Mini 761 - Game Over

[Zachrulez]

I need to think through some of the possibilities here. While I do,

Unvote

Is there any precedent for a vigilante sending in a no-kill order? That's the part that really has me scratching my head.

What if Jazzmyn is a serial killer? (I don't think any of us thought there'd be both a SK and a vig, so vig seems a pretty safe roleclaim if she is.)

There is precedent for vigilantes to no kill. They are a pro town role, and thus must work out whether their kill can help town or ultimately do more harm than good.

If Jazz is a serial killer, we STILL want to lynch someone else. Presuming 3 scum, lynching the serial killer will still give the scum a majority, which means town loses.

[Stephoscope]

If Jazz is a serial killer, we STILL want to lynch someone else. Presuming 3 scum, lynching the serial killer will still give the scum a majority, which means town loses.

I agree.

I don't really trust Jazzmyn's claim, but I think it's more likely she's an SK than scum, so I think we should keep her in.

Although, having pitched a perfect game so far, I could definitely see scum going for a one-for-one trade. Let's try and force Jazzmyn's actions to be town aligned; if she doesn't follow through, we lynch her.

[Hoopla]

This isn't a bad position for the town. We should definitely at least keep Jazz alive for now - I don't know if she really is a vig, but I can't see her being scum. The SK is another possibility.

The thing is though, if she was an SK, she wouldn't have to worry about the early lylo and not shooting as she would still have a chance to win.

I propose we keep her alive today on the basis we get to select her kill; meaning the town has two kill cycles to scum's one for this next period.

So, we should vote for the scummiest player to kill, and then have a vote for tonights vig/SK kill. If Jazz doesn't agree with this, we lynch her today. Thoughts?

[alexhans]

You thought there were 5 town and 3 scum... minus you 4 town 3 scum... And you wanted a consensus? Isn't it terribly dangerous knowing there is almost a scum majority?

Huh? In what universe does 5 town/3 scum = "almost a scum majority"?

Look. You won't really be part of the consensus if you are the vig in question. That leaves 4 against 3 people to decide who to kill. 4 people act on their own, just guessing. 3 people can act accordingly. Therefore I think trusting a common consensus is dangerous here.

I really fail to see how your claim is beneficial to us.

I've just set out in my prior post above why I thought it would be beneficial, in great detail. You may disagree with some of my thought processes, but for you to say that it is not at all beneficial strikes me as very strange.

Ok. I disagree, as I've explained too that this is such a beneficial move. This is the second time you say that Im doing "very strange things"... Is there even a follow up or you're just throwing it out to see who picks it up?

And if there's a cop you're trying to kidnap the cop to your self.

Um, what? I'm afraid I don't understand you.

Look. YOu claimed Vig. You REQUESTED doc protection and even if you didn't, a doc who trusted you would protect you tonight. That's why you're leaving an open path for the mafia to kill whoever they want.

And if you're scum he might die if he is a weak doc wich along with the NK would ensure your victory.

First, I'm not scum; second, if I was, I would have absolutely no reason to claim, as I have not been under any particular suspicion at any time on Day 1 or Day 2. You need to ask yourself whether you truly believe that scum who isn't drawing any suspicion to himself would act as I have; and third, I have no idea what you're talking about regarding a cop who could be a weak doc.

First. I will think about every possibility (that includes you being scum). Second, if you were part of a scumgroup of 3 (in the setup you thought likely) getting a claim right and mislynching a town player would definetly win you the game.
You weren't under any particular suspicion? I don't think so. I was wary of your actions and I think others (Zach, ryan, Panzer) had some doubts too.
third, I mixed up... where I said cop it should read doc. sorry.
A weak doc is just like a normal doc but if he protects scum he dies. therefore if you were scu m and he protected you, you would kill him. And added to the nightkill you would surely win the game too.

Players can ask all the questions they like, and they can either believe me or disbelieve me, but the bottom line is that I did what I thought was the most beneficial to the town with the knowledge and information that I had available to me at the time.

Ok. the thing is, I can't see what that info is... I can NOW understand why you suspected Panzer. Because he claimed seeing Steph going for the one you had killed. Why didn't you say so after you claimed?

