Newbie 744 -- Game Over!

[ZazieR]

@Knox
Quick post as I have to go soon. The first quote was at the end of day 1. My next post was during day 2. I remembered Raivann saying that there was an inconsistency, but I didn't look back at that post of his. So when I responded, I didn't know he had asked me that question about the posts in isolation.
Also, Kevin was if I'm correct on vacation at that point.

[ZazieR]

Will respond to post 367 after this post.

Charter, if you are scum, your biggest threats are ICs, not newbs. You suspect both Zazie and myself. Coincidence?

Are you suggesting something here?

Blueshadow was slightly scummier than CnT. And I wasn't looking for a lynch on CnT just yet. My real suspicions on CnT came much later.

You sure?
(^^ two links)
Please explain Kevin.


C_o, anything to say about what has happened so far in this game?

[ZazieR]

This looks to me like either trying to get others to vote blue (horridly scummy) or setting yourself up to go on to his wagon (kind of scummy).

Or it was me saying that what Blue did was scummy, but not scummy enough to change my vote. In my opinion, CntR deserves my vote. However, I was of the opinion that for Blue's action, he should have been pressured. That's why I was saying that he deserved some votes.
You can see in my later posts from day 1, that I had rather CntR lynched. Which I tried at the end of day 1.

As for the posts following 239, I didn't really get what you were saying.

I gave reasons why I believe that SoaD was lying about his opinion of Blue in his post. I also gave reasons why him saying that the opinion he posted about Blue was a joke, is probably lied about as well. I gave reasons why his excuse of not giving his opinion about Blue day 1 is probably lied about. His vote this day against CntR, but no vote day 1 is mentioned. And as last was the fact that he didn't try to defend himself.
All this can be found in post 273, except the last point about him not defending himself which was mentioned in post 298.

If you don't understand one of my arguments, tell me which one. An answer as 'I don't understand what you're saying' is rather vague...

[Kmd4390]

Are you suggesting something here?

I'm suggesting that if he's scum and can get an IC lynched, it works to his advantage.

You sure?
(^^ two links)
Please explain Kevin.

Exactly. Thanks for the links.

That's where my suspicions came from.

You can see in my later posts from day 1, that I had rather CntR lynched. Which I tried at the end of day 1.

Why the sudden change from wanting him lynched to defending him as hard as you have?

[Yaw]

Vote Count:

Conspicuous_other (3): Kmd4390, knox, Raivann
knox (1): ZazieR
charter (1): Conspicuous_other
Kmd4390 (1): charter

Not Voting: alexhans

4 to lynch

[charter]

It's entirely possible both you and ZazieR are scum and I'm rightly suspicious of you.

How many times have you seen a game where both ICs are scum. It just doesn't happen.

This is, once again, a completely fallacious argument. Not going to debate this any more. Scummy of you to try and argue this.

1. Can you refer me the post/s it is? I don't remember it.
2. You can't seriously expect every town newbie in a newbie game to not do something scummy. I still don't see how this one was any indicator of alignment.
3. Pretty much proves my point that that wasn't a reason to vote someone at all. People mention stuff that's dumb all the time as town.

1. 213 and the follow up posts from his and Zazie's defenses on him. Just look for all the posts numbered 1-6.
2. So you want to excuse scummy behavior from newbies? So that's why you are after Zazie and myself. Gotcha.
3. And usually get lynched for it because scum do it more often, amirite?

1. I'll take a look at these in a minute.
2. Ummm, duh. If I lynched every newbie that makes a scummy mistake, I'd win every game as scum and none as town. This is a poor argument, because the so called "scummy" action he did, I don't see why that makes him more likely to be scum. I just think it was clumsy.
3. No. Not arguing 2 or 3 any more. They were both terrible reasons to switch your vote yesterday, and now you're going to be lynched scumbag.

Charter, if you are scum, you biggest threats are ICs, not newbs. You suspect both Zazie and myself. Coincidence?

I'm thinking it's Kmd4390 and

Raivann

Just throwing that out there.

Yes, thank you for this. Do you have anything else to add? It looks to me like I'm defending you more than you are yourself. You should probably start trying to find scum, or you WILL be the deadline lynch. The only real reason I'd prefer you not get lynched is because I have bigger suspects I'd rather see lynched.

@knox in 374. I don't really think there's much to make of that just yet. Are you willing to vote Raivann? I could probably switch off Kmd4390, but his usage of these bad arguments has me wondering even more about him.

@ ZazieR in 377, I'll have another look.

[charter]

So, what are the suspicions on me? If I can get a clearer idea of what they are, I will present my defense.

