Open 144 - Near-Vanilla - GAME OVER!

[MadCrawdad]

Good point. But you also don't want a debate on a action 6 days ago lasting 30 pages.

Why not?

[dejkha]

Good point. But you also don't want a debate on a action 6 days ago lasting 30 pages.

If you were to talk about something that long, then it's bound to branch out into something else, so I have no problem with it.

[Cephrir]

@Cephrir

What made you think that AT was starting to look like an easy D1 lynch target?

Well, it's pretty common that the guy who starts talking a lot and who several people are loudly disagreeing with ends up being the D1 lynch. And as the only one who had said anything really controversial, he was pretty much the only one anyone could consider building a case on. If he continued like that and nothing else significant came up he probably would have been lynched today IMO.

Did you think that any of those 'loudly disagreeing' with AT were making particularly compelling arguments?

At first, yes. I don't think I would have actually lynched him at that point and maybe the rest of us mostly feel the same way, but the arguments wouldn't have to be that great if they were the only ones... D1 lynches are often subpar and there comes a point after which people tend to accept anything remotely reasonable.

[Pitstop]

Lots happening already, nice to see. Though first of all hohum, you don't tell me when I should read back because you don't no my schedule .

Now, ODDin I believe it was made a good post on page 5, post 101. Good explanation, tbf.

I'm getting the vibe that hohum is a chicken with its head cut off. However, you're not jumping ship on your votes or anything, just the approach that you are taking to the game.

hohum is on the verge of earning my FoS, but I'll keep an eye on him for the next day or so and see what he does to decide whether or not he truly strikes me as scum.

I'm having a hard time putting my finger on what to make of AndyTony. I might make a case on him later to see if I notice anything particularly anti-town about his play thus far.

Pitstop, below is the post from ODDin that you liked. What makes this such a good post that you would feel the need to comment on it? Also, you obviously

know

that the post is by ODDin (as you point out the page and post number), so why say that you 'believe' the post was by ODDin, as if you're trying to recall from memory?

*sigh*

Pressuring someone is when you actually attempt to get a lynch against said someone, accuse him much more seriously than the arguments would otherwise demand etc.
When adding a vote against someone in order to create a small bandwagon isn't pressure - I am not attempting to get a lynch against this someone, and I am not even making serious arguments most of the time. It's not done to get specifically

him

drop tells - it's done to make everyone drop tells and get the discussion going. See who else joins the wagon. Things like that.
Are you attempting to suggest that pressure tactics are the only possible tactics in a game?

Another thing: I'm not making excuses, I'm answering your questions. The fact alone that you phrase your questions such that my answers sound like what can otherwise pass for excuses is a different matter. What you're doing right now is exactly said pressure tactics - you're focusing your strength on me just for the sake of focusing it on someone. I can live with that.

That being said, nobody has contributed to this game much at this point, and I probably contributed more than most, so I haven't even got what to make excuses for.

Also, you might make a case on AndyTony later to see if you notice anything anti-town about his play thus far? Why wait?

I thought it was an accurate post because I feel it's good logic that makes sense. He's apparently trying to say that these early votes from him don't mean much, but are more so to add pressure, and some people may even view them as FoSing. That's just my take on it.

I agree with Odd. AT was starting to look like an easy D1 lynch target IMO and I think Pitstop was trying to push the potential wagon there. Good catch. This could be you chainsaw defending AT but there was that little jab thrown in at him at the end. And I don't think AT is scum anyway. Definitely the most solid thing I've seen.

Unvote
Vote: Pitstop

I truly don't feel you agree with ODD, but are simply looking for an excuse to hop on the bandwagon and possibly get me lynched. My vote on AT was said to be an 'easy lynch', but this seems like much more of an easy lynch to me.

I don't like this. AndyTony is stating his opinions and actually helps the discussion move somewhere more than anyone else in the game right now.
I don't see what info he can feed the scum, exactly.

Also, what does "doing it without actually voting [...]"? First you say that him telling too much of his opinions and thinking is bad for the town, because it apparently gives the scum too much info (something I don't agree with in the first place). But then you say that if he voted, it'd be okay?

Also, he didn't really change his opinions much. He was pretty much going around the same points over and over again. So I certainly don't see how this is "opinion flip-flopping".

Ok, so I will admit the comment I made about the opinion statement was wishy-washy, but I think you're misinterpreting some of it.

I never said he was changing his opinions, I just said his opinions aren't really helping. However, like I said, this is wishy-washy because you point out here that he stuck by his opinions, and I agree with that and it's logical.

I was trying to say that we weren't accomplishing anything. We were laying our cards out on the table, but we never used them and so that's what I'm getting at. This may come across like I just think we should lynch anyone, which isn't true. But what I do feel is that we need to do at least some voting that isn't random, rather than just wasting our time posting opinions 24/7.

