, but I meant that I'd imagine that if every player's ability to avoid being lynched when they're town could be measured, mine would be low compared to the other players here.

My point was only that Elmo was wrong about my vote for Adel.

[Vi]

springlullaby seem to be stalling rather than contributing. Troll be sure that Troll will shock no one with a Vote: springlullaby. In addition to the lack of participation we have post 164 (asking the mod for information about scum's pre-game chatting chances) which strikes Troll as designed to maker her look like she no had that information more than anything else. There no be much to work with here and Troll dislikes what Troll sees.

*shock!*
The relevant following question be: Now that s-lully has responded, be Troll satisfied with her and be Troll ready to vote elsewhere?

Vi no really sure what to make of Troll's ideas about scumpairings, but Vi dislike making pairs before anyone actually flips.

----

Elmo's theory lecture on bandwagoning kind of made my eyes glaze over

Vi: In what respect to you agree with Scumbucket against Kitten? I feel like we should probably be wagoning someone. < <

Oh, well, here comes most of the wall I was trying not to post.

Also, I'm not worried about the rainbow votecount.

I noted it as an indication about players' reluctance to pile in on somebody, which I found interesting.

It also means that I need to think carefully about my case before actually placing a vote if I'm going to convince anybody to follow me. I'm going to Unvote for now since everybody's nagging me about parking a vote on Porkens, which I don't think is really a problem.

Not voting at all isn't much better than having a throwaway vote.
But I'm not sure I agree with the bolded. Do you think the players have voted where they have because the person they

really

want to vote already has "too many" votes on them?

Herodotus 167 nails the other questions I wanted to ask Artem.

Regarding Artem's case on Herodotus...

1) A townie shouldn't be asking for a vote. If you really are town, then all you're doing is distracting attention from the scum onto yourself.

I disagree with this, because Herodotus was pressuring you into acting. Votes equal accountability, basically.

Is it scummy for me to not mention a newbie game, which I don't feel I contributed much to (and where I was town-aligned)? You got NKd on the first night because of your stellar play. I get NKd on the first night routinely simply because I'm an IC.

I didn't actually think Adel's question would net anything controversial, but I don't like this response. Rather than say you messed up, you seem to be minimizing the worth of the game. As far as responses to "control" questions go, this seems to be overreactive.

3) Piling up on somebody early in the game is a great scum tactic, because they can easily bring somebody up to L-2 or L-1 and argue their way out with "it's not dangerous", or "I'm doing it to get out of RVS". This is why early wagons generate good content. The fact that there was no such wagon means that the scum are either shy or inactive. Lurkers aside, you yourself said that you're intimidated by the cast. (me being the other person who's intimidated, but I'd argue that I was pro-wagon from the start of the game).

There are a couple of bad assumptions here; the principal one being that scum would necessarily have piled on to an early wagon to get the game started, as the dubious notion that the scum are "shy or inactive" follows from that.

Incidentally, rereading the game, I saw Herodotus 32. You know, the post where he votes with the popular wagon.

This is clearly a lackluster argument. You DID say at first that you didn't want to vote based on it, but beforehand your vote was pretty throwaway anyway and you were having a hard time picking anyone out as scum, so yeah.

Postcard from the 177/178 area:
I'm having a hard time reconciling some arguments here. So, bandwagoning early D1 is a good thing... but it's easy to catch scum because they pile onto the early wagon? And if bandwagoning is pro-Town, why hasn't Artem been doing it in any effective way? Motions, meet spirit.

the point is that voting him for bandwagoning is voting him for something he'd very likely do as town. Ditto metagaming. Perhaps you genuinely consider it anti-town, but him doing it doesn't make him more likely to be mafia.

But... if it's

known

that he does it as Town; i.e. it's a conscious decision, then doesn't that null the Town-tell?

I've always been pro-wagon as town

Like so.

On what basis did you single out meta to be the key component of my vote when I've presented reasons?

I'm not voting for you because I don't think you deserve a vote based purely on meta.

----

I did that because I wanted to see if anyone would jump in with me, or ask me for reasoning. Tajo's vote was actually the exact sort of thing I was looking for, especially the fact he explicitly agreed with me rather than simply voting; when someone acts like that, they're generally thinking along similar lines in a way that's very hard to fake as scum, for some reason. There's a decent possibility that he's buddying up to me, but I'd say it's less likely than him being genuine.

I'm not really agreeing with you here. If I wanted to jokevote (like I thought tajo was doing) I would tack on "I agree with this

[apparently irrational vote]

".

