Mini 792 - Tofu Mafia. Game over!

[Adel]

try harder kid. a) what makes you think that he didn't? b) why ask that question instead of noting that there are at least two players making a smaller contribution than me while his vote remains upon me for "not contributing" and c) if you honestly feel like I am evading questions I gave you a very good opening to restate those questions you want answers to, yet you ask a highly trivial question.

[Herodotus]

@Porkens 107: You said you were waiting for Adel's explanations. Seeing as they haven't come, what is your opinion of Adel at the moment?

Sounds like you want a specific answer, not a candid one.
Also, this is a bit early.

Herod and Adel:

It was an obviously loaded question. I didn't give anything away (especially not to Herod). "Not pro-town?" I just shake my head at that statement.

Yes, I knew the question was a trap, but I think it would theoretically have been better to say this after I answered. It was certainly possible I'd give an answer that would lead to a scumtell. But that would be in your interests whether you're scum or town, so it doesn't mean much to me ATM. Only if we were scum together would it be in your best interests for me to be warned, but I know that's not the case, and if we had been, I don't think you'd warn me so blatantly.

I'm generating game-relevant information, she offered a couple of opinions on page 2. It stands out to me that she had a rapid random wagon on her on page 1 that dissolved so quickly.... and then you "didn't notice" that she was lurking worse than elmo.

Now you're saying something that's provably not true. They both had one post. Elmo's contained only a vote while spring's contained a handful of points plus a vote.
And by the way, why were you accusing Elmo of lurking if you thought Spring was "lurking worse"?

Vote: Adel

You may be planning to contribute a lot soon, but so far you have not.

You're "aware of the search function" but stated that the reason you insisted on everyone posting their own games was that you would "have to do all of the work myself" otherwise.

It's about 20 seconds of work per player, that way. Not much more than finding their list within the thread.

it takes less time to check the activity of other players than it does to build a database of their previous games which are current enough to base a meta read upon.

unvote, vote: Herodotus

most likely partner: springlullby
second most likely partner: Porkens

I'm not saying you haven't devoted time to this game. I'm pretty confident that you have. But you've stated very few opinions on the things that were going on while you were arguing with people over what I see as an irrelevant issue. Also, my vote on you was partly based on the contradiction I mentioned in that post.

I placed a section in bold. Does that section contain the contradiction you just referenced?
If so, I don't think you appreciate how time intensive it is to do what I do, or how I approach the psychological aspects of this game. There is informational utility in my approach of asking players to volunteer information. I plan on paying special attention to the games they "accidentally" left off of the lists, and the players they "forgot" to mention having played with before.

I have changed the bolding. Now, the part in bold is the contradiction, while the part in italics is the reason I see it as a contradiction.
As far as omissions are concerned, I'd expect they'd be more likely inadvertent. On a related note, is it acceptable to you that I didn't include my marathon games? I think others didn't include them either.
Don't misunderstand. I have a lot of respect for your approach to the game and the effort you put in. But when I say that you have not yet contributed, what I mean is that until your case on me, you had very few comments on the issues other players were discussing. The following is all I can see from reading you in isolation:

either that, or it is page 1 chainsaw defense.

says the person that unvoted SpyreX .

Not true, especially early in a day 1. There are numerous non-scummy reasons to place a vote without explicit reasoning.

did anyone else notice that he made a post on the site recently, just not in this game?

Who thinks he is lurking?

I see these as being pretty minimal in terms of expression of opinions and ideas. Everything else you'd said up to that point was about your questions and arguing with people whose answers were incomplete or dismissive. If they lead to something useful, that will be great. But you've skipped over the actual game that's been taking place in the meantime.

[Herodotus]

Crossage means I need to make another post.

try harder kid. a) what makes you think that he didn't? b) why ask that question instead of noting that there are at least two players making a smaller contribution than me while his vote remains upon me for "not contributing" and c) if you honestly feel like I am evading questions I gave you a very good opening to restate those questions you want answers to, yet you ask a highly trivial question.

