DHSDSM alpha: Game Over.

[ortolan]

I

said "Incamnito looks as good as caught scum" in 35. That was not a genuine sentiment, but intended as an extension of random voting phase/for pressure

Why? It looks like your two heads contradict each other then and now. You liked the wagon and you didn't explicitly mention the crumb but you did say let's focus on this game. Both me and myself liked the wagon but we explicitly said we didn't believe in the crumb. There in lies the difference, because now you do believe in the crumb when conveniently you ignored discussing it until you could use it in your favor to push a second wagon. Why ignore commenting on it the first time?

I

still

don't understand the crumb. Clearly it was a crumb though, Nuwen said it was an "information role", and Incamnito was a tracker

Her defense was that you pushed the wagon with reasoning while she only kept it at a joke vote. That you were the one to say, let's focus on this game. Tell me, if you were so focused on this game did YOU catch that Incamn had crumbed and it was outed?

I have no idea what you're saying here. I (ortolan) clearly didn't push the wagon, beyond post 35. I can't process your second sentence and to your third- no, I didn't notice/recognise the crumb the crumb and wouldn't necessarily have believed it if I had.

[J-Scope]

I

still

don't understand the crumb. Clearly it was a crumb though, Nuwen said it was an "information role", and Incamnito was a tracker

I don't understand the crumb either, but Nuwen actually said "data" not "information". They do sound like they can be used to mean the same thing, but Information is explicitly used in the wiki to describe a the Tracker and other roles, whereas data is not. I can agree with her that "data" was used intentionally to stay vague, otherwise why not use the proper nomenclature for whatever group of PR she was inferring from the original crumb (she later said she thought it was a doc, which makes sense only because docs got to use their powers before the first action phase).

Anyone saying that Nuwen outed a "information" crumb or a "tracker" crumb is in fact extrapolating on the initial crumb because we know that Incamn was a tracker. Of course it would seem strange if a Tracker crumbed something other than a tracker so in hindsight the people calling it a "information" crumb or "tracker" crumb are correct.

I don't trust hindsight in this instance because firstly scum could have just as easily killed Incamn because there was an unsubstantiated crumb, that, before the flip could have meant Doc or Cop or anything to anyone of us I am willing to bet, and, secondly, because hindsight allows the mislynch of a newbie's mistake.

I can't process your second sentence and to your third- no, I didn't notice/recognise the crumb the crumb and wouldn't necessarily have believed it if I had.

I'm talking about when you said this in post 35:

I would like to suggest (very strongly) we focus on this game over the other for the time being

You only had to read page 1 to understand that Incamn outed what they thought was a crumb. Why did you tell others to focus on a game you weren't apparently reading?

[Yosariwen]

Why would you assume compulsive vig over SK anyway?

I didn't. I already explained this.

...and something else I just realised. Nuwen explicitly said that Incamnito's crumb was for an

information

role. None of the mafia power-roles are, in fact,

information

roles.

She did not say that she thought it was an information role. SHe actually thought they were breadcrumbing doc.

The point being made here (by Frog I believe) was in fact that the breadcrumb is more likely to have come from town than scum

I don't get what makes you think that. Or, at least, why you would disagree with Nuwen's assumption that it was more likely scum then a random lynch would be (remember, her thinking was that a claimed role would be 40% likely to be scum, which is higher then random).

You basically contradict yourself here. You suggest scum have a decent chance of fake-breadcrumbing/fake-claiming tracker yet suggest there is little reason not to believe a tracker-claim.

Considering there is no scum tracker role in this game, there really is no reason a town tracker would be especally worried about his claim being believed. Of course, now that we've had clarificaction from Nuewn, this whole line of discussion is obsolete; she never thought it was a tracker crumb, it never even occured to her, because there isn't any reason for a tracker to crumb something early on day 1; if a tracker was going to breadcrumb, it wouldn't be until after they had information, which wouldn't be until day 2.

[Yosariwen]

You also want to remember, Nuwen is kind of a newbe here. She only has 2 completed games; heck, she couldn't even play as an IC yet. She was awesome in WIH, of course, and clearly has a lot of natural talent, but she hasn't seen nearly as many games as we have.

