Mini 737 - Hack Poetry Mafia (Game Over)

[Spolium]

sekinj, same question to you as goat:

Question for you: if I was scum attempting a NK on N1, what reason would I have to think I was being roleblocked, as opposed to the target being protected?

[Rhinox]

Rhin - B) Innocent


spring - How many scum do we have remaining? We could have 2 scum left. Spoilum sent in the kill N1 and was blocked, and the second night scum2 sent in the kill and was successful.

Interesting...

My results actually said A) Not Guilty.

Therefore, I believe sekinj is lying and we have found scum.

vote: sekinj

[Goatrevolt]

Is it normal for someone to be told they're a doc but actually be a jailkeeper?

No. Jailkeeper is a variation on the doc role, but generally it's given as an entirely separate role.

That would mean Spring is probably a jailkeeper. That adds another possible reason for the lack of kill night 1. Spolium tried to make the kill and was blocked.

Question for you: if I was scum attempting a NK on N1, what reason would I have to think I was being roleblocked, as opposed to the target being protected?

Sekinj was informed about being roleblocked or is lying (doubtful). Hence, I'm wondering if you were informed about anything at all related to that.

Spolium: Were you informed at all about being roleblocked night 1 or 2?

No.

Ok.

I agree that its looking bad for spolium at the moment. I also want to point out that don and ice can be scum working together here... however, that could just be my paranoia because its hard to argue with the crumb goat found.

Proved watcher doesn't necessarily mean town. Considering there are only two vanilla claims, and I know I'm town, I know for a fact at least one player who has claimed a role is lying scum.

in the same post as the other crumb:

Unlike some others, I didn't find that whole DO "let's lynch a Doctor claim" thing to be scummy. Like I said at the time, seemed more newbish than scummy to me. Rhinox may be a little overly concerned with defense and not enough with offense, but that really isn't enough to put him over the edge. I've played with Rhinox before, and (don't want to talk about it too much because it's an ongoing game) I think I have a better feel for reading Rhinox. Like, you can't really see it here, but I can

track

the way he was pressuring people yesterday to explaining why DO was scummy other than because of that one comment I mentioned. You can argue it might seem a little too defensive, but to me that shows he's interested in getting other player's opinions.

So I guess RC must have tracked me/DO at some point and got no result. That might explain why I was feeling that RC was buddying up to me hard.

Yep, that was the other result. I wanted to see how your claim matched before pointing it out.

And I was blocked. So we have nothing new on the cops. I tried to look at ice.

That would mean Spring is probably a jailkeeper. That adds another possible reason for the lack of kill night 1. Spolium tried to make the kill and was blocked.

This doesn't add up, it's either a slip revealing that you know Spolium attempted to NK N1 or just a crappy argument: I targetted Spolium N2 and there was a kill.

If it is a crappy argument, it is also scummy because of its crappiness.

Really? Seriously? You don't think it's possible Spolium has a scum buddy who is also capable of submitting a night kill and may choose to do so the following night after blockage N1? I'm not sure I follow your argument. Spolium couldn't have failed in a NK attempt N1 because of events that took place the following night?

To put it simply, there were 3 possibilities for the lack of N1 kill:

1. Jebus saved a kill attempt on you.
2. You saved a kill attempt on Spolium
3. Scum didn't submit a kill

Now there is a 4th option:

4. Spolium tried to make the kill and got blocked.

[Spolium]

Sekinj was informed about being roleblocked

or is lying (doubtful)

What makes you say this? Sekinj never said that she was

informed

of being roleblocked.

[Spolium]

Also:

Considering there are only two vanilla claims, and I know I'm town, I know for a fact at least one player who has claimed a role is lying scum.

How do you know for a

fact

that there are two scum remaining?

[don_johnson]

regarding the roles: i am currently in an open off this site and the role of jailkeeper is separate from doc. wiki states that the role of paranoid doctor is identical to jailkeeper, however, and that the player is told they are simply a doctor.

i have never been in a game with a deputy, but i was in a game with a nurse. effectively the nurse took over for doc if doc died. the player who had the role of nurse stated that he could not confirm the existence of the doctor with his role pm, but that he was aware that his role was nurse and the implications of said role. however, wiki states that deputy does begin as a vanillla townie and that there is a variant which knows he is deputy.

i think one of sekinj/rhinox now must be lying due to rhinox' question and sekinj's answer. based on the discrepancies of yesterdays claim(i.e. sekinj not reporting the lack of night 1 results until asked) i am inclined to think sekinj is scum.

