Newbie 767 - Game Over!

[Korlash]

I didn't count your vote in the above, so according to my count it would be 9 (3 before+vote+ 5 after). I didn't count all interactions because some of them were just defences, not attacks. I was trying to count just attacks. I tried not to, but I might still have miscounted. Which ones did I miss?

The stuff on an earlier page having to deal with him being L-1 happy. It happened a good 10 pages before I voted him but that doesn't mean it's ignoreable.

I do. I've asked him two questions, one he did answer, and another he didn't yet. I don't have much on him to question yet.

Ok I suppose I've lost track of the stuff with Mikey due to the fact he isn't posting.

Do you think my questions don't make sense? Or is it just that I've been pushing him and you the most that doesn't make sense?

I remember reading one or two particular questions or attacks against him from you that I just found to make no sense what-so-ever. I think I had just scanned the thread right before I said this and so they stuck out to me. Let me go back and see if I can't find them..

Rereading I think it's the "failure to agree" thing you pressed on him. I just found that entire line of questioning on your part to be senseless and alittle reaching. I mean "Why did you not add your agreement?" I just don't see the point in a question like that. It's way to specific in a subject that should be broader and it seems untown to do that.

Let me explain that, you are pretty much asking him why he was so quiet on the Muzzz wagon yes? So instead of saying "Why didn't you respond to this one specific point?" you should just be saying "Why didn't you comment on anything?" It just doesn't make sense to use that as a main point unless you are going to question him on every post he didn't comment on.

That actually looks to be the only attack from you I don't like. I might have been tired when I wrote that last post of mine so I might have made it look like a bigger deal then it was.

I also found it strange that you would mention "not cop". I was expecting a "town/not town" read. I'm going to read the game you were both in together. I assume it was NG 700, from Platypus' IGMEOY post?

Yup, he was the cop. (unless I've gotten my games mixed up in which case forget everything I've said on the topic.)

I cannot give a town/not town answer. I haven't played with him as scum, and people act differently from a power role and a vanilla town. They even act differently with different power roles. And I'm not even completely sure he isn't the cop. Like I said thats only if I HAD to guess.

[Phelan]

I didn't count your vote in the above, so according to my count it would be 9 (3 before+vote+ 5 after). I didn't count all interactions because some of them were just defences, not attacks. I was trying to count just attacks. I tried not to, but I might still have miscounted. Which ones did I miss?

The stuff on an earlier page having to deal with him being L-1 happy. It happened a good 10 pages before I voted him but that doesn't mean it's ignoreable.

Thanks.
You're definitely right, I missed that. Next time I'll try to be more thorough.
The posts I missed: 107, 112, 121, 126, 139
These were before his absence and return.
When you came back you mentioned you remembered being suspicious of Plat and Arch, but not being sure why(post 252). Had you forgotten that previous discussion with Muzzz, since you didn't mention him?

Do you think my questions don't make sense? Or is it just that I've been pushing him and you the most that doesn't make sense?

I remember reading one or two particular questions or attacks against him from you that I just found to make no sense what-so-ever. I think I had just scanned the thread right before I said this and so they stuck out to me. Let me go back and see if I can't find them..

Rereading I think it's the "failure to agree" thing you pressed on him. I just found that entire line of questioning on your part to be senseless and alittle reaching. I mean "Why did you not add your agreement?" I just don't see the point in a question like that. It's way to specific in a subject that should be broader and it seems untown to do that.

Let me explain that, you are pretty much asking him why he was so quiet on the Muzzz wagon yes? So instead of saying "Why didn't you respond to this one specific point?" you should just be saying "Why didn't you comment on anything?" It just doesn't make sense to use that as a main point unless you are going to question him on every post he didn't comment on.

That actually looks to be the only attack from you I don't like. I might have been tired when I wrote that last post of mine so I might have made it look like a bigger deal then it was.

Yes, I didn't mean it in relation to just that point, I meant it for the whole discussion. I was trying to say that even when you don't have your own different points to make, you can agree with other's points, and press the player yourself.
I pointed out your agreement with Archaist as an example.