I disliked Herod's random vote on Spring, it didn't leave any avenue for interaction. If you compare it to Spyrex's vote, he's clearly looking to get a response from Vi, for example. That seems more like what a townie should be doing. Herod's vote avoids starting a wagon on anyone, it doesn't allow any kind of meaningful response, and it's based on something out-of-game, which doesn't allow for any attack on him in the future. It's a little hard to articulate, but it's basically a "stay out of the limelight" feeling that scum so often give off. If you contrast that to Ecto's attitude for example, there's a big difference.

I really can't buy this. I mean, SpyreX insulted my username; Herodotus insulted s-lullaby's sig. Neither of them are actually part of the game, and both can elicit responses (although it can be argued that SpyreX was more in the business of antagonizing me... you'd better remember who's critiquing your setups ). Furthermore, it's true Herodotus didn't jump on the wagon, but he was also the

second person to post

after the game started.

Plus not wagoning me is highly pro-Town.

Last, to say it doesn't allow for any attack on him in the future is clearly false because... well... that's what you're doing here.

Likewise with 32. I'm not seeing it.

A lot of other people seem town; I'm not sure if that's good or bad, yet

-----

I'm in the hospital. Over a week, I'm real bad. I hurt myself

I hope it's nothing of

that

nature...
In any event, if it's really serious, you should get a replacement. Mafia should be the least of your worries.

-----

So, your vote is pretty sloppy here, which I wouldn't have minded given the early stage of the game at the time, but your last comment by which you seem to justify your continued vote on me is weak also.

Voting for people whose content is mostly "rereading, will catch up" is weak? This is news.

Is that a serious point of contention? If so, I'd like you to explain why you think town would not have asked this question puclicly because I see not.

ftr, I've tried something similar as scum. It didn't go over well. Thus I don't think Porkens is necessarily on the wrong track, and I agree with Troll's comments on it in 238.

In case it's not obvious I disagree with your assessment of Porkens.

I kind of detect the first hints of 'refuge in complexity' in the mystery surrounding Adel's play and this warrant a FOS

This seems like a good way to vocalize my feelings on the subject.

What do you think I would accomplish as scum by 'stalling'?

Skipping Early Day One^TM sounds good to me. That's when precedents are set and first impressions formed, and in my experience skipping all that is quite liberating. Plus you're very likely not going to be subject of the first "serious wagon".

-----

This topic needs some Korts.

[Porkens]

Spring: The reason I asked about "trying to hard" was I couldn't find any post in which anyone actually said that, yet you put it in quotes, as if someone had. It's not a trick question.

As for you following Ecto's vote; as you say you were following his reasons but they were

bad

reasons. The "sticking to" or "keeping" terms were being missused. Sure, you don't have to always have origional reasoing, but you shouldn't follow BAD reasoning.

Troll brought up a good point;

why

did you ask the question? Pretend you had gotten a "yes" answer and tell us what that would have meant to you. Which interactions are you talking about?

By '''stalling''' you could be hoping to avoid notice altogether, let alone suspicion. If you say

nothing

, no one can hold anythign you say against you.

---

And, I'm sorry, but I can't agree with the rest of you on this one;

I'm in the hospital. Over a week, I'm real bad. I hurt myself

So you are in the hospital, hurt real bad, 10 hours after your last post, and your clear-headed, and physically capable enough to A) think "oh shit, my internet forum mafia game" and B) tell us about it? That's very hard to believe, and I think you are full of shit.

[Zorblag]

The game aside I think that Porkens didn't parse Ectomancer's post and this is important enough to make sure everyone is clear on it. Ectomancer didn't say he was hurt real bad but rather that he had been real bad. The implications are that he hurt himself for whatever reason in a way that requires hospitalization. The last thing that I think any of us want to do is make Ectomancer feel that he has to worry about this game. That he's posted here to let us know what is happening is great. If he's comfortable sharing what's happening then I for one am willing to listen and I hope others are as well.

I'm not a big fan of assigning blame in this sort of situation so I'm not going to blindly follow Ectomancer's lead here and say that the situation is due to him being bad. He's made it clear that he's trying a variety of drugs to help him through what he's going through and I think that both that's wonderful to hear and that I'm honored that he's willing to share it. If the prescription that they were trying out wasn't suitable (as it sounds was the case) then I hope that there were no lasting detrimental effects.

Anything other than support for a fellow scummer in this situation is unacceptable. I don't for an instant suspect that he would fake the sort of trauma that he's expressed simply to change the course of a game. If I had to think that way I wouldn't be here playing these games. Ectomancer knows the state he's in better than any of the rest of us. If he feels that he's up to continuing the game then I'm all for that but if he chooses to be replaced I'm not going to hold it against him at all.