If players believe me, great, we move on and the town can collectively pool its thoughts, hopefully lynch one of the scum today, and direct my target for Vigging tonight. If players disbelieve me, the scum and a couple of townies will lynch me. I've come to terms with the fact that I failed to consider a setup that I had never heard of, and if I am going to be lynched as a result and the town then loses both me and another townie to tonight's NK, well, talk about a lesson well learned.

I would like nothing else to believe you and be right. Is just that I don't want to be fooled. And I've seen fake claims before from super-pro-town players so I won't inmediatly accept it it so far in the game.

I never said I was in favour of it, either. You do know what the word "if" means, right?

Yeah. But by saying that if it did happen you wanted others to claim first was a scummy move. Because after softclaiming you wanted others to claim first... You totally hung onto Hoopla's apparent trust on you.

@Jazz: Also, Is this your first time as Vig?

No, it's my second. The first time was in Root of All Evil Mafia. All of my games are in my Wiki, so you can look it up there by clicking on the Wiki button below any of my posts.

Good. I know, I will review it if I have time.

Why do you make such emotional outbursts and erect strawmen so regularly? I was not "afraid to speak" at all. I did answer your questions fully except for explaining parts that might have something to do with my role.

perhaps it is my style. Perhaps is me not knowing how I haven't got a clear set of suspects becuase you all seem scummy in one way or another.

Saying you were afraid of being night killed is not good enough becuase ultimately you weren't even planning on using your power...

Another strawman. Two more, actually. 1) I am not afraid of being NKed and never said any such thing. Being NKed is just part of the game when you're a townie, and it's always a possibility, and if it happens, it still gives the town information to analyze the next day based on whatever happened previously. Of course, I would prefer not to be NKed if I have a power role, since that negates the use of the power for the benefit of the town, but it nonetheless still gives information.

I'm just guessing a possible unsatisfying answer you might give me, so you give me a good one.

Give me one reason why YOU, if you were a town role, would trust this claim.

See above.

Yeah... unfortunately it all comes down to me trusting you.
------------

@Hoopla:

So, we should vote for the scummiest player to kill, and then have a vote for tonights vig/SK kill. If Jazz doesn't agree with this, we lynch her today. Thoughts?

you mean lynch and kill right? It might be good say we bold it and say vkill: Someone... so we can keep a votecount.

A problem I see is that if Jazz is scum then she will kill whoever she wants and be done with it... If she is SK she is definetly an asset for the town... and scum knows this. I'm wondering if it's not better to just let her use her own judgement so scum won't know who she will target.

[X]

Vote Count

LesterGroans:

(2) ryan2754, Zachrulez

Stephoscope:

(1) Jazzmyn

Not Voting

: (4) alexhans, Hoopla, LesterGroans, Stephoscope

Vote Threshold

: 4

Happiness with Posting Level

:

Disappointed

[Jazzmyn]

I suppose Jazzmyn would prefer everyone roleclaim but her, and we all lynch more townies,

Wrong.

I think it's very likely she was planning a fakeclaim, and she's realized the setup possibilities in this game make it a lot riskier than she'd thought.

Wrong. First, I've never faked a claim in any of my games, ever; go ahead and look them up. Second, the possibility of a 2:10 setup makes my plan more dangerous for me, not for the rest of the town. But I decided to go ahead with it anyway for reasons set out above.

Is there any precedent for a vigilante sending in a no-kill order? That's the part that really has me scratching my head.

I'm pretty sure there are. You could try looking at some completed games.

What if Jazzmyn is a serial killer?

I'm not but you have only my word on that, of course.

(I don't think any of us thought there'd be both a SK and a vig, so vig seems a pretty safe roleclaim if she is.)

Except, of course, that there was no reason for me to fake claim at all.

Although, having pitched a perfect game so far, I could definitely see scum going for a one-for-one trade.

Again, for what purpose? There was no reason for me to fake a claim in the first place.

Let's try and force Jazzmyn's actions to be town aligned; if she doesn't follow through, we lynch her.

Why use the phrase "let's try and force Jazzmyn's actions to be town aligned" when I'm the one here

volunteering

to have town consensus direct my vig kill?

