Mini 167 - Les Miserables Mafia. Game over!

[EmpTyger]

vikingfan:
I don’t feel I have information about the “searching for Cosette” ability to give advice. I’m hesitant to ask for details to be revealed, but if you feel it’s safe: can you say anything about “sending Eponine”? If you aren’t sure, chose to remain silent.


Krishna:

<snip>No. You are deliberately leaving out the second part of this assertion, which is that I absolutely will not vote on someone without proof. Further, EmpTyger, anybody who is Pro-Town (I guess except for the Masons?) *should* be willing to vote for absolutely anybody, *IF* given proof of their guilt.

Well, “proof” is a high burden. I mean, did you have such proof when you voted for vikingfan? You can’t assume that you’re going to find true proof of anyone’s guilt, especially on Day 1.

However, I wasn’t so much objecting to the willingness to vote for anyone at all as I was questioning the logic that doing so would prove "that [you're] not scum". I’m not even convinced that being unwilling to vote for somebody implies anything. For example, I think that voting for one of the claimed masons at this point is too risky, even though I feel there are good reasons to suspect them, perhaps more than any other at this point. But I wouldn’t base any conclusion on alignment based on someone’s unwillingness to vote them.

<snip>Is there a way Town can tell Masons to promise not to recruit anyone, as a show of good faith?

I don't think so. Regardless of their alignment, I can’t think of an instance where it would not be in the masons’ best interest to [successfully] recruit. (Which, incidentally, was why I was suspect about there being no night 1 recruitment attempt, although I’m accepting for now the explanation of unknown risk presented by a misrecruit.) Every group in the game, regardless of alignment, wants their team to be as large as possible. [This actually seems like a fascinating theoretical question: what might happen if this axiom were somehow removed. Though I have no idea how such a game would be constructed.]

[EmpTyger]

<grumble>crossposted again...

gootentag:
That wasn’t really what I meant by “booby-trapped” abilities, but perhaps I chose a bad descriptor. I was wondering more about whether there was an ability that was totally antitown, rather than generally protown yet with an antitown side effect: some ability that a protown player would have no reason to choose to use. Perhaps that’s too specific.

I am not attempting to play devil's advocate here. I admit to being a less than frequent poster, but I think one of the reasons is that one of my biggest pet peeves in Mafia in general is people who post to avoid "lurking" and say nothing. If my contributions seem contrary in nature, it is most likely that I feel more compelled to voice them if I feel I'm saying something that hasn't been said.

Nothing wrong with contrariness, but there’s nothing wrong with agreement either. I mean, are you implying that you’ve agreed with everything you haven’t commented on? It may seem self-serving to do so at the time, but in the future, it becomes good for the town to have a basis of where players stand...

FOS:EmpTyger. Another thing that constantly irks me is bandwagoning for the sake of bandwagoning. Continuing to vote for someone primarily because they currently have the most votes strikes me as inherrently scummy. If you think I'm scum, by all means vote and tell me why so that I may clarify my stance or arguments (and even occasionally change them,) but you can't logically defend myself and it becomes futile to even try.

I voted you because you were one of the people *I* thought suspicious. Since I didn’t feel too strongly about any of my possibilities, I figured that I’d go for those which could be easily addressed- and you’d be receiving a third vote, while another would only be receiving mine.
I wanted clarification not of your actions, but of your style. It shouldn’t take threats or votes to get you to speak.

Having said that, you have responded, and I don’t feel strongly enough to keep you at 3 votes, so

unvote: gootentag

. Though I’m not completely satisfied. If I find myself again needing to vote to hear your opinions, I'll probably be much more reluctant to unvote...


At the risk of renewing a “vendetta”,

vote: LoudmouthLee

. SK might be extremely speculative, but others are concurring with at least one observation I made.

[MeMe]

I'll join you in that.

unvote: gootentag
vote: LmL

I'm especially interested in the fact that he's been absent in this thread for several days while posting elsewhere.

[vikingfan]

Unvote

and

Vote LML

at least until he starts posting and gives a coherent reason why he's been posting elsewhere and not here.

