Wheel of Time Mafia: Rip in the Pattern (GAME OVER)

[Mr. Flay]

I wonder if an Aes Sedai would be allowed to vote a lynch on one who is not a darkfriend?

If I recall from the last game, Aes Sedai could vote but could not hammer.

I'll need to read the Mini, then. We should probably also select who will hammer in most instances.

*snores*

[Mr. Flay]

*snores*

So, you want to potentially out Aes Sedai, who in the mini were pro-town power roles?[/quote]Incorrect. I want

non-Aes Sedai

to hammer in most instances. I fully expect we'll get more than one non-AS claim on D1, if this game runs true to form. And if not and we

do

get claimed AS, then we can test them to a degree.

[Mr. Flay]

EBWOP:

So, you want to potentially out Aes Sedai, who in the mini were pro-town power roles?

Incorrect. I want

non-Aes Sedai

to hammer in most instances. I fully expect we'll get more than one non-AS claim on D1, if this game runs true to form. And if not and we

do

get claimed AS, then we can test them to a degree.

[Mr. Flay]

Seraphim:

<7> To help the game run smoothly, votes and FoS'es should be made in bold text, be colored in RED, and use the format Vote: XXXX and FoS: XXXX, respectively.

Thanks, Shadow Knight, for being the first AS to claim. Well done.

fuzzylightning: I don't think it will be 'immediate', but I do think we'll get some before D1 is over. We'll either get multiple bandwagons to claim, or some hyperactive role discussion.

Vote: Mastermind of Sin

- I thought you left?

[Mr. Flay]

Mr. Flay, why do you think Shadow Knight is an Aes Sedai?

I don't, actually (luckily sarcasm is a defense against violating the Three Oaths, so you don't know if I'm AS or not). But I think putting any information out there about who the Aes Sedai are is going to be immensely counterproductive - they already have to be careful not just to avoid giving themselves away, but also avoid violating the oaths outright and suffering whatever the punishment is for that. Vote stands, though, because SK is hopping around like a frog on acid.

To more directly answer your question, I think Shadow Knight is making the huge assumption that Aes Sedai would be our ONLY power role. The easy assumption from that is that he has or knows specifically about that role, and thus is tunneled on it. That's what I'm talking about when I say giving away who they are, and why MacavityLock's statement is equally stupid.

FoS: MacavityLock

- your idea has one primary benefit, and that benefit is detrimental to town. Answer this question: What role(s) do you hope to catch with this maneuver?

[Mr. Flay]

"You stand at a fork in the road. Next to each of the two forks, there stands a guard. You know the following things: 1. One path leads to Paradise, the other to Death.
One of the two guards always tells the truth, and the other guard always lies.
Unfortunately, it is impossible for you to distinguish between the two guards.
You may ask one question to one guard. What do you ask?

I'm honestly not sure how to ask the question in this situation, but if we have a group who can't lie and a group who lie, we can use this, right?

No; Aes Sedai can utter an untruth if they

believe

it to be true. Thus, asking player A whether or not they think B is scum isn't going to help, because if A is scum, they're not bound by the Three Oaths (I'll stake the game on this statement, because otherwise it's entirely possible to break the game wide open), and if A is town, at

best

they will be able to say they don't know if B is town or not, which is what we all already know already. At

worst

it'll out Mason pairs like the Aes Sedai/Warders from last game, which is NOT A GOOD IDEA.

Unvote, Vote: xxFabianxx

- you are actively stalling and not doing anything useful. Improve soon or be the D1 lynch, please.

(I apologize if this post has already been covered, but I was out all day yesterday and most of Saturday and am still rereading)

Slicey: Argh. This is why I hate when people sign up for themes they know nothing about.

[Mr. Flay]

FTFY

What the hell does that stand for?

Kinetic: You have me listed as voting 3 times O.o

I

wish

I had that power xD

And FOSing twice. What are you, an entire Fist of Trollocs?

---

Blood and ashes, Fabian.

You're either telling the truth or you're idiot scum, but STOP telling us precisely how your role works! It's not important now for town to know, particularly, but it'll help scum avoid you.