1) The FoS in the RVS when you weren't voting anyone. I saw this as cautious play matching your meta, but that's wrong as you have been more aggressive lately.

2) The fear of putting SoaD at L-2 which is notable because of your L-1 vote on Ash later.

3) Calling out Dennis for lurking when a few others were worse offenders, specifically Mizz.

4) Also quick to jump on the "lurker" who had posted 30 hours before you called him out.

5) Called Mizz a confused townie and then voted Ash 3 posts later with little reasoning.

6) Placed Ash at L-1 with little reasoning. Looks like you want to lynch pretty quickly there.

1) That's not an actual reason to vote someone. That's a reason to wagon someone in the RVS to see how they react.
2) You said in post 41 "I see that you were cautious as town in Newbie 709, so I won't hold it against you." Now you are holding it against him. Looks like you've flipped on this to give another bad reason for your CntR vote.
3) He asked if dennis had any thoughts. There's nothing scummy or wrong with this. He wasn't casting suspicion on him, until after you questioned him about it.
4) No, he didn't jump on anyone. You made this up in post 62.
5) Sooo, what is scummy about this?
6) The only point of yours I think that holds any water.

Guys. Kmd4390 is scum. All of these happened before he voted blueshadow in post 181 because blueshadow's wagon threatened to be a serious lynch. 1-5 are not valid anyway. 6 is nowhere near enough to lynch someone over. This case has scum backing all over it. I can't believe no one has refuted these points already, especially CntR or Conspicuous Other, because this is a really really weak case. I will have to see who agreed with it after Kmd4390 is revealed scum.

Also, I'll most likely be scarce until monday. I will try and come in and explain to anyone why Kmd is scum if you ask me your questions, but I won't have much free time. I realize this is right before deadline, but it would be tragic to let Kmd live another day.

[charter]

Ok, just to make my point clear. I can not fathom Conspicuous Other being scum. If he was, there would be him and his buddy trying to get someone else lynched. This is not the case. This wagon has mislynch written all over it. ALL OVER IT!

A much better wagon, would be that on Kmd4390. There is not much time, and I am willing to bet that his buddy will slip up as you guys string up Kmd4390 in the next few days. When I get a chance to check back, I am hoping to see at least three votes on Kmd4390.

[Conspicuous_other]

Unvote

Charter has done quite a lot to convince me of the townie-ness of his role. First of all:

Yes. You can check any newbie game I've been scum in, I don't go after the other IC because they are an IC. In fact, I normally NK them on night two. I find it much easier to mislynch newbies. This is also not a valid way of defending yourself. It's entirely possible both you and ZazieR are scum and I'm rightly suspicious of you. [/quote[

I can vouch for this, as I was scumbuddies with charter in a newbie game a little bit ago. I can't really see anyone as scum in that position not going after me, particularly trying to defend me. Knowing I'm town, I'm fairly certain you're town at this point, though I do still have some worries about you due to the actions of the person who preceded you.

Yes, thank you for this. Do you have anything else to add? It looks to me like I'm defending you more than you are yourself.

Yes, sorry about that. I've been being pretty lazy, in this game, but looking at KMDs case against cnt, it all seems to boil down to post 213:

1) The FoS in the RVS when you weren't voting anyone. I saw this as cautious play matching your meta, but that's wrong as you have been more aggressive lately.

2) The fear of putting SoaD at L-2 which is notable because of your L-1 vote on Ash later.

3) Calling out Dennis for lurking when a few others were worse offenders, specifically Mizz.

4) Also quick to jump on the "lurker" who had posted 30 hours before you called him out.

5) Called Mizz a confused townie and then voted Ash 3 posts later with little reasoning.

6) Placed Ash at L-1 with little reasoning. Looks like you want to lynch pretty quickly there.

What's interesting about this (at least to me) is that 3 out of 6 pointsrelate to cnt's putting ash at L-1. We'll forget about point #1, as you've pretty much said yourself that a 1-game meta isn't enough to go off of. For the third point, it's perfectly reasonable to have forgotten about Mizz.Mafia, since she didn't have an avatar, cnt might have skimmed over her post. As for the Fourth, I don't really see what's scummy about this at all. So, we have one nonpoint, two somewhat minor points about attacking lurkers early on, and then three points related to putting ash at L-1. Keep in mind that this exchange between Zazie and Kmd was after ash had essentially made two hammers.

6. This is indeed true. But Ash hammered somebody without ever mentioning Blue, except for the time when he said that he saw CntR as scummier. So what's your opinion of that? And tell me why that's less scummy than what CntR has done.
So in my opinion, the only scummy thing left is him not saying why Ash was scummy to him at that time and not doing so after he was asked.
I think the Ash and SoaD cases are stronger

6. Yes, Ash is scummier based on this point alone. But the hammer is the only major point against Ash. I have 6 valid points on CnT, which I think is enough to consider him scummier than Ash.

