Open 143: Jungle Republic (Game Over!) before 787

[Mixologist]

/confirm

[Mixologist]

I have a meta on Emp and Zwet.

Who doesn't?

vote zwet

Because I hear it's the thing to do.

[Mixologist]

@Mixo- Are you only voting them because other people say to do so?

Why do you assume I'm following what other people say to do?

As far as your methodology, you can play your way and I'll play mine. I actually enjoy a little laughter and light-heartedness before I get all seriousface.

[Mixologist]

...besides, as I understand it, Zwet has been trying to spruce up his gameplay, and successfully at that)

Yeah, just throw classical music somewhere into your argument and he'll probably hit us with a wall-o-text.

[Mixologist]

This indicated to me that you were just doing it for the sake of conformity. Is that the case, or no?

Actually, everything I do is for a reason. However, I need to give a "random" reason for "random" voting. zwet is an excellent centerpiece for opening game as it gives me the chance to see how he responds, I'm testing out a theory based upon an ongoing game, and how people respond to him.

unvote zwet

vote Ash

Although it was a random first vote, he seems to have fallen back after everyone has jumped on Dust. Would like to hear from him regarding all this.

[Mixologist]

I see no ash case.

It's not a case. Just an observation.

He put the first vote on Dust. Random.

Dust bandwagon ensued.

I would like his opinion on said wagon.

[Mixologist]

Let's see, advantages to counter claim: None
Disadvantages to counter claim: Many

This.

So I feel that I can safely say that Dust isn't mafia. Does not rule out the possibility that he is a werewolf and the real seer is still out there.

Also

FOS zwet

for fishing.

[Mixologist]

Are you only saying four because you yourself are a scum AA? Slip?

Clearly there are five villains in this game as per post, oh I don't know, 1.

[Mixologist]

Ash, do you believe Dust's claim or no?

Vote on Ash stays for now. Above post seems very off to me.

[Mixologist]

2. If Dust were mafia, could the wagon have been all towny and both wolves (hence no quickhammer as mafia would not kill their own?

Dust isn't mafia. Why would he purposefully out himself as the towns only power role knowing that he would be NK'ed that night.

3. Why would Dust specifically claim seer? In a scenario where there is one power role, would it not be more responsible to claim towny/not scum? That way, you're not really lying, nor are you setting yourself up for a nightkill anyhow and thus defeating the purpose - - I'm actually asking, I'm not familiar with the ethics behind claiming

If he claimed vanilla, he would probably have been lynched. In this set-up losing a vanilla on day one would not hit so hard as losing the seer day one.

A way to find out the truth would be gambling and lynching him, but that would be wildly redundant if the claim holds true, so I almost feel like that's out.

Why mention it then? Dust is

not

an option to lynch. At least not today. Either he really is the seer and he's dead tonight, or he's not the seer in which case tomorrow he will be re-evaluated.

[Mixologist]

1. My thought on the Dust being mafia, both wolves on the wagon, and no mafia quicklynching their own is still valid....(mafia then get two excellent deaths on their hands)

It's actually a very sound theory.

No it's not. The seer helps out the Mafia as much as it helps the town out for right now. If for some reason we go back to back lynches on Wolves, then the seer becomes just another person in the way for the Mafia.

So no, outing himself as seer would be horrible play if he is Mafia. It essentially guarantees his death tonight, and if we lynch a Mafia today, then they are in a bad position to start off the game.

I also don't like how you keep bringing up the possibility that there is going to be a counter claim. There won't be.

If he's a werewolf, then it's perfectly easy to see why: try to out your biggest threat. So if he's a werewolf, he'll still be alive tomorrow.

That's the point I'm trying to convey here. There is no logical explanation for why Dust, as Mafia, would out himself as the seer. It doesn't, however, rule out the possibility of him being Wolf.

[Mixologist]

Ok, I believe I understand where you are coming from.

Now how about putting your little theory to work instead of just discussing it. Who on the wagon do you think is Wolves and to that extent who off the wagon do you think is Mafia?

[Mixologist]

So you're of the second group then?

[Mixologist]

Meaning, that since the entire Dust case you drew up you haven't really done anything except talk theory and speculate on numbers. So are you waiting on others because you don't have an idea of who might or might not be? Or are you waiting to say, yeah that's what I am thinking too.