That's bs. She picked up on a breadcrumb I still don't even understand (LuL) and was perfectly happy to "run numbers" for the likelihood of a power role being scum vs town (even if I disagree with the principle of insufficient reason assumed).

Right. She's got a lot of natural talent, reads very closely, and thinks in a very mathmatical way, especally about game theory and game stratagy.

However, she hasn't actually seen that many setups, which is why I don't think stuff like the "5 pro-town trackers" setup Shaft.ed was suggesting would necessarally occur to her. I also don't think that she's aquired the instintive habits of thought most long-term mafia scum members have, like "outing roles=bad".

You seem to be saying "No, she's not a newbie; look how smart she is!" The one has nothing to do with the other.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Both of Zaphod's heads disagree with the wagon on Yosariwen. The intense focus on it is getting in the way of other avenues of scum hunting and detrimental to the town.

We noticed that Yosariwen is not voting. Perhaps a good starting point to diversifying discussion would be for Yosariwen to analyze players and post a list of suspects.

[whoami8]

You argue that Nuwen did it because power roles are more likely scum, yet no vote incamn was cast and she states herself it's a nulltell.

As she explained, nulltell, as in "could be power role post or scum post." Which still means more likely scum then a random lynch would be.

Since when did nulltell become equivilant with "more likely scum than a random lynch"?

[Frog Dodging]

I'm not at all suspicious of Yosariwen, the crumbing, while a bad move, feels like unnatural play for scum (especially smart scum), and while I've never played with Nuwen, Yos feels like his town self thus far.

This sort of argument is of seriously questionable value. One of our heads (Shanba) used this sort of argument before:

I have been vocal pretty mcuh all game that I think Oman is pro-town, based on his cock up attacking whoever it was based on a mistake in reading his rolename - he counterclaimed another player who he thoguht had claimed his rolename. Frankly, although we know scum have fakeclaims, I don't think scum would counterclaim in that situation. I just don't think it would even cross their mind. I wonder whether Oman clearing me is partly based on OMGUT, then - he's been influenced by me calling him town? Wouldn't be the first time I'd seen that. I'm not too bothered by it, frankly.

Similar sort of argument - it's just unnatural scum play - and it turned out to be 100% utterly wrong. Oman was scum who only really got lynched through an unfortunate process of elimination.

Another example, from Mini 443, Tapioca Mafia;

The main reason I do not suspect Shanba is because of the following - why would Shanba basically spend all of day 1 attacking a d8P and Khelvaster partnership? Although it could be proven it was to show he was more town after their lynches, I am sure Shanba would agree completely that as scum, it would be very risky to argue tirelessly to lynch your two partners. As a result I am pretty sure that, to conclude, Shanba is pro-town for now, and would thus argue he is not the right lynch for today.

Shanba was a godfather who had bussed both his goons starting day 1. It is so easy to manipulate expectations of what town expect scum to do, what town have heard or seen scum do before. What I have learnt is that one of the cornerstones of scum play is to do something unusual, take a stance that is unpopular, move in ways town do not expect you to go - and then town write you off because, well, "scum would never do that." I realise the analogies are not perfect, but the underlying principle - beware the unexpected - remains the same.

When I see a play that there is no reason (or only poor reasoning) for town to do, these days, I immediately become suspicious.

If we combine this with the

massive

inconsistency that J-Scope pointed out, I find it extraordinarily unlikely that Yosariwen is town.

Yos is also, now, not reading the game thoroughly. He claims there was no contradiction - proving that he has not read J-scope's post, where he points out a contradiction. If he were aware of even an alleged contradiction, then he would not act so affronted when it is referenced by Hogfather.

He also claimed there was no non-crumb case against him - when we had already bought up a couple points against them which do not rely at all on the crumb post. Again, his reaction indicates he hasn't even seen this post by us. Which is extremely worrying - it really, really worries me when a player under this much pressure is only skimming the game. I have only my own experience on this (not even my partner's, who I cannot consult at the moment - he'll be back tomorrow) but people who skim the game like that, who aren't really aware of what is actually being said, are so often scum. I know for a fact that when I'm feeling lazy as scum I do this. If you don't actually care about who scum is - seeing as you already know - it becomes almost irrelevant what people are actually saying. You just need to read enough to give the illusion of scumhunting.