[gootentag]

Flavorwise, I find it ironic that Marius is voting for Cosette. Functionally, it is also worth taking note. Surely the two of you (masons) should have some clue as to Cosette's allignment, if not her role. I'm pretty sure the role exists, and in the absence of a counterclaim at this point, I figure the two of you would be most prone to believe it.

[gootentag]

*bump* to get this above all or the recently closed games.

[LoudmouthLee]

Flavorwise, I find it ironic that Marius is voting for Cosette. Functionally, it is also worth taking note. Surely the two of you (masons) should have some clue as to Cosette's allignment, if not her role. I'm pretty sure the role exists, and in the absence of a counterclaim at this point, I figure the two of you would be most prone to believe it.

Unvote: Gootentag
Vote: MeMe
FoS: EmpTyper
FoS: Viking Fan

My thoughts exactly.

Here's what I don't like... Meme's first and only unvote is a vote to me, even after I claimed.

If you can come up with ANY idea, MeMe, about how Cosette is Mafia, please let me know.

Until then, consider this a formal vote to you on crap logic. I'd vote emptyger again, but that doesnt seem to be going anywhere. Right now, I would *not* be shocked if, at the end of this game, we found you two in bed together. (Before I get misquoted.. I mean as Mafia)

Viking fan, if you don't give me any better reason for you voting a possible mason AFTER you were "searching for me", let me know. Until then, you three have replaced everyone on my people who are mafia list.

If you feel it necessary to get the entirity of my role, lynch me. If you're pro-town, you're making a huge mistake.

[LoudmouthLee]

and, PS: I'm *not* a mason with Viking. He needs to find me.

Maybe he needs to find a different witty girl to go to his bed.

[LoudmouthLee]

Triple post- Posting elsewhere and not here? Mainly because I feel the conversations here have been relatively hogwash and running me around in circles. I'm not going to post for the sake of posting. I'll post when I have something to say.

[MeMe]

Here's what I don't like... Meme's first and only unvote is a vote to me, even after I claimed.

If you can come up with ANY idea, MeMe, about how Cosette is Mafia, please let me know.

Interesting that you pick me out of those voting for you for retaliation...but I'll step up to your challenge:

1) Cosette is the reason Fantine worked herself to the bone and, ultimately, died
2) Cosette is the reason Valjean was ever exposed to the Thenardiers in the first place
3) Rescuing Cosette is the reason Valjean escaped from his proper punishment the second time
4) Caring for Cosette is the reason that Valjean must live under an assumed identity
5) Cosette is the reason the Marius is distracted from his revolutionary work
6) It is in returning from delivering a message to Cosette that Eponine is killed (I think I'm remembering this timing correctly)
7) It is for Cosette that Marius pushes Valjean out of their lives and into loneliness at the end of the book.

But, let me be clear, it is

your behavior

I find scummish -- not your role or I'd have voted for you the minute you claimed. I find your attempt to wave your name as your sole defense ridiculous. Cosette may not be evil incarnate, but I'd say she's, at best, a neutral character who acts as a catalyst for much misfortune. After it was pointed out that you claimed your name quickly after the masons came out despite the fact that you'd earlier threatened that we wouldn't be happy if we "forced" you to it makes me wonder what result being "found" will have...and that you refuse to give us a hint about what will happen worries me. If you're pro-town and don't

know

what will happen, I think it should worry

you

as well.

If you feel it necessary to get the entirity of my role, lynch me. If you're pro-town, you're making a huge mistake.

And I think this is interesting. Again a threat and a refusal to provide details about your role. If you've got a power role (as you claim) then withholding it until death is simply childish.

and, PS: I'm *not* a mason with Viking. He needs to find me.

Maybe he needs to find a different witty girl to go to his bed.

And though I'm pretty sure this was an attempt at humor...I'll just point out that in no way could Cosette be characterized as either witty or likely to go to bed with anyone other than Marius.