So, we should vote for the scummiest player to kill, and then have a vote for tonights vig/SK kill. If Jazz doesn't agree with this, we lynch her today. Thoughts?

Obviously, I agree with it, as it was me who suggested in my claim post that the town consensus direct my vig action tonight, however we might arrive at that.

Regards,
Jazz

[Jazzmyn]

You won't really be part of the consensus if you are the vig in question.

Sure, I am as I am still a townie so my interest is in killing scum, not mis-targeting another townie like I did on Night 1.

I really fail to see how your claim is beneficial to us.

I've just set out in my prior post above why I thought it would be beneficial, in great detail. You may disagree with some of my thought processes, but for you to say that it is not at all beneficial strikes me as very strange.

Ok. I disagree, as I've explained too that this is such a beneficial move. This is the second time you say that Im doing "very strange things"... Is there even a follow up or you're just throwing it out to see who picks it up?

I find it very strange that you say things like "I fail to see how your claim is beneficial to the town" when I just finished setting out in great detail why I thought it was, and I find it strange that you now say that you have explained why it is such a beneficial move, right after you just got done saying the opposite. I find contradictions like this strange, and confusing.

YOu claimed Vig. You REQUESTED doc protection and even if you didn't, a doc who trusted you would protect you tonight.

No, I did not request doc protection. Rather, I set out the plan that I thought would work to the benefit of the town for others to discuss, adopt, modify or reject. I also set out that in light of the possibility of a 2:10 setup, we may not even

have

a doctor, which would mean that I will most likley be the scum's target after claiming.

That's why you're leaving an open path for the mafia to kill whoever they want.

The scum already have an open path to kill whoever they want, so I don't see how my idea is any worse than the situation we are in at present with 5 dead townies. I thought that having the input of others into my vig action might be more beneficial to the town than me just acting on my own. It really is as simple as that. Also, just so we're clear, the reason I asked you to explain this is because what you said initially was "And if there's a cop you're trying to kidnap the cop to your self" which I didn't understand. Now, do you understand why I didn't understand you?

First. I will think about every possibility (that includes you being scum).

Actually, it remains to be seen whether you will think about every possibility, but we'll see about that on a re-read.

Second, if you were part of a scumgroup of 3 (in the setup you thought likely) getting a claim right and mislynching a town player would definetly win you the game.

If that was the case, don't you think I would have just used my night action to kill a townie last night?

You weren't under any particular suspicion? I don't think so. I was wary of your actions and I think others (Zach, ryan, Panzer) had some doubts too.

It was pretty minor, though, and partially deliberately engendered for purposes of hopefully being suspicious enough that the scum might leave me alone last night.

A weak doc is just like a normal doc but if he protects scum he dies.

Thanks. I guess that's the same thing as a Quack? I played in a game with quacks once.

therefore if you were scu m and he protected you, you would kill him. And added to the nightkill you would surely win the game too.

But again, if that was the case, don't you think I would have just used my night action to kill a townie last night?

Ok. the thing is, I can't see what that info is... I can NOW understand why you suspected Panzer. Because he claimed seeing Steph going for the one you had killed. Why didn't you say so after you claimed?

Interestingly enough, I did initially write about that in my claim post, but then on preview, I decided that it was probably obvious, and my post was getting too long and going off into other stuff that wasn't germane to my role claim so I decided to just cut it off where I did, with "Any questions?" expecting that others might have questions to which I would then respond specifically.

Here's what I wrote about that initially:

Also, because I vigged Amished on Night 1, I knew with 100% certainty that Panzer was lying about his Watcher claim. It did not occur to me that he might be a townie trying to pull off a stupid fake claim to save his own neck. Although I dislike his play style generally and although he tends to come across as scummy at the best of times from what I’ve read of him, I really didn’t think that a player with his experience would pull such a stupid stunt as that if he was town.

I figured that was getting off on a bit of a tangent and didn't really add anything to my post, so I axed it at the time.

I would like nothing else to believe you and be right. Is just that I don't want to be fooled. And I've seen fake claims before from super-pro-town players so I won't inmediatly accept it it so far in the game.

