Mini 761 - Game Over

[ryan2754]

I personally do not like Steph's request of discussion such as this. I feel it often helps scum moreso than town, and such speculation is unnecessary.

[alexhans]

Hi... I've been re-reading since the beginning of day 3 but today I was ill and didn't do shit. Skipped work. Skipped college. Anyway, I guess that maybe tomorrow night I can post my questions and opinions after i finish re-reading.

I've written the answer to Steph's questions. If you want I can go first.

[LesterGroans]

I can answer.

Were I the SK and Jazz claimed Vig I would probably counter claim as Vig. Hopefully this would lead to Jazz being lynched and me being able to ride it out as town-alligned and be the last one standing.

Now, were I vig, I don't know. You'd risk people believe you to be lying and a mislynch happening. Also, keeping quiet would give you a perfect scum target at night, as scum would probably be the only ones to claim Vig besides the actualy vig.

[alexhans]

My turn:

If you were a vigilante in this game, and Jazzmyn claimed vigilante (almost certainly meaning that she's scum, as far as I can fathom), would you say something right now in the game? What would you say?

Obviously I would counter claim! Right now! I'd say the whole truth and no more than the truth. Who I targetted and why. Then I look for info on the fake vig to find her partner.

How about if you were a serial killer, and Jazzmyn claimed vigilante?

I don't see the utility of this but I guess I would shut the fuck up. I can kill her tonight anyway if I think she is scum and if she is not I need to focus on killing scum because they're my enemies right now.

@Steph: Why that order?

[ryan2754]

My turn:

If you were a vigilante in this game, and Jazzmyn claimed vigilante (almost certainly meaning that she's scum, as far as I can fathom), would you say something right now in the game? What would you say?

Obviously I would counter claim! Right now! I'd say the whole truth and no more than the truth. Who I targetted and why. Then I look for info on the fake vig to find her partner.

How about if you were a serial killer, and Jazzmyn claimed vigilante?

I don't see the utility of this but I guess I would shut the fuck up. I can kill her tonight anyway if I think she is scum and if she is not I need to focus on killing scum because they're my enemies right now.

@Steph: Why that order?

Why would you kill Jazz if you were an SK and believe her to be scum? That goes completely against your win condition. Scum are not your enemies if you are an SK.

[Hoopla]

If I were really a vig it would almost certainly make her scum, so I'd play along and vig her the next night.

[alexhans]

Why would you kill Jazz if you were an SK and believe her to be scum? That goes completely against your win condition. Scum are not your enemies if you are an SK.

Wrong. At this point scum ARE the enemies of an SK. There are 2 or 3 scum right now. So killing one would be a good move because they are a threat to the balance that the SK needs between town and scum, if one is stronger than the other it hurts the SK. Assuming we lynch town today that leaves 2-3/6 scum. SO an SK should totally kill her.

@Hoop: I don't think I'd wait that long and trust my luck. Suppose someone else believes her and she is protected or you are blocked somehow. Counterclaiming the next day is definetly gonna look odd.

[Hoopla]

@Hoop: I don't think I'd wait that long and trust my luck. Suppose someone else believes her and she is protected or you are blocked somehow. Counterclaiming the next day is definetly gonna look odd.

But then I have the chance of not outting myself (and using my ability the next night), and of course if I placed trust in her claim, she'd probably keep me alive if she were really scum. I don't think she'd likely get docced.

The benefits of not counterclaiming and playing it this way outweigh counterclaiming and lynching one of us.

--

Of course, this is a silly hypothetical that I don't see the point in.

[alexhans]

mmm... I don't know... I guess if I have the chance I grab it... but I'd have to try both and see.

But imagine if a roleblocker blocks scum when a doc protects your kill and the sk kils the doc while the watcher watchs himself and is tracked by the mafia tracker who thinks he is crazy because he is seeing someone revisit himself and then suddenly there are too many roles for a mini normal, well not really, because there have been 5 VT deaths already, but this is just a joke because as you say discussing over what we might do in a hypothetical situation is hilarious.
Give me a W
Give me a I
you know what comes next!
F, O, M
WIFOM WIFOM!

[ryan2754]

But if you are an SK, alex, don't you win with scum? That's what I have always been under the impression of...

[Zachrulez]

No Ryan, a serial killer has a separate win condition than the scum. They have to be the only one left alive at the end of the game, eliminating both the scum and the town.