I think it is scummy to just agree and don't press, so I was also trying to see if he was consciously avoiding scummy behaviour, because I thought it could be a scumtell. I've changed my opinion on that.

I also found it strange that you would mention "not cop". I was expecting a "town/not town" read. I'm going to read the game you were both in together. I assume it was NG 700, from Platypus' IGMEOY post?

Yup, he was the cop. (unless I've gotten my games mixed up in which case forget everything I've said on the topic.)

I cannot give a town/not town answer. I haven't played with him as scum, and people act differently from a power role and a vanilla town. They even act differently with different power roles. And I'm not even completely sure he isn't the cop. Like I said thats only if I HAD to guess.

Yeah, that makes sense. I haven't read the whole game yet, but I agree, he does seem to be playing differently here.

[Phelan]

How do you feel about Platypus now?

I think I mentioned this earlier, but I may not have. He's my number two suspect after Mikey. I think his role in the lynching was suspect (poor arguments, leaving his vote on,

claiming today that he was surprised anyone voted with him

), and I don't think there's been any mitigating information to make him less suspicious to me than he was yesterday.

Where did he claim that?

Did you know you didn't mention the poor arguments before day two, just the vote-leaving?

I had looked at your posts before posting 422, and saved a few notes, which I've now checked back on.

You didn't attack Platypus that much on day 1, for someone you believed to be scum. Just 6 posts out of 27 were directed at him.
You seem to just plop a vote on him, and then go after others. Then you remember your vote is still on him and post again.

I had quoted the post below(which you omitted from your quote. Why?) because it promised details which never came, until now. This is a bit of a theme in your Platypus suspicions:

Platypus, I believe I've given explanations earlier. When I get a proper chance, though, I'll go back through my posts and highlight the pertinent details. Most tellingly, I think, and something I haven't brought up yet: You've had 3 votes on you for the majority of the game time so far, and there's been nary a peep or protest from you. It's as though you're hoping that by lying low long enough, people will just get bored on move on. The longer we go with votes on you, and you being under-responsive, the more I'm ready to lynch you.

Post by post:
149: You see a possibility of Platypus and Wolf(now Mikey) as a scum pair, so you vote Platypus and ask Wolf to put him at L-1.
159: You say you wanted to promote some drama and get people talking. You attack Platypus for not having done so.
174,175: These seemed more like requests for clarification than attacks. Were you trying to attack him here?
185: You say Platypus has not eluded suspicion enough for someone who has 3 votes. However, you were the one to place the third vote on him. I might be wrong, but this seems like the kind of circular logic Porkens was criticized for using in his "vote. Please claim" post and explanations.
232:This has a note about Platypus having the second lowest word per post ratio.
264: You are comfortable lynching Platypus, because he's the most suspicious for you. No other reasons given.
271: The above post. You never highlighted the "pertinent details" after this. You criticize him again for being at 3 votes for a long time and doing nothing about it.
After this, the Muzzz wagon unfolds. You poke in once or twice and post nothing, according to what you've said.
Your next post was on day two.
359: You vote Mikey because of the hammer. You apparently still feel strongly about Platypus, almost to the point of voting, but again post no reasons.

HoS: MordyS

Did I miss something? Did I get something wrong? Let me know.
I'd like to hear some more details on your Platypus case. What were you going to post before deciding to vote for Mikey? What were the pertinent details mentioned above?

[Claus]

Vote Count

MordyS 2 - Archaist, Korlash
Mickey77 1 - MordyS

Not Voting:

Platypus_Dude, Mickey77, Phelan, Delathi

With 7 people alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

[MordyS]

Where did he claim that?

Playpus writes in Post 141: "No. Did I think people would vote for Muzzz based off what I said? No."

Are you understanding that differently than I am?

Did I miss something? Did I get something wrong? Let me know.
I'd like to hear some more details on your Platypus case. What were you going to post before deciding to vote for Mikey? What were the pertinent details mentioned above?

