The Manor: Chzo Mafia (Game Over!)

[Lamont_Cranston]

The only reason I would want to give the item to anyone is, as Xtoxm said, as an acid test to see how these items are to be viewed in the future.

A) Volunteers -- Mega rolefishing, good for the Mafi.
B) Random -- Risks harming a PR
C) Lynch Candidate -- We can be sure we don't have a PR AND view the results before dispatching them. Everything can be verified after they flip.

[Naomi_Saotome]

*Awaits Pyro case*
A lot of people agree with you... I think you're going over the top and you're a little bit pushy...

Fos Pyro

[Amished]

I agree that we might not specifically not want to lynch the person who drinks it, as it could be beneficial/change how we view the game, especially regarding the person who drinks it. Personally I disagree with giving it to the person with the highest votes. Even though that I believe that the potion is more likely to be harmful, I won't just discount the fact that it could be beneficial. To then give it to somebody that a number of people view as scum would then not turn out to be that great of an idea. When I mentioned a scummy looking volunteer in 477, I was thinking of somebody somewhat scummy, maybe not the top scummiest person on most peoples lists, but somebody that people have a suspicion (and therefore opinion) about, while them also possibly looking a bit more scummy so that if it is harmful like I believe then it'll still be beneficial to harm somebody scummy looking. (It's somewhat convoluted, but if anybody needs me to clarify anything, please ask).

@AJ: Clearly I haven't, and without being pointed to it *ever* I don't see how I would've come across it. I don't see how a N0 vig is beneficial more often than it's harmful. Perhaps after the game we can discuss this in one manner or another, or right now if you think it's that relevant to what we're doing. I've heard of just as many cases where a vig doesn't shoot N0 as they do shoot somebody then, so from that the jury is still kinda out in my eyes. Unrelated note: Happy Birthday.

[Nyx]

We are not going to get any infomation about these items, which are clearly a major part of this game given the fact the mod included it in the rules, and the way he worded it, if we let the first item go unused. The is the earliest stage of the game, no matter what it is, it will have the least long term impact than at any other stage of the game.

This is exactly why I'd rather use the decanter then let it go to waste.

Why would we give it to the lynch canidate? That makes no sense.

If its beneficial we threw it away.

If its harmful, its not any worse then not using it

If its verifiable, we lost an oppurtunity to verify someone.

The lynch canidate is someone it should NOT go to.

Exactly. Anyone thinking it is in our best interest to give THIS item to a L-1 ( Scum in town's eyes ) should be lynched themselves for obvious reasons.

I was thinking of somebody somewhat scummy, maybe not the top scummiest person on most peoples lists, but somebody that people have a suspicion (and therefore opinion) about, while them also possibly looking a bit more scummy so that if it is harmful like I believe then it'll still be beneficial to harm somebody scummy looking.

Which in your eyes would be ?

For the record.

Unvote

RVS vote and

FoS

: Everyone voting for Naomi without posting a case.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I think you've let Xtoxm inside your head because your logic has gone out the window.

I agree that we might not specifically not want to lynch the person who drinks it, as it could be beneficial/change how we view the game, especially regarding the person who drinks it.

Even though that I believe that the potion is more likely to be harmful, I won't just discount the fact that it could be beneficial.

If your concern is that it is going to be beneficial then why give it to somebody scummy at all? Xtoxm's argument here is that we need to see what the potion will do, why give a potential benefit to scum that is going to live?

(It's somewhat convoluted, but if anybody needs me to clarify anything, please ask).

<<< that.

[Pyromaniac]

I say let him make the decision because then he alone is responsible for the outcome. If we sit around bickering about whether or not to use it, we're all still just pointing a finger at each other.

But then again, pointing the finger might help us all... so if we all agree to use it, I think Xtoxm should drink it, seeing as he volunteered.

In the first part of the post she says that it should be entirely hohum's decision. This is incredible scummy, would it make sense to put the fate of the village into one random person's hands? No. We should not even attempt to control what he does with it. Yet in the second part of the post she says that Xtoxm should drink it, even though she should be in no way responsible for suggesting the idea. If you don't get it, then it is like suggesting a lynch and not being responsible if it kills you vig. Basically, she wants to have her cake and eat it too.

Yes, I think it's probable to assume that it would likely kill someone. Though I'm sure there are an infinite number of other possibilities. Since we don't know what it is, it could be wine, or some kind of truth serum. Seeing as we don't 'what' the item does, I think it plays more value by being here then it does by being used or not being used. I think the decanter has caused quite the stir, and we can't agree on what to do with it. Which creates a major problem. Since we all can't agree on it, the decanter is next to worthless. Which is why I suggested someone else make the call.