But the game is picking up now and so this can be semi-disregarded due to the fact that many people are voting for those who they are suspicious of.

Unvote

btw, I never unvoted my random vote back from the early stages.

[Cephrir]

I truly don't feel you agree with ODD, but are simply looking for an excuse to hop on the bandwagon and possibly get me lynched. My vote on AT was said to be an 'easy lynch', but this seems like much more of an easy lynch to me.

And this is based on what? Also, you'd probably say this about any case on you.

[The Corporation]

What kind of mafia to town numbers are we looking at here. Three mafioso would make sense wouldn't it? If someone can confirm this I have a vote to dispense.

[ODDin]

There are 3 mafia members, given that the mafia PM is free for all to see on the first page.
However, I don't see your point here. What does it matter at this point if there are two mafia members or three? It's not like we have much info on our hands, it's

way

to early to be making any sort of arguments based on the number of scum in game.

[OccamR]

Good point. But you also don't want a debate on a action 6 days ago lasting 30 pages.

Why not?

Having a long intense argument is great, but it also leads everyone overthinking and overanalyzing one point. If, like dejkha said, it branched out to different ideas and people, thats better.

[Kdub]

What kind of mafia to town numbers are we looking at here. Three mafioso would make sense wouldn't it? If someone can confirm this I have a vote to dispense.

...

Did you really not know this was an open setup? I tend to be suspicious of people who make "newbie" mistakes like this because it seems like an attempt to appear innnocent and naive.

[Zer0ph34r]

I've never played with 13 players, but I would definitely assume that there are 3, because assuming there are 2 may result in bad judgment.

[ODDin]

... or you could actually read the setup and not have to assume anything.

[Zer0ph34r]

Reading? What a joke.

[Khamisa]

Unvote

I'm not sure if I like Zer0's play, but mainly because it is bad and untypical.

The Corporation wrote:
What kind of mafia to town numbers are we looking at here. Three mafioso would make sense wouldn't it? If someone can confirm this I have a vote to dispense.


...

Did you really not know this was an open setup? I tend to be suspicious of people who make "newbie" mistakes like this because it seems like an attempt to appear innnocent and naive.

He is a 'Townsperson', so I wouldn't exactly put it behind him, except for maybe the fact that you have to go to the Open Game Queue to sign up.

[ODDin]

It doesn't matter. I would expect players participating in the game to actually read the rules in the beginning of the game. And the mafia PM clearly states that there are three mafia members.

Also, Khamisa, what exactly don't you like about Zer0's play? You say it's bad. Could you quote posts you find bad and explain what makes them bad?
And what do you think about Pitstop?

[Zer0ph34r]

ODD, I could do that for you, my very last post...

Reading? What a joke.

[Zer0ph34r]

Apparently you think the same way.

[hewitt]

lol Okay I think we've established that there are three mafia scum...

[The Corporation]

This post raised my suspicions.

I agree with Odd. AT was starting to look like an easy D1 lynch target IMO and I think Pitstop was trying to push the potential wagon there. Good catch. This could be you chainsaw defending AT but there was that little jab thrown in at him at the end. And I don't think AT is scum anyway. Definitely the most solid thing I've seen.

Unvote
Vote: Pitstop

For starters AT wasn't looking anything like a D1 lynch target IMO. Such an easy target that he had no votes sitting on him... right.

@Cephrir

What made you think that AT was starting to look like an easy D1 lynch target?

Well, it's pretty common that the guy who starts talking a lot and who several people are loudly disagreeing with ends up being the D1 lynch. And as the only one who had said anything really controversial, he was pretty much the only one anyone could consider building a case on. If he continued like that and nothing else significant came up he probably would have been lynched today IMO.

With 2.5 weeks of RL time left until a lynch it is 100% inevitable (and your responsibility as a townsperson) to make sure something more significant than that to come out - and what do you know it has... you.

I think your vote for Pitstop is more about you trying to push a wagon rather than preventing AT from being an easy lynch target - the time to take that stand is around L-2 rather than L-7.

You did the maths and thought: dejkha + ODDin + yourself + sumbuddy 1 + scumbuddy 2 + 2 more townies = lynch. Those two townies you had yourself down for were probably MadCrawdad who has shown a bit of interest in Pitstop already and potentially AndyTony. I do realise the flaws with my maths is that some of those people could be the same (ODDin = scumbuddy wouldn't surprise me at all) - but roping in another townie whose main concern was not getting lynched themselves wouldn't be too hard IMO.

You have well and truly taken over the wagon though trying to poo poo the notion that this is a bandwagon at all:

I truly don't feel you agree with ODD, but are simply looking for an excuse to hop on the bandwagon and possibly get me lynched. My vote on AT was said to be an 'easy lynch', but this seems like much more of an easy lynch to me.