First of all, I don't think six posts attacking someone is a light amount, particularly as one of those posts contained a vote (which, I know, Korlash doesn't see as particularly meaningful, but to which I disagree). My post linking Wolf to Platypus wasn't merely a speculation, but, if you read it, an attempt to explain what I felt was suspicious behavior in the light of a greater relationship. I wasn't randomly picking two people and saying they might be a scum pair. (If you disagree, please post it and specify what is bothering you there.)

185: You say Platypus has not eluded suspicion enough for someone who has 3 votes. However, you were the one to place the third vote on him. I might be wrong, but this seems like the kind of circular logic Porkens was criticized for using in his "vote. Please claim" post and explanations.

That would only be circular logic if I said, "I voted for you because you have had 3 votes on you." I didn't. I said that his response to having 3 votes on him was underwhelming, and I continue to feel that way. I've been led to understand that the M.O. of scum is keeping a low profile and remaining as subtle and unhelpful as possible, and that's what I'm pointing to here. When Korlash and Archaist voted for me, I tried to address their concerns as often as possible and in long defenses. I've attempted to answer every question posed at me. (Which reminds me, Archaist and Korlash both still have votes on me - which of your questions have I not answered to your satisfaction?) When Platypus was under attack, he completely ignored the circumstances and barely responded. This argument was confirmed when I did a post analysis and saw how little of content Platypus had posted overall.

264: You are comfortable lynching Platypus, because he's the most suspicious for you. No other reasons given.

What's your question here? Of course I'm comfortable lynching the most suspicious person. Isn't that how this game works?

You vote Mikey because of the hammer. You apparently still feel strongly about Platypus, almost to the point of voting, but again post no reasons.

The reasons were basically a combination of the amount Platypus had participated in the lynch and my previous suspicions (his low post rate, his attempts to stay off-the-radar). Moreso, something like "No. Did I think people would vote for Muzzz based off what I said? No." is very suspicious to me. You don't vote for someone unless you want others to vote with you. And my final reason was that Porkens had led the 3-vote assault on Platypus on the First Day. It makes sense, in that context, that he'd be the one nightkilled.

[Phelan]

Where did he claim that?

Playpus writes in Post 141: "No. Did I think people would vote for Muzzz based off what I said? No."

Are you understanding that differently than I am?

I was. I didn't read it as surprise. I guess it depends on the tone you read it with.

Did I miss something? Did I get something wrong? Let me know.
I'd like to hear some more details on your Platypus case. What were you going to post before deciding to vote for Mikey? What were the pertinent details mentioned above?

First of all, I don't think six posts attacking someone is a light amount, particularly as one of those posts contained a vote (which, I know, Korlash doesn't see as particularly meaningful, but to which I disagree). My post linking Wolf to Platypus wasn't merely a speculation, but, if you read it, an attempt to explain what I felt was suspicious behavior in the light of a greater relationship. I wasn't randomly picking two people and saying they might be a scum pair. (If you disagree, please post it and specify what is bothering you there.)

I think it has been said before, probably in regard to that post, that trying to find associations without a scum body is not helpful. In that regard, it's speculation. It can generate theories, but is not conclusive. I also didn't like that in that post you also wanted Wolf to "disprove" your theory by putting Platypus at L-1. It looks like you are trying to trick or threaten him into it.

185: You say Platypus has not eluded suspicion enough for someone who has 3 votes. However, you were the one to place the third vote on him. I might be wrong, but this seems like the kind of circular logic Porkens was criticized for using in his "vote. Please claim" post and explanations.

That would only be circular logic if I said, "I voted for you because you have had 3 votes on you." I didn't. I said that his response to having 3 votes on him was underwhelming, and I continue to feel that way. I've been led to understand that the M.O. of scum is keeping a low profile and remaining as subtle and unhelpful as possible, and that's what I'm pointing to here. When Korlash and Archaist voted for me, I tried to address their concerns as often as possible and in long defenses. I've attempted to answer every question posed at me. (Which reminds me, Archaist and Korlash both still have votes on me - which of your questions have I not answered to your satisfaction?) When Platypus was under attack, he completely ignored the circumstances and barely responded. This argument was confirmed when I did a post analysis and saw how little of content Platypus had posted overall.