Whatnow? Tunnel Vision much?

Anyway, that's all from me tonight. For now,

FOS: Kmd4390

, I'll take a look at some more stuff tomorrow, but if nothing pops out at me I'll bump that up to a vote.

[Conspicuous_other]

Bah, damn my inability to make proper tags at 1 am...

[Raivann]

Charter's case against me is that I join wagons, start wagons, get off wagons, and stay on wagons. None of which is scummy, I'm just playing the game and using my vote as for who I think is most scummy.

Knox's case is that I say one liners , but one of the rules is to have fun , so Knox's case is real lame.

Charter moves into town last week and immediately goes after towns strongest players - our IC's. I find this suspicious. I don't think his counterpoints to Kmd's case are strong either. Saying- your scum I'm not gonna argue your points anymore- is a weak argument. What about my points on CntR?

Ok, just to make my point clear. I can not fathom Conspicuous Other being scum. If he was, there would be him and his buddy trying to get someone else lynched. This is not the case. This wagon has mislynch written all over it. ALL OVER IT!

Whatnow? Tunnel Vision much?

Anyway, that's all from me tonight. For now, FOS: Kmd4390, I'll take a look at some more stuff tomorrow, but if nothing pops out at me I'll bump that up to a vote.

You mean like this?

[Conspicuous_other]

charter wrote:

Ok, just to make my point clear. I can not fathom Conspicuous Other being scum. If he was, there would be him and his buddy trying to get someone else lynched. This is not the case. This wagon has mislynch written all over it. ALL OVER IT!

conspicous_other wrote:

Whatnow? Tunnel Vision much?

Anyway, that's all from me tonight. For now, FOS: Kmd4390, I'll take a look at some more stuff tomorrow, but if nothing pops out at me I'll bump that up to a vote.

You mean like this?

I thought this might come up. If I'm scumbuddies with charter, that means I was scumbuddies with ash, and if I was scumbuddies with ash, post 319 doesn't make much sense, now does it?

[Raivann]

I thought this might come up. If I'm scumbuddies with charter, that means I was scumbuddies with ash, and if I was scumbuddies with ash, post 319 doesn't make much sense, now does

lol, wut?

[alexhans]

charter wrote:

Ok, just to make my point clear. I can not fathom Conspicuous Other being scum. If he was, there would be him and his buddy trying to get someone else lynched. This is not the case. This wagon has mislynch written all over it. ALL OVER IT!

conspicous_other wrote:

Whatnow? Tunnel Vision much?

Anyway, that's all from me tonight. For now, FOS: Kmd4390, I'll take a look at some more stuff tomorrow, but if nothing pops out at me I'll bump that up to a vote.

You mean like this?

I thought this might come up. If I'm scumbuddies with charter, that means I was scumbuddies with ash, and if I was scumbuddies with ash, post 319 doesn't make much sense, now does it?

Not really. You could still do that as scum. To distance yourself from him.

I've been meaning to re-read this game but haven't managed to make time yet. I know the deadline is near. CnrT's lynch wouldn't be the worst IMO.

I would like everyone to try and compress they're cases on their votees or suspects in to very short posts directly to what you think are the facts. I think there has been a lot of arguing but not much to take from it. Charter, Conspic and Knox have brought new suspicions but backed them up insufficiently IMHO.
I am wary of Zaz. I have no reads whatsoever on KMD and Raiv. That's what makes them scary too. I have a slight town read on SoaD/Knox. And CnrT/Conspi and Charter/Ash have done their scummy things.

So, basically, I don't know what to do.

For now. Im gonna follow my gut.

Vote KMD

[charter]

Charter's case against me is that I join wagons, start wagons, get off wagons, and stay on wagons. None of which is scummy, I'm just playing the game and using my vote as for who I think is most scummy.

It's the timing of when you do all this. It is extremely opportunistic. Scum jump on opportunities.

Charter moves into town last week and immediately goes after towns strongest players - our IC's. I find this suspicious. I don't think his counterpoints to Kmd's case are strong either. Saying- your scum I'm not gonna argue your points anymore- is a weak argument. What about my points on CntR?

I don't know how to defend this without using massive appeal to emotion, but if I was going for mislynches, I would be gunning for newbies, not ICs. Kmd4390's case on Conspicuous_Other is incredibly weak, and I can't imagine Conspicuous_Other flipping scum. I don't remember your case, can you tell me which post/s it is please?

