Open 147: Vengeful 5P - Game Over before 792

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/confirm

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Vote:ODDin

because I am in another game with him.

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I think it's odd the way Charter asked for an Empking lynch and ODDin provided a vote, but then unvotes in reaction when Charter votes also as would be expected. Wouldn't you expect Charter to follow through with his own plan and therfeore put someone at L-1, Oddin?

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Charter declares ODDin protown because he didn't want L-1 on myself oas well as empking. It seems too obvious to expect scum to change their opinion after only a few posts, especially when you make it clear that you are testing him, Charter. I just think that whole ODDin-Charter interaction looks contrived to me.

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Frankly, were an observer from the side, I too would think Charter and myself are a team. Also, even if I were scum, I would most likely get Charter's point and act the way I acted.
Alas, all I can say in my defence is "I'm not scum", which doesn't really get us anywhere.

At least we've both recognized charter's behavior as suspicious.

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Yeah but I don't think not changing your reaction is a towntell. For scum to make such a slip seems unlikely, yet you are "relatively sure" ODDin isn't mafia because he avoids such a stupid mistake.

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It just seemed like an odd statement for someone with as much experience as you.

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What is the nature of your relationship? Charter you obviously have something against Empking but you should explain your unwillingness to speak to him.

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Well that looks more like distancing to me.

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unvote, Vote:charter

I also think you're acting too defensive. The way you voted Empking was odd

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Oh, sorry. This game is full of testosterone agh!

I've never played in a setup like this (this is one of my first games) so I'm not sure what to think of the early L-1s or the fact we're possibly nearing a lynch on Page 2.

Youre being a too defensive here. If you don't tell us what you think, you're really just lurking.

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I'm a confused little bunny!

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Lol, sorry, wrong game. I got it confused because Zwet is in the other.

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Well, in other mafia games, L-1s on Page 1 or 2 usually aren't acceptable. I guess it would be normal in a two player game though.

You seem quiet. You don't have any opinion on the interactions of the past 2 pages besides that it's "acceptable"?

[Paradoxombie]

It seems everyone else was edgy about the L-1s too. I don't know if this will be a temporary thing or if this will continue the entire game.

But you don't seem at all interested in Charter's interaction with Empking and ODDin. They are both very strange in my opinion, so you ignoring them except as worthy of concern seems abnormal.

unvote, vote:Khamisa

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http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 73#1476373
Here is one, CKD shares his feelings post game.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9432
Another game I've played in with Empking

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8937
Oh wow, ANOTHER game.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=8707
Flaked out of this one...

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9557
Another game I've played in with you.

There's probably more too, but I just stopped looking.
So, basically, your claim of never remembering to play in a game with me is complete and total bullshit for the sole reason of undermining me with crap attacks because you are scum and you need to try something.

My vote isn't going to move unless I'm able to find your partner and determine which of you two is the GF.

Personally I find your claim of having nothing against Empking bullshit. I think your case is personal more than logical because it has so quickly accelerated. If you know his playstyle is so disfavored, why do you assume he's scum based on it? Shouldn't you of all people expect this after all your experiences with him? This looks more to me like scum knowing a player will appear scummy because of their playstyle, but jumping on too early hoping a bandwagon will form.

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It looks to me as if charter is distancing from empking.

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Mod, a prod on Khamisa?

she seems to have just drifted away as attention fell elsewhere. I fear replacement will be necessary.

It looks to me as if charter is distancing from empking.

You're more than welcome to think this. Obviously I am not the GF, so go ahead and vote for Empking.

If we're distancing you'd definately be the GF.

Interesting. Charter, you say you're not the Godfather. This implies that you know your behavior is risky and/or strange. That seems odd for a townie in such a perilous game.

Empking, you say charter is the GF. This implies the same for you. That you think you are acting in an attention getting way, allowing yourself to be lynched for charter.

Stranger and stranger. When I suggested they were distancing, I didn't feel particularly compelled in that direction, but these comments make it seems more likely.