My reasoning for the possible circular logic was this:
You feel suspicious about him, so you put him at 3 votes. You don't push him, so he doesn't respond. He's at 3 votes and isn't responding, so you feel suspicious about him.

264: You are comfortable lynching Platypus, because he's the most suspicious for you. No other reasons given.

What's your question here? Of course I'm comfortable lynching the most suspicious person. Isn't that how this game works?

No question, I was pointing to the fact that you say you're suspicious of him, but don't mention any reasons.

You vote Mikey because of the hammer. You apparently still feel strongly about Platypus, almost to the point of voting, but again post no reasons.

The reasons were basically a combination of the amount Platypus had participated in the lynch and my previous suspicions (his low post rate, his attempts to stay off-the-radar). Moreso, something like "No. Did I think people would vote for Muzzz based off what I said? No." is very suspicious to me. You don't vote for someone unless you want others to vote with you. And my final reason was that Porkens had led the 3-vote assault on Platypus on the First Day. It makes sense, in that context, that he'd be the one nightkilled.

This last argument creates WIFOM: If it makes sense that Platypus scum would nightkill Porkens, it could also make sense that scum would frame Platypus by nightkilling Porkens.
It's best if you don't base your arguments on nightkills, I think.
I think the only thing we can draw from them is that they killed an innocent, because we can see the flip.

[Phelan]

Finished reading NG 700. Korlash replaced in twice!
Seems a bit unfair, although people seemed to have spotted your change in play. I didn't see the change myself. It was a fun read.
The next of your games I read, I'll try to avoid knowing beforehand who is who, it spoiled my fun a bit.

[Phelan]

delathi, why didn't you vote for MordyS when you posted 375?

You were suspicious of him the previous day, enough to vote for him. Why didn't you do the same today, since he just added another suspicious thing to what you had before?

[delathi]

delathi, why didn't you vote for MordyS when you posted 375?

You were suspicious of him the previous day, enough to vote for him. Why didn't you do the same today, since he just added another suspicious thing to what you had before?

Because, as I said, I was starting to get a feeling that he is more of an arrogant ass than a scummy mafia. I'm still on the fence on it actually, his pulling back on a number of things and more conciliatory tone has both made me view him as more likely to have been misunderstood and also more likely to be trying to make nice and not be perceived as scum.

My best analogy is that at the start of the day, he had one good point and one bad point and I couldn't decide. Now he has two good points and two bad points.

[Claus]

I will be away from tomorrow to the 5th of May. It is very unlikely that I will be able to post in this period. After that, everything should be back to normal. Please behave

[Phelan]

That's a pity, Claus, I was going to ask for a prod on Platypus, he hasn't posted in 3 days. And Archaist is close to that as well.
Have a good vacation.

Mikey, how did your presentation go?

[Platypus_Dude]

Playpus writes in Post 141: "No. Did I think people would vote for Muzzz based off what I said? No."

I meant that as, "I didn't expect anyone to follow me." It wasn't that great a case, but I was happy with my vote.

Phelan: You will become paranoid of Korlash being scum after a game with him.

I'm most suspicious of Mikey still, and sorry about not posting. =/

[Phelan]

Phelan: You will become paranoid of Korlash being scum after a game with him.

Who says I'm not paranoid of Korlash being scum right now?

I'm most suspicious of Mikey still, and sorry about not posting. =/

I'll forgive you if you reply to my last post regarding you (415).
There's still two questions there. Why didn't you reply to it when you posted?

Well, Archaist hasn't posted for three days, and I see Mikey hasn't said anything yet... Even Korlash the Prolific is due a prod... Is there some regional holiday I'm missing?

I don't think discussion will advance much until Mikey posts some more (or is replaced), so we can get a better read on him.

[Korlash]

This last argument creates WIFOM: If it makes sense that Platypus scum would nightkill Porkens, it could also make sense that scum would frame Platypus by nightkilling Porkens.
It's best if you don't base your arguments on nightkills, I think.
I think the only thing we can draw from them is that they killed an innocent, because we can see the flip.