Although I'm curious about your claim of someone using Saidar. OP weaves can be nearly anything, but it's unlikely to have been a daykill attempt this early on. Still, if we do lynch Fabian, I want to know any more details of what he detected,

but not before then!

Reluctantly

unvoting xxFabianxx

- that claim is too stupid not to be believed at present.

hasdgfas and Sajin

- what makes you think it's still worth a vote? What would scum gain by painting that target on themselves on D1?

Vote: Albert B. Rampage

however - legendarily loose cannon status aside, posts 168 and 171 make No Sense Whatsoever. Why are you really unvoting him, Albert?

GAH! Fixing again...

[Mr. Flay]

If I knew who, I wouldn't tell you anyway

*headdesk*

Due to the way locations work in this game

*headdesk*

I did not make three mistakes in that post.

I'm gonna go get drunk now.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm having a really hard time not policy-lynching SyreX. Can someone give me a good reason not to kill a male channeler before he kills us all?

I mean, I suppose a Vig would be a good reason, but I don't want ANOTHER role claim... Light!

[Mr. Flay]

I haven't read the mini. Can someone answer whether all insane people became darkfriends?

No, not all male channelers are darkfriends. But ALL insane people are dangerous. There's no reason to think that Kinetic kept the male channeler role PM secret in the mini for his own personal amusement.

I actually like SpyreX for a Jester at this point. It's the only thing that makes sense with the pointless claim, and I'm willing to grant him peace.

Unvote, Vote: SpyreX

I don't think he is scum at this point in time. Should that change, I'll gladly vote him.

How do you propose to determine when he turns SK?!? Sajin already explained why extra kills is a red herring. Do you propose to check him every night? What if he gains investigation immunity? What, exactly, is your 'plan' here regarding SpyreX?!?

It is true that those who channel Saidin can be considered a threat and should be monitored carefully, but if he can control his powers, it's possible he could be useful to the town. I suggest this instead: We let him live and assist us, and if at any point he ceases to be useful to the town, we instruct the Saidar channelers to gentle him, which I'd assume can be done without having to reveal who those channelers are.

However, I say all of that with one request, SpyreX, please stop using saidin now, if you want to remain a townie then there is no need to use it, If he does continue to use it though, I am all for his lynch, but right now ABR really concerns me with what his play.

Again, HOW DO WE MONITOR HIM?!?

I say we lynch scum today and see what happens in the morning.

That's a much more cunning plan - now, who is scum, Sera?

[Mr. Flay]

How did that work in the mini work in regards to gentles/stills? Was it the all rolled in to the same thing, or could different people do different forms of it?

In the mini it was the same for both Aes Sedai, and they had to work together to Gentle a man. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 95#1518195

I actually like SpyreX for a Jester at this point. It's the only thing that makes sense with the pointless claim, and I'm willing to grant him peace. Unvote, Vote: SpyreX

If you actually thought I was a jester, why would you...vote for me?

Because with Jesters, you remove the distraction as soon as possible. Even if they win individually, they don't prohibit anyone else from winning

once they're gone from the game

.

How do you propose to determine when he turns SK?!? Sajin already explained why extra kills is a red herring. Do you propose to check him every night? What if he gains investigation immunity? What, exactly, is your 'plan' here regarding SpyreX?!?

I think its pretty clear I'm not making it to end game. Which, by nature, means I do NOT want to change my alignment from town. In fact, I need to be lord of the scumhunters. Because the only way I have a chance to be alive at the end of the game is to constantly hit scum.

Which is impossible. Not only does practically no one "constantly" hit scum, but you cannot reliably claim credit for it every time. I'm not being snotty at you, nobody can do that, even Pooky or Glrok. It's a team effort for killing scum. So how do we determine that you are "lord of the scumhunters", again?

In response to Flay, well we know that he uses Saidin to perform his mysterious double vote, so providing that Kinetic gets the vote counts correct, we will know if he is using Saidin because his second vote will not be on anyone, so SpyreX, if you haven't already, please get rid of your second vote, and don't use it again for the rest of the game, unless asked otherwise. Outside of that, we will have to rely on him to be honest with us with any other abilities that he has at this moment, and in the event that he is gentled, then he will have to tell us so.