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Mod, a prod on Khamisa?

she seems to have just drifted away as attention fell elsewhere. I fear replacement will be necessary.

It looks to me as if charter is distancing from empking.

You're more than welcome to think this. Obviously I am not the GF, so go ahead and vote for Empking.

If we're distancing you'd definately be the GF.

Interesting. Charter, you say you're not the Godfather. This implies that you know your behavior is risky and/or strange. That seems odd for a townie in such a perilous game.

Empking, you say charter is the GF. This implies the same for you. That you think you are acting in an attention getting way, allowing yourself to be lynched for charter.

No its just that Charter is more persuasive than me.

But that at least suggest that YOU find his arguments persuasive or compelling. I think that is more common for scum.

[Paradoxombie]

Mod, a prod on Khamisa?

she seems to have just drifted away as attention fell elsewhere. I fear replacement will be necessary.

It looks to me as if charter is distancing from empking.

You're more than welcome to think this. Obviously I am not the GF, so go ahead and vote for Empking.

If we're distancing you'd definately be the GF.

Interesting. Charter, you say you're not the Godfather. This implies that you know your behavior is risky and/or strange. That seems odd for a townie in such a perilous game.

Empking, you say charter is the GF. This implies the same for you. That you think you are acting in an attention getting way, allowing yourself to be lynched for charter.

No its just that Charter is more persuasive than me.

But that at least suggest that YOU find his arguments persuasive or compelling. I think that is more common for scum.

When I've seen him play in other games they are compelling. Not in this game though. (Probably because he's wrong and he knows it.)

How can you have a meta on a player you don't even remember?

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Empking, you may be alot more active than Khamisa, but you've been pretty silent about your own opinions. You OMGUS voted charter but besides that, have done little but defend yourself.

unvote, vote:Empking

[Paradoxombie]

Empking, you may be alot more active than Khamisa, but you've been pretty silent about your own opinions. You OMGUS voted charter but besides that, have done little but defend yourself.

unvote, vote:Empking

You think I should defend myself against a random vote? And that I'm scum for not doing so?

No, I think you're scum because that's almost all you've done.

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Empking, you may be alot more active than Khamisa, but you've been pretty silent about your own opinions. You OMGUS voted charter but besides that, have done little but defend yourself.

unvote, vote:Empking

You think I should defend myself against a random vote? And that I'm scum for not doing so?

No, I think you're scum because that's almost all you've done.

So I didn't ask the questions/respond to Charter that caused Charter to act overdefensive?

Charter claims to have become overdefensive because of your history together.

Who do you think we should lynch, Empking?

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I don't like a Khamisa lynch because if she's a townie, I don't trust her to make the choice of who gets instakilled. I mean she hasn't even answered who she find suspicious yet

I don't find ODDin particularly scummy as of now.

So that leaves charter or Empking. I don't find Empking particularly scummy. He's done very little overall, but all of his actions seem genuine.

Charter seems the most scummy to me. His plays look contrived, but it's possible charter always plays this way. I think it was scummy to declare ODDin townie and tunnel on Empking.

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There's still some time before deadline.

Khamisa who do you plan to vote at deadline? Same to Empking and ODDin.

[Paradoxombie]

Alright, I don't think we're gonna gain much more before deadline. Everyone has stated how they feel.

Unvote, Vote: Charter

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charter, you've far exceeded your allowance of a "bah!" post. But I must say it's odd you would suddenly suspect me after barely mentioning me all day. Maybe if you had put as much effort into observing everyone instead of tunneling on Empking all day you wouldn't have been mislynched. Assuming you are a townie. Saying

Kill: Empking

doesn't seem like a scum ploy but there was confusion about the hammer for some reason and since the dead aren't even allowed to post I'd guess it's a meaningless act.

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Rules clearly say we can talk during twilight. Para moves right up to Empking's buddy based on that.

