Open 144 - Near-Vanilla - GAME OVER!

[hohum]

If you seriously think anyone is going to get anywhere near lynch because of their meta, then the joke is on you, my friend. That doesn't mean we're not allowed to sit here and talk about him while he sits idle refusing to contribute. You're trying to impede a conversation -- that's about all you're doing.

[dejkha]

I'm not saying a lynch is taking place, I'm saying a wagon of poor logic is - -

You mean the wagon that only consists of votes from the RVS? I agree with hohum, you seem to be getting defensive for no reason. And it's fine to talk about an "if" scenario, especially if that's all the discussion consists of. I personally think Zer0 should be lynched the day he claims scum, if he does. He's done it as both town and scum, so we can't leave it to chance.

[Zer0ph34r]

Oh man, I've heard the now term "Zer0 Wagon" in like every game I've been in. I would gladly participate in the game, but as I say in other games, th eonly thing I can see basing a vote on in the first day is how other people react to votes towards them. (Or if they claim scum, which would be questionable.)

[ODDin]

AndyTony - only votes on Zer0 are RVS votes. I talked about his actions in other games, but I didn't advocate lynching him (if he doesn't claim scum, that is).

[AndyTony]

you guys are continuously missing my point - - I'm not defending a lynching wagon, or any votes on him - - wagon of logic doesn't mean there are votes - - I'm saying I have a problem with planning what to do to someone based on their meta -

"If he claims scum we lynch him" doesn't jive with me - - circumstances will always be different, and I'm just voicing an opinion because I've seen it happen in the past and the town goes belly up for it - -

And I find hohum a little hypocritical - - he can't tell people to shut up about conversation topics and sing a different tune about wanting one later - - he can't be aggrevated by theory talk and then soley base our town conversation on another player's meta.

And now hohum, you're prosecuting him for not participating or contributing? I bet that's why you insist on posting so frequently (yet saying less) - - just because a lot of activity takes place in two real time days doesn't mean a lot has happened.

If Joe Somebody checks his mafiascum one every day at 10 pm, and shitloads happen in between, are you going to hold it against him?
----------------------

I'm not defending anyone, I'm not persecuting anyone - - what I am doing right now is saying we should have a clean fair game here - -

For example - What is everyone's opinion of Zero right now?

And don't say you haven't developed any because between preconceiving how to vote him in the future based on his meta, and suggesting he's not participating because activity occasionally picks up more than usual in a real time day.
-----------------------------

Here's a thought that doesn't instill biases:

@Zero - - Why did you claim scum in previous games? You said something to the effect of poor logic, can you elaborate?

----------------------------
Zero has claimed scum as scum, he's claimed scum as towny - - the result is inconclusive

Now if what was

behind

the claim has no inconsistency, there's something there, no?
------------------------------

I can relate 100% to the poor logic he talks about. I pretty much use this account to exercise and experiment sharing new ways of thinking and approaching.

[dejkha]

"If he claims scum we lynch him" doesn't jive with me - - circumstances will always be different,

and I'm just voicing an opinion because I've seen it happen in the past and the town goes belly up for it - -

How you figure? He's claimed scum as both townie and scum, so that means there's reason to believe him. You don't leave that to chance. Not unless he's only done it as a certain alignment, which he hasn't.

[Zer0ph34r]

I claimed because although I realize that this is a game made to be fun, I usually cannot stand when there are such obvious points of logic in a game and no one is seeing it but myself. Also because some people I hate so much in this game, that I wanted to ensure their loss, mafia or not. People always seem to try and say that I said one thing and then flip flop which I have never done and then try to pile up crap on me and then say I am scrambling when I am explaining myself.

[ODDin]

AndyTony, I don't see anything wrong with discussing meta. It's valid, fair and often useful information. Of course, it's not a tell per se - roles aren't distributed according to meta. But it does help you put on the correct lens when reading through someone's posts.
Of course, everything depends on context and the circumstances, but that doesn't mean meta is useless or that meta discussion gets us nowhere.

My opinion on Zer0? There's nothing even to get a read from at this point. Just a few neutral posts.

[ODDin]

Also, Zer0, just a suggestion - if you can't stand playing in a game and gets no fun to you, replace out.

[dejkha]

AndyTony, I don't see anything wrong with discussing meta. It's valid, fair and often useful information. Of course, it's not a tell per se - roles aren't distributed according to meta. But it does help you put on the correct lens when reading through someone's posts.
Of course, everything depends on context and the circumstances, but that doesn't mean meta is useless or that meta discussion gets us nowhere.

That is a very good way to put it.

[Zer0ph34r]

I've been told that before and I refuse. If my "team" can't win, I must screw someone over from the other "team". (Or my "team" depending on the person.)

[AA23]

ODDin - means a lot that we're at an understanding, I feel the exact same way - - the distinction I was trying to draw is that we shuld be cognizant of when it goes from something valid to discuss to some sort of plan, you know?

