Newbie 785 - Game Over

[GadgetArcrep]

Toledo's leave really took a kick to activity here, it seems.

I guess we can only wait till the replacement arrives.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Official Vote Count

qwints - 1 (falkomagno)

PhilyEc - 1 (qwints)
Cornellius Alfredo - 1 (Shotty to the Body)

Not Voting - 6 (Cyren, GadgetArcrep, Giskard, Papa Zito, PhilyEc, The Corporation)

5 to Lynch.

Deadline

is the end of Saturday, May 30th (Eastern, GMT - 4).

[PhilyEc]

Okay how bout we all just name our top three suspects, seems the best thing to do for now.
As for me I'm very suspicious of;
1.Qwints
2.GadgetArcrep
3.Shotty to the Body (only because hes not pushing for a Cornellius lynch after voting for him for lurking)

[GadgetArcrep]

Yep, thread might of died... Might be advisable for

prods be given out

I wouldnt say that not pushing for a lynch after voting is scum like, I would say he has backed off his suspicions, the scum would more or less force people to think of that person with suspicion with trickery or whatnot.

Heck, my suspicions still remain on Phily and Qwints, though, however phily wouldnt make himself such an obvious target if he was one, he also seems to know what he is doing, he is trustable, for the time being.

Qwints, just not active enough to be a team member. and its under the radar behavior, he might just be the scum.

[PhilyEc]

I wouldnt say that not pushing for a lynch after voting is scum like, I would say he has backed off his suspicions, the scum would more or less force people to think of that person with suspicion with trickery or whatnot.

Maybe he just plays different from me but whenever I'm playing and I suspect someone enough to cast a vote on them, I make damn well sure that vote is appropriately placed by not backing off the person but instead forcing them to be more active and answer any questions where theres been indiscrepencies [so mispelt]. I find it looks scummy to put on a vote and then drop a case as if thats all thats needed to show town this person is scum.

As for the Qwints thing, looks like no ones active enough now, perhaps scum are lying low since the majority of people are...

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Cyren replaces Toledo.

[The Corporation]

Still alive and kicking. Have a post in the works after a reread which hopefully will stir up some discussion.

[Cyren]

Hi guys, I should post something in a few hours or later tonight it shouldn't take too long to catch up.

[PhilyEc]

Welcome Cyren, lookin forward to yours and Corps posts.

[falkomagno]

well, it seems like we are stuck...the person with most votes has 1 grwat votes. I think tha scum is doing well since we don't have someone to attack...

[Cyren]

Okay, I've officially read through all the pages and am working on a post today/tonight/now-ish. I have to do some stuff with my husband tonight with his car so it may not be posted until tomorrow. sorry about that.

[PhilyEc]

Okay, I've officially read through all the pages and am working on a post today/tonight/now-ish. I have to do some stuff with my husband tonight with his car so it may not be posted until tomorrow. sorry about that.

Got any suspects?

[GadgetArcrep]

Welcome to the game, Cy, I was just about to pull out the defibulator, too, looks like this thread restarted itself, thank goodness.

as for being stuck, I can agree to that. no one really is showing any signs of scum behavior, except for the possibility of a lurking qwints. and he didnt really contribute much when he piped up "explaining himself".

We still have over 10 days at least, so we can either aim for someone, fire, and hope its right, or wait out the time. either way is just as bad, as both have equal chances of success, 2/9.

Worse if we dont lynch at all.

[qwints]

I haven't seen much to respond to in the thread. Are there any specific points I should respond to?

[Cyren]

First of all, sorry this is a bit long but its catching up on seven pages. Second I'm suspicious of everyone. Third, hopefully this will help get discussion going. Last, I'm really tired so forgive punctuation and spelling please.

Cornellius Alfredo:

Im waiting for the random votes to do their thing, and figured adding another one to the long list above wouldn't acheive much.

