The Manor: Chzo Mafia (Game Over!)

[Sajin]

In the off chance that scum know what this does, if we decide to random we should not let it be refused. Doing so lets the decision be made by the informed few. Bad idea. We are trying to avoid that by doing it randomly.

Finally a logical argument for not using it though. The history of the game theme. Thats the only decent argument brought up so far for not using it.

The argument that we should not use it because this game is hard for town is crap. The game is hard for town so we should not use any possible benefits at all then. Any town PRs should not use abilities cause this game is hard. Right.....

@Lamont I am still waiting for your answer to my question.

[Naomi_Saotome]

Xtoxm's rush to grab/drink/take the decanter is what has me worried
*snip*

Amished,
are you implying you think other people have inside information about the decanter or items in general?

---

Ok so..

I still really don't care who drinks the decanter...

---

I agree with Alaska.

this is pure speculation...
but what if it gave him an advantage? Say he drinks it, and then he can see everyone's roles...
Seeing as we don't know if he's scum or townie... how does that help?

I think its Hohum's decision whether to use it or not.

I say let him make the decision because then he alone is responsible for the outcome. If we sit around bickering about whether or not to use it, we're all still just pointing a finger at each other.

But then again, pointing the finger might help us all... so if we all agree to use it, I think Xtoxm should drink it, seeing as he volunteered.

wow

vote: Naomi

That's almost a complete relinquish of any responsibility for a misdeed. ;/

Vote: Naomi

Well I don't see why someone's putting words in my mouth...
I'm not looking to wash my hands of any misdeeds. I was stating how it's up to hohum to use it or not, seeing as hohum is gone right now no one knows what he intends to do at this point. But the last thing he said was that he wasn't willing to use it.

I'm not saying we shouldn't use it, I don't agree with him there. But there's a lot of other people saying that we should just let it go unused. I'm not sure that ignoring something like this is a good idea, even if we don't know what it might do. It'd be like advocating no lynch D1. We've got to take risks at some point. But the question is what risks do we take?

The way I see it we can pressure him to use it, and tell him what to do with it, but he doesn't have to do it. Not doing what we say to will probably lead to many votes for his lynching. Which is all I was really saying. The majority wants to use it and I would have to agree.
I just don't know about a random dice roll as the decision.


On a side note, I am indeed a girl. If eveyone wants to refer to me as a he... I'm good with that too!

[Amished]

People keep relating not using an unknown effect item to a no-lynch. I really want to see a solid reasonable connection between the two, because I feel that they're *nothing* alike.

[Devestation]

Let me put it this way, Amished. If hohum got a Devestation on the random result, you'd have to tie me down before I'd drink it.

STOP PRESS: Is there anything like a decanter full of red liquid in the Chzo books/movies/whatever that we could reference this item off of?

[Lamont_Cranston]

Vote Naomi

285 looks very much like newb-scum to me.

285 looks like pro-town to me.

Fos Xtoxm

you're kidding right

i can understand disagreeing that it is noobscum, but going as far as to call it pro-town is quite a reach

FoS: Lamont

I think you three need to clarify this case against Naomi because I'm just not seeing it. For the most part she has held sane views. So far you are pulling two posts out and I haven't seen a really good explanation yet.

@Xtoxm, AJ:

Why are you totally silent on Pablo which is an OBVIOUS case?

Btw, are you two on some kind of team together? Xtoxm seemed pretty interested in making sure you wouldn't be replaced AJ...

[Naomi_Saotome]

In my opinion the only relation to them is risk. Lynching narrows our probability's down makes it easier for us to find scum. With this decanter, and any future items... We're going to have to decide to use them or not. It's probably safe to assume that not all items found, are going to be good for the town. But we can't really make that call if we don't know what each item does. Do we therefore not use any item through out the game?

[Lamont_Cranston]

@Lamont I am still waiting for your answer to my question.

we need to generate discussion. how does everyone feel about no lynches?

Anyone who advocates NL Day 1 is advocating an advantage for the Mafi. Basically its like saying, "Let's pretend D1 never happened".

Why would you even think of advocating this?

[Devestation]

I suspect that if the person who gets the item also learns what it does, they'll use it.

[Amished]

@Devestation: I hold the same viewpoint, however you can't not drink it if Hohum decided to give it to you. So we're basically tying you down screaming. Now if this was a European mature movie, that might not be so bad. Unfortunately, we're in a manor with evil trying to kill us all.