[Goatrevolt]

Sekinj was informed about being roleblocked

or is lying (doubtful)

What makes you say this? Sekinj never said that she was

informed

of being roleblocked.

Weak semantics argument? Or did you miss this post:

And I was blocked

. So we have nothing new on the cops. I tried to look at ice.

Don - did yu get anything?
Spring - who did you protect?

Also:

Considering there are only two vanilla claims, and I know I'm town, I know for a fact at least one player who has claimed a role is lying scum.

How do you know for a

fact

that there are two scum remaining?

I don't. I'm making assumptions on what I believe to be the most likely scenario. I'm playing off the idea that there are 3 scum total (I remember we discussed this back in day 2 somewhere). If I'm wrong, then we have 1 less scum to catch. That's far better than being wrong about 2 scum and realizing you have to find 1 more than you thought.

[Spolium]

Weak semantics argument?

Whether or not sekinj received explicit confirmation of being roleblocked affects the assessment that Spring's protection of scum-Spolium caused a lack of NK on N1 (no no, it isn't a semantic argument).

Or did you miss this post:

And I was blocked.

I didn't miss it - I was wondering how you derived that sekinj was "informed" of being roleblocked, when she could have assumed a roleblock based on a lack of investigation result.

_______________

wiki states that the role of paranoid doctor is identical to jailkeeper, however, and that the player is told they are simply a doctor.

Okay, so Spring being a roleblocker is viable. Thanks for that.

_______________

One thing which stands out to me now is the apparent abundance of cop roles.

@Rhinox

- Please paraphrase your deputy role PM.

[Rhinox]

One thing which stands out to me now is the apparent abundance of cop roles.

@Rhinox - Please paraphrase your deputy role PM.

Technically, I don't have a deputy role PM. The Role PM I received when I replaced in was a standard townie PM, with no indication I was a deputy.

When I went to check the thread at the start of the day, I saw I had a message from the mod. It said I was activated as a deputy, and I was given the investigation results of Lynx, as well as a little poem.

[Goatrevolt]

Weak semantics argument?

Whether or not sekinj received explicit confirmation of being roleblocked affects the assessment that Spring's protection of scum-Spolium caused a lack of NK on N1 (no no, it isn't a semantic argument).

Or did you miss this post:

And I was blocked.

I didn't miss it - I was wondering how you derived that sekinj was "informed" of being roleblocked, when she could have assumed a roleblock based on a lack of investigation result.

I derived that sekinj was informed of being roleblocked when she explicitly said: "I was blocked," as crazy as that may sound. Now, maybe she targeted Ice, and he's an untargetable, and the moderator told her that her investigation failed, and she lied and said she was roleblocked instead of simply having a failed investigation, and it just so happens that the player capable of blocking also targeted her last night. I'm inclined to believe my explanation fits better, however.

You're reaching pretty far here.

-----

Rhinox: I'll echo the call for details on your deputy roll PM. I'm interested specifically in how your PM is worded in regards to how you learn results. Meaning, does your PM imply the existence of multiple cops/deny the possibility of multiple cops, etc?

-----

Ice, some questions:

With an already revealed doctor, I

find it extremely hard to believe that we'd have both a second doctor AND a watcher

. Three roles that punish scum for targeting the most pro town targets seems very, very excessive.

Don, did you get any useful results?

QFT

(The jig is up, apparently)

Considering your claim of watcher, why was a watcher + 2nd doc hard to believe?

Vote: don_johnson

If you ignore his claim,

which is now EXTREMELY questionable given the appearance of another claimed investigative role

, then his actions surrounding the early budja wagon become extremely damning.

Spring protects sekinj tonight, and my opinion is that sek should investigate one of {Spolium, Rhinox}, but in the end its up to her.