[X]

Vote Count

LesterGroans:

(2) ryan2754, Zachrulez

Stephoscope:

(1) Jazzmyn

Not Voting

: (4) alexhans, Hoopla, LesterGroans, Stephoscope

Vote Threshold

: 4

Happiness with Posting Level

:

Neutral

[ryan2754]

Wow, that's interesting. Considering I have been an SK before and I could win with scum...

[Stephoscope]

Thanks everyone for humoring me. I think I'm just waiting on Zach now (who indicated he would participate when it was his turn).

[Zachrulez]

Oh, it totally skipped my mind that it was my turn.

Hoopla already gave pretty much the same answer I would though.

What's the point in counterclaiming when I can simply use my vig power against her as she's pretty much certainly scum?

[alexhans]

Wow, that's interesting. Considering I have been an SK before and I could win with scum...

That's not an SK... that's a traitor...

Serial Killer Wiki

When was that game Ryan? Can you link us to it?

I haven't had much time to read this game or anything. But I guess I'll be less busy tomorrow night. See you then.

SOME NOTES I WAS MAKING (you can answer them now):

@Hoopla:
Would you care to comment on these now?
1) Ash's case on DDD.
2) The case against Ash.
3) Lester's hammer and Panzer's Waggon.
4) My waggon when I was put to L-1.
5) Panzer's claim.

The fact Panzer was lying about his claim doesn't incriminate or clear Steph, it merely confirms he didn't target Amished on N1. I'm not going to go into whether or not it was a stupid thing to do on Panzer's part, but I find the way players have reacted to his claim to be interesting. I'll get to that soon.

Can you get to this, please?

[Stephoscope]

OK, thanks to everyone who participated in my little thought experiment.

I proposed it for a few different reasons:

1. I think Jazzmyn's behavior has been questionable in quite a few situations. I have brought up most of them as they came along (active lurking, softclaiming, saying others should roleclaim before her when she was the one who hinted at and then volunteered hers first, her vote for me when I stated I wasn't willing to do so, etc.) I will also mention that her "analyzing wagons" in 634 seems like a mighty convenient way to talk about how everyone but her might be scum.

2. While I admit a hypothetical fakeclaim (and the longer she went without claiming, the more I thought we'd be in for one) would be quite courageous, given that we're all fairly certain there's a Vig or SK out there...still, if she's really not one, someone else is. So the answers to my question were:

Lester: Counter-claim as an SK, unsure if Vig. I wanted Lester to go first, since he has the most votes on him at the moment, with some justification behind them given that hammering.

Alex: Wait and then nightkill if SK, counter-claim immediately as Vig.

Ryan: Didn't really provide an answer. Said something like this would often help scum more than town, which I would appreciate an explanation of. Also apparently misunderstood the SK role.

Hoopla: Doesn't know what she would do as an SK, but would wait and nightkill as a Vig.

Zach: Says he was going to say the same thing as Hoopla...despite the fact that Hoopla really only answered half the question.

Now, I wasn't rolefishing for the "real" Vig (or the "real" SK for that matter, even though that would be a good thing), if there is one, to reveal themselves...rather, if there were any kind of consensus as to what someone in that situation would do, it would be good to understand it in order to evaluate the chances of a fakeclaim. But I'm not sure we got any kind of consensus at all.

3. But--this little experiment could be used for scumhunting as well. Everyone but Jazzmyn and myself participated, and it's a virtual certainty that there is at least one scum, likely more, in the five who answered. And insisting on order, while the exact order wasn't totally critical, meant that participants' hands were sort of forced--they were expected to say something when it was their turn.

Did we get anything out of it? That's for you all to decide, but (although I'm not a particularly experienced player) I don't see how activities like this can be counter-productive.

[ryan2754]

Steph, I have always been in the boat such role speculation (outside of claims and such) is strictly anti-town business. Sure, it gives the town some information in the way of breadcrumbing, but I feel as though scum can use this more to their advantage, manipulate it, and spit something else out, and use the breadcrumbing information that people supplied you with to NK a PR.


And I am not misunderstanding the SK role. If anyone misunderstood it, it was the moderator of the game.

[X]

Vote Count

LesterGroans:

(2) ryan2754, Zachrulez

Stephoscope:

(1) Jazzmyn

Not Voting

: (4) alexhans, Hoopla, LesterGroans, Stephoscope

Vote Threshold

: 4

Happiness with Posting Level

:

ANGRY

Tentative Deadline

:

May 23, 2009

at

Noon, EDT

Prodding Jazzmyn.