Triple post- Posting elsewhere and not here? Mainly because I feel the conversations here have been relatively hogwash and running me around in circles. I'm not going to post for the sake of posting. I'll post when I have something to say.

Ridiculous. When conversation is "hogwash" pro-town players should say so and try to figure out why and who is perpetuating said hogwash. That you're dismissing the contributions with a wave of your hand to excuse your lurking is not only insulting but, from what I've seen, also out of character for you. I'd have a easier time believing "I forgot about the game" than for you to assert that you deliberately ignored the game as a whole for more than five days and specific accusations against you for more than two because you didn't deem them worthy of response.

I'm feeling pretty good about the location of my vote at the moment.

[vikingfan]

I have no doubt that Cosette exists. Here's why at this point tn time, I'm voting LML.

A)scummish behavior already noted,
B)LML is pretty far from being lynched,
C)the theory of us being pro-town with anti-town abilities has a chance to be true, and as such, I don't know what would happen if I located Cosette,

and most importantly, D)I'm not sure that LML is really Cosette. He claimed unprompted and the behavior is bad. If he's not Cosette, then obviously someone else is and he's scum trying to get by with a claim. For those wondering why there is no counterclaim, I think of it like a doc-why counterclaim day 1 and out yourself?

E)there is a possibility, following the line of C), that negative things could result from finding Cosette. It would counteract the power of the masons. Or possibly LML has a role that kills the recruiter if recruited.

All that being said, I'm still leaning toward LML as being Cosette but I'm not sure as to the consequences of that result. Hence why I'm wondering if it's best to recruit Cosette.

[vikingfan]

Oops, that should be 'search for' instead of 'recruit'.

[LoudmouthLee]

Fine, MeMe, you win.

I am Cosette... the beautiful Cosette... who, as we all know, is safely guarded behind walls.

I'm pro-town and un-nightkillable. My actions were a certain way to get the mafia to waste a night kill (or two) on me.

Looks like that never came to fruitation.

[LoudmouthLee]

PS: The Hogwash was frustration speaking, I apologize. I just thought that someone would pick up on my role via the way I was posting and the way Cosette is described.

As for my attempt for humor, please humor me and tell me if you remember Marius singing this song...

"Drink with me... to days... gone by...
To the night... that used... to be...
Here's to pretty girls who went to our heads...
Here's to witty girls who went to our beds."

But, like many of my attempts thus far, it's going over everyone's heads. Also, I never said I "ignored the game", as I have read every single post the near moment it came up. I just didn't feel like adding anything at that time. I don't enjoy spinning my wheels.

[gootentag]

Un-night killable is one of the easyest claims for scum to make - it justifies them not dying after a false claim is made. In fact some mods (incl. Jeep) roll nightkill immunity in with apearing town into Godfather roles. In any event, if we have a vigilante they should probably hit LML tonight if he's still around. If his corpse turns up tomorrow, we know he was lying. If he's telling the truth we haven't lost anything other than a night 2 vig kill that may or may not have been productive anyway.

(I am also aware that he may be telling the truth about his ability and not about his role/alignment or that he may have some other way of circumventing a nightkill in the event that he was lying. Or that we hav no vigilantes. Sorry if this is seen as playing Devil's Advocate again )

[vikingfan]

Unvote LML

Though that ability seems just a little too powerful. I'm going to leave LML alone for now and search for her tonight and then report back tomorrow.

So now we've got 2 masons and a person that's unnightkillable. That seems way too powerful for a 9-man game. If all this is true, I'm guessing we're probably missing either a cop or a doc.

[LoudmouthLee]

Un-night killable is one of the easyest claims for scum to make - it justifies them not dying after a false claim is made. In fact some mods (incl. Jeep) roll nightkill immunity in with apearing town into Godfather roles. In any event, if we have a vigilante they should probably hit LML tonight if he's still around. If his corpse turns up tomorrow, we know he was lying. If he's telling the truth we haven't lost anything other than a night 2 vig kill that may or may not have been productive anyway.