Why did it take someone else claiming an investigative role for you to vote Don, considering you've claimed an investigative role yourself?

Compare:

Something is very, very wrong with these claims.

It could very well be massclaim time after all of this.

With:

Is anyone vanilla??

maybe the mod put in tons of roles so we would all counter claim and kill each other off. maybe that is how the town is balanced with the scum.

I definitely am ready for a mass claim.

A mass claim right now will just add to the confusion. I think we need to have a lynch and a night to resolve whats wrong with the current claims before we think about massclaiming.

And trying to outguess the mod is a recipe for disaster.

Also, for what should be obvious reasons, nobody should answer whether or not they are vanilla.

You suggest mass claim, but then shoot it down? What changed?

[Spolium]

I derived that sekinj was informed of being roleblocked when she explicitly said: "I was blocked," as crazy as that may sound. Now, maybe she targeted Ice, and he's an untargetable, and the moderator told her that her investigation failed, and she lied and said she was roleblocked instead of simply having a failed investigation, and it just so happens that the player capable of blocking also targeted her last night. I'm inclined to believe my explanation fits better, however.

You're missing the point.

- Sekinj stated "

I was blocked

".
- Spring announced that she targeted sekinj.
- You concluded that Spring targeting me could've been the cause of the lack of NK on N1.
- I asked what reason I would have, as scum, to believe I was roleblocked rather than have targeted a protected player.
- You replied that Sekinj was "informed" about being roleblocked and that you considered it relevant to know whether I was informed of being roleblocked.

I reject the notion that I am "reaching pretty far" - given that sekinj did not clarify whether she was (a) explicity told or (b) just received no result, it is interesting that you asked me a question based on the assumption that (a) was true, particularly when I am more likely to be scum in that scenario than in the other.

Do you actually have any basis for making the assumption?

[Rhinox]

Rhinox: I'll echo the call for details on your deputy roll PM. I'm interested specifically in how your PM is worded in regards to how you learn results. Meaning, does your PM imply the existence of multiple cops/deny the possibility of multiple cops, etc?

See above^^ my previous post.

Until this morning, I was a normal townie, with no indication of being a deputy. This morning, I recieved a PM saying I was activated as a deputy. I was given a list of Lynx's 3 investigations results: N1 Jebus, N2 myself, and N3 Goat all Not guilty. As part of the flavor poem (paraphrased), I was told that I could ensure Lynx's death wasn't for nothing. It also says I assume my role because lynx has died, although it does not specify that I could only replace lynx or if I could replace whichever cop was killed first, if there is more than 1 cop. It gives no indication of how many cops exist.

[Ice9]

don - Watcher
goat - Vanilla
Ice - Watcher
Rhinox - Vanilla/Deputy Cop
sekinj - Cop
Spolium - Vanilla
spring - Doc (Unknowing Jailkeeper?)

There are at most two more scum, meaning at least three of the claimed power roles are true, and thats just the living players. We already have three dead power roles as well. Thats six (strong) town power roles at a minimum.

Between claims and deaths we have
2x cop
2x doc
2x watcher
1x tracker
1x unknowing deputy cop
3x vanilla

RC was indeed right that I was an unclaimed watcher when I was commenting about the pattern of doubled power roles. His death as a tracker actually made me expect another tracker claim to pop up.

Now, as far as the pattern of the roles go, latent deputy cop seems to be the obvious outlier, since all the other roles were active from the start, and a role that starts as vanilla without knowing its actually got a power seems really unusual for a mini normal.

But my other line of thinking here is that, with so many town power roles, the mafia group is going to need a boatload of power itself in order to have a chance of winning. It had a roleblocker - is it so unlikely for it to have a second roleblocker? Remember,

at least

six town power roles are in this setup. One roleblocker hardly seems like enough to stop the onslaught of watching, tracking, protecting and investigating.

----

Considering your claim of watcher, why was a watcher + 2nd doc hard to believe?

Because 2x watcher, 2x doctor seemed like way, way, way too much punishment of the scum for targeting the most pro town targets for nightkills.

Why did it take someone else claiming an investigative role for you to vote Don, considering you've claimed an investigative role yourself?