In this post Naomi states that it will probably kill someone or do something bad for them. She still says that we should drink it.

No I did not say that its likely to be given to a townie. So, you're contradicting yourself in your statement. We don't know what it's affects are. Good or bad. Yet you assume I think it's bad for the town. Which really means you think it's bad for the town. I did not say 'in all probability' I said that it's likely to have a negative affect, but it is also likely that it can help us. And I do believe I stated that we don't know what these items do many times. I do believe that using it will help us, regardless of what the decanter's contents actually do.

In this post she says that it is not likely that it will be given to a townie. Remember that in the first quote she said that she someone should drink it because they volunteered?

Agree'd once again... seeing as I've said this once already

In this post, Naomi is agreeing that the volunteering system is anti-town. Yet, in the first post she suggests Xtoxm because he was a volunteer, supporting the volunteering system.

From these post, you can conclude that Naomi:
A. Supports the volunteering system
B. Is against the volunteering system
C. Thinks we should all be sheep to hohum
D. Wants an opinion, but does not want to be responsible for it
E. Admits that the item will probably be bad, yet wants us to drink it anyways

I missed several posts.

Also Naomi, Lamont asked.

[Pyromaniac]

Also

Mod: Votecount please

[Lamont_Cranston]

Exactly. Anyone thinking it is in our best interest to give THIS item to a L-1 ( Scum in town's eyes ) should be lynched themselves for obvious reasons.

For the record.

Unvote

RVS vote and

FoS

: Everyone voting for Naomi without posting a case.

I don't see your "obvious" reasons. The purpose for the elixir being consumed (in Xtoxm's argument) is to test the item to see if future items will be beneficial to the town.

The reason it shouldn't be randomly given away is to avoid hurting town PR's. There is no better way to avoid that (without giving useful info to the Mafi) then by giving it to the town BW choice.

Saying that we should give it to someone that is "kinda scummy but not TOO much" makes like ZERO sense and there is no proof that this "scummy" person isn't a PR anyway.

Let's just see what the item does and move on from there.

[Pyromaniac]

What I think he is saying is that if we force it upon a L-1 scum then they would suicide rather than give us the info.

[Naomi_Saotome]

I say let him make the decision because then he alone is responsible for the outcome. If we sit around bickering about whether or not to use it, we're all still just pointing a finger at each other.

But then again, pointing the finger might help us all... so if we all agree to use it, I think Xtoxm should drink it, seeing as he volunteered.

In the first part of the post she says that it should be entirely hohum's decision. This is incredible scummy, would it make sense to put the fate of the village into one random person's hands? No. We should not even attempt to control what he does with it. Yet in the second part of the post she says that Xtoxm should drink it, even though she should be in no way responsible for suggesting the idea. If you don't get it, then it is like suggesting a lynch and not being responsible if it kills you vig. Basically, she wants to have her cake and eat it too.

I didn't say we should let him have his way with every single point in this game. Simply that from where I stand, in THIS instance, I think it's the best choice.

Yes, I think it's probable to assume that it would likely kill someone. Though I'm sure there are an infinite number of other possibilities. Since we don't know what it is, it could be wine, or some kind of truth serum. Seeing as we don't 'what' the item does, I think it plays more value by being here then it does by being used or not being used. I think the decanter has caused quite the stir, and we can't agree on what to do with it. Which creates a major problem. Since we all can't agree on it, the decanter is next to worthless. Which is why I suggested someone else make the call.

In this post Naomi states that it will probably kill someone or do something bad for them. She still says that we should drink it.

So would lynching someone... we have no choice but to vote for someone... are you saying that it's a bad idea to lynch then?

No I did not say that its likely to be given to a townie. So, you're contradicting yourself in your statement. We don't know what it's affects are. Good or bad. Yet you assume I think it's bad for the town. Which really means you think it's bad for the town. I did not say 'in all probability' I said that it's likely to have a negative affect, but it is also likely that it can help us. And I do believe I stated that we don't know what these items do many times. I do believe that using it will help us, regardless of what the decanter's contents actually do.

In this post she says that it is not likely that it will be given to a townie. Remember that in the first quote she said that she someone should drink it because they volunteered?

Yes, I said he was the first person to volunteer... and that if the town thinks it should be used
a) volunteer
b) lynch suspect
I don't agree with the town randomly picking who drinks it... because we get no information about why it was used. An I did not say that it won't be a townie, now you're putting words in my mouth. I said that we don't know who it'll be used on.