And this is based on what? Also, you'd probably say this about any case on you.

Finally the only reason for statements like this so far out from the deadline seems all about conditioning the town resign itself to making a subpar vote on Day 1.

D1 lynches are often subpar and there comes a point after which people tend to accept anything remotely reasonable.

A good town will be able to make a catch on Day 1, no doubts about it and I think we have...

unvote, vote: Cephrir.

[The Corporation]

What kind of mafia to town numbers are we looking at here. Three mafioso would make sense wouldn't it? If someone can confirm this I have a vote to dispense.

...

Did you really not know this was an open setup? I tend to be suspicious of people who make "newbie" mistakes like this because it seems like an attempt to appear innnocent and naive.

It was a poorly thought out attempt to try and see if I could get an enthusiastic "Yes, there are three mafia." response from someone who I would assume were buttering me up to jump on their Pitstop push.

It didn't go like that, it made me look like an amateur - which I am trying different tacts and tricks all the time.

[Cephrir]

Holy tunnelvision, Batman.

This post raised my suspicions.

I agree with Odd. AT was starting to look like an easy D1 lynch target IMO and I think Pitstop was trying to push the potential wagon there. Good catch. This could be you chainsaw defending AT but there was that little jab thrown in at him at the end. And I don't think AT is scum anyway. Definitely the most solid thing I've seen.

Unvote
Vote: Pitstop

For starters AT wasn't looking anything like a D1 lynch target IMO. Such an easy target that he had no votes sitting on him... right.

That's your opinion. I don't agree. Why does it matter?

@Cephrir

What made you think that AT was starting to look like an easy D1 lynch target?

Well, it's pretty common that the guy who starts talking a lot and who several people are loudly disagreeing with ends up being the D1 lynch. And as the only one who had said anything really controversial, he was pretty much the only one anyone could consider building a case on. If he continued like that and nothing else significant came up he probably would have been lynched today IMO.

With 2.5 weeks of RL time left until a lynch it is 100% inevitable (and your responsibility as a townsperson) to make sure something more significant than that to come out - and what do you know it has... you.

I think your vote for Pitstop is more about you trying to push a wagon rather than preventing AT from being an easy lynch target - the time to take that stand is around L-2 rather than L-7.

One person can't necessarily stop a bandwagon once it gets rolling, and doing so when you don't know the target's alignment for certain can be stupid. And here we see you getting in the mindset that I'm scum and for the rest of this post are asking yourself "Why would scum do this?" instead of "Is this scummy?"

I'm not preventing AT from being anything, I was just pointing out that I thought Pitstop was trying to turn it into a wagon. D1 bandwagons have a tendency to go through no matter what because people don't care enough, so it's best that it was pointed out now rather than when it might be too late. Also, what about my post makes you think its purpose is "to push a wagon" (which by the way isn't necessarily scummy) and not legitimate suspicion? Oh right, it's the part where you've already decided to label me as scum. You knew before you started writing this post that you were going to vote me at the end of it and didn't stop to consider that your logic isn't voteworthy.

You did the maths and thought: dejkha + ODDin + yourself + sumbuddy 1 + scumbuddy 2 + 2 more townies = lynch. Those two townies you had yourself down for were probably MadCrawdad who has shown a bit of interest in Pitstop already and potentially AndyTony. I do realise the flaws with my maths is that some of those people could be the same (ODDin = scumbuddy wouldn't surprise me at all) - but roping in another townie whose main concern was not getting lynched themselves wouldn't be too hard IMO.

You've never played as scum before have you? That's not how it works. Also, again, you're assuming I'm scum. And, apparently, that all scum are always on all townie wagons, and that Pitstop is town.

You have well and truly taken over the wagon though trying to poo poo the notion that this is a bandwagon at all:

I truly don't feel you agree with ODD, but are simply looking for an excuse to hop on the bandwagon and possibly get me lynched. My vote on AT was said to be an 'easy lynch', but this seems like much more of an easy lynch to me.

And this is based on what? Also, you'd probably say this about any case on you.

Feel free to show me what your comment and my post have in common because I don't see "this is not a bandwagon" in there. Incidentally, it isn't, given that it's currently two votes big, but I didn't say that.

Finally the only reason for statements like this so far out from the deadline seems all about conditioning the town resign itself to making a subpar vote on Day 1.

D1 lynches are often subpar and there comes a point after which people tend to accept anything remotely reasonable.

Excuse me for speaking the truth.

P.S. You're supposed to vote for people based on whether they're scummy, not whether they're the person you decided to quote lots of times and make vaguely suspicious and mostly irrelevant statements about.

[The Corporation]

Dude, quickly following up ODDin with:

I agree with Odd. AT was starting to look like an easy D1 lynch target IMO and I think Pitstop was trying to push the potential wagon there. Good catch. This could be you chainsaw defending AT but there was that little jab thrown in at him at the end. And I don't think AT is scum anyway. Definitely the most solid thing I've seen.

