Lynch All Lurkers Mafia! GAME OVER

[Ether]

4 MafiaSSK (Xylthixlm, ortolan, Empking, populartajo)
2 elvis_knits (image, Nuwen)
2 image (roflcopter, Stephoscope)
1 Nuwen (elvis_knits)

3 Unvote (MafiaSSK, Mastin, Kinetic)

12 alive; 7 to lynch.

[elvis_knits]

I might vote SSK, I might not. It's not like he's pro-town, so I don't oppose the lynch. But I don't really love utility lynches.

Also, why is everyone so intent on killing SSK when Empking is equally useless? Why doesn't anyone care that Empking has done nothing but come in and join the leading wagon every time?

I am somewhat concerned because I feel like we're abandoning scum hunting in favor of utility lynches on people who are never helpful. That's not to say we should give them a free pass to act they way they do... it's just that coming off yesterday with two self-hammering townies I'm afraid that we haven't gotten much information from lynches. Both lynches were so easy that scum could easily hide on the lynch, or not even come anywhere near the lynch because they didn't need to help to make the lynch go through. Utility lynch will give us equally little information... unless one or both of them are scum.

But lynching them now gets rid of the problem for later, so maybe we should do it.

I'm not voting until rofl comes back though. I don't like the idea of ramming through a lynch before rofl gets back to give his thoughts.

[elvis_knits]

Also, the Mastin situation is really obnoxious. Player replaces in when he's in 14 other games, leaves us hanging for a long time and is like "I'm slow at rereads, don't know when I'll get to this..." And then when he posts something, it's these really useless records of how many posts each player made and how long the average posts is.

It makes me suspicious because I've seen scum make similar excuses so they don't have to join the fray, and it just encourages others to keep fighting amongst themselves.

I would even support Mastin not reading anything prior to today's start, and just joining in and rereading when he can. He needs to start playing. I don't care if he doesn't reread everything.

[Empking]

Also, why is everyone so intent on killing SSK when Empking is equally useless?

Because I'm not false claiming a post restriction?

[elvis_knits]

Also, why is everyone so intent on killing SSK when Empking is equally useless?

Because I'm not false claiming a post restriction?

That doesn't make you town.

[Empking]

Also, why is everyone so intent on killing SSK when Empking is equally useless?

Because I'm not false claiming a post restriction?

That doesn't make you town.

You don't think Mafiassk false claiming a post restriction matters at all and we should only lynch him because he's being "useless"?

And you're saying that right after prentending not to want utility lynches?

[elvis_knits]

I think it matters.

I just think it's weird that you're not getting ANY attention.

[Empking]

That doesn't sound like this:

Also, why is everyone so intent on killing SSK when Empking is equally useless?

[elvis_knits]

That doesn't sound like this:

Also, why is everyone so intent on killing SSK when Empking is equally useless?

I not really clear on the SSK business, tbh. Steph said he was a mason and confirmed town and the SSK said they aren't confirmed to each other, I think. Steph said he's faking the pr? Or have we caught him violating?

[Xylthixlm]

elvis: have you ever seen an actual PR as convoluted as the one MafiaSSK claims?

[elvis_knits]

Yeah, it's pretty convoluted.

But God, I hate the notions of masons being unconfirmed. I think the point of being masons is you know the other one is town and you work together. If you don't know the other is town it's just the same as not being masons, except you can talk out of thread, which it sounds like SSK is not doing. The whole thing is massively annoying to me.

Or perhaps I am cranky.

I think I expected steph to be more helpful sorting this out, too.

[MafiaSSK]

Yeah, it's pretty convoluted.

But God, I hate the notions of masons being unconfirmed. I think the point of being masons is you know the other one is town and you work together. If you don't know the other is town it's just the same as not being masons, except you can talk out of thread, which it sounds like SSK is not doing. The whole thing is massively annoying to me.

Or perhaps I am cranky.

I think I expected steph to be more helpful sorting this out, too.

Yes, fine I wasn't doing it a while ago. Now I am but Steph isn't.

[Nuwen]

Worst. Masons. Ever.

Is your post restriction gone now, MafiaSSK?