(I am also aware that he may be telling the truth about his ability and not about his role/alignment or that he may have some other way of circumventing a nightkill in the event that he was lying. Or that we hav no vigilantes. Sorry if this is seen as playing Devil's Advocate again )

In my roleclaim, I received no info about any masonry. This is news to me. Especially coupled with the fact that you "voted your love"...

I'm going to upgrade my FoS now. I'm still worried about MeMe, honestly... but for now...

Unvote, but IGMEOY: MeMe, Vote: VikingFan

[Aelyn]

Monsieur Hugo stands up, noticing that the crowd seems to have finally found something to talk about. He deems it appropriate to explain the current situation, in temrs of a vote count:

LoudmouthLee

- 2 (Emptyger, MeMe)
Vikingfan - 1 (LoudmouthLee)

Not voting: Changling Bob, Gootentag, LordKrishna, Mr Stoofer, vikingfan.

8 alive, 5 to lynch.

He reminds people to inform him of any mistakes he has made, then quietly sits back down, not wishing to disturb the flow of conversation too strongly.

[Changling bob]

LoudmouthLee, I personally do not believe this claim.

Before this claim it was mentioned how powerful the town must be, due to there being two masons. If your claim is true, as vikingfan points out, the town is far too powerful.

There's also the issue of us not making you claim, followed by you coming out with your role unprompted. This seems a little incongruous (not that I can spell incongruous).

In addition to this, in [158]:

Triple post- Posting elsewhere and not here? Mainly because I feel the conversations here have been relatively hogwash and running me around in circles. I'm not going to post for the sake of posting. I'll post when I have something to say.

Surely if we're talking hogwash, you should (a) come and point that out, (b) explain why we are, and (c) promote some other idea or something.

Having seen you seemingly contradict yourself several times in this thread about your role (that you brought up, tried to surpress, jumped up with a character claim, avoided claiming role, and now claiming), I now feel happy enough to place my first

Vote: LML

[LordKrishna]

In my roleclaim, I received no info about any masonry. This is news to me. Especially coupled with the fact that you "voted your love"...

I'm going to upgrade my FoS now. I'm still worried about MeMe, honestly... but for now...

Unvote, but IGMEOY: MeMe, Vote: VikingFan

I have no idea why you are doing this. The previous post you made had a vote on MeMe and Fingers pointed at EmpTyger (which you didn't explain) and vikingfan. Now, you switch from MeMe to vikingfan, seemingly randomly, and don't mention your FOS on EmpTyger again. I'd like to know more about your reasons for voting and pointing the FoS.

For those wondering why there is no counterclaim, I think of it like a doc-why counterclaim day 1 and out yourself?

Because it would be nothing like a doc -- it'd be like a cop having full knowledge of a person's guilt. In the event that someone can prove that someone is scum, then isn't it always worth it for them to sacrifice themselves to get the town lynched?

-K

[EmpTyger]

Gah, too much power claimed on the town side...

<snip>So now we've got 2 masons and a person that's unnightkillable. That seems way too powerful for a 9-man game. If all this is true, I'm guessing we're probably missing either a cop or a doc.

Or that [at least] one of the claims is false...?


gootentag:
If we do decide to not lynch LML, I see nothing wrong with your vigilante plan- except for the possibility that we might not have any vigilantes. The town is already touching on overpowered, so I think it’s a real possibility. The only way to know for sure if we have a vigilante is for one to come forward- and that worries me for a several reasons...


Krishna:

<snip>

For those wondering why there is no counterclaim, I think of it like a doc-why counterclaim day 1 and out yourself?

Because it would be nothing like a doc -- it'd be like a cop having full knowledge of a person's guilt. In the event that someone can prove that someone is scum, then isn't it always worth it for them to sacrifice themselves to get the town lynched?

This is hypothetical, but:
In the instance of the doctor, if they stay hidden an extra day, they have a chance of saving someone overnight. In both instances, if the mafia kills them overnight, the same effect is achieved as if they came forward, so the sacrifice prevents a nightkill. Mind you, if Day 2 is a critical lynch situation that the town must get right if it misses Day 1, then this is probably unnecessarily risky, but I’m just mentioning the theoretical possibility. Even if they’re effectively a cop, they're still a doctor.