That makes eminent good sense.

I never said I was in favour of it, either. You do know what the word "if" means, right?

Yeah. But by saying that if it did happen you wanted others to claim first was a scummy move.

No, it wasn't. It's simply a fact that if consensus was for a massclaim, the scummiest players should, in fact, claim first.

Because after softclaiming you wanted others to claim first...

Again, no. The word "if" is important here, and you have again glossed over it.

You totally hung onto Hoopla's apparent trust on you.

I don't think I even know what that means. In any event, you are, of course, entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts.

Yeah... unfortunately it all comes down to me trusting you.

Partially, yes, I suppose that's true. But you have a choice, and I can also be tested. Look, I have no illusions about the outcome of the game insofar as my own role is concerned: i.e. I do not expect to survive to the end game, but I don't mind that at all so long as I can contribute as much as possible and the rest of the town does their best to pull off a town win in the end.

I'm wondering if it's not better to just let her use her own judgement so scum won't know who she will target.

You raise a valid point here. But perhaps there is a way to stop the scum from knowing who I will target while still ensuring that the town directs my target. We should discuss this further and get input from everyone. I am content to go with whatever consensus solution is agreed upon.

Regards,
Jazz

[Zachrulez]

Have Lester and Ryan checked in about the claim yet?

Just wondering.

[Zachrulez]

Hello, all

Sorry for my absence the last couple of days, but I am dealing with an unexpected family crisis/emergency, which has precluded me from getting to any of my games.

As I have already said, I intend to claim today, and if the pro-town players come to a consensus on that, I am content to go ahead.

Personally, I think that Stephoscope is scum, and I will set out in full my reasons for thinking so at my first available opportunity. It may not be this (real life) day, depending on how things go with the abovementioned crisis, but if all goes well, I hope to be able to get to it tonight.

Regards,
Jazz

I don't believe you have shared your reasoning for believing Stephoscope to be scum.

I look forward to hearing it personally.

[Stephoscope]

Let's try and force Jazzmyn's actions to be town aligned; if she doesn't follow through, we lynch her.

Why use the phrase "let's try and force Jazzmyn's actions to be town aligned" when I'm the one here

volunteering

to have town consensus direct my vig kill?

You've "volunteered" your roleclaim and your apparent case against me, and yet, everything's had to pretty much be beat out of you. Don't blame me for not being confident in your following up on your word.

[Stephoscope]

Hoopla, you sorta parroted my 701 in your 702.

[alexhans]

@Jazz: You saying there's no reason to claim if you're scum is not exactly true. You can always find a reason to claim if you can decently guess the setup.

I really fail to see how your claim is beneficial to us.

I've just set out in my prior post above why I thought it would be beneficial, in great detail. You may disagree with some of my thought processes, but for you to say that it is not at all beneficial strikes me as very strange.

Ok. I disagree, as I've explained too that this is such a beneficial move. This is the second time you say that Im doing "very strange things"... Is there even a follow up or you're just throwing it out to see who picks it up?

I find it very strange that you say things like "I fail to see how your claim is beneficial to the town" when I just finished setting out in great detail why I thought it was, and I find it strange that you now say that you have explained why it is such a beneficial move, right after you just got done saying the opposite. I find contradictions like this strange, and confusing.

Totally my bad. I really Fail to see how it is beneficial, and I tried to say that I've explained why I thought your claim was not so beneficial because we don't really have much info.

I'm gonna be honest with you, if you're indeed a vig, I think you just made a really bad play because now we will surely focus mainly on you and wether your case is real. Vigs aren't the most beneficial players, especially when we don't know if we're at lylo. You, not shooting last night is totally null because we don't have any way to find out either way.

There's my explanation. I didn't say you didn'give yours. It's just I think mine is more correct.

That's why you're leaving an open path for the mafia to kill whoever they want.

The scum already have an open path to kill whoever they want, so I don't see how my idea is any worse than the situation we are in at present with 5 dead townies. I thought that having the input of others into my vig action might be more beneficial to the town than me just acting on my own. It really is as simple as that. Also, just so we're clear, the reason I asked you to explain this is because what you said initially was "And if there's a cop you're trying to kidnap the cop to your self" which I didn't understand. Now, do you understand why I didn't understand you?