[Mixologist]

I am not harping on your about not sharing ideas. Where did I say that? In post 168 I asked you:

Who on the wagon do you think is Wolves and to that extent who off the wagon do you think is Mafia?

which you still haven't answered. That is what I am harping on you about. After Dust claimed seer you FOS'ed Ash and Ace for not contributing enough and poked at zwet a little. Please answer.

I'm going to be patient with you because I've had my own slip ups when developing skill in this game - - but for the last time, read carefully - - I even took the time to put italics on a word in the very category you're trying to put me under.

Love the condescending tone there. Why do you assume that I am new to this game?

I've got no eggs in the basket on this one, if I've had a thought, I've proposed it - - After I made a choice to unvote, gave reasons, and exhausted several speculations, you seem to think that I haven't shared ideas?

Again, it's been all "If" and theory. While that is good to talk about, we also need to talk about the actual people on the bandwagon.

Mixer - I'm expressing that we need to hear from everyone else and that they will either offer something new, take action and back it up, or be followers - - all of which will inform us.

There is no harm in discussing it with people who are active though.

Vote Count

zwetschenwasser 3 - Khamisa, AshMC1984, dejkha
AA23 1 - Gorckat
Ash 1 - Mixologist
AceMarksman 1 - Percy

[Mixologist]

If we do lynch you - we lose three townies by tomorrow morning if you're innocent, and no matter your innocence or guilt, we get an idea of who could be who based on their position on you the previous day

You've lost me. If we lynch him today, how will we be three short tomorrow morning? One from lynch obviously. Where are the other two coming from?

[Mixologist]

Do you have reason to believe that a town with 5 villains not taking advantage of a 7 to lynch wagon isn't suspicious?

From what I've seen, scum rarely hammer. They often try to let townies do it. If said lynchee flips town, the person who drops the hammer is often the first person to be looked at. Especially if it's a quick-hammer. So lack of quick-hammer does not necessarily imply that Dust is scum.

**side note - - isn't it illogical to have mafia that can't nk? What threat are they with a common enemy to town? Did someone just make this type of game up?

It's Mafia. To screw with our heads. They have the advantage of numbers, and winning conditions. Also, this is why I said earlier that for the time being, the seer is just as big of a help to the Mafia. Their only true defense is the knowledge of who isn't Mafia.

As to who hasn't posted, hewitt, khamisa, zwet, and Ace off the top of my head. Though I know that zwet and Ace have APs this week.

[Mixologist]

Oh, forgot Ash should be added to that list.

hewitt, khamisa, zwet, Ace, Ash

[Mixologist]

I wouldn't go as far as saying AA23 is scum but I remember reading the previous pages and thinking he's the scummiest, I'm at Six Flags today so if I don't explain why tonight then prompt me and I'll remember tomorrow.

Until you explain...

unvote

vote hewitt

[Mixologist]

Actually after re-reading both zwet and Ace in isolation I'm more interested in Ace though for these two posts:

Vote: dust

I have seen dust in other games (not on this site) playing as scum, and in every one where he is scum, he starts exactly like this.

Things to note: stifling of the RVS, which he supports when he's town, being quick to FoS but slow to vote etc.

dej: Mind you

I've only seen him in one game as scum

, but he started it the same way.

Contradiction anyone?

zwet might not be the brightest crayon in the box, but I doubt he would purposefully link himself to his scum buddy. I'm liking Ace more as Mafia and zwet as Wolf at this point.

unvote

vote AceMarksman

FOS hewitt

[Mixologist]

*facepalm*

Please tell me someone other than Percy noticed when I pointed this out earlier.

I remember you saying a while ago. However, it seemed to have slipped by the wayside a little so I thought I bring it back up =) You triggered my memory when you mentioned zwet in isolation.

Also since we have you here hewitt, what do you think of said bandwagon?

[Mixologist]

I don't care for/support it.

Not what I was going for at all. Let me rephrase.

What do you think of the voters on the bandwagon?

[Mixologist]

Meh. I can see how you take it that way, but in my head I was referring to your play style itself.

Who do you think is scum, zwet?

[Mixologist]

Besides Dust, who is not going to be lynched today, who do you think is scum and why?

[Mixologist]

@AA- What are your thoughts on Ace?

[Mixologist]

@AA - I'll respond to 258 and 260 when I'm at a computer. Quick question though, you acknowledge Ace's contradiction but aren' voting him? Why? Also, how does Ace's contradiction suggest to you that Dust is a scum of aother group?