(backreading, I just wanted to check in and express my desire to slap both of you with a Brick of Good Sense(tm))

[MafiaSSK]

WHY IS MAFIASSK NOT DEAD YET?

roflcopter, Stephoscope, Nuwen, elvis_knits, image, MafiaSSK, Mastin, Kinetic: Explain why you are not voting MafiaSSK.

I believe I am town, sir. I just don't feel like posting a huge ass post detailing why you are scum.

Do it.

No. Because it would mostly be filled with posts for you begging everyone to get me lynched as if you would die for another mislynch.

So, what happened to your post restriction?

Sigh.

[Stephoscope]

Yeah, it's pretty convoluted.

But God, I hate the notions of masons being unconfirmed. I think the point of being masons is you know the other one is town and you work together. If you don't know the other is town it's just the same as not being masons, except you can talk out of thread, which it sounds like SSK is not doing. The whole thing is massively annoying to me.

Or perhaps I am cranky.

I think I expected steph to be more helpful sorting this out, too.

You tell me what exactly you think I should have done.

What exactly would I want to say to SSK in private that I wouldn't want to post here?

I have already asked exactly how I could have been more helpful as a mason, with a partner who is unconfirmed and was acting strangely and beligerent. I've also asked about why he might have wanted the masons outed, if that was his goal with all this behavior.

[Nuwen]

What's your read on elvis if you ignore the rules confusion thing? Still scum? Do you think your later read is influenced by it?

Still scum. I read her in isolation again to look for independent scummy/townish behavior.

She was proposing her interaction with Zwet/the misread of scum mechanic rules as a town tell during phase 2 of day 1 (this is still relevant to the "rules confusion thing," but I don't want to lose this pattern of behavior). It keeps coming up again and again as proof that she's town.

Do you think he would attack his scum buddy out of nowhere for supposedly knowing the game mechanics (when what I posted was wrong anyway)?

Yes. He very well might.

If he did that, his buddies might panic and bus him REAL HARD.

Since zwet has no documented foresight, there's no stopping him from pointing his finger at his buddy right out of the gate.

And you think I faked a misunderstanding of the game mechanics that scum would obviously understand?

@ potartajo

Would elvis defend zwet, or would she bus him? After you answer this question, why don't you look at her contribution again. And think outside the box. Some signs are subtle and aren't carved in the Wiki tablets.

Its more probable that she would bus him.
But I look at her contribution and it feels a very agressive Elvis, the usual Carrie.
But this is what I dont get. Why do Xyl and rolf think she is town? I would at least put her at neutral.

Read page 2. Look at zwet's interaction with me.

The second Malyss bit the dirt, Elvis stuck a vote on DGB (without even waiting to hear whether or not Tajo received results). Her position on Malyss' wagon itself was also weird. She "finds it ridiculous" that people are going for Malyss when Zwet's lynch wagon is primed to analyze, but never suggests that the deviation from his wagon is a scummy misdirection (as I would expect her to - she's been meticulous in other areas of the game). Instead, she later eased into the flow of Malyss' wagon, although she never actually placing herself on it:

I would seriously consider hammering malyss before AH hits 72 hours, if someone puts malyss L-1.

Whether or not I do it will probably depend on who puts down the L-1 vote, and if I decide to drink the WIFOM kool-aide or not.

She was ready to hammer (depending on the L-1 vote? What? Does this mean you believed everyone else on Malyss' wagon was town, and that the L-1 position would attract more scum than any other position on the wagon?), but then proceeded to ask DGB who to lynch if Malyss flipped town - this seems like a clever way for scum to line up mislynches under the guise of town agenda.

And then there's the beginning of the Image wagon,

I am having serious doubts about tajo's claim, seeing as we don't have any dead power roles.

Also,

vote image

(I'd like to note that Rofl planted an unexplained vote immediately after her)

And the /facepalm-worthy disregard of Mason 1 & Mason 2, who should be strong tools

not to forget

as town (or negligible if Elvis is aware that one or both of the pair is a scum mason):

Tajo, care to explain how you are a tracker in what appears to be a mountainous setup?