I do.

First. I will think about every possibility (that includes you being scum).

Actually, it remains to be seen whether you will think about every possibility, but we'll see about that on a re-read.

ummm... ? awaiting your re-read then... I thought you would've done it tonight if you were planning on revealing.

Second, if you were part of a scumgroup of 3 (in the setup you thought likely) getting a claim right and mislynching a town player would definetly win you the game.

If that was the case, don't you think I would have just used my night action to kill a townie last night?

Dude. In that case you USED your night action (or one of your partners did). So obviously there's just 1 NK. Anyway, If neither Lester nor Ryan Counterclaim I'm gonna definetly start believing you're not scum because with 2 deaths claiming vig is kinda dangerous to fake-claim.

You weren't under any particular suspicion? I don't think so. I was wary of your actions and I think others (Zach, ryan, Panzer) had some doubts too.

It was pretty minor, though, and partially deliberately engendered for purposes of hopefully being suspicious enough that the scum might leave me alone last night.

You know that this is the same faulty logic Wall-e used right? Acting scummy to avoid a NK.

therefore if you were scu m and he protected you, you would kill him. And added to the nightkill you would surely win the game too.

But again, if that was the case, don't you think I would have just used my night action to kill a townie last night?

Again, who says you didn't (if you're scum)?

You totally hung onto Hoopla's apparent trust on you.

I don't think I even know what that means. In any event, you are, of course, entitled to your own opinion but not to your own facts.

You mentioned the mass claim precedence AFTER he supported you

Jazzmyn - honest intentions, or rather more sensible actions coming from town. I've found her posts to be genuine and transparent. I don't think she is scum.

Wow, I'm exhausted, I'm going to take a powernap now. When I awake, I want to talk about the pros and cons of massclaim

If we do come to an agreement about massclaiming, I think that Stephoscope, Lester and Zach need to be at the top of the queue.

I'm wondering if it's not better to just let her use her own judgement so scum won't know who she will target.

You raise a valid point here. But perhaps there is a way to stop the scum from knowing who I will target while still ensuring that the town directs my target. We should discuss this further and get input from everyone. I am content to go with whatever consensus solution is agreed upon.

mmm... I don't know how suggesting who you're going to kill will prevent scum from knowing it. If you choose someone else when consensus is on a different player... then, that will be sneaky and maybe interpreted wrongly. I think it's better that you just decide on your own and explain tomorrow.
------------

I don't believe you have shared your reasoning for believing Stephoscope to be scum.

I, too, would like the explanation for this suspicion.


@Lester, Ryan: Where are you?

[Hoopla]

Hoopla, you sorta parroted my 701 in your 702.

Heh, kind of. I was just hastily posting my thoughts at the time. I guess everyone is down for this plan then, eh?

For what it's worth I'm leaning toward believing Jazz's claim, although if it's true, she is more than likely going to die tonight.

[Zachrulez]

I'm in the same boat as Hoopla regarding Jazz's claim.

Interesting question I have thinking about it though.

If we presume her claim is truth, how would we expect scum to react to her claim?

[alexhans]

I don't think we can say much because Lester & ryan are still missing. They must state their opinions on her claim and, preferably, say who they think is scum too. Ryan is voting lester, by the way. Did lester defend himself?

[LesterGroans]

I believe the claim in so much that Jazz is either Vig or SK.

I also think that Jazz's decision of who to kill should be made on her own because ideally we lynch scum today, then Jazz NKs and best case scenario gets scum. I don't want to give them any extra info that we don't have to.

@Jazz: you chose not to kill N2, but did you have anybody you were suspicious of and would have killed?
Also --
__
@Ryan's vote: I reread his post and still not sure of his reasoning for his vote against me. It's based on my hammer of Panzer (which I've already defended) and that my early counterpart was a lurker.

(more coming, looking back...)

[ryan2754]

Sorry, been busy getting ready for Commencement and Finals.