OTOH I don't think Yosariwen refusing to claim says anything about their alignment - it just means they are confident they won't be lynched. As either alignment in that situation, they would refuse to claim.

I want to look at the AIM convo in some depth - I really think this could be the key thing in determining their alignment.

8:52:11 PM Mercuriala: guh, this sounds like a ringing endorsement for a power role witch hunt, which -seems- like a sub-optimal way to catch scum. But the numbers!
8:52:34 PM ArtherDent: Heh. I'm glad you have a good justification lined up
8:53:41 PM Mercuriala: I tend to have reasons for everything. I probably should have explained myself prior, whoops.
8:53:54 PM ArtherDent: Eh, 's all right.
8:54:47 PM ArtherDent: One suggestion...you may want to sign that post
8:55:11 PM ArtherDent: I'm sure most of them will figure out it's coming from you and not me, but still, we don't need this getting any more confused then it already is, hah
8:55:20 PM Mercuriala: Indeed.
8:56:07 PM Mercuriala: A skimmer like Jdodge might very well latch onto "two conflicting posts OMGOMGOMG" for three plus pages.
8:56:22 PM ArtherDent: Yeah
8:57:08 PM Mercuriala: I am also changing Yosariwen's phpbb style. Do you have any sepia allergies?
8:57:17 PM ArtherDent: Heh. Not to my knowlege
8:59:43 PM Mercuriala: Deep south tends to reward lynching every claimed player.
9:00:00 PM Mercuriala: Just based on the higher 50-50 distribution of open power roles.
9:00:17 PM ArtherDent: Eh; I disagree
9:00:40 PM ArtherDent: Lynching a power role, especally an information role, costs the town so much more then lynching a vanillia does
9:00:59 PM Mercuriala: Yeah, the cost of a mislynch is far higher.
9:01:06 PM Mercuriala: But the chance of it is much lower.
9:01:31 PM ArtherDent: Eh...well, except that if someone is a power role, you can also get infromation from how they use their power role
9:01:42 PM ArtherDent: Not to mention, if they have an info role, you get even more information
9:02:33 PM ArtherDent: Actually, I would tend to lean to the other extreme; in a mafia game like this, the goal of the town is often to get enough information so they can quicklynch everyone who DOSN'T have a confirmable claim or some role-based way of confirming them as town
9:02:46 PM Mercuriala: Consider also the mexican standoff of claims that can happen in a deep south lylo; there are only so many claim/alignment combinations that can explain how actions resolved.
9:03:11 PM Mercuriala: Which is a great place for town to be in.
9:03:24 PM ArtherDent: Very true
9:04:23 PM ArtherDent: Also; let's say you lynch all power roles, town and scum. In that case, you kind of make it into a mountanous game; and town has historically had a very, very bad record in mountanous games
9:05:17 PM Mercuriala: Also true.

This first thing is that there are no real issues in the timestamping. If there were large chunks of time unaccounted for, then that would be a strong indicator the conversation had been doctored. It's still possible it has - though if it has, it's been done extremely well. All the comments fit together and there are no jarring moments where comments don't fit.

The convo is mostly theoretical in nature - and as such, could have been had between a town hydra or a scum hydra. There are a few things that make me lean either way. Firstly, "8:52:34 PM ArtherDent: Heh. I'm glad you have a good justification lined up" - this looks slightly scummy to me. Concerned about appearances blah blah blah. Nothing damning. I don't really understand why Yos wants Nuwen to sign the post. Which post? It's obviously not the original post, this is from after that. I think, looking at stuff that follows, that it is Yosariwen's Post 8 - and this also finally explains the contradiction.

Let me run this through, this is a sort of epiphany I've had just now.

Yosarian posts that he wishes Nuwen hadn't pointed out the breadcrumb, because he feels it was a poor play.

Nuwen the posts that she wanted to run by the idea of

lynching

these people with Yosarian - and in the AIM convo, that is more or less what she does. She was not running the idea of outing the breadcrumb past Yosarian - she did that independently - but due to miscommunication and a small amount of talking at cross purposes - J-scope's question is about the following quote

hitting a power role at random is more likely to hit scum than hitting any play at random.

and he asks whether she felt that at that time - and therefore whether it influenced Nuwen's decision to out the crumbing - but Nuwen's reply (Mmhm, but I wanted to run the idea by my hydra partner prior.) is about the idea of

lynching

those claims, not about the specific breadcrumb post.