Because 3x (and later 4x) investigative role claims seems like way, way, way too many investigative roles for the scum to possibly win against. Now that its up to 6x investigative roles between RC's death and Rhin's deputy claim, this is even more true. Between the weight of my inside knowledge of too many protective and pseudoprotective roles AND too many investigative roles, I decided it was time to vote don.

You suggest mass claim, but then shoot it down? What changed?

I realized that as long as nobody knew I was a watcher, I would be able to both confirm that don was visiting who he said he was, and confirm he was in fact a watcher, just by watching the same person. This was better than massclaiming, and also better than lynching don. It worked, as we have in fact confirmed one another as watchers.

----

Working theory:

Spring is a second mafia roleblocker. After no one counterclaimed budja and she had been run up, she counterclaimed her own scumpartner under the false assumption that there just wasn't a doctor at all, in order to survive the day herself and hopefully get falsecleared for the remainder of the game.

Somebody is a mafia godfather - I seriously doubt both of the remaining cop claims are false, which means there were two cops of one form or another in this setup at the beginning. My sense of balance is telling me that 2x mafia rb + mafia gf vs approx. 6 town power roles including two cops seems balanced-ish.

[Goatrevolt]

I derived that sekinj was informed of being roleblocked when she explicitly said: "I was blocked," as crazy as that may sound. Now, maybe she targeted Ice, and he's an untargetable, and the moderator told her that her investigation failed, and she lied and said she was roleblocked instead of simply having a failed investigation, and it just so happens that the player capable of blocking also targeted her last night. I'm inclined to believe my explanation fits better, however.

You're missing the point.

- Sekinj stated "

I was blocked

".
- Spring announced that she targeted sekinj.
- You concluded that Spring targeting me could've been the cause of the lack of NK on N1.
- I asked what reason I would have, as scum, to believe I was roleblocked rather than have targeted a protected player.
- You replied that Sekinj was "informed" about being roleblocked and that you considered it relevant to know whether I was informed of being roleblocked.

I reject the notion that I am "reaching pretty far" - given that sekinj did not clarify whether she was (a) explicity told or (b) just received no result, it is interesting that you asked me a question based on the assumption that (a) was true, particularly when I am more likely to be scum in that scenario than in the other.

Do you actually have any basis for making the assumption?

She claimed she was blocked. To me that fairly clearly means she was targeted by a roleblocking action. I don't see how it could be interpreted differently. She would be playing a risky and dangerous game claiming to be roleblocked if that was a lie.

This isn't some crazy or absurd suggestion. It's fairly simple and fits the information, but you seem determined to try to undermine the obvious. I didn't even suggest it was the reason for the missing kill night 1, only that it was a possibility, but you seem to either want to get rid of the idea that it should even be on the table as a possibility at all or toss baseless suspicion on me because I assumed that "I got blocked" is the same as "I was targeted by a roleblock" despite the fact that they are synonymous.

Rhinox: I'll echo the call for details on your deputy roll PM. I'm interested specifically in how your PM is worded in regards to how you learn results. Meaning, does your PM imply the existence of multiple cops/deny the possibility of multiple cops, etc?

See above^^ my previous post.

Until this morning, I was a normal townie, with no indication of being a deputy. This morning, I recieved a PM saying I was activated as a deputy. I was given a list of Lynx's 3 investigations results: N1 Jebus, N2 myself, and N3 Goat all Not guilty. As part of the flavor poem (paraphrased), I was told that I could ensure Lynx's death wasn't for nothing. It also says I assume my role because lynx has died, although it does not specify that I could only replace lynx or if I could replace whichever cop was killed first, if there is more than 1 cop. It gives no indication of how many cops exist.

Unfortunate. I was hoping it would shed some light on the possibility or lack thereof of a 2nd cop.

From town->scum: Spring/Rhinox/Don/Ice/Sekinj/Spolium.

Vote Spolium

[sekinj]

Sekinj was informed about being roleblocked

or is lying (doubtful)

What makes you say this? Sekinj never said that she was

informed

of being roleblocked.

qft

[sekinj]

I was not informed of being roleblocked. I gathered that from the supporting evidence. My PM said I investigated Ice but I was not successful and returned no result.