Not directed at me, but...
(a) I did, in case it matters. That didn't bother me, since I was looking forward to whatever question was coming next.
(b) You seem nervous about my vote, which surprises me. And I never promised to always vote for whatever player said the least. I was originally responding to what you and Porkens said in 119-121.
(c) I have a question: do you find populartajo suspicious?

[Adel]

t;]I'm generating game-relevant information, she offered a couple of opinions on page 2. It stands out to me that she had a rapid random wagon on her on page 1 that dissolved so quickly.... and then you "didn't notice" that she was lurking worse than elmo.

Now you're saying something that's provably not true. They both had one post. Elmo's contained only a vote while spring's contained a handful of points plus a vote.
And by the way, why were you accusing Elmo of lurking if you thought Spring was "lurking worse"?

my mistake, my timeline got messed up. At this point she is lurking worse than Elmo, thanks to his recent post, and I'd moved up on my mental list of lurkers. btw, thanks pointed out that Tajo has been lurking, I missed that.

As far as omissions are concerned, I'd expect they'd be more likely inadvertent.

hence my gruffness and repeated attempt to get people to ammend their lists.

On a related note, is it acceptable to you that I didn't include my marathon games? I think others didn't include them either.

marathon games are very useful! Players play much more on reflex and out of habit in marathon games, and looking at them is invaluable.

But when I say that you have not yet contributed, what I mean is that until your case on me, you had very few comments on the issues other players were discussing.

I'm used to replacing into games. I have a very low opinion of any "cases" or "opinions" that are presented in the typical manner of mafiascum day 1s. Subliminal information is much more important, but that requires player-specific metas in order to evaluate -- which takes time to build.

either that, or it is page 1 chainsaw defense.

serves as a note to myself. It is a general scumtell that may be a player specific scumtell.

says the person that unvoted SpyreX .

points out a contradiction for me to follow up on later

Not true, especially early in a day 1. There are numerous non-scummy reasons to place a vote without explicit reasoning.

general mafia theory. I didn't want "votes must only be given with reasons" to be accepted as being "pro-town" meme when I seriously disagree with it.

did anyone else notice that he made a post on the site recently, just not in this game?

Who thinks he is lurking?

pointing out that elmo was lurking has utility for the town, and encourages elmo to post more.

I see these as being pretty minimal in terms of expression of opinions and ideas.

they are also dense with information.

Everything else you'd said up to that point was about your questions and arguing with people whose answers were incomplete or dismissive.

I was trying to get better accuracy in the lists, so they would be more useful in identifying scummy omissions.

If they lead to something useful, that will be great. But you've skipped over the actual game that's been taking place in the meantime.

the actual game so far has been pretty typical. I am satisfied that there is enough shit-stirring going on. I am interested in encouraging more even levels of participation at this point.

[Adel]

(b) You seem nervous about my vote, which surprises me. And I never promised to always vote for whatever player said the least. I was originally responding to what you and Porkens said in 119-121.

I haven't systematically looked at people yet. Your vote on me stood out, so I took a close look at your posts, and saw enough warrant a vote.

(c) I have a question: do you find populartajo suspicious?

I haven't looked at him yet. give me 60 seconds to look at his posts.

[Adel]

other than his low signal:noise ratio, and

I dont think you need the information THAT MUCH so I gave you a list already of some of the games I most remember. If its not enough then tell me the reason why should I link you to all my games.

-- which is like "please tell me how you plan on using this information to catch scum before I post that information" -- there isn't much.
I'd like for him to post more, so,

unvote, vote: populartajo

would you care to join me on this wagon? There is plenty of room, the music is great!

[Artem]

Your posts are concise, but it doesn't seem like you're going in any direction with them. Troll's posts are hard to read, Adel is stretching your Willing Suspension of Disbelief, and your vote... is one for pressure on Porkens. It seems like you're saying things without intending to follow up on them or attaching much significance to them.