Right. We rely on him to be honest. In a Mafia game. About secret powers. That might change his alignment undetectably. Run that by me one more time?

I'd like to see opinions from everyone on the following:

• If SpyreX is a jester, should he be lynched today?
  
• If SpyreX is a male channeler, should he be gentled immediately?

You already know my opinion on the first, but yes, if we don't lynch him, I suppose we should try to gentle him. Then someone can explain to me how we've confirmed that that worked (by the way, I fully expect gentled characters to have a shorter lifespan, so he's unlikely to last to endgame anyway).

Jester? Really? I don't think you believe that at all. I'm gonna call bullshit on this one, especially since I've seen scum try to use the "lynch the possible jester" ploy to pull off a mislynch on Day 1 before. Mr. Flay is a good enough player that if he was town, he'd be suggesting that we have a vig kill the possible jester tonight instead of lynching him today.

I already said that a vigilante would be a good reason to not lynch him, dipshit. But since that would require ANOTHER claim on D1, I'm not relying on it at this point. If you're volunteering for the task, great, otherwise, see below.

Every time I have ever seen someone saying "Lynch him/her, they're probably a jester" on this site as their reason to jump on a wagon, it's has come from scum. Until anyone shows me otherwise, that's a black mark against Flay for me.

Is Mafia Discussion pro-town enough for you? Also, see below.

However, a thought I had: could scum claim male channeler, get the Aes Sedai to 'gentle' them (which would presumably have no effect), and thus tie up power roles for a night, and assume 'confirmed innocent' status for the rest of the game?

Being gentled makes no assumptions about the (current) alignment of who you are gentling (assuming the AS can confirm they did it at all), only his powers. He could still be scum (note I don't think SpyreX is scum, this is theory discussion), he just has a lower threat level. And yes, for the sake of completeness, I'll say that there's a chance a man channeling could have powers that actively help the town. I'm willing to take that risk.

Yes insane people are dangerous true.

But why the Jester speculation? It seems kinda weird, 1) B/c I really, really don't see it from Spyrex's play and 2) Aren't Jesters a rare enough role that they should be just discounted.

See below, please.

BELOW:

• This is particularly for MoS, KoC and Faraday, but anybody can/should answer:
• If you don't think SpyreX is a Jester, what do you think his role is?
  
• What is the
  best
  case scenario for dealing with SpyreX, in your estimation? Try not to reveal your role while you're answering this one...

[Mr. Flay]

Finally, Mr Flay's 324 is a big fat load of wtf. You think he is faking a claim he proved by doublevoting? You specifically seem to discourage the idea of looking for a scumlynch instead of Spyrex lynch.

I never said he was faking a claim; doublevoting isn't an alignment-tied power in Mafia.

And, the whole "he must be a jester, let's lynch him," makes no sense, period. Since when has a jester lynch even been pro-town? Even if you were right about him being a jester, that's still a mislynch in that we aren't lynching scum.

Getting rid of a Jester is incredibly pro-town, actually, as otherwise they'll screw up the entire read of the game. What MOST people are arguing with me about is if he's a Jester, not whether or not we should lynch Jesters.

[Mr. Flay]

Could I be any more plain:

I think SpyreX is a male Channeler who wants to be lynched because of his insanity. In other words, a Jester!

I've not said word one about disbelieving him for being a male channeler, stop putting words in my mouth.

I'm talking about Alignment/Win Condition, not Powers.

[Mr. Flay]

SpyreX: What's your character name?

[Mr. Flay]

Okay, good, thanks. Sorry for the multipart posts, I'm catching up on 4-5 pages today.

ABR:

Please explain what's the deal with the italicized 'flavor' posts? I thought they had something to do with your role, but they make no sense for a Red.

I agree with Sajin on examining ABR for lies. MBL, what makes you think the mod will wait for players to 'draw attention' to lies? If he's Black Ajah, it'll become clear pretty quickly in that context (once we get a functional mod again). "I dunno." is problematic, but post 353 is worse:.