Hrm. That wasn't the dealbreaker/maker I was hoping for. The AIM convo is too focused on that one particular issue - the crumbing post - and tbh, could have been written by scum or by town. I think there is a decent amount of concern about appearances (which

is

scummy, if not amazingly so) but there is also the fact that the situation is discussed

from a town perspective - this will hurt town, this will aid town, this is a great position for town etc. etc.

I really, really want to see some proper scumhunting from these two ASAP. There is no reason that when you are under attack you cannot do both. Yos' only attempts at scumhunting have been weak and OMGUSsy (again, things like the idea that I slipped just make my eyes roll. I have never, not once in my mafia playing career, seen a "slip" I believed in. He's right I didn't even consider the possibility of a town kill. Why is that scummy? Prior knowledge left testicle - when I see a player die, and that player is the only player to die, I think scum. Town don't always have a kill, scum almost always do! (Also, for the record Yos, it was not a bizarre misinterpretation, it's actually a very easy misinterpretation to make. I've had to read the exchange about three times, compare to your AIM convo and take some time to reflect on it before I finally understood what was going on. We don't have access to your minds, we oly have what you wrote, here, in thread to go on - and with what we have here, in thread, it looked like a contradiction.)

Raging Rabbit - If you continue to insinuate that I am scum simply because I am disagreeing with you, then there's really no point in arguing. I'm not going to waste time trying to convince a player who is clearly so motivated by his ideology that he can't even consider that town could have a differing opinion than him.

To approach this as "a noraml game of mafia, only twice as fast" is suicide, unless you're scum of course. which is starting to look more and more likely.

Not only is this a strawman, it's also a logical fallacy disguised by being slipped in as an insinuation.

Basically, it comes down to this. I think that if we go into this with the eye to lynching as much as possible, we will make it very easy for scum to push any lynch that they want. We need to lynch when we have a majority of players that a re reasonably convinced a player is scum - like in any normal mafia game. Otherwise, we risk scenarios like this:

TOWN A: *Scummy remakr*
TOWN B: OMG SCUM LYNCHGOLYNCH
SCUM A: I AGREE LYNCHGOGO
SCUM B: LYNCHLYNCHLYNCH
TOWN C: Big wagon, hrm, since we need to lynch as much as possible, I will join in!

*TOWN A IS LYNCHED*

And then the next day:

SCUM A: *Scummy remark*
TOWN B: OMGSCUMLYNCHGOGOG
SCUM B: Eh, I'm not convinced.
TOWN C: Too much resistance to this wagon, we need to lynch quickly, let's go after someone else!

Do you see what I mean? The idea of lynching lurkers days 1 and 2 etc make it even worse - it's so easy for scum to just push the attention off their partners when they get in trouble but push any townie wagons - and because we need to lynch quickly, we go after the easy lynches, and because we're lynching quickly and we're rushing, we never have the opportunity to go back and spot these connections after all. Personally, I would prefer one informed lynch a day to two rushed lynches a day.

I agree with Zaphod Beeblebrox that Raging Wishbone's vote on Yosariwen is scummy. I don't agree with the signing the hydra heads, thing, but then we as a hydra have already discussed this and I don't feel like going into any more depth. The only reason this post is only expressing my views is that my partner is absent, otherwise I would be communicating his viewpoints as well.


I need to re-evaluate slightly. I still think Yos is a good lynch, but I've lost track of swswc somewhat - and there are other players (notably DTH, PTA, RW) who I want to have an in depth chat with JD about.

[Yosariwen]

We noticed that Yosariwen is not voting. Perhaps a good starting point to diversifying discussion would be for Yosariwen to analyze players and post a list of suspects.

I'm not?

(looks back)

Oh, ok; I was in the wrong account when I voted for Hogfather, so it didn't count, right.

Anyway, my main suspect right now is Raging Wishbone. Early on, they were defending me; then all of a sudden they turned around and joined my wagon, for reasons that make absolutly no sense at all. And it's interesting to note that he was not willing to hammer me, but wanted on to the bandwagon when it wasn't a hammer; which just makes it look like he knows the wagon is going to go bad, and dosn't want to take the blame for it.