Agree'd once again... seeing as I've said this once already

yes, I repeated the fact that I think it might be a good idea to pick someone else as an option. Only for everyone to have a different idea to go off of, not to make a contradiction with my earlier statement. I'm entitled to my opinion on the matter, as I have already stated. But I also have the right to say if I agree or disagree with the ideas someone else. Seeing as we've all done that, I don't understand how you find that scumie...

In this post, Naomi is agreeing that the volunteering system is anti-town. Yet, in the first post she suggests Xtoxm because he was a volunteer, supporting the volunteering system.

From these post, you can conclude that Naomi:
A. Supports the volunteering system
B. Is against the volunteering system
C. Thinks we should all be sheep to hohum
D. Wants an opinion, but does not want to be responsible for it
E. Admits that the item will probably be bad, yet wants us to drink it anyways

I missed several posts.

Also Naomi, Lamont asked.

By this point I've noticed you're putting words in my mouth and you seem like you're trying to steer the game in favor of your vote.
I find that scumie behavior...

[Lamont_Cranston]

What I think he is saying is that if we force it upon a L-1 scum then they would suicide rather than give us the info.

Well if they flip scum then who cares, we got scum D1, WOOT!

Also it has been advocated that the results could be expected to be visible. So even if they are actually scum they might be forced to reveal the effects regardless if they want to or not. But who cares, they're scum -- WOOHOO!

Also on your Naomi it is very clear she is very inconsistent and all over the map.

Does this mean she is scum though?

[Amished]

I think it's more likely to be harmful than beneficial, but since I have no idea whether or not it will be either (a slightly off center in the good/bad). Then if the decanter goes to an off center player, it's still in line with what I feel about the decanter.

Good effect: |-------------------\-----| Bad Effect
Town player | ------------------\-----| Scummy player

(Trying to show that they'll kinda line up.)

I'm trying to get the best of all worlds here. If it's harmful, it'll be on a more scummy player without immediately getting rid of a top lynch candidate and forcing us into an uncomfortable situation come deadline (if it goes that far). If it's helpful, it's then not going to the scummiest player out there and it's more likely that somebody *not* as scummy (therefore slightly townie) will then have the effect rather than the top lynch candidate.

@Nyx: My candidate probably wouldn't exactly line up with everybody else's though I'd be willing to take ~3rd-6th scummiest player in my view. I haven't made a list like that yet so I'd have to go through everybody. Also, we haven't heard a whole heck of a lot from some of our players which would be helpful in generating that list.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I think it's more likely to be harmful than beneficial, but since I have no idea whether or not it will be either (a slightly off center in the good/bad). Then if the decanter goes to an off center player, it's still in line with what I feel about the decanter.

Good effect: |-------------------\-----| Bad Effect
Town player | ------------------\-----| Scummy player

(Trying to show that they'll kinda line up.)

I'm trying to get the best of all worlds here. If it's harmful, it'll be on a more scummy player without immediately getting rid of a top lynch candidate and forcing us into an uncomfortable situation come deadline (if it goes that far). If it's helpful, it's then not going to the scummiest player out there and it's more likely that somebody *not* as scummy (therefore slightly townie) will then have the effect rather than the top lynch candidate.

@Nyx: My candidate probably wouldn't exactly line up with everybody else's though I'd be willing to take ~3rd-6th scummiest player in my view. I haven't made a list like that yet so I'd have to go through everybody. Also, we haven't heard a whole heck of a lot from some of our players which would be helpful in generating that list.

I don't really like how your view has changed so much. All of your previously stated reasons for nobody getting it have been thrown out the window and you are for complete & free forced distribution!

The only way I feel safe with that is if we have a town-wide vote on who gets it. At least that way the town will have the majority of the votes above the mafi/faction(s).

I can't believe I'm being forced to think this way But I have to see X's point -- these items MAY be necessary for us to balance the game.

At least the village will take the least amount of damage because we're doing it now.

[Lamont_Cranston]

I think it's more likely to be harmful than beneficial, but since I have no idea whether or not it will be either (a slightly off center in the good/bad). Then if the decanter goes to an off center player, it's still in line with what I feel about the decanter.

Good effect: |-------------------\-----| Bad Effect
Town player | ------------------\-----| Scummy player

(Trying to show that they'll kinda line up.)

I'm trying to get the best of all worlds here. If it's harmful, it'll be on a more scummy player without immediately getting rid of a top lynch candidate and forcing us into an uncomfortable situation come deadline (if it goes that far). If it's helpful, it's then not going to the scummiest player out there and it's more likely that somebody *not* as scummy (therefore slightly townie) will then have the effect rather than the top lynch candidate.