No, we are certain that he will be an SK. All male AS become SKs.

Now, it's possible (maybe even probable) that we won't be told if ABR loses his powers. But his posts have NOT been in line with what I would expect from someone bound by the Three Oaths, i.e. parsed carefully and written with exactitude. He's shooting from the hip.

Ok then, this is simple. Fabian claims he can detect Saidar. You claim you can detect Saidar. We are all in the same room right now. Fabian has claimed that he detected Saidar today. Have you, ABR, detected Saidar today?

MoS makes sense here. ABR should answer first, then Fabian can confirm. If someone can think of a way to get both answers simultaneously without breaking the rule against codes, I'm all ears.

Kairyuu: Black Sisters in the books unswear the oaths and swear three others to prevent revealing themselves. I don't think we can rely on the first post to preclude Black Ajah from being in the game, at all.

ABR; he has no kill tonight, I GUARANTEE it. He's surely town right now, and he won't become an SK

tonight

so lynching him now does NOT save town from any negative effects, therefore you are pushing an unnecessary lynch.

Okay, I'll bite: Why are you certain of this?

Pending a count, I'm comfortable with either a ABR or SpyreX lynch today. I TOLD YOU we would get multiple claims today... I guess if we lynched SpyreX, we should try to get ABR to hammer as discussed in pregame? Not that that should be hard...

[Mr. Flay]

unFoS: MacavityLock

- sorry, that was seriously outdated and I forgot they were counted in this game.

I don't like Albert's behavior at all, so I'm going to revisit an old idea and ask him to post ML's meme from page 3: "I win with the town and I am not aware of any circumstance in which I do not win with town."

Repeat after me, Albert?

[Mr. Flay]

ABR Please answer the following question: Can you break the 3 pro town oaths with no consequence?

I have to ask - what is that question supposed to accomplish? What do you expect him to say?

[Mr. Flay]

I think an obvious tell that I am Aes Sedai is the first time I mention AS, I put it under quotation like "Aes Sedai" as if it was the first time I ever heard of it, obviously fake. This doesn't mean I can't be black ajah, but its a nice verifiable way of knowing that I truly am AS without outing my partner.

That makes no bloody sense at all. If you place something in the thread yourself, you can't very well point to it later and say "See? That's verifiable!"

lol you think he already told me his ability?

Did you not say previously that your partner forbade you from divulging it? Doesn't that imply you know what it is? I'm pretty sure your assertion that you have not yet lied is due to sneaky wording. The problem is that I do not understand why you feel it is necessary.

Agreed, but he later explicitly clarified that he has not lied (which means nothing if he can lie, but does obviate the word-dancing from scrutiny in this case).

Lastly on this subject, I support one of SK & ABR confirming/contradicting Fabian's claim of Saidar being used. Really. How is this information damning?

And now Shadow Knight has said he didn't detect it. Someone is probably lying here, but I can't figure out WHY.

We're having storms here so I'm probably done for the night. Seriously, pretty please, with cherries on top, will people STOP CLAIMING now?!??!

[Mr. Flay]

Either way, SK's desire to out all sleeping locations has the scum alarm screaming like a fat kid who dropped his ice cream.

Actually, (WIFOM ahead) it's a little transparent for scum. If people start dropping based on where they're at, then wouldn't we start to look there first? That almost broke the Clue mini wide open, and it's one reason I've not launched a location-based game yet. I haven't figured a way around it, but I'm guessing Kinetic's not that dumb (to just put it in anyway). This is a weak scum tell at best, more likely an idiot town maneuver.

Unless ABR comes out and counterclaims this, I think it's obvious that Fabian is the scum here. Why are you people not seeing this?

I'm sure you'll

discover

that I'm Fabian's scumbuddy because of this, but have you not considered that the ability to detect usage of the OP every time would be a little overpowered in a Deep South game? Just because it's not location-based doesn't mean there's not some limitation, like how closely the two have posted to each other, or something.