Dej - Because his meta states that he has claimed scum when he was, and was not such means that we cannot trust he is or is not - Hence we shouldn't just plan to lynch him willy nilly in the event of such.

Whe at I was suggesting is that we take it a step back from his meta on claiming and see if there is a consistency (unlike the consistency in honesty with his claims)

The consistency is that he claims when pressured by ignorance. Now - based on his meta, we can feel (hopefully) comfortable that none of us will be ignorant, and don't have to get worked up. (simply: the reason he claims in his meta are all the same, the outcomes were all different (his role) - so to use meta in its useful way, we can rightfully conclude that a suicide claim from him is preventable and forseeable (sp?) - )

Zero - - A lot of players get frustrated at other's ignorance because they buckle under pressure and have trouble articulating their thoughts -- we're not here to babysit your feelings if we're not getting you logic but I for one can relate to said frustration and won't be so ignorant.


Now there's about 4/5 people who have posted little to nothing as of yet.

Looks like we're moving out of the RVS, so I will

Unvote

for now.

What made you feel we were officially out? (I'm not being sarcastic)

[AndyTony]

Everyone, I have an alt I use for personal reasons and occasionally forget to sign out of it - I'll keep on top of it.

[dejkha]

You're AA? I thought he looked a little shady >_>

Well, now that I think of it, we wouldn't have to lynch him right away, but if he claimed scum and wasn't gone by lylo, then we'd have to get rid of him. I think the only person that would make him claim (that I've played, with which is about 5) is hohum, due to his aggressiveness and general demeaning attitude.

[AndyTony]

true - and honestly, my entire observation and mass posting was based on this

hohum: the point of the game is to annoy

scum

until they start dropping tells......
.....and, as AndyTony has (quite correctly) said, the point is not to lynch

people

, it's to lynch

scum

. Statistically, the chances of him being scum are lower than the chances of him being town. Thus, there's no reason I should want him lynched per se.

And the fact that I actually needed to explain this (especially after what AndyTony said) earns you a FoS.

FoS: hohum

I felt that right after I expressed the distinction between hunting scum and hunting lynches - - hohum understood that we now have a person (zero) that will crack under pressure whether he's scum or not - -

hohum actually states that if zero gets emotional, he will lynch him for it - - - we don't lynch for people being emotional (because townies can be so as well) we lynch for being scum - -

My observation is to stress that we should be careful about applying the pressure willy nilly. Hohum is aggressive, which in all fairness is just as emotional as Zero.

Calculation - - Intelligence - - Prosperity for town

It can totally happen

[Zer0ph34r]

Babysit my emotions? That's definitely what I came to this game for. And I don't give a crap whether you care about my feelings or whatever. Hence the false claims.

[Kdub]

Looks like we're moving out of the RVS, so I will

Unvote

for now.

What made you feel we were officially out? (I'm not being sarcastic)

Well, people are posting (I think) serious reasons behind their votes, as opposed to "he doesn't like Survivor" or similar reasons typical of a RVS. I take that as a sign that people are getting serious and trying to figure things all.

hohum actually states that if zero gets emotional, he will lynch him for it - - - we don't lynch for people being emotional (because townies can be so as well) we lynch for being scum - -

My observation is to stress that we should be careful about applying the pressure willy nilly. Hohum is aggressive, which in all fairness is just as emotional as Zero.

A player getting emotional is not a good reason to lynch them, but when they get emotional, they may be more likely to, as scum, inadvertently say things that will give them away and that we

can

lynch them for.

[Pitstop]

Lots happening already, nice to see. Though first of all hohum, you don't tell me when I should read back because you don't no my schedule .

Now, ODDin I believe it was made a good post on page 5, post 101. Good explanation, tbf.

I'm getting the vibe that hohum is a chicken with its head cut off. However, you're not jumping ship on your votes or anything, just the approach that you are taking to the game.

hohum is on the verge of earning my FoS, but I'll keep an eye on him for the next day or so and see what he does to decide whether or not he truly strikes me as scum.

I'm having a hard time putting my finger on what to make of AndyTony. I might make a case on him later to see if I notice anything particularly anti-town about his play thus far.

[AndyTony]

Looks like we're moving out of the RVS, so I will

Unvote

for now.

What made you feel we were officially out? (I'm not being sarcastic)

Well, people are posting (I think) serious reasons behind their votes, as opposed to "he doesn't like Survivor" or similar reasons typical of a RVS.

What would you say was the vote that brought us out of it, and what was the reasoning behind it? (also not sarcastic!)

A player getting emotional is not a good reason to lynch them, but when they get emotional, they may be more likely to, as scum, inadvertently say things that will give them away and that we

can

lynch them for.

Understandable - - We know that pushing this particular player will make them do something nonsensible (since it's happened as both scum and town) hence I'm pointing out that there are otherways to discover scumtells.

