Mini 761 - Game Over

[alexhans]

Sorry about the activity. I've Been busy too.

I don't think that that kind of question was counter-productive or anti-town as ryan suggested but I wish you would've at least come up with somekind of a conclusion about it.

And I am not misunderstanding the SK role. If anyone misunderstood it, it was the moderator of the game.

What game was it Ryan?

4) I don't know what to make of your wagon. I presume you're only asking this question because you think it's a load of crap and want me to acknowledge that.

OH. But if you're accusing Steph it might be relevant. Why did he vote right after Panzer?

I'd like Steph and Alex's thoughts on Lester.

I haven't seen a whole lot of interaction between them, even now.

Between who?
Lester-me?
Lester-Steph?

Lester voted me right after Panzer without explaining and after gave a vague explanation saying my playstyle. That's definetly an interaction.

I'm actually going to

Vote: Alexhans

too. His activities have been suspicious for a while now, and I'm going to post more about it in a little bit.

(sorry if this sounds too much like Panzer's post, lol)

Anyway, regarding AlexHans, I found while reading his posts that he seemed to have a scattershot way of attacking people and then latching on to whichever sticks with others.

Also, his insistent statement that Amished was the Vig/SK kill seemed odd to me and his back-track wasn't very good. It could be that he IS the Vig/SK, which we don't need to focus on right now(because they have a chance of getting scum too) but scum would have the same info.

This was Super Weak.
Lester hammered without explaining much.

Lester definitely seems like the most "convenient" lynch...and that worries me...the convenient one rarely seems to be the right one. I've learned that all too well in this particular game

QFT. I'm really worried about this too.

His quick acceptance of AshKetchum's explanation is a little more troubling to me. (But it's worth noting that Hoopla came in and replaced Ash with a whole different posting style, and all of a sudden she seems off of our collective scumdar.)

Don't worry. She is not out of mine.


Steph is my most town read.
Jazz has claimed Vig so I will leave her alone for now.
Ryan is a pro-town player that I can't really read. I won't gamble with his alignment.
Lester is scummy although I am wary of lynching him for the same reasons as Steph's.
I'm willing to lynch Hoopla or Zach too because DDD's death can't be a coincidence.

Lester is being prodded in other games too apparently.

[ryan2754]

Alex, I don't remember which game it was

[Zachrulez]

I guess we're waiting on Jazz now.

[alexhans]

Why are YOU waiting? You don't seem to be doing anything but wait on others Zach.

I've been kinda busy but I will ASAP do an analysys of the votes as I usually do. I just forgot about it due to Ryan's analysys. But I need to do my own to figure out what to do.

Right now I'm trying to decide wich of you 3 (Zach, Hoop, Lester) I'm going to vote.

I'd like to hear from lester. What he has to say to the recent cases made against him.

[Zachrulez]

Why are YOU waiting? You don't seem to be doing anything but wait on others Zach.

I've been kinda busy but I will ASAP do an analysys of the votes as I usually do. I just forgot about it due to Ryan's analysys. But I need to do my own to figure out what to do.

LOL... why are YOU waiting Zach? *Plants seeds to town that Zach's waiting has some sinister alterior motive.* Oh yeah... I've been doing the same thing... but I've been busy!

Heh heh heh... that just cracked me up.

Right now I'm trying to decide wich of you 3 (Zach, Hoop, Lester) I'm going to vote.

I'd like to hear from lester. What he has to say to the recent cases made against him.

Yeah, as far as I can tell, the crux of your case against me is the fact that DDD died, which is pretty weak, cause any of the other players could have killed him to plant that thought in the town's mind. (Let's not forget your twilight fight with him either... just sayin.)

My vote's on Lester, I've justified my reasoning for my vote on Lester... his responses and defenses have been few and far between and haven't addressed the concerns.

I asked you and Steph for your thoughts on Lester, because I don't understand why you guys are having bad feelings about his lynch.

[alexhans]

Lester definitely seems like the most "convenient" lynch...and that worries me...the convenient one rarely seems to be the right one. I've learned that all too well in this particular game

QFT. I'm really worried about this too.