@Nyx: My candidate probably wouldn't exactly line up with everybody else's though I'd be willing to take ~3rd-6th scummiest player in my view. I haven't made a list like that yet so I'd have to go through everybody. Also, we haven't heard a whole heck of a lot from some of our players which would be helpful in generating that list.

I don't really like how your view has changed so much. All of your previously stated reasons for nobody getting it have been thrown out the window and you are for complete & free forced distribution!

The only way I feel safe with that is if we have a town-wide vote on who gets it. At least that way the town will have the majority of the votes above the mafi/faction(s).

I can't believe I'm being forced to think this way But I have to see X's point -- these items MAY be necessary for us to balance the game.

At least the village will take the least amount of damage because we're doing it now.

Btw, anything short of village wide vote as a strong scum tell here.

[Lamont_Cranston]

*is (sorry, at work)

[Alabaska J]

Which "noobie quiz" are you referring to, AJ?

the one you obviously haven't taken

vigging night 0 is a good idea

I don't vig n0.

and you are supposed to be the zenith of mafia strategy or something?

i really don't care if you vig n0 or not

[Alabaska J]

Well I don't see why someone's putting words in my mouth... I'm not looking to wash my hands of any misdeeds. I was stating how it's up to hohum to use it or not, seeing as hohum is gone right now no one knows what he intends to do at this point. But the last thing he said was that he wasn't willing to use it.

I'm not saying we shouldn't use it, I don't agree with him there. But there's a lot of other people saying that we should just let it go unused. I'm not sure that ignoring something like this is a good idea, even if we don't know what it might do. It'd be like advocating no lynch D1. We've got to take risks at some point. But the question is what risks do we take?

The way I see it we can pressure him to use it, and tell him what to do with it, but he doesn't have to do it. Not doing what we say to will probably lead to many votes for his lynching. Which is all I was really saying. The majority wants to use it and I would have to agree.
I just don't know about a random dice roll as the decision.

this is noncommittal in almost every way, in addition to the fact you have just parroted a lot of other people's statements. Naomi, if you were hohum, what would you do with the elixir?

[Pyromaniac]

I say let him make the decision because then he alone is responsible for the outcome. If we sit around bickering about whether or not to use it, we're all still just pointing a finger at each other.

But then again, pointing the finger might help us all... so if we all agree to use it, I think Xtoxm should drink it, seeing as he volunteered.

In the first part of the post she says that it should be entirely hohum's decision. This is incredible scummy, would it make sense to put the fate of the village into one random person's hands? No. We should not even attempt to control what he does with it. Yet in the second part of the post she says that Xtoxm should drink it, even though she should be in no way responsible for suggesting the idea. If you don't get it, then it is like suggesting a lynch and not being responsible if it kills you vig. Basically, she wants to have her cake and eat it too.

I didn't say we should let him have his way with every single point in this game. Simply that from where I stand, in THIS instance, I think it's the best choice.

Yes, I think it's probable to assume that it would likely kill someone. Though I'm sure there are an infinite number of other possibilities. Since we don't know what it is, it could be wine, or some kind of truth serum. Seeing as we don't 'what' the item does, I think it plays more value by being here then it does by being used or not being used. I think the decanter has caused quite the stir, and we can't agree on what to do with it. Which creates a major problem. Since we all can't agree on it, the decanter is next to worthless. Which is why I suggested someone else make the call.

In this post Naomi states that it will probably kill someone or do something bad for them. She still says that we should drink it.

So would lynching someone... we have no choice but to vote for someone... are you saying that it's a bad idea to lynch then?

Lynching is a necessity in order to win the game. There is no argument or evidence that these items will be anything but bad for he town.

No I did not say that its likely to be given to a townie. So, you're contradicting yourself in your statement. We don't know what it's affects are. Good or bad. Yet you assume I think it's bad for the town. Which really means you think it's bad for the town. I did not say 'in all probability' I said that it's likely to have a negative affect, but it is also likely that it can help us. And I do believe I stated that we don't know what these items do many times. I do believe that using it will help us, regardless of what the decanter's contents actually do.

In this post she says that it is not likely that it will be given to a townie. Remember that in the first quote she said that she someone should drink it because they volunteered?

Yes, I said he was the first person to volunteer... and that if the town thinks it should be used
a) volunteer
b) lynch suspect
I don't agree with the town randomly picking who drinks it... because we get no information about why it was used. An I did not say that it won't be a townie, now you're putting words in my mouth. I said that we don't know who it'll be used on.

I am not putting words into your mouth. I am making logical deductions.