Mind you, since this game is so small, I’m not sure that that would be applicable here, but I certainly don’t want to speak for everyone. Besides, even if LML is Cosette, that doesn’t mean anything. “Don’t outguess the mod” aside, there’s that Harry Potter precedent and MeMe’s textual examples. (Which I wanted to hypercorrect, but it seemed too irrelevant to get into. Must... resist... urge... for... tangential Les Mis. discussion!)


LML:
Your initial defense was OMGUSx3. Then you claim “crap logic” without pointing out what, where, or how. How was this supposed to encourage people to unvote? And I did get the “witty girls” allusion, but could not figure out what you were trying to reference. Actually, I was guessing something related to Grantaire.

<snip>If you feel it necessary to get the entirity of my role, lynch me. If you're pro-town, you're making a huge mistake.

This doesn’t really jibe with what you claimed. Your claim doesn’t ruin you; on the contrary, you’re still more effective than a vanilla, since you’d be an innocent the mafia couldn’t do anything about. Compare that to a doctor, who faces a likely nightkill after claiming. The town already has a hard enough time distinguishing between a doctor and a mafia claiming doctor. How are we also supposed to factor in the possibility of an unnightkillable claiming doctor?

Plus some other suspicions: as already mentioned by others, your lurking and your defense of your lurking. Plus I found curious how you switched your vote to vikingfan immediately after he unvoted you and announced that he would test you by searching you tonight. Not to mention those suspicions I brought up earlier in the game.

However, despite all this suspicions, you have finally explained your role, although I’m not sure I’d call it sufficient at this point. I would unvote you while I reevaluate, but I would still like one outstanding point cleared up. There were a set of questions that bob asked, which you deferred on account of not wanting your role to be revealed. With that no longer a concern, can you finally address them?

<snip>Any chance on elaborating on (a) what you know about who the scum are or (b) how you know who the scum are?<snip>

[EmpTyger]

Um, ignore my response to vikingfan's quote above. Next time I'll actually read before replying.

[LordKrishna]

A few comments, EmpTyger:

Gah, too much power claimed on the town side...

<snip>So now we've got 2 masons and a person that's unnightkillable. That seems way too powerful for a 9-man game. If all this is true, I'm guessing we're probably missing either a cop or a doc.

Or that [at least] one of the claims is false...?

Perhaps there are also 3 Mafia? (!)

Even if they’re effectively a cop, they're still a doctor.

I've read this a few times, but I honestly have absolutely no idea what you mean by this!!

How are we also supposed to factor in the possibility of an unnightkillable claiming doctor?

I am again unclear on why you bring up a doctor at all. LML is claiming (perhaps I'm wrong?) to be an un-night-killable Townie, but makes no mention of being a Doctor.

LML, I too am very eager to hear you answer Bob's questions.

I must say, I still do find it really weird that Marius and Cosette are fighting...!

-K

P.S. This is unrelated, I suppose, to the discussion, but MeMe, I think you read LML's point wrong here:

and, PS: I'm *not* a mason with Viking. He needs to find me.

Maybe he needs to find a different witty girl to go to his bed.

And though I'm pretty sure this was an attempt at humor...I'll just point out that in no way could Cosette be characterized as either witty or likely to go to bed with anyone other than Marius.

I think LML isn't saying that Cosette would go to bed with another man, but that Marius is looking for another girl. Opposite of what you thought. I don't think this affects anyone's suspicion of LML, but I just thought I'd clarify the point for anyone else who got confused by this exchange earlier -- something was bugging me, but I wasn't able to figure it out 'til now.

[MeMe]

Hmmm. Looking back over Lee's posts I can buy his claim that he was attempting to draw mafia fire by claiming to have power that the town would be sorry to lose...and it does make sense thematically for Cosette to be more heavily protected than anyone else.