Why did you think adding another vote randomly wouldn't help?

that is all I can say here since he hasn't posted but a few times in the game, hopefully he'll post more and not lurk too much.

Qwints:

Ok, my vote is serious now.

When I first read this I thought you were being sarcastic to get Falko to post more. Could you point out when you're being sarcastic/joking? I've seen others do it.

I stated that it was a real vote only after falkomango made a post saying implying he wasn't going to participate until after the random voting phase was over. Wait and see approaches are scummy. I've got no problem with criticisms of RVS, but you don't get to say "I'm going to sit out of the game until we find actual suspects." That's basically announcing your intention to actively lurk and it made me say that my vote was now serious.

I got the same impression from Falko that he intended to do nothing until we actually suspected someone. The "advise me when RVS is over" does sound like he won't even be paying attention.

Note that he explains falko's post for him. He's giving an excuse for falko's scummy sounding post instead of letting falko do so. That's scummy for two possible reasons:
1) Buddying - he's defending a player he knows is town to ingratiate himself
2) Helping - he's telling his scum buddy how to defend himself.

Furthermore, besides these two possible scummy motivations,

defending players in htat manner is anti-town. One of the best ways to figure out players is to examine how they explain themselves when pressured. Providing a response for someone else robs the town of information.

I support this.

Qwints then vanishes for a while due to finals comes back asking what was asked of him and Phily disregards it saying "they probably don't care anymore"

Shame on everyone for not bringing it back up and letting it drop. A special SHAME ON YOU to Phily and Gadget for not restating why they're suspicious of Qwints but still stating that he is your main suspicion. At the very least you could have gotten an attitude and told him to re-read the thread not just dismiss it so he won't even try to defend himself.

A special SHAME ON qwints for seemingly not re-reading the thread or reading it at all to begin with.

I was leaning more towards pro-town till he vanished.

Phily:

Because the action doesnt deserve a vote, let alone a lynch. You ain't being reasonable here and you could possibly be scum. I am rather contradicting someone I think to be scum rather than randomly defending a player (since thats no help towards finding scum)

somewhat disagree with you, I think it did deserve a vote even if it was to pressure him to continue to participate in RVS, qwints was the only one voting Falko at this time so there wasn't really a reason to worry about a Lynch yet. Had it gone to L-2 or L-1 I would say Falko didn't deserve it.

Post1=

Phily defending someone who is being persecuted for not doing a random vote.

Post2= Phily asking more people to participate.

Because the action doesnt deserve a vote, let alone a lynch. You ain't being reasonable here and you could possibly be scum.

I am rather contradicting someone I think to be scum rather than randomly defending a player

(since thats no help towards finding scum)

Umm.... So which is it?

I defend those I feel are in the right and go down on those in the wrong. Try meta-ing me if you're bothered to but this is my gamestyle, fight the power~

So you feel Falko is in the right for not wanting to RVS and Qwints was in the wrong for his opinion that that was scummy? Is that what you meant here?

If this weren't a newbie game I'd be facepalming so much right now... Im making him look like scum by defending him against someone trying to make him look like scum? Please...

IF anything that should make you (phily) look like scum, the chainsaw defense I think its called but that quote just makes my head hurt.

Post 67 all together - you get aggressive. simply getting mad and saying, "this is how I play" to newbs like us doesn't work. I require something more substantial in THIS game. Sorry if that makes you want to facepalm too. /shrug

How close am I to being lynched btw? I've suddenly been jumped on by about three people.

I think this proves your defense isn't working :/

Thus I'm kinda apprehensive of this turning into a witchhunt on Phily (has happened before for some pretty lame reasons ¬¬)

More proof that maybe you should think about your playstyle at least with newbs? We seem to think a lot differently.

I am merely answering why people are wondering why I reacted to strangely to the slight chance I'll get lynched, but being questioned by four people is a big tell into what could happen. (in my mind those 4 are all possible votes at any time)

Fair enough, but most ICs and SEs (that I've seen) don't usually react so strongly to a few FoS and one vote.