Scumtells can be in general actions, and yes, they can slip under pressure -- scum indeed slip under pressure - - however, this player tends to false claim under pressure - -

So we ask ourselves, do we want to approach him for a false claim, or a scumtell - - and we now know how best to get it. Scum will use his emotions against him for a potential mislynch, no? - - I'm suggesting we appreciate there are otherways to catch scum (part of that new thinking I was trying to spread - that I mentioned earlier) - world of possibilities, guys.
---------------------------
@Zero - if you read the rest of that very sentence I was telling you I could relate and want to be understanding to what now seems like variable temper, no need to get defensive

@Pitstop - - No worries about the tight schedule lol - - Is your handle based on your activity, though? If yes, I like it

[MadCrawdad]

Lots happening already, nice to see. Though first of all hohum, you don't tell me when I should read back because you don't no my schedule .

Now, ODDin I believe it was made a good post on page 5, post 101. Good explanation, tbf.

I'm getting the vibe that hohum is a chicken with its head cut off. However, you're not jumping ship on your votes or anything, just the approach that you are taking to the game.

hohum is on the verge of earning my FoS, but I'll keep an eye on him for the next day or so and see what he does to decide whether or not he truly strikes me as scum.

I'm having a hard time putting my finger on what to make of AndyTony. I might make a case on him later to see if I notice anything particularly anti-town about his play thus far.

Pitstop, below is the post from ODDin that you liked. What makes this such a good post that you would feel the need to comment on it? Also, you obviously

know

that the post is by ODDin (as you point out the page and post number), so why say that you 'believe' the post was by ODDin, as if you're trying to recall from memory?

*sigh*

Pressuring someone is when you actually attempt to get a lynch against said someone, accuse him much more seriously than the arguments would otherwise demand etc.
When adding a vote against someone in order to create a small bandwagon isn't pressure - I am not attempting to get a lynch against this someone, and I am not even making serious arguments most of the time. It's not done to get specifically

him

drop tells - it's done to make everyone drop tells and get the discussion going. See who else joins the wagon. Things like that.
Are you attempting to suggest that pressure tactics are the only possible tactics in a game?

Another thing: I'm not making excuses, I'm answering your questions. The fact alone that you phrase your questions such that my answers sound like what can otherwise pass for excuses is a different matter. What you're doing right now is exactly said pressure tactics - you're focusing your strength on me just for the sake of focusing it on someone. I can live with that.

That being said, nobody has contributed to this game much at this point, and I probably contributed more than most, so I haven't even got what to make excuses for.

Also, you might make a case on AndyTony later to see if you notice anything anti-town about his play thus far? Why wait?

[MadCrawdad]

So we ask ourselves, do we want to approach him for a false claim, or a scumtell - - and we now know how best to get it. Scum will use his emotions against him for a potential mislynch, no? - - I'm suggesting we appreciate there are otherways to catch scum (part of that new thinking I was trying to spread - that I mentioned earlier) - world of possibilities, guys.

AT, you seem to keep coming back to how to deal with a scum claim by zer0. Wouldn't it make more sense to wait and see if that actually happens, and handle it then?

[AndyTony]

lol please read my posts in full - that's literally what I've been saying.

I said we shouldn't plan to condemn him if he lives up to his meta because "Every circumstance is different"

Anything else said has related to scumhunting, not lynching.

In looking at the profile on wiki, it seems like claiming to be scum has become his shtick....IMO, it makes it kind of a null tell.

I'm agreeing it's a null tell, and that it would be harmful to the town to chase and lynch a null tell let alone make statements to suggest we should lynch immediately if he gives us the suicide claim.

All circumstances are different

[MadCrawdad]

Nobody's chasing any tell at this point, so why dwell on it? Watch how the guy plays the game and then react to it. You keep coming back to it...kind of like picking at a scab, trying to make it rupture. I'm starting to wonder if you're not trying to help

make

it happen...

[AndyTony]

--I haven't said anyone has chased a tell
--The only thing I've dwelled on is that every circumstance is different and we should play it out

*hohum's remark about exploiting Zero's emotions suggested it needed mentioning at how that could hurt the town.

[MadCrawdad]

--I haven't said anyone has chased a tell
--The only thing I've dwelled on is that every circumstance is different and we should play it out

*hohum's remark about exploiting Zero's emotions suggested it needed mentioning at how that could hurt the town.

Mentioning hohum's remark, fine. You've also tried to jump in deeper than that...here in post 130. Where are you going with that?

I'm not defending anyone, I'm not persecuting anyone - - what I am doing right now is saying we should have a clean fair game here - -

For example - What is everyone's opinion of Zero right now?

And don't say you haven't developed any because between preconceiving how to vote him in the future based on his meta, and suggesting he's not participating because activity occasionally picks up more than usual in a real time day.