[Stephoscope]

Steph, I have always been in the boat such role speculation (outside of claims and such) is strictly anti-town business. Sure, it gives the town some information in the way of breadcrumbing, but I feel as though scum can use this more to their advantage, manipulate it, and spit something else out, and use the breadcrumbing information that people supplied you with to NK a PR.


And I am not misunderstanding the SK role. If anyone misunderstood it, it was the moderator of the game.

Be specific. Tell me exactly what scum learned.

[Hoopla]

Hi alex, here are some answers;

1) By Ash's 'case' I presume you mean the following quote, which is all I could find;

Vote Danny

Reasoning--

After reading through his post, he seems to bring up very little speculation, and instead, decides to criticize other people, and discuss things that are not really helping find scum. Yet he doesn't mind throwing his vote down.

As for my play, I'm not the kind of person that comes in and delivers huge post, I'm here every day and I'm always reading, and I make my comments with something arouses my suspicion, not on every thing that is being brought up, but if I'm asked I'll give my input.

You seriously want my opinion on this? It's just a bunch of words and generic tells that don't indicate anything, aka crap. I don't see the point in you caring when DDD is dead now anyway.

2) You're going to have to link me to specific posts you want me to retort to. In the mean time have a vague answer, that doesn't justify his actions, but seems reasonable; Ash lurked a lot throughout the game and either didn't have time or didn't care.

3) Panzer's wagon was deserved for the way he played - it's hard to determine if scum really needed to push it at all. If I was in the game at that time I know I'd be pushing his lynch. Of all the votes on Panzer's wagon, Lester's is the worst. He seemed quite keen to get that mislynch.

4) I don't know what to make of your wagon. I presume you're only asking this question because you think it's a load of crap and want me to acknowledge that.

5) Panzer's claim was retarded - again, I don't know what you want me to say for this.

The fact Panzer was lying about his claim doesn't incriminate or clear Steph, it merely confirms he didn't target Amished on N1. I'm not going to go into whether or not it was a stupid thing to do on Panzer's part, but I find the way players have reacted to his claim to be interesting. I'll get to that soon.

Can you get to this, please?

Initially I thought Panzer's watcher claim would be someone scum want to get rid of more than town - and there could have been higher chance the wagon was scum driven. But rereading the way he played I don't blame the town at all for lynching him. As I've said already the worst vote is Lester's and it's who I want to lynch today.

--

Vote: Lester Groans

I think Jazz should try and do what she thinks is best for the town. It's even in the SK's interest to kill scum at this stage, so I'd rather let her have ago and have her justify her reasons tomorrow if she's still alive.

[Zachrulez]

I'd like Steph and Alex's thoughts on Lester.

I haven't seen a whole lot of interaction between them, even now.

[Stephoscope]

I'd like Steph and Alex's thoughts on Lester.

I haven't seen a whole lot of interaction between them, even now.

Lester definitely seems like the most "convenient" lynch...and that worries me...the convenient one rarely seems to be the right one. I've learned that all too well in this particular game. Lester's "quick" hammer can be considered a scumtell...but Panzerjager was clearly deserving, and Lester has a point that he had already declined once when Panzerjager was at L-1. I'm not sure what else we would have gleaned, had Panzerjager been around longer. I know I sure would have been jumping up and down calling for his lynch.

His quick acceptance of AshKetchum's explanation is a little more troubling to me. (But it's worth noting that Hoopla came in and replaced Ash with a whole different posting style, and all of a sudden she seems off of our collective scumdar.)

I see the rationale for the votes against Lester...but it's not a slam-dunk to me so far, and I'm in no hurry.

[Jazzmyn]

Hello, all

I've been prodded, and I've explained the following in greater detail to the game moderator, but the short version is that I have very limited access at the moment, and that is going to continue until at least tomorrow night, and possibly until Friday night.

It is work related and I have no control over it. Depending what happens tomorrow morning, I

may

be able to get back into it on Wednesday night, but if it goes a different way, I will not be able to do so until Friday night.

I realize that the timing of this sucks, and I sincerely apologize to the players and to the mod, but it is completely beyond my control, unfortunately.

Regards,
Jazz

[X]

Vote Count

LesterGroans:

(3) ryan2754, Zachrulez, Hoopla

Stephoscope:

(1) Jazzmyn

Not Voting

: (3) alexhans, LesterGroans, Stephoscope

Vote Threshold

: 4

Happiness with Posting Level

:

FRUSTRATED

Tentative Deadline

:

May 23, 2009

at

Noon, EDT

Prodding LesterGroans.