Vote:Raging wishbone

[Yosariwen]

Yos is also, now, not reading the game thoroughly. He claims there was no contradiction - proving that he has not read J-scope's post, where he points out a contradiction.

There wasn't, as you apparently figured out below; unless you're talking about something else?

Anyway, I'm certanly not skimming the game; I really don't think there is any kind of valid case against me that dosn't involve the breadcrumb, at least not that hasn't already been refuted.

I don't really understand why Yos wants Nuwen to sign the post.

Ironically, it wa because I wanted to reduce confusion, even though it seems to have had the oppoiste effect.

Me and Nuwen had very different opinions on the theory behind the breadcrumbing thing; I thought it would be a good idea for her to explain why she did it, while signing it to make clear that the opinion was coming from her, not from me, so as to not further confuse the conversation.

Nuwen the posts that she wanted to run by the idea of

lynching

these people with Yosarian - and in the AIM convo, that is more or less what she does. She was not running the idea of outing the breadcrumb past Yosarian - she did that independently - but due to miscommunication and a small amount of talking at cross purposes - J-scope's question is about the following quote

hitting a power role at random is more likely to hit scum than hitting any play at random.

and he asks whether she felt that at that time - and therefore whether it influenced Nuwen's decision to out the crumbing - but Nuwen's reply (Mmhm, but I wanted to run the idea by my hydra partner prior.) is about the idea of

lynching

those claims, not about the specific breadcrumb post.

Right. I did already explain this all, you know.

Because you're compeltly taking it out of context.

This was the entire quote.

hitting a power role at random is more likely to hit scum than hitting any play at random.

Did you have this feeling back then?

Mmhm, but I wanted to run the idea by my hydra partner prior. We came to the consensus that although the chance of a mislynch is lower, the cost to town is far higher. But that rough probability is a good item to keep in mind when approaching any future claims.

If read in context, it's quite clear that what she was saying was that the reason she didn't vote for Incomn in that origional post, even though she thought lynching a power role was a good idea, was BECAUSE she HAD NOT RUN IT PAST HER HYDRA PARTNER YET. LATER, when we did discuss it, we agreed that lynching claimed power roles is actually a bad idea.

I'm not sure why you're accusing ME of skimming the thread, when you're apparently not reading my posts...

That being said, this whole analyis does feel pro-town to me, and I feel a lot better about Frog's alignment now.

I think there is a decent amount of concern about appearances (which

is

scummy, if not amazingly so) but there is also the fact that the situation is discussed

from a town perspective - this will hurt town, this will aid town, this is a great position for town etc. etc.

Well, sure. I mean, we *were* trying to not get lynched at the time, so yeah, I was worried about how we would appear. Worring about appearances in general may be a scum tell, but it's certanly not one when you're fighting for your life.

I have never, not once in my mafia playing career, seen a "slip" I believed in

I have. I've even made one myself before. Granted, it's not something that happens often, but eh.

[Frog Dodging]

Yosariwen (the total contradiction in explaining the crumb-outing is enough for a vote for me

You need to explain this. Now. Because I have not contradicted myself at all, and as far as I can see, neither has Nuwen. And from where i sit, right now it looks like you've from lurking all game to just making stuff up in order to find an excuse to get on the yoswagon.

Yos, this is the post I am referring to. It doesn't matter whwther or not the contradiction is true - what matters is that you accused him of making stuff up, and you seemed completely unaware of what he was talking about, even though J-Scope had already pointed it out.

Similarly, we made a number of points here

Yos is also not his usual self. I would expect yos to be slightly more angry at this point in his wagon rather than conciliatory. I would also have expected him to start scumhunting by now rather than questioning people. I would definitely expect him to have called out the lurkers, and I would definitely expect him to be more actively involved in the game rather than just sitting around asking questions. It's no good asking questions if you don't respond to the answers.

Which you ignore in your response to Ortohoops about 18 hours later

Their actions were bizarre enough for players of their standards - they've had multiple pressing cases against them in areas not even crumb-outing related

Now, that seems completly untrue to me. What valid argument was there made against me that wasn't entirely based on that one post of Nuwen's?