Gambits are forgotten. Data used to scumhunt is not.

Hey Tajo, do you still think Xyl is scum?

[Nuwen]

Yeah, it's pretty convoluted.

But God, I hate the notions of masons being unconfirmed. I think the point of being masons is you know the other one is town and you work together. If you don't know the other is town it's just the same as not being masons, except you can talk out of thread, which it sounds like SSK is not doing. The whole thing is massively annoying to me.

Or perhaps I am cranky.

I think I expected steph to be more helpful sorting this out, too.

You tell me what exactly you think I should have done.

What exactly would I want to say to SSK in private that I wouldn't want to post here?

I have already asked exactly how I could have been more helpful as a mason, with a partner who is unconfirmed and was acting strangely and beligerent. I've also asked about why he might have wanted the masons outed, if that was his goal with all this behavior.

From a personal theory perspective, I agree that masons gain a lot of power from being able to confirm each other AND daytalk. Daytalk is still a good tool, even between unconfirmed masons, but it can't match auto-confirmation. Our mod, however, believes that masonry does not imply alignment confirmation. And that's what we need to work with - whether or not "the point" of masons is to confirm each other is irrelevant (but interesting, let's rant about how irritating unconfirmed masons are in the postgame please).

Steph, you should be treating your mason partner like you would any other unconfirmed player. If you assume he is scum, what does his QT indicate? If you assume he is town, what does his QT indicate? Why are both of you limiting your daytalk? Did MafiaSSK coerce you into claiming masons to explain his early erratic play?

[Nuwen]

I actually disagree with this- if Yos loves town-aligned tracker mechanics and tajo knows early panicking fits with his meta then this is all the more motivation for him to fake-claim tracker.

I fought with myself quite a bit because I didn't know where I had acquired that piece of meta, putting in the realm of possible public knowledge. It wasn't until I backread through AIM logs that I realized his laud of trackers was in "private" - has anyone else talked to Yos about tracker theory? Is it somewhere accessible (forums, namely) and would Tajo use those two pieces of information to piece together

that

complex of a meta defense? Also, holy indulgence of mod guessing batman. It's so infectious. Let's not take it too far.

I disagree with many, many, many things in this paragraph.

"I don't like" was a poor way to phrase "scumdar alert buzzing, this is a wagon to watch." I don't think MafiaSSK is a bad lynch (for reasons outlined) and I'm not trying to cross myself off of the list of possible bussers if and when he does flip scum - but I do think that it's important for everyone to realize that a well-supported wagon will either be a violent bus or mislynch, and should vote accordingly. An all-town wagon on any scum player is going to be an uphill battle. This doesn't affect the validity of MafiaSSK's wagon, but it's a good analysis point to be aware of as soon as possible.

Why are you so pro-Nuwen when you agree that Nuwen's analogy about lynching lurkers is bad, and you also don't think Steph is town? You should be having serious problems with Nuwen!

And here's where Elvis' alignment becomes obvious. Trying to build a case on one piece of alignment disagreement ("I think x is scum and y thinks he's town, so y must be scum!") is scummy. A difference in opinion is not an absolute scum tell (is this how you operate? Dear god).

You are completely misrepresenting me. I am not building a case on one peice of allignment disagreement. I do not think you're scum because you think steph is town (although you repreated attempt to throw blame on people who are prob town is significant).

How am I misrepresenting your post? You asked why Image was not voting for me, even though he took issue with something that I posted - I didn't say that

you

were building a case, I quoted you because

you suggested that Image build a case against me from a piece of alignment disagreement

.

You are not "prob town" in the slightest. The closest players I believe to being town are Tajo + possibly one of the masons. Declaring yourself prob town because of rule misunderstanding in the RVS is nonsensical.

You have said this is inherently anti-town because lurking is not an anti-town activity if it doesn't go beyond 72 hours.

My points are:
1)Lurking is always an anti-town activity.
2)If we agree beforehand to lynch at 48 hours of lurking(or 60, or whatever), town should know to avoid this. Making the act of lynching lurkers less likely to hit town.

You have never responded to these points. You have made graphs and called your assumptions statistical intuition. That is just another word for BS.