That's right. With my current playstyle, I tend to do a lot of watching early in the game and a lot of playing when the game picks up. I've recently learned that my biggest pitfall in scum-hunting is getting a strong townie-tell from somebody and then being reluctant of letting it go (which occasionally ends up nipping me in the butt), so I'm trying harder to re-evaluate those who I'm getting townie vibes from.

Another aspect of it is slight intimidation with the cast. (I would still consider myself a newbie compared to a lot of you; no, I'm not playing a newbie card) As such, I'm being extra careful with getting "reads" on all of you. I've been called out on this playstyle in another game, where I've posted this (yes, Adel, I left this game off my list because I don't think a newbie game where I get NKd the first night is worth mentioning):

As per ignoring the other IC, I have to say that I am purposely keeping Albert at a null-tell for myself, because it's much more difficult to get a good read on an IC on Day 1 than the newbies. I see no sense in chasing a wild goose when I have better reads on the other players. I prefer to wait for one (or more) cardflips, the voting pattern information, the game event reactions, and any claims before I start forming my opinion of the other IC. Moreover, newbie-scum will often NK ICs to put the town at a greater disadvantage. So, I don't see the point of analyzing Albert on Day 1, when me or him may not even make it to Day 2.

This was said about the other IC in the game, Albert B. Rampage. I felt that because I was purposefully keeping him at null all day, my final read on him (which was IC-scum) at the end of Day 1 was more clearer than if I let my judgement be clouded throughout the day. Albert was lynched (and flipped scum) on Day 2.

The point is that I'm doing the same sort of purposefully keeping players at null in this game because you're all ICs. When I mentally "reset" a player to null every now and then, I tend to get a better read on them and feel that I'm less likely to fall into "OMG obv town" mentality, which is described above.

That said, I have played with four of you in other games and after playing this mental game with myself, here are my "current" reads on you:
Ecto - likely town; I happen to agree with his analysis of Porken's satire and I find SpyreX's "slap on the wrist" somewhat offputting and kinda scummy.
Spring - is playing pretty much like she did in the other two games (where I knew her alignment to be town); and I still stand by my earlier point that the best way to get SL posting is to start pushing a case on her (and I don't really have the stamina or purpose to do it a third time).
Tajo - is being a spaz; He's also being a spaz in a game I'm modding (

deleted

) so it's really messing with my head and I don't have a good read on him at the moment;
Hero - is likely scum; He played very analytically and aggressively in our game together and I quickly (but correctly, mind you) nailed him as obv town. He's still being analytical here but the level of aggressiveness is quite a bit lower. Why?

Hero is the only one for whom my meta on them doesn't add up with their current playstyle. That sets off a red flag for me, but at the same time, he was a newbie in our common game and his playstyle may have shifted as he got more experienced. Hard to tell at the moment.

Now, I'm trying really hard to not get stuck in thinking that Ecto and SL are town and keep evaluating their posts from Ecto-mafia and SL-mafia (if she ever posts again :/) viewpoints.

As per my vote. I'm well aware that my pressure is small, but I'm also aware that Porkens is not at all worried about a wagon forming on him and none of the other players (other than Ecto) like the idea of piling up on Porkens. Interestingly enough, this crowd does not seem to be interested in piling up on anybody as the last votecount looks like a rainbow.

[Adel]

IMHO posting the names of people you have town (regardless of your actual alignment) reads on helps scum players more than town players.

FWIW, it is probably better that Herodotus toned down his aggression in this game so far. Too many aggressive players is usually results in a townie cluster-fuck, and an easy scum win.