The rules also state to stop posting if when you die. I guess it depends on whether the lynch is considered to happen at the hammer or when the mod locks the topic.

I don't really care though, post as much as you want. I'm more bothered that you didn't defend your suspicion of me. The fact is, I lynched you because you never explained why you jumped on Empking from the start. Yet you continue to not explain your suspicions. If you really are town, you should at least TRY to explain your reasoning if you really want me lynched.

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Um...Para, do you not understand the workings of this game? When a Vengeful Townie dies, they get to choose another player to kill. So if charter is a vengeful, he was employing it by saying Kill:Empking. Also:

Maybe if you had put as much effort into observing everyone instead of tunneling on Empking all day you wouldn't have been mislynched

.

Assuming you are a townie.

I emphasized the period because it looks like you at first concocted that sentence as you knew of course he was a townie because you are scum, and then added on the next sentence to cover yourself.

I don't see anywhere in the rules where it tells you to post in game, making me think it'd be a pm.

If he says that he's a townie now that he's dead, I believe him. There's no reason to question it especially since we're about to find out anyway.

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If Empking is scum I'll be looking at Khamisa next. If Charter is scum, then maybe Empking

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Yeah Charter AND Empking should be dead, I'm fairly sure that's how this gametype works.

Okay I'm gonna try to defend myself against charter's "argument" but I've had to make it myself basically because I don't feel he really has. I voted a townie and didin't find empking particularly scummy But ODDin has done the same things. At least one of us must be town, and possibly both. I'm assuming my vote his is reason for suspecting me because it was when I voted that he seemed to start suspecting me.

I agree with you ODDin, that Khamisa's playstyle is the reason for her remoteness from the game. One thing I still see against her is her unwillingness to vote charter. Since charter was a townie and was gonna kill the goon, it might make sense to be careful. It was also the first time she was actually motivated to present an opinion since she'd last fos'd charter and Empking. And she never explained her vote besides as a gut feeling. I definitely think choosing Empking as scum over charter a little too good of a gut feeling.

I can 100% absolutely promise Para is Empking's partner. Believe it or not, it's the truth! Goodbye cruel world!

You're wrong and it makes me think you just got Empking by luck.

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So, Khamisa, what are you thinking?

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This is extremely suspicious, seeing how he was voting for charter yet unhappy to see his lynch.That makes absolutely no sense.

It really makes no sense to me why this makes no sense to you. This has been said after charter said he's town during twilight. I saw no reason to think he's lying during the twilight of his own lynch. As far as I was concerned, it was as if zwet said he's town.
If he were scum, I'm guessing he'd say "bah, go scum" during the twilight - it's not like it matters at that point.

Okay look:

Is that a lynch?

Kill Empking

if it is.

italicized for

emphasis

. Charter suggests here that he's not sure that he is dead. Even if you knew that we were in twilight, charter didn't seem sure. If he truly wasn't then why would you assume he'd drop all scumplay? After you pointed out that it was a lynch and we discussed it, scum would know that lying would be pointless. But charters post clearly shows that he was not sure. It looks like a slip to me accepting charter's word so quickly, because scum are never in doubt about alignment.

I'm seeing a decent number of point against ODDin.

fos:

ODDin

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Well, I can count, and I knew we had three votes on him, and since it's an open setup, I knew lynch was settled already. So yes, I believed him. If you want to think it's a Freudian slip of sorts... well, I can't really say anything on the matter other than "no, it wasn't".

However, you seem to disregard the fact that I also brought up an argument against you, para (post 150, top of page 7). You replied to charter, but you didn't at all address my point - although you clearly read the post, as you selectively replied to the part about Khamisa.

All I have to say in response to your comment in 150 is that I didn't see much to gain so close to deadline.

I don't think it was a freudian slip. I would say you just didn't seem to be thinking like a townie.

I'll admit that I haven't suspected you at all before, besides your interaction with charter at the very beginning. But I've just done a re-read and there's only 2 people to concentrate on.