Unvote
Vote: Pitstop

is twenty times closer to "pushing a potential wagon" than anything Pitstop did. The difference between not even voting for someone and being the third man in for example. If you are going to ping Pitstop for "pushing a potential wagon" you should have no problems with me doing the same to you.

Also the tone of your response is one more of discrediting me to the town rather than defending yourself against very valid questioning. Painting me as someone as a newbie with tunnel vision works two ways with you as me probing you further will strengthen your claim and it also gives you another half-target to pull out of the draw should you want one.

And yes I have played scum before and don't really go around pushing wagons I can't get over the line. If you go around doing that too much you tend to out yourself very quickly.

[AndyTony]

@Ceph

I might have misread - - but did you vote Pitstop for having the same opinion of me as you had? And you only changed it because things seemed to turn his way?

It seems hypocritical and opportunistic - but it's late - - if I misread, someone correct me if I'm wrong

[MadCrawdad]

@Cephrir

@Cephrir

What made you think that AT was starting to look like an easy D1 lynch target?

Well, it's pretty common that the guy who starts talking a lot and who several people are loudly disagreeing with ends up being the D1 lynch. And as the only one who had said anything really controversial, he was pretty much the only one anyone could consider building a case on. If he continued like that and nothing else significant came up he probably would have been lynched today IMO.

Did you think that any of those 'loudly disagreeing' with AT were making particularly compelling arguments?

At first, yes. I don't think I would have actually lynched him at that point and maybe the rest of us mostly feel the same way, but the arguments wouldn't have to be that great if they were the only ones... D1 lynches are often subpar and there comes a point after which people tend to accept anything remotely reasonable.

Cephrir, who was making particularly compelling arguments that you feel could have led to AT being an easy D1 lynch?

This post is to remind me to mention something in a few days and/or a lot of pages.

Also, are we there, yet?

[hewitt]

I also don't think AT was looking to be an easy D1 lynch. Those who were "loudly disagreeing" were not making compelling arguments at all, they were totally superficial and non-important.

[Cephrir]

Dude, quickly following up ODDin with:

I agree with Odd. AT was starting to look like an easy D1 lynch target IMO and I think Pitstop was trying to push the potential wagon there. Good catch. This could be you chainsaw defending AT but there was that little jab thrown in at him at the end. And I don't think AT is scum anyway. Definitely the most solid thing I've seen.

Unvote
Vote: Pitstop

is twenty times closer to "pushing a potential wagon" than anything Pitstop did. The difference between not even voting for someone and being the third man in for example. If you are going to ping Pitstop for "pushing a potential wagon" you should have no problems with me doing the same to you.

Voting is visible. Pushing a wagon and being on it are not the same thing, Pitstop was supporting the wagon idea without actually putting anything concrete on it that could be traced back to him. Last sentence makes zero sense. Also, why the hell is everyone all over me about this vote and not ODDin?

Also the tone of your response is one more of discrediting me to the town rather than defending yourself against very valid questioning.

Very valid questioning? You didn't even ask me any questions! That was an outright attack, how do you expect me to respond? Would you prefer I not try to disprove your attack? Oh right you would, because you want to lynch me.

Painting me as someone as a newbie with tunnel vision works two ways with you as me probing you further will strengthen your claim and it also gives you another half-target to pull out of the draw should you want one.

I am not painting anything. You

are

a newbie with tunnelvision. And yet again with the Cephrir-is-scum-so-here's-why crap.

And yes I have played scum before and don't really go around pushing wagons I can't get over the line. If you go around doing that too much you tend to out yourself very quickly.

If I'm scum there, I am definitely not thinking what you say I must be. Remotely decent scum are thinking about far more than who they can get lynched, it's not even a priority. If you've played scum you've been doing a godawful job of it.

@Ceph

I might have misread - - but did you vote Pitstop for having the same opinion of me as you had? And you only changed it because things seemed to turn his way?

It seems hypocritical and opportunistic - but it's late - - if I misread, someone correct me if I'm wrong

No. I have not thought at any point in this game that you are scum, maybe it appears that I did but that's not the case.

Cephrir, who was making particularly compelling arguments that you feel could have led to AT being an easy D1 lynch?

IMO, no one. I guess I wasn't giving everyone else enough credit and assumed everyone was a sheep. At the other site where I play, everyone is a sheep, so y'know. Carries over.

Also, are we there, yet?

I meant game days.

I also don't think AT was looking to be an easy D1 lynch. Those who were "loudly disagreeing" were not making compelling arguments at all, they were totally superficial and non-important.

You may say so now, but you might not have if there was an AT wagon right now. And yes they were superficial and terrible, but again I've seen people get lynched over ridiculously small things.