I'm not sure why you're accusing ME of skimming the thread, when you're apparently not reading my posts...

Tu quoque? I was addressing this all from a "Catch up" perspective - meaning I hadn't read that post yet.

Well, sure. I mean, we *were* trying to not get lynched at the time, so yeah, I was worried about how we would appear. Worring about appearances in general may be a scum tell, but it's certanly not one when you're fighting for your life.

Misleading. You weren't under fear for your life at the time you had the conversation.

[Yosariwen]

Yosariwen (the total contradiction in explaining the crumb-outing is enough for a vote for me

You need to explain this. Now. Because I have not contradicted myself at all, and as far as I can see, neither has Nuwen. And from where i sit, right now it looks like you've from lurking all game to just making stuff up in order to find an excuse to get on the yoswagon.

Yos, this is the post I am referring to. It doesn't matter whwther or not the contradiction is true - what matters is that you accused him of making stuff up, and you seemed completely unaware of what he was talking about, even though J-Scope had already pointed it out.

Except I had already responded to that J-scope post before then, and had explained this.

Actually, that was Nuwen, and I'm not sure why she did. I rather wish she hadn't, considering; I feel that it was a mistake.

Mmhm, but I wanted to run the idea by my hydra partner prior. We came to the consensus that although the chance of a mislynch is lower, the cost to town is far higher. But that rough probability is a good item to keep in mind when approaching any future claims.

These two don’t add up. How can they both be true?

FoS: Yosariwen

Timing. When I made that post, I had talked with Nuwen yet, and I had no idea what she was thinking when she questioned Incomn's role. We later had a detailed mafia theory discussion about it.

And I thought it was pretty clear then; I had no idea at the time I'd have to explain the same damn thing 5 times. Note this was long before Hogfather attacked me on that issue. So, yeah, I didn't think there was any contradiction at this point; I thought that misunderstanding had already been resolved.

Why would you think I "hadn't read J-scope's post" here, when I had alredy responded to it?

Similarly, we made a number of points here

Yos is also not his usual self. I would expect yos to be slightly more angry at this point in his wagon rather than conciliatory. I would also have expected him to start scumhunting by now rather than questioning people. I would definitely expect him to have called out the lurkers, and I would definitely expect him to be more actively involved in the game rather than just sitting around asking questions. It's no good asking questions if you don't respond to the answers.

To respond to this: I don't generally get angry if someone attacks me for things that make sense to me. I understand why people thought Nuwen's origional post looked anti-town, so that didn't make me angry. On the other hand, people who have kept attacking me for the same misunderstaning over and over even after I've explained it multiple times were making me angry.

As for the scumhunting: Eh, fair enough. I've had to spend so much time defending myself, I haven't done as much scumhunting as I normally would be doing in a speed game. I'm trying to rectify this now, especally with my vote on Raging wishbone.

Well, sure. I mean, we *were* trying to not get lynched at the time, so yeah, I was worried about how we would appear. Worring about appearances in general may be a scum tell, but it's certanly not one when you're fighting for your life.

Misleading. You weren't under fear for your life at the time you had the conversation.

Really? let me see...

Looking back at the thread...I believe the conversation happend Thursday night, close to 9:00 PM, a few hours before Nuwen made our Yosariween post #8. Looking at the most recent votecount, we had 5 votes on us already then, and the main topic of conversation was the attack on us. So, yeah, we were "in fear of our life" at that point.

[whoami8]

Zmd, PokeTheAlpaca, Death the Hogfather and A&B all need to seriously step up their contributions to this game.

Yos I've been asking you to scum hunt for a day or so now. The reasons for your vote on RW isn't incredibly logical if you stop to think about it.

[Yosariwen]

The reasons for your vote on RW isn't incredibly logical if you stop to think about it.

Sure they are.

When RW thought I was going to be lynched without his help, he defended me, trying to position himself so he'd look good when I died.

THen, when hogfather unvoted me and it looked like I might survive, he voted me, to make sure that didn't happen. The reasons for his switch were very weak, and made very little sense.

The whole flip there really looks like a scum manuever.

[Zmd]

well a cursory read of this thread has told me yosariwen, incamnito and zaphod are town

i'd vote for frog dodging but my better half apparently already had the right idea

This is an excellent early quote from scum Trotsky calling out three people as town. It's undoubtedly going to be labelled wifom, but I don't think rofl (I presume it was him) wouldn't put in a scumbuddy if he was going to make these early claims.