Yeah, as far as I can tell, the crux of your case against me is the fact that DDD died, which is pretty weak, cause any of the other players could have killed him to plant that thought in the town's mind. (Let's not forget your twilight fight with him either... just sayin.)

Right... let's forget the fact that you put me at L-1 just for "pressure"... That you attacked Steph for the first thing he said today...
But you may be right... All I have are weak cases on everyone... At this point, I'm not trusting looking logically for scumtells that much but trying to "feel" who can be scum and what are his interactions to others.

I've been on the other side (scum in 714) of a situation like this where everybody was posting very little and waiting on others and it only helps scum. We need to discuss about things, we need to DO something or we will be lost...

So you saying that you're waiting on jazz when she stated that she is really busy due to personal problems is a bad idea.

[Zachrulez]

Well Jazz is supposed to be putting forth a case against Stephoscope... and I'm kinda interested in what she's going to say, mainly because I'm not convinced either you or Stephoscope are town.

You read Steph as town, so maybe you can explain why you think he's town.

[Stephoscope]

I think I have the right lynch for today now.

Hoopla has Zach in her top two potential scum combos. Which leads me to believe she and Zach aren't scumbuddies. (Given those possibilities, I'm not sure why her vote's on Lester.)

Hoopla mentions that Zach and I aren't in cahoots, given our conversations earlier...and it's been mentioned in the past that one of us is likely scum. I'm not.

Maybe this exchange between Alex and Zach is legitimate, maybe it's some big charade...I don't know. But Alex seems the more town of the two to me.

Zach's vote (as well as others') is on Lester. I just think that's too too easy...based on dictionary-definition scumtells, but ones that have explanations here. I think it's scum trying to win the game right here with the easy lynch.

And, let's be honest, I'm at serious risk of being nightkilled here, with our apparent nightkiller supposedly having a case on me. So I honestly think my vote should have some extra weight...especially considering that it's been acknowledged that Zach and I are almost definitely not both scum, but one of us very well may be. And it's not me.

Zach's a great player. He's not going to give scumminess away. You have to think more subtly.

Vote: Zachrulez

[Zachrulez]

I might put a little bit more into what you were saying if you had any substantial reasons to oppose a Lester lynch other than the belief that others have to be scum because the lynch is easy.

The problem with your logic is the fact that Lester SHOULD be the top lynch candidate, and the only reason it seems easy, is because his reasons for hammering Panzer are scummy as fuck.

Explain to me how he's town with logic, and not some paranoid delusion that he's got to be town because there just HAVE to be opportunistic scum waiting in the wings to secure his lynch.

The evidence against Lester looks pretty damn good from where I'm sitting. I can't see how you can look at it and go... well he's got 3 votes, so he must be town. That leap just absolutely perplexes me.

[Stephoscope]

I might put a little bit more into what you were saying if you had any substantial reasons to oppose a Lester lynch other than the belief that others have to be scum because the lynch is easy.

The problem with your logic is the fact that Lester SHOULD be the top lynch candidate, and the only reason it seems easy, is because his reasons for hammering Panzer are scummy as fuck.

I agree he "should" be the top lynch candidate. Just like Wall-E was, just like Panzerjager does. The difference is that I personally don't think Lester has been playing all that scummily...whereas scum WOULD want to keep cruising to victory with our previous mentality.

Explain to me how he's town with logic, and not some paranoid delusion that he's got to be town because there just HAVE to be opportunistic scum waiting in the wings to secure his lynch.

I don't think it's wrong to be paranoid when everyone who's died so far has been town. And, while it's noble of you to not be OMGUSing (I'll admit I am an OMGUS king), it's noteworthy that you're (probably intentionally) overlooking that the point of my post was not to assert that Lester is town, but to assert that you are in my opinion more likely to be scum. It is absolutely a possibility that Lester is scum, probably being bussed by a scumbuddy.

The evidence against Lester looks pretty damn good from where I'm sitting. I can't see how you can look at it and go... well he's got 3 votes, so he must be town. That leap just absolutely perplexes me.

Well, we'll have to agree to disagree on that. I think the "evidence" in this case is just the sort of thing that provides an easy lynch of a townie, with everyone being able to say afterward "oh, he did so-and-so, so we HAD to lynch him." All: how many more of them can we afford before scum win? Is it not clear that they have the upper hand, and we need to break routine starting now?