I don't *think* that there's any sort of liquid that people really drink, or something found to drink other than the water that I talked about earlier. In the game, that was a puddle formed by like a leaky pipe or something, and nothing formal like anything in a cup. My project right now is to watch the playthroughs of them again and make sure though. If there is a precedent or anything to compare it to it'd probably be in the trilby's notes game (possibly in the flashback to the inn, which is where I'll be looking first). There's nothing that I can think of in the first one in the manor, nor in the future/space, nor in the underground complex that I know of at the moment.

@Naomi: So you think that using the decanter will narrow down our choices as scum, either by killing somebody, or doing some effect to make them pro-town. You've stated before that it really is up to Hohum how he uses it, but lynching/not lynching is purely an overall opinion by the town by nature. But even then, you're more of the opinion that it is a kill type mechanic, and therefore should go to somebody scummy looking. Another thing: who knows what the next item will be? Perhaps it'll be a shovel, or a painting, or a ring, or a twig, or whatever. The nature of the item can also give us clues, while having a mysterious liquid gives us nothing really to work on.

[Lamont_Cranston]

@MOD: The vote count is incorrect Nueva IS voting for Naomi.

Towards that end, I'm finding

Nueva

as a semi-lurker. He has like 5 posts this whole game and no content whatsoever.

Unofficial
Kratos

MOD: Please prod Kratos 9.9

Also join the list.

[Devestation]

I'm just going to read Chzo related Wikipedia articles and hope something shows up. I know its written by teenagers, but I figure Chzo movies are horror movies and therefore some teenager has probably watched em.

[Lamont_Cranston]

http://www.chefelf.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=6009

Is a list of walkthroughs for all 4 games. I didn't find any mention of a red liquid. There are the pills that make Trilby go to the shadow realm but thats it.

There is a bottle of wine but its not used except for some reason it has to be taken before Trilby can find the dead professor. Does anyone remember how this works from Trilby's Notes?

[Lamont_Cranston]

So you're ok with something that you don't care to speculate on (so therefore you admit that it *can* be very bad) and to allow that to go to somebody that potentially might balance the town side due to randomness? (

since even in the flavor/sign-ups the mod said that this game is probably not going to be that fair to the town

) I prefer not to take chances in a closed setup that's somewhat bastardized already, and probably balanced somewhat against the town, just judging from my knowledge of the x games a stranger series.

^^^ Wat he sed.

(THE ABOVE IS POST #318)

@Tajo:

What do you think of post #318?

I think its a reasonable argument but we should see this as gambling.

For reference, my first idea was to let the item go without using it on anyone. We avoid the randomness of the item and then concentrate on scumhunting ftw.

<<<< Town argument.

But then the point that prob items were considered in the balance of the game was made.

since even in the flavor/sign-ups the mod said that this game is probably not going to be that fair to the town

And then I started thinking. If KOC wanted us to use items (since its obvious that items are going to be a big part of this game)

he would start the game with a)an item that would not be so detrimental to the town or b)an item advantageous to the town.

since even in the flavor/sign-ups the mod said that this game is probably not going to be that fair to the town

My comments in green.

So WHO is outguessing the Mod here??

Does anyone else see this argument as so illogical coming from Tajo who is

usually

a pillar of good gameplay??

FoS Tajo

[Naomi_Saotome]

@Devestation: I hold the same viewpoint, however you can't not drink it if Hohum decided to give it to you. So we're basically tying you down screaming. Now if this was a European mature movie, that might not be so bad. Unfortunately, we're in a manor with evil trying to kill us all.

I don't *think* that there's any sort of liquid that people really drink, or something found to drink other than the water that I talked about earlier. In the game, that was a puddle formed by like a leaky pipe or something, and nothing formal like anything in a cup. My project right now is to watch the playthroughs of them again and make sure though. If there is a precedent or anything to compare it to it'd probably be in the trilby's notes game (possibly in the flashback to the inn, which is where I'll be looking first). There's nothing that I can think of in the first one in the manor, nor in the future/space, nor in the underground complex that I know of at the moment.

@Naomi: So you think that using the decanter will narrow down our choices as scum, either by killing somebody, or doing some effect to make them pro-town. You've stated before that it really is up to Hohum how he uses it, but lynching/not lynching is purely an overall opinion by the town by nature. But even then, you're more of the opinion that it is a kill type mechanic, and therefore should go to somebody scummy looking. Another thing: who knows what the next item will be? Perhaps it'll be a shovel, or a painting, or a ring, or a twig, or whatever. The nature of the item can also give us clues, while having a mysterious liquid gives us nothing really to work on.