So, if one were to be scum, who is worth looking at?

Incog/camn already flipped town. So either Yos/Nuwen or DGB/Plum. I'd say Yos/Nuwen would be more likely.

Also, notice the attack on Frog Dodging. I'd say that gives small townie points to Frog Dodging. Not much though because early distancing is entirely possible.

Plus now we've just confirmed that it was the scum kill, unless the scum has decided that killing one of their own power roles would be a good idea for today.

Yosariwen is the way to go right now, guys.

Or maybe a SK killed rofl/korts.

Probably was a scum kill though with the early crumbs.

I can agree about Yosariwen though.

Vote Trotsky

. Communist scum!

Win.

Because scum

never

vote their buddies in the RVS, right?

Which I took to mean that ZMD also listens to Portishead or should relate to the joke vote on some level. If anything, in the back of my mind I was wondering if "Portishead" was an inside joke or some clue to another game they had played together in. So I wanted a reaction from them that might confirm something along those lines.

I'd never heard of Portishead until that post. If camn was using an inside joke, it would probably have been directed at me and something from a past game. This was not the case here.

And very little has come from you overall. More than 100 posts into the serious business of the game and you can't say anything useful?

I gave my reads along with a PBPA on my top suspect. I've commented on everything that I see as important. Not sure what more could be useful.

Oh and lastly Apples and Bannas trying to get someone modkilled does not sit well with me at all.

How do you know for sure it was them?

And even if it was, Sens would do that as town. See Mini 650. He tried to get Corvuus modkilled for dropping a town tell in MD. Sens was town in that game.

...and you are right I should not have taken his/her word for it without reading! I trusted her/him.

Why?

Unvote Vote : Sex with shafted.

This is a good wagon.

With a wagon at L-2 already, why?

attempt to prevent the town from lynching further into day 2 noted

Attempt not to answer my question noted!

Why did you write Apple and Bannanas tried to get YoSo modkilled?

UNVOTE: VOTE SEXwithED

Weird wagon jump.

Is the rest of the scum team Yoso/nuwen and sexed?

God you suck at this game. I thought I was bad, but jesus. Why in the hell would scum super bus their remaining partner on D2? Get your head out of your ass.

Because the lynch looks likely already and "super bussing" makes you look good.

vote: ZMD

Any reason other than having a hard time keeping up?

What updates do you have to your first scumlist, if any? Who is most likely to be scum right now? Who is his/her most likely partner?

I planned on updating at the end of the post, but I'll do it now.

New list (Green numbers note move towards towniness. Red are scummy moves. Towniest still at top. Scummiest at bottom.):
Town
Zmd: +/-0
Zaphod Beeblebrox: +/-0
Ortohoops: +/-0

Neutral
Pesco-Light

+6

Frog Dodging

+3

J-Scope

+1

PoketheAlpaca

-3

Death the Hogfather

+3

Apples and Banana +/-0

Scum
sex w/ shafteds wife club

-3

Yosariwen

-6

Raging Wishbone +/-0

257 - Walt's is way overreacting, and according to our qt was rather drunk at this point.

What QT?

I assume they made a QT for the hydra.

KMD, you claim to have some sort of secret meta tell on me. What's your take?

You haven't dropped the tell yet.

I have to go now, but I've read up enough that I realize Yos/Nuwen is much more likely a lynch than Raging Wishbone.

Unvote, Vote Yosariwen

Raging Wishbone is still my top suspect.

[Saunt Adelaus]

nyballosulgniirkps (Kison+springlullaby) replaces Pesco Light. Thanks for replacing in!

[whoami8]

The reasons for your vote on RW isn't incredibly logical if you stop to think about it.

Sure they are.

When RW thought I was going to be lynched without his help, he defended me, trying to position himself so he'd look good when I died.

THen, when hogfather unvoted me and it looked like I might survive, he voted me, to make sure that didn't happen. The reasons for his switch were very weak, and made very little sense.

The whole flip there really looks like a scum manuever.

Ah I see your point upon rereading. I think you're earlier mention you highlighted the reluctance to be the hammer but happy to be the L-1 vote which doesn't make much difference.