[Zachrulez]

Do you have a town explanation for why he decided to drop the hammer without ever dropping a clue that he was even close to suspicious of Panzer?

And yeah, I got that it's your opinion that I'm more likely to be scum. Your ground is really shaky because it's basically that I'm a villian with an evil beard plotting an easy lynch of a theoretically town Lester, and it's an argument that you can easily turn around on the other 2 people who are voting for Lester.

[Stephoscope]

Do you have a town explanation for why he decided to drop the hammer without ever dropping a clue that he was even close to suspicious of Panzer?

Sure--because Panzerjager was totally scummy and playing awfully, and Lester may have done what seemed like the smart thing to do without worrying about whether it made him scummy. I was absolutely convinced Panzer was scum, and I guess I'm assuming others were as well.

And yeah, I got that it's your opinion that I'm more likely to be scum. Your ground is really shaky because it's basically that I'm a villian with an evil beard plotting an easy lynch of a theoretically town Lester, and it's an argument that you can easily turn around on the other 2 people who are voting for Lester.

I think the evidence against you is stronger than that against Lester.

I feel like, if Lester were scum, he would have been more careful with the hammer. That's WIFOM, yes, but I haven't ever gotten the impression from Lester that he's playing especially carefully. I feel like the opportunistic votes based on his hammer are more likely to be scummy than Lester himself, and of the voters, I think you have the highest probability of being scum. Believe me, I'm not thinking about "easily turning around" my argument or any such thing.

[Zachrulez]

Please elaborate on this stronger evidence. And while you do that, I'll point out this line quoted from your post directly above your vote.

Zach's a great player. He's not going to give scumminess away. You have to think more subtly.

[Stephoscope]

Please elaborate on this stronger evidence. And while you do that, I'll point out this line quoted from your post directly above your vote.

Zach's a great player. He's not going to give scumminess away. You have to think more subtly.

I already elaborated on the evidence in 757. Additionally, I'll mention that Alex has a different rationale (which also has merit) for suspecting you, and that you're just in way too many "probably either this person is scum or this one is" pairs for comfort.

This in no way contradicts what you just quoted me on...you stayed away from major suspicion for most of the game, and I don't think I'm accusing you based on "typical" scumtells.

[Zachrulez]

Do you have a town explanation for why he decided to drop the hammer without ever dropping a clue that he was even close to suspicious of Panzer?

Sure--because Panzerjager was totally scummy and playing awfully, and Lester may have done what seemed like the smart thing to do without worrying about whether it made him scummy. I was absolutely convinced Panzer was scum, and I guess I'm assuming others were as well.

And yeah, I got that it's your opinion that I'm more likely to be scum. Your ground is really shaky because it's basically that I'm a villian with an evil beard plotting an easy lynch of a theoretically town Lester, and it's an argument that you can easily turn around on the other 2 people who are voting for Lester.

I think the evidence against you is stronger than that against Lester.

I feel like, if Lester were scum, he would have been more careful with the hammer. That's WIFOM, yes, but I haven't ever gotten the impression from Lester that he's playing especially carefully. I feel like the opportunistic votes based on his hammer are more likely to be scummy than Lester himself, and of the voters, I think you have the highest probability of being scum. Believe me, I'm not thinking about "easily turning around" my argument or any such thing.

Everyone discussed Panzer's scumminess, and stated their suspicions of him... everyone but Lester, who hammered out of nowhere.

That's not even the only point against Lester, I know I've made other points, I'm going to go have a look at those posts.

[Zachrulez]

Unvote Vote: LesterGroans

Page 5

Post 104: I noticed your observation, but will one word really make a difference.

Post 108: It seems to me like you're trying too hard to scumhunt Steph, perhaps a little too hard. AHA! It wasn't Amished who brought this up, it was Pitstop...

Post 113: Piggyback's Amished's vote and tosses one on Steph. Weak reasoning, a lot of which is echoed later by Amished. (scumhunting too hard being one of those things.)