Agree'd once again... seeing as I've said this once already

yes, I repeated the fact that I think it might be a good idea to pick someone else as an option. Only for everyone to have a different idea to go off of, not to make a contradiction with my earlier statement. I'm entitled to my opinion on the matter, as I have already stated. But I also have the right to say if I agree or disagree with the ideas someone else. Seeing as we've all done that, I don't understand how you find that scumie...

Your also have to be responsible for your own actions.

In this post, Naomi is agreeing that the volunteering system is anti-town. Yet, in the first post she suggests Xtoxm because he was a volunteer, supporting the volunteering system.

From these post, you can conclude that Naomi:
A. Supports the volunteering system
B. Is against the volunteering system
C. Thinks we should all be sheep to hohum
D. Wants an opinion, but does not want to be responsible for it
E. Admits that the item will probably be bad, yet wants us to drink it anyways

I missed several posts.

Also Naomi, Lamont asked.

By this point I've noticed you're putting words in my mouth and you seem like you're trying to steer the game in favor of your vote.
I find that scumie behavior...

[Alabaska J]

I think you three need to clarify this case against Naomi because I'm just not seeing it. For the most part she has held sane views. So far you are pulling two posts out and I haven't seen a really good explanation yet.

most of it makes sense, technically. the problem is, almost every time, someone else has said it first. she parrots people to the point of contradicting herself. she hasn't really added anything to this game other than being noncommittal and pasting again what others have said.

@Xtoxm, AJ:

Why are you totally silent on Pablo which is an OBVIOUS case?

look, I see where you are going with pablo, but i think you are looking too far into it. i could very easily seeing a townie making that statement. it takes a second to see why it is scummy, and i could easily see a townie who just didn't think his or her post through well enough making that statement. if you coupled it with more evidence of his scumminess, i would take it more seriously. but without anything accompanying it? i dunno, seems a little weak to form a whole case on by itself.

Btw, are you two on some kind of team together? Xtoxm seemed pretty interested in making sure you wouldn't be replaced AJ...

if we were on a team together, it wouldn't matter who played with Xtoxm, so he wouldn't try to stop a replacement. we are just buddies on this site, and he knows how i am.

[Pyromaniac]

What I think he is saying is that if we force it upon a L-1 scum then they would suicide rather than give us the info.

Well if they flip scum then who cares, we got scum D1, WOOT!

Also it has been advocated that the results could be expected to be visible. So even if they are actually scum they might be forced to reveal the effects regardless if they want to or not. But who cares, they're scum -- WOOHOO!

Also on your Naomi it is very clear she is very inconsistent and all over the map.

Does this mean she is scum though?

If that happens, then we would have been better off not lynching and ignoring the item. I don't really see that being one of the good scenarios.

[Alabaska J]

Tajo who is

usually

a pillar of good gameplay?

we have obviously had different experiences with tajo lol

¡te amo, mi amigo!

[Alabaska J]

Vote: Naomi

You've missed the point, the point being that its scummy AND stupid to use something if you don't know what it does.

agree with the vote, disagree COMPLETELY with the reason.

[Alabaska J]

i hate how the people who say no one should have the decanter b/c it might be bad for the person volunteering are the same as the people who say anyone volunteering to drink the decanter is probably scum who know what the decanter does and want the advantage it could give.

does no one else see the inherent contradiction here?

Blerg, I see this as a weak debate to start the game.

Listen people, there are people that regardless allignment, they will always choose to take risks.

And there are always people that regardless allignment, they will always choose to be conservative about risks.

I could bet that at this point there are both scum and town in the "omg, dont drink it" group and both town and scum in the "yey drink it" group

:goodposting:

[Lamont_Cranston]

I think you three need to clarify this case against Naomi because I'm just not seeing it. For the most part she has held sane views. So far you are pulling two posts out and I haven't seen a really good explanation yet.

most of it makes sense, technically. the problem is, almost every time, someone else has said it first. she parrots people to the point of contradicting herself. she hasn't really added anything to this game other than being noncommittal and pasting again what others have said.

I can make the same case for Naomi as you did for Pablo except the case against pablo is

stronger

.

There are also plenty of people that have contributed far less than Naomi and frankly all I've gotten from her so far is a village read that is easily led under pressure.

[Sironigous]

*Awaits Pyro case*
A lot of people agree with you... I think you're going over the top and you're a little bit pushy...

Fos Pyro

... Pushy?

He hasn't forced anyone to believe see his viewpoint. He's just been... right.

Right =/= Pushy

---

Other than that... if this game is made to be anti-town, I'll agree with what other people said before. It seems like a better action -

Just play it like an "everyone is a Vanilla Townie" game and avoid using these items we don't know the effects to.