[Adel]

Mini 741 replaced out day 1, town, replaced by springlullaby (thanks!), other players: SpyreX (town)
Newbie 659 replaced in day 2, town, lost in endgame. No other players in this game.
Mini 650 replaced in day 3, scum, survived, other players: none
Mini 703 replaced in day 2, townie, survived, other players: Korts & Ecto (both were town)
Mafia 88, replaced in N4, mafia, survived. Other players: Elmo (town, died before I replaced in), Ecto (town, replaced out before I replaced in)
Martyr Mafia replaced in day 2, town while I was alive, both killed and recruited N2, lost, other players: populartajo (was also town while I was alive)

Full list of other players: SpyreX, springlullaby, Ecto, Korts, populartajo

[Artem]

IMHO posting the names of people you have town (regardless of your actual alignment) reads on helps scum players more than town players.

I know, but the point of the post was the contrast between the four players in the context of their meta. I thought I made it pretty clear that I'm trying to "clear the slate" on all players from time to time.

If Ecto/SL-scums decide that they have me in the bag because I have town reads on them, then they are going to be a little surprised later in the game. As such, I don't think I've given out any information that helps scum, but I've given out my view on playstyle consistency of the four players I've played with before, which helps town IMHO.

[caf19]

Votecount

Herodotus (2): Elmo, populartajo
Porkens (2): Artem, springlullaby
springlullaby (1): Porkens
Zorblag (1): Korts
Elmo (1): Zorblag
Adel (2): Herodotus, Vi
populartajo (2): Ectomancer, Adel

Not voting

SpyreX

Prodding springlullaby.

[springlullaby]

Lol, I got prodded whereas I was rereading.

So I'm back, and rereading.

[populartajo]

Im here.

Im going to be terribly busy today.

Will post tonigjht or tomorrow.

[Herodotus]

(yes, Adel, I left this game off my list because I don't think a newbie game where I get NKd the first night is worth mentioning):

In that case, I only have one previous game, and you and I haven't played together before... no, they count.

The point is that I'm doing the same sort of purposefully keeping players at null in this game because you're all ICs.

Hi!

Spring - is playing pretty much like she did in the other two games (where I knew her alignment to be town); and I still stand by my earlier point that the best way to get SL posting is to start pushing a case on her (and I don't really have the stamina or purpose to do it a third time).
...
Hero - is likely scum; He played very analytically and aggressively in our game together and I quickly (but correctly, mind you) nailed him as obv town. He's still being analytical here but the level of aggressiveness is quite a bit lower. Why?

"Likely scum"? That's pretty strong. If your argument is based purely on meta here, then wow. In your post you explain why your meta is different in this game, then you say someone else is "likely scum" because they're less aggressive in this game?
It sounds like you would have thought your vote would do some good on Spring -- and at the same time you're defusing any case that does get made against her by preemptively calling it pressure.
Your comment on Populartajo is not a good idea. In my opinion, you're hinting at information in another game.

Hero is the only one for whom my meta on them doesn't add up with their current playstyle. That sets off a red flag for me, but at the same time, he was a newbie in our common game and his playstyle may have shifted as he got more experienced. Hard to tell at the moment.

My playstyle has probably changed since my first game, but there are more significant issues that explain why I've been less aggressive. One is the "intimidation with the cast" that you claim, another is reduced ambition (I was rereading that game from page 1 every day because I was sure I'd be able to find the scum.) There are also the number of players and their playstyles (in our game, only you, Empking, and I were active, leaving 2 lurking scum and 4 lurking newbie townies.) So that game was crawling by comparison to this one.

As per my vote. I'm well aware that my pressure is small, but I'm also aware that Porkens is not at all worried about a wagon forming on him and none of the other players (other than Ecto) like the idea of piling up on Porkens. Interestingly enough, this crowd does not seem to be interested in piling up on anybody as the last votecount looks like a rainbow.

My interpretation of this paragraph is that you're voting Porkens because it's not going to make a difference... you say it won't pressure him and others won't join you.
You suggest that a case on Spring would make her active. I'd think that would give you a reason to at least vote for her, as pressure, even if you leave it up to someone else to make the case.