Of course, as has been already brought up, claiming to be unkillable explains surviving the night if mafia. I'll go ahead and add that it's an

especially

good claim for an SK to make because it causes mafia to aim elsewhere out of fear of wasting a kill while making town unwilling to lynch the claimant as well. And I'm not saying that Cosette's likely to be an SK -- just pointing out the merits of the claim if she

were

.

Anyway....

unvote: Loudmouth

for now.

viking: I'm confused. You went from wondering whether it was a good idea to search for Cosette given the possibility that Loudmouth is scum to stating that you would absolutely do so tonight. Why? I'm also curious about the use of "recruit" (which you corrected right after) and the possibility of it being a Freudian slip. At the moment I still think it's sound to keep you two masons out of the noose...but your recent posts have made me wonder what's going on.

Perhaps there are also 3 Mafia? (!)

I still don't see this as plausible. One wrong lynch today (the day most likely for a wrong lynch to occur) and a successful mafia kill tonight would make the numbers 3 scum to 3 town -- game over.

And LK, point taken about LmL possibly talking about someone other than Cosette (though I did recognize the song, I just thought he was referring to

himself

as a witty girl who gets around).

[EmpTyger]

Krishna:

<snip>Perhaps there are also 3 Mafia? (!)

A 3 person mafia was briefly mentioned during the earlier analysis of killing groups [40]. The problem I have with it was that it makes the outcome of the game dependent on whether the town lynches correctly on Day 1. If we mislynch today, then with a nightkill there are 6 players and 3 mafia tomorrow, classically a mafia win. (Although I suppose if it’s played out an unnightkillable protown/lucky doctor + a vigilante might allow the town to win, it feels like then the game comes down purely to chance- whether the mafia gets lucky in a random selection.)

Even if they’re effectively a cop, they're still a doctor.

I've read this a few times, but I honestly have absolutely no idea what you mean by this!!

Wow, I could have explained that *much* better.
Since I’m skeptical that LML isn’t Cosette, I think this is really a purely theoretical discussion. But for the purpose of trying to clarify what I meant: this was about whether a player should counterclaim (specifically, if another Cosette exists). The example was that a doctor, by coming forward, would act as a cop since he exposed a mafia. I was trying to point out that such a doctor still had value as a doctor beyond that as alignment-revealer.

How are we also supposed to factor in the possibility of an unnightkillable claiming doctor?

I am again unclear on why you bring up a doctor at all. LML is claiming (perhaps I'm wrong?) to be an un-night-killable Townie, but makes no mention of being a Doctor.<snip>

And I thought the last point I could have explained better...
I did not at all mean to imply that LML was a doctor. “claiming” was a very bad word choice; “having feigned” would have been closer to what I meant. LML had based his actions pre-claim on the statement that he held a power role that should not be revealed, even facing a lynch. For the purpose of example I called that role doctor (since other exposed power roles would have the chance of doctor protection, whereas an exposed doctor, if they are believed and not lynched, face a likely nightkill). So that’s where the doctor comes in. Maybe “doctoresque” would have been better.

Consider the possibilities gootentag put forth for evaluating the mason claims:

<snip>
1 - they are lying about their ability and are scum,
2 - they are telling the truth about their roles and are town,
3 - they are telling the truth about their roles and are scum,<snip>

LML is claiming a 4th option: lying about his role and is town.
(And yes, lying might be too strong an accusation, but at the very least he was being deceptive.)

The other 2 games (admittedly newbies) I’ve been in on this site had power roles lynched Day 1 despite their claims. I felt that there was enough difficulty in a simple evaluation of a Day 1 reluctance to claim that I didn’t think faking a doctoresque role to try to draw mafia attention was a sensible plan, particularly for an innocent under suspicion. For a town evaluating a doctoresque claim, it seems hard enough if the only possibilities are mafia and doctoresque, to say nothing of mafia or doctoresque or unnightkillable.

Basically, I didn’t feel his actions pre-claim made sense for the role he’s claiming, nor do I understand why he is so shocked that people are disbelieving him. In retrospect, maybe I should have simply said that.

As for the “witty girl” comment, perhaps LML could clear that up himself rather than us guessing at it?