This is false actually. You should make arguments on the nightkills. However you need to take everything in.

For one this is a newbie game and Porkens was an IC. I, the other IC, pretty much lead the wagon on a townie. So between the two of us he was the obvious "NK" choice for most if not all newbie scum pairs. Looking at who Porkens was attacking as a possibility of why he was Nightkilled is fine too. In most games that is a legitimate way to start off new days.

I'm not really much into the point in question here. I find it as equally likely Plat killed Porkens for fear as I think Mordy killed Pork to frame Plat. I don't actually think there enough call for a vote either way.

Finished reading NG 700. Korlash replaced in twice!

That's how awesome I am...

Well, Archaist hasn't posted for three days, and I see Mikey hasn't said anything yet... Even Korlash the Prolific is due a prod... Is there some regional holiday I'm missing?

-_-'

[Phelan]

This last argument creates WIFOM: If it makes sense that Platypus scum would nightkill Porkens, it could also make sense that scum would frame Platypus by nightkilling Porkens.
It's best if you don't base your arguments on nightkills, I think.
I think the only thing we can draw from them is that they killed an innocent, because we can see the flip.

This is false actually. You should make arguments on the nightkills. However you need to take everything in.

For one this is a newbie game and Porkens was an IC. I, the other IC, pretty much lead the wagon on a townie. So between the two of us he was the obvious "NK" choice for most if not all newbie scum pairs. Looking at who Porkens was attacking as a possibility of why he was Nightkilled is fine too. In most games that is a legitimate way to start off new days.

However, with that reasoning, there's another possibility: You could have nightkilled Porkens to make it look like the scum framed you. Isn't this WIFOM? This is why I think it's pointless.

I'm not really much into the point in question here. I find it as equally likely Plat killed Porkens for fear as I think Mordy killed Pork to frame Plat. I don't actually think there enough call for a vote either way.

Well, Archaist hasn't posted for three days, and I see Mikey hasn't said anything yet... Even Korlash the Prolific is due a prod... Is there some regional holiday I'm missing?

-_-'

What?

[Korlash]

However, with that reasoning, there's another possibility: You could have nightkilled Porkens to make it look like the scum framed you. Isn't this WIFOM? This is why I think it's pointless.

I don't see how this "frames" me at all. a general feeling amoung newbies is that one IC is town and one is scum. It's insane for any scum IC to NK the other as it throws this coomon pressure on them. In addition, I had been pushing for Porken's lynch. In fact I had made a pretty big deal in making sure my case on him wasn't necessarily linked to Muzzz. NKing him would have cost me a much built up mislynch opprotunity.

The WIFOM here would be if I was trying to use his death to clear me, which I'm not. I'm just saying it's hardly likely he was killed for the sole purpose of framing me.

What?

Not sure which one you are "what"ing me about so I'll explain both.

I think it is as equally possible Plat killed Porkens as it is Mordy killed him. Because of this I find the actual speculation irrelevant in this situation. This is a little confusing as I just called you out on it not being irrelevant but I was refereing to it as a whole there and as this individual situation now.

The face was for saying I needed prodding...

what satisfied, I'm shuting down...

[Phelan]

However, with that reasoning, there's another possibility: You could have nightkilled Porkens to make it look like the scum framed you. Isn't this WIFOM? This is why I think it's pointless.

I don't see how this "frames" me at all. a general feeling amoung newbies is that one IC is town and one is scum. It's insane for any scum IC to NK the other as it throws this coomon pressure on them. In addition, I had been pushing for Porken's lynch. In fact I had made a pretty big deal in making sure my case on him wasn't necessarily linked to Muzzz. NKing him would have cost me a much built up mislynch opprotunity.

The WIFOM here would be if I was trying to use his death to clear me, which I'm not. I'm just saying it's hardly likely he was killed for the sole purpose of framing me.

I see. I was going to say that I hadn't felt that way, but when I thought about it, I did. At the start you both felt town to me, but I then shifted more towards Porkens. It seemed to me he was doing suspicious things for unsuspicious reasons.
Are you saying that if one of two opposite nightkill cases is more likely than the other, then there is no WIFOM, so it's more viable for the night kill to be analyzable?
To me it still seems murky territory. I don't think I'll be using that until I understand it better.