Heh, this game has a lot of "why aren't you voting Spring? That's suspicious."

You think I'm likely scum, but you're not voting me either? Doing so would have destabilized the rainbow you were worried about, too.

marathon games are very useful! Players play much more on reflex and out of habit in marathon games, and looking at them is invaluable.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10790
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10798
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10826
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11005
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11044
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11047
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11092
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11101
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=11054

So will you link us to your Epicmafia games, then?

[springlullaby]

A quick question before posting my thoughts,

MOD:

were scum allowed to talk before the game?

[Artem]

"Likely scum"? That's pretty strong. If your argument is based purely on meta here, then wow. In your post you explain why your meta is different in this game, then you say someone else is "likely scum" because they're less aggressive in this game?

Would "more likely scum than town" be better? Think of it as a gauge with the arrow pointing above 0. (where + is the scum side and - is the town side)

It sounds like you would have thought your vote would do some good on Spring -- and at the same time you're defusing any case that does get made against her by preemptively calling it pressure.

Calling something pressure does not diffuse the associated case. Here's an example.

You suggest that a case on Spring would make her active. I'd think that would give you a reason to at least vote for her, as pressure, even if you leave it up to someone else to make the case. Heh, this game has a lot of "why aren't you voting Spring? That's suspicious."
You think I'm likely scum, but you're not voting me either? Doing so would have destabilized the rainbow you were worried about, too.

I'm not voting for you because I don't think you deserve a vote based purely on meta. I'm not voting for spring because people (often myself included) tend to be less active over the weekend and I wanted to wait until Monday before piling up pressure.

Also, I'm not

worried

about the rainbow votecount. I noted it as an indication about players' reluctance to pile in on somebody, which I found interesting. It also means that I need to think carefully about my case before actually placing a vote if I'm going to convince anybody to follow me. I'm going to

Unvote

for now since everybody's nagging me about parking a vote on Porkens, which I don't think is really a problem.

[Artem]

Also, wanted to make a snide comment on this:

In that case, I only have one previous game, and you and I haven't played together before... no, they count.

Thank you, Mr. Meta Police. I missed the part where Adel hired you.

[Herodotus]

Would "more likely scum than town" be better? Think of it as a gauge with the arrow pointing above 0. (where + is the scum side and - is the town side)

That makes the problem with your lack of vote more explicit. You know very well that a 50% chance of lynching scum on D1 is excellent, so you should not only be voting me, you should be trying to get me lynched. That you aren't means, at least, that you don't really believe I'm "more likely scum than town."

It sounds like you would have thought your vote would do some good on Spring -- and at the same time you're defusing any case that does get made against her by preemptively calling it pressure.

Calling something pressure does not diffuse the associated case. Here's an example.

If some other player was to make a case against her, you're painting that case as non-serious. Not a major issue, but not helpful.

I'm not voting for you because I don't think you deserve a vote based purely on meta. I'm not voting for spring because people (often myself included) tend to be less active over the weekend and I wanted to wait until Monday before piling up pressure.

Also, I'm not

worried

about the rainbow votecount. I noted it as an indication about players' reluctance to pile in on somebody, which I found interesting. It also means that I need to think carefully about my case before actually placing a vote if I'm going to convince anybody to follow me. I'm going to

Unvote

for now since everybody's nagging me about parking a vote on Porkens, which I don't think is really a problem.

It's definitely contrary to your behavior in our other game. And the point isn't only that you do have a vote on Porkens that you have described as meaningless, it's also that you aren't voting for me. You say I don't "deserve" a vote based on meta; but don't I "deserve" a vote based on your stated belief that it's more likely that I'm scum than that I'm town?

[Artem]

I'm sorry. You're saying that it's too strong for me to derive your scumminess based purely on the meta of your very first game. I happen to agree, but you seem to really want a vote.

I'd hate to disappoint.