Rhin - I doubt the mod is looking very favorably on our attempts to compare PMs at this point. he may be intentionally adding differences.

[sekinj]

I don't like the don/ice confirming each other thing. I was supicious of don before, and I was obviously suspicious of ice. don may have claim watcher early to get out of being lynched, and now, after discussing how they were goign to compare it and "Confirm" each other duirng the night, ice come backs and claims to be the 2nd watcher. This is only after 2 docs and 2 cops have popped up.

I agree that the mafia probably has multiple roleblockers.

[Goatrevolt]

Spring is a second mafia roleblocker. After no one counterclaimed budja and she had been run up, she counterclaimed her own scumpartner under the false assumption that there just wasn't a doctor at all, in order to survive the day herself and hopefully get falsecleared for the remainder of the game.

What explains the no kill N1 if this is the case?

I was not informed of being roleblocked. I gathered that from the supporting evidence. My PM said I investigated Ice but I was not successful and returned no result.

Rhin - I doubt the mod is looking very favorably on our attempts to compare PMs at this point. he may be intentionally adding differences.

Why claim "I was blocked" if you weren't certain that was the case???

So failed result. Possibilities:

1. You're lying.
2. You were roleblocked.
3. Ice is untargetable or something else that would cause no result.

I don't like the don/ice confirming each other thing. I was supicious of don before, and I was obviously suspicious of ice. don may have claim watcher early to get out of being lynched, and now, after discussing how they were goign to compare it and "Confirm" each other duirng the night, ice come backs and claims to be the 2nd watcher. This is only after 2 docs and 2 cops have popped up.

Don is confirmed to be a watcher. Ice9 is confirmed to have an ability he used to target Spring last night, unless both Ice and Don are scum and put their eggs all in one basket. Based on Ice's push on Don yesterday, I doubt they are scum together. I think both are likely to be what they claim, although that doesn't necessarily speak to alignment.

[sekinj]

Why claim "I was blocked" if you weren't certain that was the case???

because the result of my investigation seemed like I was blocked.

If I was lying, wouldn't I jsut come back and say, you're right, it said I was roleblocked. There's no reason for me to go against the grain now if I am lying. (wifom I know)

[sekinj]

If you had the option of 2 or 3, which one would you say? "I was blocked" or "there may be something with ice's role that makes me get no result"

[sekinj]

Plus - saying "I was blocked" does not exclude your option 3. Whether the block came from a role blocker targeting me, or from somthing in ice's role that caused me to get no result, the fact is something blocked me, so that is what I said.

[Rhinox]

I think this semantics argument is silly, however...

i would have said "I got no result, so I assume I was blocked."

When I read "I was blocked", thats what I assumed.

Rhin - I doubt the mod is looking very favorably on our attempts to compare PMs at this point. he may be intentionally adding differences.

You mean like the

differences

similarities we were using to confirm jebus and spring?

[sekinj]

Rhin - I doubt the mod is looking very favorably on our attempts to compare PMs at this point. he may be intentionally adding differences.

You mean like the

differences

similarities we were using to confirm jebus and spring?

exactly. When we tried to do that again, he told us to desist.

[Rhinox]

Rhin - I doubt the mod is looking very favorably on our attempts to compare PMs at this point. he may be intentionally adding differences.

You mean like the

differences

similarities we were using to confirm jebus and spring?

exactly. When we tried to do that again, he told us to desist.

Good thing we're not comparing PM's then. We're comparing results.

[TonyMontana]

Let me just emphasize that I put a moratorium on discussing the

poetry of the Role PMs.

Short of quoting, discussing other communications I've had over PM is fair game. (Fake quoting is of course also forbidden, and fake paraphrasing is also fair game)

The business of going "it starts with an M, and rhymes with brotherducker" is not acceptable, tho. And I'm not hesitant to modkill. Just sayin.

Also note, that while you may be allowed to paraphrase the content of poetry other than your role PM, I must stress the point that all poetry is mere flavor. The only thing i care about when writing poetry is that it rhymes or fit a poetry form, I do not take into account what you can derive from it. (thus it can be misleading)