Yes, I think it's probable to assume that it would likely kill someone. Though I'm sure there are an infinite number of other possibilities. Since we don't know what it is, it could be wine, or some kind of truth serum. Seeing as we don't 'what' the item does, I think it plays more value by being here then it does by being used or not being used. I think the decanter has caused quite the stir, and we can't agree on what to do with it. Which creates a major problem. Since we all can't agree on it, the decanter is next to worthless. Which is why I suggested someone else make the call.

[Devestation]

Vote: Naomi

You've missed the point, the point being that its scummy AND stupid to use something if you don't know what it does.

[Sironigous]

[quote="Naomi]I say let him make the decision because then he alone is responsible for the outcome.[/quote]

@Naomi - this is the part I'm voting you for.

Would you like to explain how this isn't a "wash[ing] of hands of any misdeeds"?

[Amished]

I'd have to check to make 100% sure, but the wine bottle was used to hold the water to keep Trilby "safe".

@Lamont: I have never played nor read a game of tajo's so I have nothing to compare his style here with anywhere else. I commented on the blue section, saying that it was outguessing the mod (in an indirect way) since I pointed out that the drops were randomized and therefore could not be guessed to be not *that* bad or whatever.

@Devestation in 464: Bingo!

@Sironigous: If hohum uses it on his own, how does Naomi have any misdeeds to wash her hands of in the first place? She isn't deciding what to do with the decanter so there's no "deed" ascribed to her. Therefore if it turns out bad, it won't be *her* misdeed, it'd be hohum's.

[Pyromaniac]

Yes, I think it's probable to assume that it would likely kill someone. Though I'm sure there are an infinite number of other possibilities. Since we don't know what it is, it could be wine, or some kind of truth serum. Seeing as we don't 'what' the item does, I think it plays more value by being here then it does by being used or not being used. I think the decanter has caused quite the stir, and we can't agree on what to do with it. Which creates a major problem. Since we all can't agree on it, the decanter is next to worthless. Which is why I suggested someone else make the call.

Let me get this straight. So, your saying that in all probability this will have a negative effect. And that it is likely it will be given to the town. So that there is a good chance that the town as a whole or individually will suffer because one of us drinks it. Yet, you are advocating that we should drink it. We do not know if we need these to win, chances are we don't.

Unvote, Vote: Naomi

[Xtoxm]

Well obviously we don't

need

them to win, that's not the point. They will improve our chances of winning.

[Pyromaniac]

@Sironigous: If hohum uses it on his own, how does Naomi have any misdeeds to wash her hands of in the first place? She isn't deciding what to do with the decanter so there's no "deed" ascribed to her. Therefore if it turns out bad, it won't be *her* misdeed, it'd be hohum's.

What is so suspicious is that Naomi wants to use it but, she does not want to be she responsible.

[Pyromaniac]

Well obviously we don't

need

them to win, that's not the point. They will improve our chances of winning.

I have yet to see any evidence, or even a satisfactory argument, of that. The supernatural in Chzo manor is never very friendly or pro-town.

[populartajo]

Blerg, I see this as a weak debate to start the game.

Listen people, there are people that regardless allignment, they will always choose to take risks.

And there are always people that regardless allignment, they will always choose to be conservative about risks.

I could bet that at this point there are both scum and town in the "omg, dont drink it" group and both town and scum in the "yey drink it" group

Also, where did the mod say that this game would be unfair to the town?

[Xtoxm]

There would be no point in including them if they had an overall nuetral or negative effect for the ones who control them.

7. Any items found during the day must be used BEFORE the lynch on that day. Items given/found during the night can be used at the player's discretion.

This means that there are going to be items going around at night. Not using day items is not going to prevent scum obtaining items. Day items are very much comparable to a lynch. They are weapons in the hands of the town, and are public knowledge. The mod has said this game requires more thought than usual game, items are clearly either one of these things, or the things he refers to. We are meant to figure what we think the item is going to do and use it accordingly. We are not going to get any infomation about these items, which are clearly a major part of this game given the fact the mod included it in the rules, and the way he worded it, if we let the first item go unused. The is the earliest stage of the game, no matter what it is, it will have the least long term impact than at any other stage of the game. This is the part where we want to figure out what items do, what to expect from them, and whether we should use the items that appear further down the line at more critical stages of the game.

[Amished]

@Tajo: read rule 13 again.

[Amished]

EBWOP:

Also @Tajo: Which is why I said not wanting to drink it is a null-tell. I can make inferences by who does want to drink it, but nothing that will be that solid, or explained solely by alignment.

@Xtoxm: I think a pretty large majority would say that this item is most likely detrimental, wouldn't you? If that's the case, what do you look for in a candidate to give it to if you had it?