[Mr. Flay]

Jackass. The mod already said we were in the "common rooms".

[Mr. Flay]

Sorry, I';ve only got time for a brief post.

RE Fabian's claim: can somebody who's also familiar with the books tell me if they think that I'm barking up the wrong tree with my assessment of Fabian's claim? I just can't believe that an Aes Sedai would teach someone who's not even a novice how to do something as drastic as stilling.

Only way it makes sense is to be a Talent, something random that the person is wildly strong in. I'm not crazy about the newly-added "Lesser" part of his role, but I need to go reread what was revealed in the mini.

Also, I'm not sure what you're getting at with the Red Ajah angle.
Are you wondering if it's ABRs flavour to have to lynch claimed male channelers?
That in no way makes him scum, Red Ajah are what they are.

Okay. The sequence of events:

1) ABR said that all male AS go mad (the pedantic voice inside me insists that after the breaking there are no male AS, merely men who can channel).

To be wholly pedantic, we're right after the War of Power, so there's two types of male Aes Sedai right now - Forsaken and crazymen. SpyreX is, I believe, claiming to be the third thing, a man who has

just started

to channel. That's why he has a chance to remain pro-town, and I suppose with this many AS claimed we should try gentling him, but

SpyreX himself

has said he should be lynched rather than tie up nightactions. Can I get a "Jester, Thank You!"?!?

[Mr. Flay]

We should claim our locations. At daybreak.

I've agreed with ABR like twice in this game now. We may be approaching

the heat death of the universe

upgrade of MafiaScum.net to phpBB3.

Also, SpyreX, I know how Jesters work, you don't have to beat me over the head with it. But in ANY rational game, they don't prevent other factions from winning once they exit. I don't get "2nd place" because a Jester wins. They just have a tendency to mess with scumhunting while they're alive. Luckily we're doing precious little of that, so no worries there. I still think you're a hazard and a distraction. IF we could be certain you'd be gentled tonight, I'd be all for letting you live, but we can't, and we'll never be 100% certain. What you've claimed is equivalent to a Miller, a favorite scum claim.

I believe ABR at this point, Light help me. I want SpyreX dead or gentled by tomorrow. Fabian or Shadow Knight might be Darkfriends/Black Ajah but I think their powers are what they say they are, and they're a poor second choice for the lynch.

I suggest anyone who catches themselves starting to be "swayed" by Fabian's claim read this post from the WoT Mini, which details the roles. The information contained there is sufficient to construct Fabian's fake claim without needing any information from this setup.

Really? What makes you think those roles lead to a "Deputy/Nurse" role, axiomatically? Especially a Wisdom, which probably ought not to exist during the Breaking (Kinetic's played fast and loose with a few details, it's not really a tell)?

This game is essentially smalltown.

Powerclaims don't do diddly (with the notable exception of

saidin

-wielders)! Now, actions above and beyond that which could benefit or detract from one faction or another are totally different and should be leaned on. SpyreX actually gets points for having some good posts of late. Shadow Knight is trying. Isacc is trying, or was until his last post. Too many people are lurking: Mufasa, Tuberkulos, Slicey...

[Mr. Flay]

This is not smalltown...the roles are not totally public knowledge. But the removal of the ability to lie for some roles does make for a unique mafia game.

Okay, not Smalltown in the strict sense of the word, more like Split Role/Motive. But my point about powers being decoupled from alignment stands. I wasn't even talking about the Three Oaths thing.

I suggest anyone who catches themselves starting to be "swayed" by Fabian's claim read this post from the WoT Mini, which details the roles. The information contained there is sufficient to construct Fabian's fake claim without needing any information from this setup.

Really? What makes you think those roles lead to a "Deputy/Nurse" role, axiomatically? Especially a Wisdom, which probably ought not to exist during the Breaking (Kinetic's played fast and loose with a few details, it's not really a tell)?