Ok, just to make my point clear. I can not fathom Conspicuous Other being scum. If he was, there would be him and his buddy trying to get someone else lynched. This is not the case. This wagon has mislynch written all over it. ALL OVER IT!

Whatnow? Tunnel Vision much?

Anyway, that's all from me tonight. For now, FOS: Kmd4390, I'll take a look at some more stuff tomorrow, but if nothing pops out at me I'll bump that up to a vote.

You mean like this?

No... That's not defending himself, or trying to get someone else lynched. That wasn't much of anything, but I'll let him explain it first.

I have no reads whatsoever on KMD and Raiv. That's what makes them scary too.

Quite frankly, this is terribly disturbing. I will be SHOCKED if at least one of them is not scum.

@alex, I will compress my case against Kmd4390 tomorrow.

[ZazieR]

I'll have to do something else first before looking at the other posts I have missed, but I want to post this first as I really want to hear an explanation for this:
Alex first opinion of Kmd

I have to admit to myself that I haven't looked much at some characters that I assumed town and forgot about them (KMD and Raivann)

^^second opinion
Alex new opinion of Kmd

Please explain what happened to your previous opinions of Kmd that he suddenly deserves your vote based on gut?

[ZazieR]

Kevin

Regarding post 378. The point of the two links was to show that you already had made a case against CntR day 1. You said that your suspicions regarding CntR came much later.
So I'd like to know why Blue was scummier than CntR, while you had according to you 6 valid points against CntR?

Why the sudden change from wanting him lynched to defending him as hard as you have?

SoaD's scummyness.

[ZazieR]

Charter

I'm not following you at all regarding the Kmd case. So I hope you can make a point to point case soon.

[ZazieR]

Clown

Charter has done quite a lot to convince me of the townie-ness of his role. First of all:

Yes. You can check any newbie game I've been scum in, I don't go after the other IC because they are an IC. In fact, I normally NK them on night two. I find it much easier to mislynch newbies. This is also not a valid way of defending yourself. It's entirely possible both you and ZazieR are scum and I'm rightly suspicious of you.

I can vouch for this, as I was scumbuddies with charter in a newbie game a little bit ago.

I can't really see anyone as scum in that position not going after me, particularly trying to defend me

. Knowing I'm town, I'm fairly certain you're town at this point, though I do still have some worries about you due to the actions of the person who preceded you.

You've only mentioned one point why Charter is probably town, while saying that there are more reasons.
And I don't understand the bolded. Can you please rephrase it?

Anyway, that's all from me tonight. For now, FOS: Kmd4390, I'll take a look at some more stuff tomorrow, but if nothing pops out at me I'll bump that up to a vote.

Why the FoS?

[ZazieR]

EBWOP

charter wrote:

Ok, just to make my point clear. I can not fathom Conspicuous Other being scum. If he was, there would be him and his buddy trying to get someone else lynched. This is not the case. This wagon has mislynch written all over it. ALL OVER IT!

conspicous_other wrote:

Whatnow? Tunnel Vision much?

Anyway, that's all from me tonight. For now, FOS: Kmd4390, I'll take a look at some more stuff tomorrow, but if nothing pops out at me I'll bump that up to a vote.

You mean like this?

I thought this might come up. If I'm scumbuddies with charter, that means I was scumbuddies with ash, and if I was scumbuddies with ash, post 319 doesn't make much sense, now does it?

Yes, it would make sense for two scumpartners to do so. It's called bussing.

[ZazieR]

Alex

You're so funny. Asking everyone to make a short post with their cases for voting a player, and all you can come up with is gut. I'll post a short version of my case soon.
Then there's also that you first had a town read on Kevin, whom you now vote.

I'd also like to hear what happened to this:

I'm leaning to a CntR lynch right now. Pending reasons in an organized post. I want him to be able to answer all questions(including mine) before I really decide on his lynch. (assuming nobody unvotes, then I would only vote him and not hammer him)

[ZazieR]

My case against SoaD:
-his opinion he posted of Blue which was according to him a joke.
-nothing regarding Blue day 1. His excuse was that his mother was in the hospital, which might be true, but he had time to post his 'crazy theory'.
-No vote day 1, but a vote right at the start of day 2. He uses his 'crazy theory' as reason for this vote.
-No defence whatsoever regarding the above actions.

[knox]

@knox in 374. I don't really think there's much to make of that just yet. Are you willing to vote Raivann? I could probably switch off Kmd4390, but his usage of these bad arguments has me wondering even more about him.