Idk it's pretty hard to tell. Khamisa looks like she could be scum, but it seems to be her lack of activity that most bothered me earlier. ODDin appears more scummy, but he's also provided alot more information to be suspicious of. Khamisa hasn't done too many suspicious things because she hasn't done much at all.

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Also, para, you didn't say anything about me and my behaviour prior to Khamisa's post - not during the twilight discussion, not during the beginning of D2. Yet all of Khamisa's points are relevant to things I've said during twilight at the latest. Yesterday, you said I was your most likely candidate to be town. You brought up arguments against Khamisa in post 157 and didn't say anything about me.

Oh yeah, and I'd like to point out:

So, my suspect list:
Empking
Para
charter
ODD

Khamisa hasn't suspected you either all game. No one really has. That's making me want to really consider you. I always thought Khamisa was the one floating under the radar, but I've been looking at her since early on and you've been gliding through the whole game.

You're the only player who never suspected empking. You voted him randomly, and then disregarded him up to his death.

Also:

This game is sliding downhill like... well, I can't think up a suitably vivid metaphor, but pretty darn fast.
Can anyone explain me why charter isn't dead? Does anyone understand by what rules the game is currently running?

I feel like this is a bit of an overreaction. For the town, we had just killed scum. You say the game is going downhill but the only confusion was whether one player was alive. It'd make more sense for scum to panic at the idea of a 3 vs. 1 situation.

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It's not that I completely disregarded empking. I was just more inclined to regard his behaviour as a null-tell due to his meta, as reported by charter.

I felt the same way, and yet I still saw him as worthy of suspicion. You're talking about it as if you needed a reason to suspect him. There's only 5 players in the game and you barely deal with one beyond a random vote. You mention him constantly in your arguments against charter, but never seem interested after the whole meta discussion. It's like you got a reason to not suspect empking and sat on it. You were disregarding.

Also, Khamisa, para raised an actually valid point: on your list of suspects back then, para was right after empking. What happened now? What caused you to change your mind?

I don't like this at all. As both Khamisa and I have pointed out, we've just done re-reads. 2/3s of our mystery is suddenly solved and we gained a ton of info from day 1 and you are suspicious of me and khamisa for changing our thinking? Again this seems more in line with scum behavior, because their thinking doesn't need to evolve based on information.

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Ultimately I have to go with ODDin for my vote. I've already gone over some of my reasons for suspecting you. I am still suspicious of Khamisa, but I think if she was scum she would've gone after me today along with you, I mean after charter's declaration and your argument it'd be the natural choice. I hadn't mentioned much suspicion of you, ODDin, yesterday so for Khamisa to go after you wouldn't be the best choice as scum.

Both me and ODDin seem to prefer each other's lynches at this point. If neither of us is scum then we are going to lose.

vote: ODDin

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I don't think there normally are vengeance kills after day 1.

But I'm not scum anyway. I'm guessing Khamisa must be it.

[Paradoxombie]

Good work scum. You fooled enough of the town, and I guess that's what counts.

If the town had followed your advice from twilight, we would've lost anyway.


It's unfortunate. I was pretty sure of Khamisa at the beginning of day 2 but then I re-read. It was easy to see a bunch of points against ODDin but since Khamisa literally did nothing day 1 there were only a few points against her. Since Vengeful games usually last only 1-3 days, her lurking day one really limited the case against her.


Fun game. I'm a big fan of Vengeful because longer games seem to drag on. The town is ultimately at a disadvantage in a shorter game though.

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I wasn't bothered but probably because I'm experienced in both mafia and the vengeful setup. Otherwise I might have been more confused.

I also would be more bothered if it was a longer game.

I liked the in-game prods but maybe just because I feel anti-lurking after this game. Activity is important in this setup as we've seen.


I didn't really feel like scum benefited but if the joke deadline thing had caused a lynch that would've been lame.

[Paradoxombie]

I think charter will blame anyone but himself for the loss.