No but really, I did these things to avoid a mislynch. I think scum have hijacked my case and though I've come out with logical explanations and answered people I'm being told I'm scummy for actually doing this.

I don't think saying "I do this everywhere" (which would mean even when you're scum) "Don't mislynch me I'm town" and getting upset at people are logical explanations.

/sigh From what I've read people who act like this are usually town who get lynched for acting this way. For now I'm neutral because of this but in general your actions are more emotional based than logical. In short you haven't done anything to push me off the fence to either side yet.

Falko:

yeah....just advice me when the RVS stops, and the serious voting start...

Why did you want to quit RVS after already participating?

But I didn't stop my activity here.

And when I was talking about to put some pressure, I just wanted to see you reaction...so, according with your behaviour, I think that those attacks that you've done, and that lack of arguments defending it it's enough to gain my vote vote qwints

This vote feels a little OMGUSy, and the "I did that to see what you would do" ? I hope you don't plan on using that argument a lot, eventually that will become unbelievable to me.

It's true that I was involved in the RVS, when I vote for The Corporation. Then, qwert vote for me because an unclear reason about OMGUS. So, I ask for a call when the serious vote stage starts, so, we can differentiate true arguments and fake or joke arguments.

The serious votes can't start until someone does something scummy and real points are brought up because the town have no information D1 only mafia have information. Are you asking for a "call when serious votes start" because you can't tell on your own?

I was not saying that I would planning to sitting out of the game. I was talking about the time when REAL acusations..founded and tangible reasons to accuse somebody were presented. And, in fact, my post activity didn't stop, as you can easily noticed

How do you propose we find "tangible reasons to accuse somebody" when Mafia are the only ones who know who is who?

But, what is the comunity conclusion about the lack of activity of Cornellius?

Cornelllius has just posted once, in the first page.

That makes me think that, he advice the mod his intention of lurking, otherwise, why mod hasn't taken correctives about it?. If you enter to a Mafia game, and say that you'll can not post anything...what's the point? why you joined in first place?

I don't like how you worded this first asking for the groups conclusion instead of just posting your thoughts and convictions. I'm sure you're just hesitant, but asking for the groups decision or opinions first makes it seem like you're just "going along with the rest" which sounds a little scummy to me. In this particular post/scenario I think its harmless; however, if we were trying to Lynch CA I'd find it bad.

Also Neutral right now on Falko but hopefully the answers to my question will get some more discussion going.

The Corporation:

There is something inconsistent about PhilyEc's stance here... In post 28 he defends lurking and lack of activity at this point in the game...

Qwints is number one on my list at the moment, hes voting for poor reason so far. Vote Qwints

Players dont avoid RVS cause they dont want to reveal scummy intentions, they avoid RVS cause though its dumb, they also find it irritating.

But then in post 35, after all we know is that 88 is a neo-nazi symbol he says

Also [bumpbumpbump] more activity plz, I wanna find scum.

It seems a little odd that you would go so far as to beg for discussion, while excusing falkomango's participation in it on his behalf. Would you like to clarify?

While I disagree that Phily was being inconsistent here I do think you are genuinely trying to create discussion and scum hunt.

The debate itself doesn't really help given we are discussing things in real life we have no idea about. What is of note is the reaction of others to the lurking accusation against him - be it defending, pushing harder, explaining further. If we flip Cornellius his scumbuddy may have subtly noted themselves, it could also give us some leads in reverse.

First scummy thing I've seen you do. Suggesting to lynch Cornellius for not posting? Ask him to be replaced. Possibly lynching a townie for not posting vs possibly lynching a townie who appears scum... Yes both suck, but at THIS point in THIS case lynching CA (if he turned up town) would serve little purpose other than making you look really really bad. You don't vote though and note how the CA problem is creating debate and discusion so I don't THINK you meant this; however, you could just be clever scum. o.0

Pro-town to me so far


Shotty to the Body:

When Phily asked you why you speculated him being scum, you said,

Seems to be the hot topic at the moment

Not a good reason. This shows you are just going off what others are saying/thinking without any or much of a real self opinion.