Again, this is either dense or a strawman: the issue isn't whether or not lurking is an anti-town activity at different lengths.

My issue is that you attempted to set up

policy lynches

based on a very board, wide-sweeping action

. The town agreed that 72+ hours equals a policy lynch because there is a game mechanic that makes lurking beyond this point inherently better for scum and worse for town, therefore anyone who lurks past 72 hours is either scum or has been attacked by wild unicorns. Moving the policy lynch point forward to 48 hours has no purpose other than to entangle potential town players in an unnecessary lynch - in a normal game, would you support a policy lynch on someone who hasn't posted for 48, 56, or 68 hours? Until someone hits 72 hours, their lurking is no more detrimental than it is in any other game of this size.

A policy lynch is a lynch based on policy. Obvious statement is obvious. A policy lynch does not require any advance reasoning to jump and its wagoning can very easily be explained away during analysis. Policy lynches only work when their conditions are precise enough to either always hit scum or kill off players that are damaging enough to the town to be considered scum. Expanding a policy lynch to include a fair piece of town demographic gives scum the opportunity to lynch without cost.

[Nuwen]

Elvis is giving me srs scum vibes recently. No, I can't point these things out as per usual.

Fos:EK

Post or die. Seriously.

I can't figure out whether I find MafiaSSK or Elvis more scummy, or whether there's a reason to believe that they can't be scumbuddies. I haven't seen any action on either ones' part to imply mutually exclusive alignments.

[roflcopter]

i haven't read from where i last really posted yet, but lynching mafiassk is mad stupid, a utility lynch is not a good idea right now, and the fact that xyl is OMFG ANGRY that we aren't doing so is not sitting well with me. he's keeping the limelight off of someone, and its either image or nuwen.

[Xylthixlm]

Define "utility lynch".

[MafiaSSK]

i haven't read from where i last really posted yet, but lynching mafiassk is mad stupid, a utility lynch is not a good idea right now, and the fact that xyl is OMFG ANGRY that we aren't doing so is not sitting well with me. he's keeping the limelight off of someone, and its either image or nuwen.

Another good post by roflcopter.

[Xylthixlm]

I don't think MafiaSSK is a bad lynch (for reasons outlined) and I'm not trying to cross myself off of the list of possible bussers if and when he does flip scum - but I do think that it's important for everyone to realize that a well-supported wagon will either be a violent bus or mislynch, and should vote accordingly. An all-town wagon on any scum player is going to be an uphill battle. This doesn't affect the validity of MafiaSSK's wagon, but it's a good analysis point to be aware of as soon as possible.

On the one hand, I agree with this. On the other hand, I think that making decisions on this basis is generally stupid, since it gives the scum a lever to manipulate you with. On the gripping hand, I feel like the MafiaSSK lynch is not getting nearly the support it should have. The reasons to lynch him should be completely obvious to everyone, so why is the wagon "an uphill battle"?

[Xylthixlm]

Seriously people... there is NO chance that MafiaSSK is telling the truth about his post restriction. None. And he seems to be using his claimed post restriction, which is not only obviously fake but also doesn't seem to actually restrict him in what he says at all, as an excuse not to contribute. I cannot find a protown reason why MafiaSSK would do that, even as a mason. I can see plenty of reason for him to act that way as scum.

[MafiaSSK]

Yeah, it's pretty convoluted.

But God, I hate the notions of masons being unconfirmed. I think the point of being masons is you know the other one is town and you work together. If you don't know the other is town it's just the same as not being masons, except you can talk out of thread, which it sounds like SSK is not doing. The whole thing is massively annoying to me.

Or perhaps I am cranky.

I think I expected steph to be more helpful sorting this out, too.

You tell me what exactly you think I should have done.

What exactly would I want to say to SSK in private that I wouldn't want to post here?

I have already asked exactly how I could have been more helpful as a mason, with a partner who is unconfirmed and was acting strangely and beligerent. I've also asked about why he might have wanted the masons outed, if that was his goal with all this behavior.

I DIDN'T ASK FOR US TO BE OUTED. You outed us yourself.