[Mixologist]

In my opinion, it's poor judgment to think that scum of the same group will not bus each other.

Also, since you are voting Empking instead of Ace, do you believe Empking to more likely be scum than Ace?

[Mixologist]

Do we understand that asking for a claim is only useful

if we intend to see how it stands to a counterclaim/with the town?

I'm not being sarcastic, I just strongly feel you've all lost something in the texthere.

There are other ways of putting this claim to use. If Dust is

not

the Seer, then the real Seer knows this and can safely hide behind him. How is not a good thing? If Dust is

not

the real Seer, then the Seer is safe tonight, letting us possibly get a guilty verdict tomorrow. How is this not a good thing?

Instructing a man to claim, and in the same sentence instructing everyone not to challenge it - - is communicating an immunity play to a scum buddy.

It is not scummy to not want a CC - - it is not scummy to ask for a claim - - it is scummy to instruct a player to gain the immunity of a claim whilst instructing the town not to challenge it.

Or, it could be letting the town's only power role know that he shouldn't put a huge X on his back? As it is, Dust is most likely dead tonight. If he doesn't die tonight, we'll have to go back and re-evaluate everything.

You have all said it yourself - - if a claim was on the way no matter what - - based on common sense and the need for survival.....why ask for it? Remember, you've all said it yourself, it's just SO expected and obvious - - why instruct both motions that cancel each other out?

Because it's not so obvious to everyone. Did you not see zwet's responses? Just because one person sees something, does not mean everyone sees it also.

The request of no CC is us covering our asses.

No. The request of no counter-claim is to make sure if Dust isn't the Seer, the real one does not outs himself. Percy pointed this out in his post.

[Mixologist]

Oh this is getting fun.

Ace lies about a meta to put a vote down and gets caught/suspected of it later...

...and my points on Emp are significantly more substantial than a

semantics game

played on Ace...

So now an out and out contradiction is being downgraded to semantics? Why are you defending Ace?

FOS AA

[Mixologist]

No I FOS because you changed your stance on Ace from saying he was lying to saying well maybe he thought wrong. That is a -huge- change. If it isn't, please explain to me how.

...and I'm investigating a player that has no votes on him - how could that be scummy of me?

It's called misdirection. Very big scumtell.

[Mixologist]

Then we are going to agree to disagree.

I don't see how you can say that:

Vote: dust
I have seen dust in other

games

(not on this site) playing as scum, and in every one where he is scum, he starts exactly like this. Things to note: stifling of the RVS, which he supports when he's town, being quick to FoS but slow to vote etc.

can regress to this:

dej: Mind you I've only seen him in one

game

as scum, but he started it the same way.

and can be argued away as semantics and hyperbole.

[Mixologist]

Ok, so re-reading I can see, and understand, why Empking's post was scummy.

However, I think it's minor at best. I agree that his claiming of Seer was obvious. I disagree that not counter-claiming is not so obvious. This was proven right after Dust claimed Seer, zwet almost immediately asked for a counter-claim.

[Mixologist]

Side note:

@Gorckat - You digging to China there?

@Mod - Can we get prods on Ash and Khamisa?

[Mixologist]

@hewitt - It might have been lost in translation, but I was actually referring to the Dust bandwagon. Can I get your thoughts on that?

@AA- We've had sufficient discussion, would you answer my question I asked you awhile ago:

Who on the wagon do you think is Wolves and to that extent who off the wagon do you think is Mafia?

I'll live with a top three for now.

[Mixologist]

@AA-

Who on the wagon do you think is Wolves and to that extent who off the wagon do you think is Mafia?

I'll live with a top three for now.

Please stop sidestepping.

[Mixologist]

Scumtells are not going to fall into your lap. I'm asking for your top three more for information purposes. If one of your top three flips the opposite way, I would like to see how interaction/non-interaction occurred between the two of you.

Also before I forget:

@Mod- I will be V/LA the 23rd and 24th. Expect little to no content.

[Mixologist]

L-1? We all agree zwet is scummy? I'll do it.

unvote

vote zwet

[Mixologist]

Zwet isn't going to contribute anything more than non-sensical one liners. Rolefishing for a counter-claim is about as good a D1 scumtell as we're going to get. I intend to see Ace lynched tomorrow. He is scum. However, now we won't have to shift through crap one-liners in the process. This was a good lynch. If you feel different, please feel free to express why. Otherwise, I have nothing else to say on the matter.