A lot of this is based on Lester's predecessor, but I could add that upon joining the game that he indicated that he was unsure whether his abrasive read of Wall-E equaled scum, (Indicating that he MIGHT vote for him later if necessary.) and then retroactively going back to his abrasive read and saying that it didn't equal scum and that he hated the lynch.

Also with the points Panzer makes, it really doesn't look very good that Pitstop did all the things logged in my points, and then Lester came into the game and displayed a heavy interest in the night actions come day 2 over any actual scumhunting.

quote="Zachrulez"]

Vote: Lester

After having a look at Lester in iso, his hammer of Panzer was actually a lot sneakier than I originally thought.

He was suspicious of Ash, but that was easily resolved by one post by Ash explaining his playing style. (REALLY?!)

Suspicious of Alexhans. I don't know if it's just me, but posts 20 and 21 of Lester in iso don't seem like a very convicing case against Alex to me. There's even some argument in there that he's a vig.

Suspicions of Alex transition directly into a hammer vote of Panzer without any warning. Really? You didn't think these suspicions were worth mentioning BEFORE you hammered? You didn't think it was worthwhile to give anyone a chance to say anything at all? You didn't think it was worthwhile to give a little warning that you were going to hammer?

These suspicions you had of Panzer apparently just sat there in your mind for a long time, and you never felt like sharing them with the town in order to give them any indication that you were going to drop your vote on him... I don't find that to be all that pro-town at all. I find it scummy. Very scummy.[/quote]

Yeah, there's some more points.

[Zachrulez]

Also you're walking on pretty shaky ground when you accuse me of trying to engineer a easy lynch of Lester, when you and Alexhans are practically guilty of trying to do the same thing when you seized on her "softclaim" to tack 2 votes on her.

Was that not an attempt to get an easy lynch?

If you're going to say that what I'm doing is opportunistic and seizing on the easy, I don't see how your vote on Jazz isn't...

It IS on record that you pushed for the lynch of the claimed vigilante, the only role whose lynch could outright end the game in a scum victory after the end of this day phase.

I'm not saying it makes both you and Alex definitely scum, but it certainly makes it possible, even likely that one of you is... and that particular exchange was certainly interesting.

[Stephoscope]

Also you're walking on pretty shaky ground when you accuse me of trying to engineer a easy lynch of Lester, when you and Alexhans are practically guilty of trying to do the same thing when you seized on her "softclaim" to tack 2 votes on her.

Was that not an attempt to get an easy lynch?

If you're going to say that what I'm doing is opportunistic and seizing on the easy, I don't see how your vote on Jazz isn't...

It IS on record that you pushed for the lynch of the claimed vigilante, the only role whose lynch could outright end the game in a scum victory after the end of this day phase.

I'm not saying it makes both you and Alex definitely scum, but it certainly makes it possible, even likely that one of you is... and that particular exchange was certainly interesting.

I have found some of Jazzmyn's behavior to be peculiar and suspicious, but I believe I took my vote off of her once she finally claimed.

And I find it extremely interesting that you are claiming I went for an "easy" lynch, when before you were arguing that she had NOT softclaimed and that I had inappropriately blurted out an apparent power role slip. I think I've caught you in a little bit of hypocrisy here.

It's also noteworthy that you're trying to flip the "one of you must be scum" argument that's been used against you basically all game long, against Alex and myself now.

[Stephoscope]

Anyway, overall I just find your evidence on Lester unconvincing. I don't have a problem with the way his hammer went down, I even think it may be evidence of towniness...and when you take that out, there's not much there. The only thing that makes me hesitate a bit is the quick acceptance of Ash's explanation, but the longer this game goes on, the more it looks like his explanation was honest.

[alexhans]

Suspicious of Alexhans. I don't know if it's just me, but posts 20 and 21 of Lester in iso don't seem like a very convicing case against Alex to me. There's even some argument in there that he's a vig.

Unluckly you didn't say anything at that time and you put me at L-1 "For Pressure"... That's not scummy? What if someone hammered? You'd throw suspicion on the hammerer... right.

Suspicions of Alex transition directly into a hammer vote of Panzer without any warning. Really? You didn't think these suspicions were worth mentioning BEFORE you hammered?