My point is that none of the details of Fabian's role are details that would "confirm" him, in the sense that the details of his claim that might be confirmable by other people with similar roles (ie Aes Sedai) can all be found by searching that post I linked from the last game. The role "deputy/nurse" or whatever is really just the most obvious claim for a town wisdom, since what they do is heal people (and predict the weather). Ultimately, everything in Fabian's claim that is specific to the flavor of this game could be obtained by decent knowledge of the books and a quick study of the WoT mini. The other generic details of his claim all point directly to him being scum.

Can you humor me and break down his roleclaim exactly into these categories? Because I'm still not seeing it - Wisdom wasn't a role in the mini, he's actually claiming a sort of Lost Mason/Deputy/Nurse, and all of the bits of his role PM make sense to me. I'm willing to be proven wrong, but you're being too vague at present. Also, remember that he was the FIRST claim, so you can't use ABR or Shadow Knight or anybody else in your argument.

Isacc, this is in response to you as well, since my point was mainly that Wisdom didn't exist in the mini and there's no evidence of them in the books at this time period, so MoS' claim that "everything could be gleaned and constructed from existing knowledge" rang a little hollow for me.

As for SK's actions, I think only the most tunnel-visioned, blind players could not see the possible benefit that SK saw from claiming locations.

I don't think anybody's saying there aren't benefits. But the cons outweigh, for me, and most of the benefits can be achieved by things like claiming at Daybreak, without all of the same cons.

[Mr. Flay]

PS. Someone used Saidar today, as I said, and someone used Saidar today AFTER I last said someone used Saidar.
That's the last time I will ever tell you that anyone has used Saidar, unless I can fit it with someone acting scummy, or there is a very good reason for it other than I think people are trying to out Power Roles.

No. Tell us every time it happens, as long as you're alive. IF you're town, we'll know to go back over those posts later. If you're scum, we'll ignore them. Withholding information now that you've outed your ability probably isn't useful, though...

MoS: I suppose that makes sense. I don't feel like crediting Fabian with that much skill right now, but thanks for clarifying.

Mod: Vote Count?

[Mr. Flay]

I'm with KoC on this one. 8+ votes and a hammer in 30 hours? What the hell? I realize the guy self-destructed, but damn... if Fabian does flip non-Darkfriend/town, I'll have to wonder if it wasn't scum running up somebody they knew wasn't their own so they could lock in their choices after daytalking.

On the other hand, maybe he's exactly what he said he was...a Doctor/Deputy/Supersaint/Saidarin-channeler/Death Miller, with a cherry on top.

According to the signup thread, we won't find out his role until Daybreak. It doesn't seem profitable to speculate during 'twilight' on who the next lynch should be.

[Mr. Flay]

At this point, I'm going to claim

one of

my abilities, because otherwise we could end up with 1-shot pro-town players wasting their abilities:

none of your abilities will work tomorrow.

I have other abilities that I have not used, and they do not involve

saidin

or

saidar

.
I know I've been arguing that there should be no more claims, but if we have 1-shots with useful powers, I don't want them to be wasted tomorrow. I assume this power is why Kinetic made Voting not-an-ability - because it'd screw us over if we couldn't lynch someone tomorrow.

You have GOT to be kidding me.

*headdesk*

[Mr. Flay]

I slept at the Windmill.

I'm curious about the nightkills. Dismemberment doesn't particularly strike me as a One Power killing, but incineration does. Also, what on earth is a "Survivor Mafia"? If the scum have additional criteria on their WC we could have quite a number of them around.

[Mr. Flay]

I.... was trying to think what sort of role could play for either the Light or the Shadow. All I could come up with that matched the claim, but Gholam was the only thing coming to mind (and that was a real stretch, for the Light-side). Ta'veren makes sense, but I'm not sure what you mean by "repercussions". Do you think his ability will still block everyone today? Or...I actually don't have any idea what you mean. I literally can't figure out how the game could be balanced with a role of that strength able to play on either side, unless he got to decide and then other roles were added/removed as necessary.

[Mr. Flay]

Sorry, that was to ABR. I got Sarnath'd by Moratorium.

Mufasa, PLEASE pay attention to what game you're in.