Cornellius is either lurking or flaking, if he is lurking that seems scummy to me since we are having actual debate now and discussion helps town and hurts mafia, so there's no reason for town to lurk.

You mention Cornellius before this quote and vote him shortly after, why such a focus on just him?

I think we're focusing too much on a single player at this point, honestly Phily strikes me as an honest, albi aggressive townie. I would really like to hear some posts from Cornellius, don't think we should let a lurker skate by with no questioning or if he's being replaced it would be good to know. In any case, Vote Cornellius

Ironic that you just switch focus to another player, but the reason seems legit pro-town for now.

You can't just ignore a single person for a whole day because they refuse to put a post in

DId you mean an RL day or a mafia day? As long as they're posting osmething with substance once every other RL day I'm okay. If they post nothing for mutliple RL days but enough to stay in the game with no substance, scum hunting, or information, I'd get highly suspicious.

Neutral, on the fence

GadgetArcrep:

All we are left with is a WIFOM Situation, taking your warnings and backing off will leave us with keeping a genuine townie (Hopefully a good PowerRole, too, like doctor) Or a very good scum. Either way, it still wouldnt protect you from night kill if you were targeted.

This didn't make sense to me, if he is a PR or a good scum won't protect him from being NKed? If he is scum he won't be NKed and suggesting to hope keeping alive a PR? If you think Phily is a PR you should keep that to yourself if you're town otherwise sounds like your signaling your mafia partner.

Also WIFOM is scummy BECAUSE it confuses you, so I hope by saying, "In the end, It just confuses me, and just makes me stay aimed at qwints." you don't mean that the WIFOM makes Phily look town. We have 2 scum to find, not one.

I have my theories, but really, I dont probe, I watch reactions, and if that means seeing what one says and anylising myself, I will.

Not probing doesn't help the town gain more information or you for that matter and I would assume you would theorize and analyze for a while before going an a small amount of information so you're not letting us know your real thoughts. Thats technically not scum hunting and just over all not very pro-town. :/

Leaning towards scum here

Giskard:

I have to agree with Phily here. Seems like Toledo is posting just to post. Seems like he might be trying to stay active enough to not appear scummy and yet not say anything incriminating in the process.

Quote above is from pg 6, I don't agree with this. Phily didn't suggest that Toledo was being scummy just that his post wasn't interesting to him. You seem to jump to a conclusion here and put words into Phily's mouth which might have incriminated Phily instead of you later on if Toledo had been lynched because of this.

Giskard doesn't really offer much other information really, if we had a newb, mafia, not entirely lurker, person in the game I'd bet Giskard and/or Shotty currently.

Some things Toledo said that I'll comment on...

What? So if someone posts alot, they have a less chance of being scum?

In my opinion no, but they usually look less scummy

I highly disapprove of this. I'm pretty sure that voting for someone who isn't posting (lurking/flaking or not) is a bad move. You can't really lynch someone for not posting. In the case where he can't or is too busy to post, it's like prosecuting a criminal when the accused or his attorney is not there.

I however approve. I don't feel like SHotty was trying to lynch CA just pressure him to post, shotty suggests replacement as well (more of a reason I don't think he was trying to Lynch)


So

vote gadget

for being my main suspect and most anti-town.

[The Corporation]

Sorry to see toldeo shoot off. Welcome Cyren.

Interesting to read your thoughts on the game so far. Agreed with large parts of it, particularly on the Phily read which has been a bone of contention so far.

As for the post that you labeled as somewhat scummy. Just to give that context, the reasoning behind posting that was more 'should during the course of the game we flip Cornelius as scum then this would be something to look at', rather than 'Lets lynch him and try and find something from that'. I would've said 'If I'm not around take a look at...' but words like that from people who aren't L-1 sound kind of tried hard scum to me.