[Yosariwen]

Shit. I think that was a hammer.

[whoami8]

Shit. I think that was a hammer.

Yes I think so.

I believe we go to a period of "twilight" where nothing can happen before we get a reveal. If you're town Yos, get some last words in.

[Frog Dodging]

Looking back at the thread...I believe the conversation happend Thursday night, close to 9:00 PM, a few hours before Nuwen made our Yosariween post #8. Looking at the most recent votecount, we had 5 votes on us already then, and the main topic of conversation was the attack on us. So, yeah, we were "in fear of our life" at that point.

Timestamp of my original "whoa, crumbs" post: Sun Apr 26, 2009 7:45 pm (CST)

Conversation with Yos: Sunday, April 26, 2009 8:52:11 PM (CST)

[nyballosulgniirkps]

Who did just got hammered? I see no vote this page.

Hi btw. Catching up.

[whoami8]

There's been no scum kill today. With the amount of time Yos was at L-1 it would have been a twofer for scum to kill someone and thus force a mis-lynch. On the other hand, if Yos was scum, HAD they killed they would have sacrificed one of their own in order to land a kill during the day. This would have been avoided had a bus'ing partner recused themselves from voting Yos. Addin in the pickle the scum were in due to losing a RB day one, I am guessing that if Yos flips scum his wagon almost has to be pure town. Making his the non-Yos voters the remaining place to look for scum.

Now obviously Yos hasn't flipped yet. And there could have been a Doc/RB interference in an earlier scum kill attempt. But keep this in mind given a Yoswen-scum flip.

[whoami8]

Who did just got hammered? I see no vote this page.

Hi btw. Catching up.

Yoswen was finally hammered

Welcome Kinglullaby

[Raging Wishbone]

The reasons for your vote on RW isn't incredibly logical if you stop to think about it.

Sure they are.

When RW thought I was going to be lynched without his help, he defended me, trying to position himself so he'd look good when I died.

THen, when hogfather unvoted me and it looked like I might survive, he voted me, to make sure that didn't happen. The reasons for his switch were very weak, and made very little sense.

The whole flip there really looks like a scum manuever.

Ah I see your point upon rereading. I think you're earlier mention you highlighted the reluctance to be the hammer but happy to be the L-1 vote which doesn't make much difference.

This was actually an extremely long exchange which consisted of four pages and I think lasted over six hours and I became extremely sloppy as the night came to an end. I am comfortable with my vote on Yos, even at putting them at L1 and will answer any questions if they flip Town. After putting more thought into the matter I feel it was a good lynch, I began the day defending them because I was not confident that the bread crumbing was enough for them to be wagoned as hard as they were. I wanted to start a discussion which would generate a dilaog to invloved more players and more opinions. I felt the responses on why yoso was the best lynch by other players who added their thoughts seemed reasonable. I was not impressed by Nuwens long post at the end of the evening, I felt thier were contradictions and errors in logic. The im conversation really hit a nerve and reminded me of how in LB, scum used the posting of daytalk to make themselves seem more Townie. Some of the daytalk from the scum teams were the most convincing. After having gone through that extremely long day/night, I felt good about casting my vote. I do believe that is a lynch and we will find out shortly if it was good or not.

[whoami8]

nyballosulgniirkps (Kison+springlullaby) replaces Pesco Light. Thanks for replacing in!

what was the problem with Pesco Light btw?

[Saunt Adelaus]

Pesco Light requested replacement.

Votecount as of post 347:

Yosariwen:

7

:Frog Dodging, sex w/ shafteds wife club, Ortohoops, Apples and Banana, Pesco Light, Raging Wishbone, Zmd
Raging Wishbone:

2

:Zaphod Beeblebrox, Yosariwen
sex w/ shafteds wife club:

1

:PoketheAlpaca,
Ortohoops:

1

:J-Scope,
Zmd:

1

:Death the Hogfather,

not voting:

0

:

while 12 are alive, 7 votes will lynch

Yosariwen, an Armenian mafia doctor, was lynched on Sat May 02, 2009 at 8:28 pm. It is now twilight. Twilight expires between 6 and 18 hours from the time the last vote on Yosariwen was cast.