Yes I would be willing to vote Raivann, I have found his play in this game suspicious not just because of his one liners and active lurking but also for the timing of his wagon jumps which you brought up and I gave another look to. I also have a gut feeling about him and I think the combination of all of these feelings is worthy of a vote.

Knox's case is that I say one liners , but one of the rules is to have fun , so Knox's case is real lame.

Sure have all the fun you want, as long as you post content to match. In the middle of large discussions you have sometimes posted only fun and pointless posts in terms of the game. A townie should be asking questions and actively scum hunting. I have seen more fun than scum hunting, which does not help the town. Therefore I find you suspicious and scummy.

I would like everyone to try and compress they're cases on their votees or suspects in to very short posts directly to what you think are the facts.

Raivann
- Active lurking, not adding to the discussion at stages
- Flying under the radar, trying hard not to step on toes, generally following the group
- Piggybacking ideas and just agreeing often
- Suddenly saying the case on SoaD is as strong as his CntR case even though he summed up the SoaD case in two points yet his case had several points. This was after I said I was suspicious of him.
- Said he was posting fluff in the last few days before the replacements as he had nothing to say, yet there was new discussion to comment on at the time
- And what charter brought up, the timing of wagon jumps
- Also my gut feeling

I’m not going to say this is the most solid case as it is more based on his general play rather than specific points and slip ups. But it I think its worth a vote so

Vote Raivann

for now.

I haven’t had the best look at the Kmd case yet so will hopefully post my opinions on that tomorrow when I’m not half asleep.

[charter]

Mod

What time is the deadline tomorrow? Can it be extended?

The basic gist of my case on Kmd4390 is that he left CntR yesterday to get on the blueshadow wagon and his reasons for wanting to lynch Conspicuous Other today are really really poor. His justification for leaving the wagon yesterday made no logical sense.

SoaD, I can kind of see your logic on the bussing theory, but I don't see Zazie (an IC) bussing her partner (a newbie) that hard in a newbie game. The idea is to teach the game and bussing that hard goes against that.

I know.

And yes, I did the exactly the same thing.

Why did you vote him?

No

its not even pro-town.

Just like I said before, "someone's gotta go first".

Wait, what?

I consider myself a pro-town role, however what I was doing is of couse not pro-town.
I will not explain what the hell I was doing cause explanation means concealing. But I can tell you my intended purpose is reached.

Maybe some of you has already figure it out.

If it's not protown, why do it?

Unvote

because CnT is at L-1 and discussion is good right now.

Vote Blueshadow

for voting CnT with little reason (the same reason CnT was being wagoned), admitting anti-town actions, and witholding information from the town.

He unvoted because discussion was good, which makes zero sense. He voted blueshadow for a bunch of poor reasons. The reason why (I believe) he did this is because blueshadow had just slipped up bigtime, and the CntR wagon had stalled. His post was just a veil for blatently jumping wagons, to make it not look scummy. He even goes on to list reasons why CntR is suspicious afterwards, but keeps his vote on blueshadow. He never follows up his vote, just lays it down, then doesn't mention blueshadow again.

The other point is his reasons for being suspicious of CntR.

Hum...Well, since we cannot continue ahead without blue, we can discuss a few things while he's gone...

Why not?

So, what are the suspicions on me? If I can get a clearer idea of what they are, I will present my defense.

1) The FoS in the RVS when you weren't voting anyone. I saw this as cautious play matching your meta, but that's wrong as you have been more aggressive lately.

2) The fear of putting SoaD at L-2 which is notable because of your L-1 vote on Ash later.

3) Calling out Dennis for lurking when a few others were worse offenders, specifically Mizz.

4) Also quick to jump on the "lurker" who had posted 30 hours before you called him out.

5) Called Mizz a confused townie and then voted Ash 3 posts later with little reasoning.

6) Placed Ash at L-1 with little reasoning. Looks like you want to lynch pretty quickly there.

Kmd, I said ignoring is bad. If someone is rolefishing, I'm sure that you call him out on it. Even if you call him out on it, you're still responding to the question.

True. Just it's not good to always answer every single question asked. Yeah, if someone is calling you scum, you answer the accusations. There are just some things that you don't answer though. Not many, but there are some.

1-5 are just downright terrible reasons to lynch someone over. 6 is true, but not a reason to lynch someone over. I argued why in my post 381.

Guys, if the deadline is not going to be extended, then we need to get a claim out of a serious lynch candidate very soon. We also need to find out who is willing to vote who. I will vote Kmd4390 or Raivann, no one else.

[Yaw]

I guess I have to get it to a new page then?

Deadline is at midnight Eastern time. So you'll have the whole day tomorrow.

No, it's not going to be changed. You've had plenty of time to try to get a lynch.