At this point, I am inclined to beleive Jazz's claim, to the point where we should not lynch her this day. Her deep analysis and explanation on why her claim was delayed (because of the opening of 2:10 set up) makes me believe it to be more true than not. However, I am against steering where the Vig (or SK, as I could see her being either at this point) makes their kill. I am in the boat that the Vig should do what they feel as necessary, and it is their role, not the town's per se, and they should use their best judgment. I have this same ideal with all the PRs.

@ Lester: if you re-read my analysis, you will see there are a lot more things that I find scummy. You've been oppurtunistic, quick to vote without reasoning, pitstop lurking. I actually don't find the hammer of lurker too scummy, but that along with everything else just rings scum to me.

[X]

Vote Count

LesterGroans:

(2) ryan2754, Zachrulez

Stephoscope:

(1) Jazzmyn

Not Voting

: (4) alexhans, Hoopla, LesterGroans, Stephoscope

Vote Threshold

: 4

Happiness with Posting Level

:

Satisfied

[Stephoscope]

Four real-life days now since Jazzmyn announced she had a case against me coming.

I'm fairly certain I can justify everything I've done in this game, but I can't really start a defense until I hear why someone thinks I'm scum.

[Jazzmyn]

I'll get to it, Stephoscope. My real life is somewhat hectic and chaotic at the moment, but I think I'm keeping up pretty well in the circumstances. You may have even noticed a couple of lengthy posts of mine just above in which I was responding to the posts of others. I can't do everything at once.

In the meantime, don't let that stop you from posting your own thoughts, suspicions, and cases on players, as the goal here is to lynch scum today. You need not stop contributing on the basis of saying you're waiting to defend yourself. Keep playing the game and do some scum hunting. You will have lots of time to respond to accusations made against you when they are laid out, so that's hardly a reason to stop doing anything else in the interim.

Regards,
Jazz

[Stephoscope]

I'll get to it, Stephoscope. My real life is somewhat hectic and chaotic at the moment, but I think I'm keeping up pretty well in the circumstances. You may have even noticed a couple of lengthy posts of mine just above in which I was responding to the posts of others. I can't do everything at once.

In the meantime, don't let that stop you from posting your own thoughts, suspicions, and cases on players, as the goal here is to lynch scum today. You need not stop contributing on the basis of saying you're waiting to defend yourself. Keep playing the game and do some scum hunting. You will have lots of time to respond to accusations made against you when they are laid out, so that's hardly a reason to stop doing anything else in the interim.

If you have a good case against me, I would think that it could be posted pretty quickly, and that it could have been done before you responded to the posts of others.

And thank you for stating the obvious..."the goal here is to lynch scum today."

Your behavior is so questionable. I was pretty convinced you weren't scum, but I need to think about this AGAIN.

[Zachrulez]

If you have a good case against me, I would think that it could be posted pretty quickly, and that it could have been done before you responded to the posts of others.

And thank you for stating the obvious..."the goal here is to lynch scum today."

Your behavior is so questionable. I was pretty convinced you weren't scum, but I need to think about this AGAIN.

Eh, I can get sidetracked real easily while I'm trying to make a case. I don't see how that's questionable.

Maybe it will help move things along if you analyze and post for our benefit all the perceived questionable behavior you've seen from Jazz.

[X]

Vote Count

LesterGroans:

(2) ryan2754, Zachrulez

Stephoscope:

(1) Jazzmyn

Not Voting

: (4) alexhans, Hoopla, LesterGroans, Stephoscope

Vote Threshold

: 4

Happiness with Posting Level

:

FRUSTRATED

[Stephoscope]

I have a few simple questions.

If you were a vigilante in this game, and Jazzmyn claimed vigilante (almost certainly meaning that she's scum, as far as I can fathom), would you say something right now in the game? What would you say?

How about if you were a serial killer, and Jazzmyn claimed vigilante?

I would like others to answer this in the following order, though I realize I have no authority to demand this:

LesterGroans
alexhans
ryan2754
Hoopla
Zachrulez

There are a few reasons for this exercise, which I will be happy to explain afterward if you all can humor me

[Zachrulez]

Well we might be waiting a while, because some of the people on that list aren't exactly the most active.

But I'll be good and wait my turn.