[Mixologist]

zwetschenwasser 4 - Khamisa, dejkha, AshMC1984, Hewitt,

Was the vote count at the top of the page. Dust, Empking, and I voted after that. Lynch.

[Mixologist]

Will post later today. But short quickie, AA you're wrong. Sorry.

Vote Count

Mixologist 1 - AA23

[Mixologist]

Sorry I haven't posted yet. Work kept me late. I'm about to make dinner and put my daughter down for the evening. Expect a post in about three hours.

[Mixologist]

Alright so, I don't have the time to post a proper post, but I do have a quick question for AA. Besides me hammering, is there anything else you find sus about me?

@Mod - Can we get a prod on Khamisa? She is clearly ignoring this game.

Done

[Mixologist]

So now it's a lie, and not "hyperbole and semantics"? Backtrack more.

...it's purely hyperbole hat can be exploited as a scumtell...

[Mixologist]

@all-Sorry for the lack of contribution since D2 started. Real life issues have kept me very busy and I haven't had time to really properly re-read until now.

So this post will probably shock everyone. Yes, yes, I'm actually proving AA right as far as his debate with dejkha goes.

@dejkha:

FoS:Ace
For using hyperbole to strengthen a vote against Dust and opportunistically distancing yourself to take it off.

Don't know the exact post, but if you read him in isolation it's there. It was quite easy to find.

@AA- Yes, I jumped ship. I have no defense if you want to lay your whole case on my switching votes. If there is something else you find scummy about me to this point, please bring it up. My posts, votes, and thoughts in the future will be more laid out and not so random.

Anyways, I still think Ace should be eliminated today as he is clearly actively lurking and not even attempting to respond to any of the said accusations.

vote Ace

[Mixologist]

So here was my thought process on switching my vote.

zwet's playstyle is null. Let me say that up front. However, if you read him over, can't mention specifics as some of the games are currently ongoing, there is a very distinct difference between scumzwet and townzwet. I truly believed that zwet was scum. Now, I never mentioned that before my switch. That, if I am lynched today, will be my downfall. In my honest opinion, the zwet wagon had more backing to it than the Ace wagon. Meaning, that there was more reasoning to it. All I have on Ace, because he refuses to take part, is the fact that he lied. It's as simple as that. I believed that a zwet lynch would: 1) flip scum 2) be more informative. I was right on one of those two. If we continued with an Ace lynch, and he flipped town, we would have absolutely zero content to proceed off of it.

@AA - What is your opinion on Empking now? You're entire wagon you were building on him yesterday was due to the fact that he communicated to his "scumbuddy" Dust. Dust flipped Seer.

[Mixologist]

All of what you're saying on Zwet was established early enough for you to have been on the wagon earlier...

I don't like being on a wagon early, unless I am the one starting it. Saying that, I will hammer. I have no problem with it. It's the way I play. Unless I start the wagon, I like to keep a second possibility open. This allows me to gather more information on multiple possibilities. I haven't played enough on MS, so I can't prove this to you.

...yet you were still confident in Ace, just as you are confident now...

Yes, I was still confident in Ace, however as I said, I believe that lynching zwet would flip scum and prove more informative.

...I feel as though you are flip flopping as to just HOW scummy he is to whichever way is most convenient to you (it's just how it's coming across)...

As I just stated, it's not a matter of convenience.

...If what you say is indeed accurate - you switched over because of the numbers, yes? (if that's inaccurate, please correct me)

No, I didn't switch over because of the numbers. I switched because I believed zwet would flip scum and his lynch would provide the town with more information than an Ace lynch on D1.

[Mixologist]

Last post before I'm out for the weekend. Wedding and all I have to attend.

You don't like being on a wagon early unless you're starting it, but you say you can't prove it because you haven't palyed enough (which begs the question how would you know what you like that much)...

I said that I haven't played enough on MS. I have played elsewhere. I said that I probably should have mentioned zwet more yesterday, and that if I am lynched today, that will be my downfall.

I didn't switch because of the numbers. Towards the end, there were a lot of people focusing on zwet and not even taking a stance on Ace. At this point I decided to switch my vote and hammer zwet because I thought it would flip scum and prove more informative.

I really have to run now. I will be back late Sunday evening/early Monday morning.

[Mixologist]

Ace is scum so bad it hurts. He is blatantly ignoring this game. Why? There is -zero- pressure on him to contribute. As long as he isn't under any pressure to contribute, he will continue to actively lurk.