Working on a vote post now...

[PhilyEc]

Phily:

Because the action doesnt deserve a vote, let alone a lynch. You ain't being reasonable here and you could possibly be scum. I am rather contradicting someone I think to be scum rather than randomly defending a player (since thats no help towards finding scum)

somewhat disagree with you, I think it did deserve a vote even if it was to pressure him to continue to participate in RVS, qwints was the only one voting Falko at this time so there wasn't really a reason to worry about a Lynch yet. Had it gone to L-2 or L-1 I would say Falko didn't deserve it.

I think theres only random votes and votes on true scum to be made in a game. Putting a vote on someone isnt pressure in my eyes unless it pops them into L-1. You can unvote when you arent sure someones scum anymore. Votes to apply 'pressure' is BS when its something like L-5.

Post1=

Phily defending someone who is being persecuted for not doing a random vote.

Post2= Phily asking more people to participate.

Because the action doesnt deserve a vote, let alone a lynch. You ain't being reasonable here and you could possibly be scum.

I am rather contradicting someone I think to be scum rather than randomly defending a player

(since thats no help towards finding scum)

Umm.... So which is it?

Those two meant the same thing to me O_o I contradicted scum I felt was taking advantage of a genuine slip. Someone doesnt need to partake in RVS if they dont want to, at that point I thought Falko hadn't random voted and didnt want to though. I think later this was cleared up for me.

I defend those I feel are in the right and go down on those in the wrong. Try meta-ing me if you're bothered to but this is my gamestyle, fight the power~

So you feel Falko is in the right for not wanting to RVS and Qwints was in the wrong for his opinion that that was scummy? Is that what you meant here?

I felt Falko was being persecuted for not wanting to make a random vote. Voting someone seriously for that is just plain wrong. Turns out I misunderstood the situation though as later it was made clear he had already random voted but wanted to get into the real thing there and then, willing to be woken up when we were done. (Perhaps he thought RVS was dragging out too long?)

If this weren't a newbie game I'd be facepalming so much right now... Im making him look like scum by defending him against someone trying to make him look like scum? Please...

IF anything that should make you (phily) look like scum, the chainsaw defense I think its called but that quote just makes my head hurt.

It made more sense at the time, but yes I shouldnt defend him, I had misunderstood the situation. (Considering if Im going to have to repeat this anymore times)

How close am I to being lynched btw? I've suddenly been jumped on by about three people.

I think this proves your defense isn't working :/

Okay?

Thus I'm kinda apprehensive of this turning into a witchhunt on Phily (has happened before for some pretty lame reasons ¬¬)

More proof that maybe you should think about your playstyle at least with newbs? We seem to think a lot differently.

Again okay? Are you trying to make a case here now or just being snidey? o-o My playstyle still needs improvement since I always want to get involved in things, strangely enough I do the opposite as scum. I think this is why I turned to meta when people didnt like how I 'defended' Falko.

I am merely answering why people are wondering why I reacted to strangely to the slight chance I'll get lynched, but being questioned by four people is a big tell into what could happen. (in my mind those 4 are all possible votes at any time)

Fair enough, but most ICs and SEs (that I've seen) don't usually react so strongly to a few FoS and one vote.

I'm not that used to having to defend myself when I get town roles to be honest. I still need to get better at that, but I get quite paranoid over the roles of those questioning me. The interogators could be opportunistic scum, town with poor scumdars or logical town merely ironing things out. Makes me react as how you saw.

/sigh From what I've read people who act like this are usually town who get lynched for acting this way. For now I'm neutral because of this but in general your actions are more emotional based than logical. In short you haven't done anything to push me off the fence to either side yet.

Greek men thrive on emotion <3

[The Corporation]

OK here it goes.

Vote: Shotty The Body

.