Ectomancer, like I said before, do what you need to do for yourself to be healthy at this time. I don't claim to know everything you're going through now but you will be in my thoughts. If you'd like to talk about anything non-game related you're welcome to PM me. I don't have any insight but I am able to listen.

-Zorblag R`Lyeh

[springlullaby]

I'm upset by this as well and I agree with Zorblag's post fully. I too would like for Ectomancer to stay in this game if he feels up to it. Beyond the fact that it was him who had the great idea of putting this game together, I'll remark here that people being VLA is a common happening in any given game. So Ecto, please take care of yourself, and if you still wish to continue playing I think many of us would be glad for it as we genuinely appreciate your play - I know that I do.

[populartajo]

I reread and these are some things that caught my attention.

Post 19 from Porkens is either a relaxed townie or a very overconfident scum. Either way, it made me laugh.

Post 20 from Ecto is also slightly townie. Posterior posts however make me think that I really dont know if he is joking or not.

Herodotus 31. Arg.

Porkens:
Was the point of your quote block in 21, particularly your fos on Ectomancer, sincere?

This just doesnt feel right. As I said before, it feels fabricated.

32 is also weird. Its an unexpected return to random stage after a weird question in 31. (with smiley included)

Elmo's 33. Vote for Hero. Good first vote.

Artem's 36 is also interesting. A nice semirandom vote.

Adel 38. The famous questions.

Spring 42 is agressive. I like it.

Ecto 43 is also agressive but well thought. I also like it,

Porkens again gives me the feeling of a relaxed townie or a very overconfident scum. Like his last paragraph where he tells me that placing a seemingly meaningless vote s SO 2 pages ago.

Vi 53 also feels townish for the level of scumhunting analysis used there.

Adel feels very agressive, specially against me for being uncooperative. 83 against vi was just unnecessary.

populartajo (I am sad you forgot me )

You werent in the game when I made that list, Korts.

Korts concentrating against Zorblag in 92.

Vi feels townie in 101.

You unvoted. Are you suspicious of anyone?

Ecto feels townie in 102.

This is ridiculous. I thought maybe you posted early before things got going, but no, there was all type of discussion going on. You're either lurking or afraid to take a position.

Heros'106 is an interesting move. Why the vote on Adel when you said you didnt have any significant degree suspicions? Are you always that liberal with your votes??

Kort attacks Zorblag with a passion.

Adel in 133 also feels townie. Nice evaluation of the Hero case singling out Elmo and leaving spring out of the ecuation.

If so, I don't think you appreciate how time intensive it is to do what I do, or how I approach the psychological aspects of this game. There is informational utility in my approach of asking players to volunteer information. I plan on paying special attention to the games they "accidentally" left off of the lists, and the players they "forgot" to mention having played with before.

I knew you would come up with something like this.

Artem-Hero fight. Im slightly leaning to like Artem approach here.

Spyrex 174 is interesting. Would be good to look later.

Elmo's175 is solid gold. Perfect analysis of the current situation. I cant believe how much we agree.

Elmo and Spyrex have a theory discussion. Sorry, not my thing. Only thing Ill tell you: BANDWAGONS ARE GOOD AND META IS EVEN BETTER.

Elmo 190 is again solid gold. Im so glad I invited him.

Spring is actively lurking.

Mmm. Artem move in 220 could be interesting to analyse later. He unvotes Hero and votes Spyrex after Adel votes him.

Spring 233 is cool. An interesting different approach of the game.

Conclusions in my next post.

[populartajo]

Prob Town
Elmo
Porkens
Vi
Ecto

Neutral slightly town
Spyrex
Korts
Artem

Neutral slightly scum
spring
Adel
Zorblag

Prob scum
Hero


Really, the only one that hasnt given me protown vibes is Hero. There is a group that feels obvtown than the rest (prob town group) and also lotsa people feeling prob town (the fact that the elite is playing here prob is the reason) in the neutral groupings. Spring, Adel and Zorblag are in the neutral slightly scimu not because they scream scum to me. They just feel off and I havent got the obvtown feelings that I would get from players of their kind.

I would vote Hero but I am already voting him and I think he is the most optymal lynch of the day.

Lynch him, kaythxbay.

[Herodotus]

Heros'106 is an interesting move. Why the vote on Adel when you said you didnt have any significant degree suspicions? Are you always that liberal with your votes??

Not always, but frequently. I'd accuse you of also being liberal with your votes, but you might mistake my point.

When you reread to write 246, I presume (since you remarked on Vi's related 101) you noticed my response to the first time you mentioned posts 31 and 32. So how does 32 qualify as a return to random if it was placed to serve a purpose?

[Korts]

This topic needs some Korts.

On it. Will have time to post tonight.