Look back at the end of D1. Ace, again, was under -zero- pressure as everyone was focusing in on zwet. Percy and I, again, were the only ones voting him.

@AA- The people you are accusing me of dirtly hoping behind, Ash and hewitt, are now shamelessly hoping on behind you. What do you make of that? Also, re-reading you AA, it should said that speaking in absolutes like you are concerning me actually implicate you. Saying that someone is 100% scum when you are not an investigative role implies that you have knowledge that the rest of us don't. Saying that implies that you are scum. Are you scum?

Also...

Ace - you are suspect one for a lot of people based on a suspicious act.

..misrepping someone -is- a scummy act, not a suspicious act. Regarding Ace, you go from saying...

Ace lies about a meta to put a vote down and gets caught/suspected of it later - - this could make him a villain and the reasons for lying suggest Dust being a villain of the opposite variety to him.

...to saying...

I based the first part of what you quoted me on from you and Dej saying he lied - - in between that and me realizing it was semantics, I read back to his statement - - it's purely hyperbole hat can be exploited as a scumtell - I'm not lynching someone for that.

...to saying...

FoS:Ace
For using hyperbole to strengthen a vote against Dust and opportunistically distancing yourself to take it off.

...to

finally

saying...

Why go for a guy that believed something, instead of the person who was caught in a LIE...

...so, please pick a side on this issue.

@dej/Emp- More pressure on Ace, when he flips scum we can worry about AA tomorrow.

@hewitt- You don't even mention Ace and the fact that he lied. Why did you vote zwet over Ace?

[Mixologist]

you're preaching to the converted.

I hardly see conversion.

How do you have the nerve to tell me to pick a side on the issue when you yourself picked your side D1 (between Zwet and Ace, you picked Ace and went FULL STEAM AHEAD) - to switching on a whim?

More appeal to emotion noted. Your posts are laden with them.

You went from saying Ace lied, to saying you weren't going to lynch someone for semantics and hyperbole, to a weak fos, to saying he lied. Yes. I am telling you to pick a side, because you have demonstrated that you will choose whichever is more suitable for yourself at the moment.

Please respond to the other statements I made.

[Mixologist]

You said you didn't switch over because you don't like starting a wagon, or being early on one.

Nice attempt to misrep what I said. I prefer starting wagon, or being on them late. That does not mean that if I find someone uber scum I'm not going to jump on them.

I didn't get on the zwet wagon earlier because Ace was, and still is, flying under the radar.

I switched my vote, as I have stated before which you seem to have overlooked, that I believed that zwet would flip scum and prove more informative. There are several people that totally ignored my comments that I made about Ace and attached themselves onto the zwet wagon. After Ace is lynched today, I plan on laying each of them out nicely.

[Mixologist]

Since when is -like- an absolute term?

Vote Count

Mixologist 3 - AA23, AshMC1984, hewitt
AceMarksman 3 - Mixologist, Percy, dejkha
AA23 1 - Empking

[Mixologist]

EBWOP: Hit submit not preview.

Since when is -like- an absolute term? You're trying to stretch what I said into something it doesn't mean. Also please respond to the rest of 440.

[Mixologist]

The fact that you are saying that I haven't answered your question means you failed to read 440. Let me show you.

Ace is scum so bad it hurts. He is blatantly ignoring this game. Why? There is -zero- pressure on him to contribute. As long as he isn't under any pressure to contribute, he will continue to actively lurk.

Look back at the end of D1. Ace, again, was under -zero- pressure as everyone was focusing in on zwet. Percy and I, again, were the only ones voting him.

Let me say again. There is -zero- pressure on Ace to post. That is why he isn't. I'm not going to let someone who I think is scum fly under the radar. That is why I pursued Ace.

Also 440 does have questions.

The people you are accusing me of dirtly hoping behind, Ash and hewitt, are now shamelessly hoping on behind you. What do you make of that? Also, re-reading you AA, it should said that speaking in absolutes like you are concerning me actually implicate you. Saying that someone is 100% scum when you are not an investigative role implies that you have knowledge that the rest of us don't. Saying that implies that you are scum. Are you scum?

[Mixologist]

So are you refusing to answer my question?

I've answered. Please read.

[Mixologist]

I like how there is still -zero- pressure on someone who is flat out ignoring this game.