I did a reread for each person with the mindset of 'Is this person speaking like a true townie?' Now, when reading through on Shotty I found there was a lot of pro-town posts. But very little in way of substance that could be disproved or that actually probes a potential suspect. Most of them seemed to be comments a pro-town supporter would be making reading the thread without actually doing the lifting.

For example...

EBWOP
Nvm, I miscounted.

Either way let's not bandwagon anyone just yet.

If Giskard is voting for him unless I miss my guess he's at L-1 for no reason, some of you should unvote. I don't think there's anywhere near enough evidence to put anyone at L-1 at this point. =\

If we lynch now we'll have learned almost nothing from D1.

Cornellius is either lurking or flaking, if he is lurking that seems scummy to me since we are having actual debate now and

discussion helps town and hurts mafia, so there's no reason for town to lurk.

I think we're focusing too much on a single player at this point,

honestly Phily strikes me as an honest, albi aggressive townie. I would really like to hear some posts from Cornellius,

don't think we should let a lurker skate by with no questioning or if he's being replaced it would be good to know.

In any case,

Vote Cornellius

See the jist... 'Go Team Town!' etc?

When Shotty has ventured out to make a play at someone it was a prety tame affair too...

Assuming Phily is scum (not saying for sure he is, just speculating) then I would have to presume one of the people not posting as much to be his scum friend. I think Gadget makes a good point in 58 as well to that end.

And why are you assuming I'm scum? Because I don't agree with qwints? Who does agree with him?

The point of the parentheses was to say I was just speculating if you were, not actually saying you were.

Okay so why are you

speculating

that I'm scum?

Seems to be the hot topic at the moment. As for being paranoid about being lynched, seems like a null-tell. Though I guess overreacting could be perceived as scummy?

Or going after people who are due to be replaced and when they are backing off saying...

Shrug, now that he's here we can judge him by his posts like everyone else. I find it really odd Qwints just dropped off the map about the time Phily started edging that way more heavily in his posts. I don't really know about Falko, the sudden lack of activity just throws opinions off right now, though it'll make voting easier in the later days.

I really challange the town to take a read through Shotty's 10+ posts in the thread and ask 'Are these really helping us lynch scum?'. I'd be intrested on other thoughts because it is possible I'm reading too much into this and it could be his style. To that end I'd like to hear from Shotty.

[Shotty to the Body]

Sorry for the inactivity folks, I'll be rereading this whole page and posting some responses tomorrow, only had time to skim it tonight. Welcome Cyren, thanks for the PBPA, I'll be looking at that more carefully and trying to assuage your doubts since I'm on the fence!

[Shotty to the Body]

BTW Good to see life back in the thread AMEN.

[PhilyEc]

Sorry for the inactivity folks, I'll be rereading this whole page and posting some responses tomorrow, only had time to skim it tonight. Welcome Cyren, thanks for the PBPA, I'll be looking at that more carefully and trying to assuage your doubts since I'm on the fence!

On the fence? Dramatic much ._.

[GadgetArcrep]

One day of broken internet can really annoy you. All I really read was the fact that I was voted for.

During the time of posting from cyrus' quote (I.e. the time I posted the WIFOM situation I was looking at, I was pondering weather or not to follow the lead of Phily Being scum, It had quite a fair chance of error, and i decided to not move my vote in the direction of the bandwagon in the end.

Besides, I also never said that phily was town, I still have my residual suspicions of him, and there is still a chance I may vote for him.

(out of game, I just had de ja vu, I need to work on being able to recall those visions before they actually happen, it would give an edge for me, lol. )

[GadgetArcrep]

On the fence? Dramatic much ._.

Analysis can produce inconsistant results, too, it seems.

[Vel-Rahn Koon]

Replacing Cornellius for failing to respond to a prod.

Papa Zito replaces Cornellius.

[Papa Zito]

/confirming replacement

Hello all. I'm doing a couple of reads through the thread to get my bearings. Expect something tonight or early tomorrow.

Also, I see I have a vote out so

unvote

for now