What?

Not sure which one you are "what"ing me about so I'll explain both.

I think it is as equally possible Plat killed Porkens as it is Mordy killed him. Because of this I find the actual speculation irrelevant in this situation. This is a little confusing as I just called you out on it not being irrelevant but I was refereing to it as a whole there and as this individual situation now.

The face was for saying I needed prodding...
what satisfied, I'm shuting down...

The "what" was just about the smiley, I wasn't sure what you meant by it.

[Archaist]

I've been led to understand that the M.O. of scum is keeping a low profile and remaining as subtle and unhelpful as possible, and that's what I'm pointing to here. When Korlash and Archaist voted for me, I tried to address their concerns as often as possible and in long defenses. I've attempted to answer every question posed at me.

Mafia will not necessarily act with a low profile and try to be subtle. This is yet another example of how you claim some trait is scummy, and then show how you act in the opposite manner.

[Korlash]

Are you saying that if one of two opposite nightkill cases is more likely than the other, then there is no WIFOM, so it's more viable for the night kill to be analyzable?
To me it still seems murky territory. I don't think I'll be using that until I understand it better.

There will always be wifom in situations like this. However, I'm not the type of person to just completely ignore things just because they are partly based on or are in and of themselves wifom.

Take the "If I was scum, why would I have not killed the cop who was going to investigate me?" wifom statement. Just because it is wifom doesn't mean it should be ignored, it should be analysed. This particular statement needs a lot of game specific analization.

Wifom is a term that as been overused and distorted by the mafia community. It's become a sort of fallback word to dismiss people's attacks without having to actually argue the point. You should learn early and often to try and use the actual term wifom as little as possible and in the cases when you do be absolutely certain it is in fact wifom.

That was all just a little piece of advice... none of that pertains to this specific game...

This particular game has two distinct (Probably more) arguments about night kill wifom. 1, Plat killed Porkens for fear of him and another wagon being started. and 2, Mordy killed Porkens to specifically frame Plat. Neither seem more likely then the other, and quite frankly neither seem to have any really ood evidence to support it anyways. Mordy hasn't really been pushing plat today so I doubt that his whole plan was to mislynch him off the nightkill, and as there are two scum I'm not going to assume Plat held full control of who to nightkill if he was scum. (Not to mention that by killing Porkens he would bring about more suspicion on himself for his death, which could create a new wagon on him anyways.)

I just don't see speculating on who killed Porkens or why bringing anything new and useful to light.

[Platypus_Dude]

Were there other things before these 'final straws'?

Yes. Muzzz was jumpy to vote people. Specifically, people with a lot of votes. There are also other things that sparked my vote if you wish for me to get those.

What about your initial reason for the vote being a joke he made? Why did you keep the vote after he had said it was a joke?

I was still fine with my vote, and I thought he wasn't exactly telling the truth when he said it was a joke.

My schedule is clearing up, so I'm hoping I'll be able to post ~once a day again.

[MordyS]

So is Mickey MIA?

[Korlash]

Aye, but so is the mod so we will have to deal with it for a bit...

[MordyS]

[quote='Archaist']Mafia will not necessarily act with a low profile and try to be subtle. This is yet another example of how you claim some trait is scummy, and then show how you act in the opposite manner.[/quote]

Feel free to explain this argument at any time. From the games I've read (admittedly only a dozen), it is assumed that those who remain the most quiet are the most suspicious. If you've seen otherwise, please explain. It makes logical sense that the mafia would not want to say a whole lot (and therefore give a lot away). It does not make logical sense that they would. Me pointing this out isn't "yet another example" of anything. It's common sense.

[Claus]

Sorry for the delay. I'm back from my trip.

[Claus]

Vote Count

MordyS 2 - Archaist, Korlash
Mickey77 1 - MordyS

Not Voting:

Platypus_Dude, Mickey77, Phelan, Delathi

With 7 people alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Prodding Delathi and Mickey