This point is totally valid and makes lester very suspicious.

Also you're walking on pretty shaky ground when you accuse me of trying to engineer a easy lynch of Lester, when you and Alexhans are practically guilty of trying to do the same thing when you seized on her "softclaim" to tack 2 votes on her.

Was that not an attempt to get an easy lynch?

No Zach. Look... She softclaimed and we noticed... I said it, Steph said it... and you called steph for "rolefishing".
Hoop started talking about massclaim (wich is either anti-town or scummy because it looks like scum trying to make sure if there are PRs in the game) and Jazz said that everyone should claim before her...
That was amazingly wrong. Scummy. So I placed the second vote on her.
Steph had placed the first because she voted him without reasoning. She said she would explain why but never did (I don't care why, if she is busy or what. The fact is she never did).
Then hoopla raised some concern about her being lynched and I answered:

Not to worry Hoop... I've been checking if there were any more votes on her... That would be totally condemning... Anyway, I want her to claim. Definetly. Her ways are causing me big suspicion. She looks like Panzer when he waited like 2 days to make his claim, time to think.

If you're going to say that what I'm doing is opportunistic and seizing on the easy, I don't see how your vote on Jazz isn't...

While I'm not sure about Steph's vote on you... Steph's vote on Jazz was not a wrong move.

It IS on record that you pushed for the lynch of the claimed vigilante, the only role whose lynch could outright end the game in a scum victory after the end of this day phase.

Excuse me? When did he do that?
Why would lynching a vig will result in endgame?

I'm not saying it makes both you and Alex definitely scum, but it certainly makes it possible, even likely that one of you is... and that particular exchange was certainly interesting.

mmmm.... so suddenly we're scummy because we suspect you? Interesting... Pretty usual scummy reaction. What about lester? He is forgotten now?

And I stick to my thoughts... Should there be a vig... He should counter claim today.

[X]

Vote Count

LesterGroans:

(3) ryan2754, Zachrulez, Hoopla

Stephoscope:

(1) Jazzmyn

Zachrulez:

(1) Stephoscope

Not Voting

: (2) alexhans, LesterGroans

Vote Threshold

: 4

Happiness with Posting Level

:

Satisfied

Tentative Deadline

:

May 23, 2009

at

Noon, EDT

[Zachrulez]

Word twist. I didn't say one of you must be scum. I said it was possible, or likely one of you were. Should have said it was possible at least one of you are... I'm not taking the concept of both of you being scum too seriously because I personally think it would be way too obvious...

It's been pointed out how silly my argument that she hadn't soft claimed was. I'm pretty sure I conceded that argument... but yeah... considering my position, it's probably not the strongest argument coming from me... but hey, the facts are there anyway for everyone to look at.

I can't decide whether you're town tunneling on me or scum trying to make an argument either for my lynch, or an argument for Jazz's benefit to vig me instead of you.

I don't fear being vigged, there ain't a damn thing I can do about it if Jazz thinks I'm scummy enough to be killed... it is my personal opinion that the scum in this game though are very aware of their mortality, facing the possibility of losing most or all of their team in one sequence of day and night.

If I was scum, I wonder how I'd react to a "softclaim" of someone I thought was suspicious enough for a lynch, knowing that the only power role that's existence has been indicated is a vig. I think it would be pretty safe to say that I wouldn't need that person to claim at all, and that I'd already have a pretty good idea already that they are a vig or SK. I'd probably also be very worried if that particular person who soft claimed had me at the top of their suspect list.

[Zachrulez]

And Alex, if we have a vig and 3 scum, lynching the vig would certainly end the game as there would be no mechanism to kill scum at night.

I suppose there could be 2 scum, and we're really not at lylo... but that's not exactly something I'm all that keen to test...

[Zachrulez]

And I've had some suspicions of you and Steph for some time now actually... they're mostly eyebrow level "hmms" to your actions.

I still think Lester is most likely to be scum.

[Zachrulez]

Alexhans, Iso my posts, and read 80-82.

And please stop accusing me of voting for you yesterday simply for pressure, because it's an outright distortion of my position on you and why I was concerned about you in the last day phase.