Vote: Herodotus

[Herodotus]

I'm sorry. You're saying that it's too strong for me to derive your scumminess based purely on the meta of your very first game. I happen to agree, but you seem to really want a vote.

I'd hate to disappoint.

Vote: Herodotus

No, my first and my last points were that you supposedly did exactly that, but didn't follow up by voting me.

And take responsibility for your vote -- don't place it because I "want" it, place it because you think I'm scum. So, now, why do you think I'm scum?

vote: Artem

[Herodotus]

This is funny: the last time I voted Artem, I forgot to

unvote

first, and I don't think I've forgotten since then.

vote: Artem

[Artem]

Alright, here are your reasons:

0) You're playing differently than your meta. Not only are you less aggressive, but you also seem more emotional and less cool-headed.

My playstyle has probably changed since my first game, but there are more significant issues that explain why I've been less aggressive. One is the "intimidation with the cast" that you claim, another is reduced ambition (I was rereading that game from page 1 every day because I was sure I'd be able to find the scum.) There are also the number of players and their playstyles (in our game, only you, Empking, and I were active, leaving 2 lurking scum and 4 lurking newbie townies.) So that game was crawling by comparison to this one.

So, by your logic, since the game is not crawling, you don't really have to do anything. Is there a reason your ambitions are reduced? Is there no scum to hunt in this game, or do you just have no reason to because you already know who they are?

1) A townie shouldn't be asking for a vote. If you really are town, then all you're doing is distracting attention from the scum onto yourself.

2) You seem to be buddying up to Adel:

In that case, I only have one previous game, and you and I haven't played together before... no, they count.

Is it scummy for me to not mention a newbie game, which I don't feel I contributed much to (and where I was town-aligned)? You got NKd on the first night because of your stellar play. I get NKd on the first night routinely simply because I'm an IC.

If it's not scummy for me to not mention that game, then what's the point of saying "they count"? Adel is trying to fabricate a feeling that not providing a full list of requested information is somehow scummy and I think you're blindly following that feeling without really understanding why.

3) Piling up on somebody early in the game is a great scum tactic, because they can easily bring somebody up to L-2 or L-1 and argue their way out with "it's not dangerous", or "I'm doing it to get out of RVS". This is why early wagons generate good content. The fact that there was no such wagon means that the scum are either shy or inactive. Lurkers aside, you yourself said that you're intimidated by the cast. (me being the other person who's intimidated, but I'd argue that I was pro-wagon from the start of the game).

Also,

It's definitely contrary to your behavior in our other game. And the point isn't only that you do have a vote on Porkens that you have described as meaningless, it's also that you aren't voting for me. You say I don't "deserve" a vote based on meta; but don't I "deserve" a vote based on your stated belief that it's more likely that I'm scum than that I'm town?

Yes, I'm playing differently in this game. I don't have a bunch of newbie players that I'm trying to get to post. It seems that Troll is already fulfilling the activity police duty and I don't see much sense for me to vote hop like I did in our game together.

[Herodotus]

No, Artem, I disagree with what could be seen as an "honesty test" from Adel, since I don't think the scum are more likely to omit games. But IIRC Adel only said those games deserved more attention, not that the presence of omissions was necessarily scummy.
The rest of your post I'll address when I have more time.

[Artem]

Well, then I honestly stated that there are other games that are not as noteworthy.

[SpyreX]

Well it looks like I've finally got someone I can vote for. Someone who I can really sink my teeth into.

Someone who has been there to snipe and jump on some spurious bandwagons.
Someone who unapologetically wanted a bandwagon for "generating content".
Someone who gave a rather lengthy post explaining in detail why at any given point his reads can change. In selfsame post also gave a page 7 "feeler" list of some townies (but of course not the entire game).
Someone who is justifying this latest move with meta. Sigh. Further, with a sample set of 1. Double Sigh.
Someone who agrees that said meta is weak, apologizes and then votes.

If I really need to megapost the above I will. I'd rather not.

Vote: Artem.