[Mr. Flay]

Ta'veren's not a who, it's a what. It's the characters who can bend chance and opportunity to their will (or depending on how you look at it, get bent to the Wheel's purpose for them). Rand, Mat, and Perrin are modern ta'veren. Artur Hawkwing was one. I don't know how that gels with making people miss choices, but it's sort of a "if there's any miniscule chance this can happen, it will if it suits the Wheel". So it can't make a Forsaken flip allegiances, but it can make him reveal something secret, or an angry lord pledge allegiance to you.

[Mr. Flay]

Sorry, I'm thinking out loud here.

Windmill. SpyreX, are you still crazy?

What sort of answer are you expecting here?

Interesting that Vote Counts didn't reset with the new Day.

Fabian appears to have been a female Forsaken. Do any of our ALREADY CLAIMED Aes Sedai have anything additional that that explains for them about yesterday's uses of Saidar?

[Mr. Flay]

If, by chance, there is ANY way to determine who else was at the stables that would be killer sweet. Since I was one of the three and gentled (assuming you believe me) there is a 50% shot at scum if we had any method of figuring out the others.

What makes you think that 'notice' means anything?

Interesting that Vote Counts didn't reset with the new Day.

What do you mean

It's the "Thirteenth" Vote Count, at the start of this day. Most mods reset the number when a new day starts, that's all.

Did you just get caught in a lie?

No?

It's also interesting to see that Flay unvoted Albert right as Albert was beginning to come under pressure (5 votes). Flay, why'd you do that? I could understand if you were on the trail of scum, but you hopped off Albert's wagon BEFORE he claimed and you jumped to someone you thought was a JESTER. Insanity.

WHAT? Read for context, Lee, not just my posts in isolation. In the ~125 posts between my voting Albert and unvoting him, SpyreX claimed to be a male-channeler. That was the big change, not Albert himself at that point.

I don't understand the Isaccwagon. Macavity, what's the slip?

[Mr. Flay]

I did NOT expect this :

Thanks, Shadow Knight, for being the first AS to claim. Well done.

Power role fishing a few posts into the game, Flay? Really? I mean, yes, I can see where you got that idea from SK's posts, but why share your thoughts on his role to everyone else?

Page 4: Now Mr. Flay is trying to say he didn't actually mean that he thought Shadow Knight was Aes Sedi, and it was sarcasm. I have two problems with this. First of all, SK actually was Aes Sedi, and he kind of looked like an Aes Sedi in those early posts, so I don't think "sarcasm" really makes sense here. And secondly, "sarcasm" or not, it still kind of looks like fishing, in that if you were a scum trying to find out Shadow Knight's role, his reaction to a comment like that might help you, no matter if you were being sarcastic or not.

FOS:Mr. Flay

It's no lie to say that I was already frustrated with the roleclaims at that point in the game. And it's no lie to say that I wasn't SK's partner-mason, so while he was giving off 'Aes Sedai tells' it wasn't like I literally thought he was one. This is kinda a stretch, but I realize you've got another 30 pages or so to read. The Jester thing will also make more sense later...

Vote: Benmage

- it's not useful to stall at this point. I really don't want to comment on the notice itself until everybody either claims location or firmly states that they won't. I think there's a wealth of information in those tiny facts.

[Mr. Flay]

And it's no lie to say that I wasn't SK's partner-mason, so while he was giving off 'Aes Sedai tells' it wasn't like I literally thought he was one.

Are you concerned that scum can eliminate possibilities for Aes Sedai now or in the future when you make statements like these?

Basically yes, I don't want to give any more ammunition than necessary. Whether or not I'm Aes Sedai, it doesn't harm me to make sure I'm not

Unvote: Benmage

- you're right, I apologize for missing your statement there.

I'm not feeling the Isaccwagon. Unfortunately I don't have a strong alternate candidate right now - Slicey appears to be stalling though so I'll put a second vote there.

Vote: Slicey

- all of our lurkers need to step up more.

[Mr. Flay]

I've got limited access today and tomorrow so I can't respond to the attacks above right now, but they're frankly laughable. I'm an SK because of *what* "daytalk" factor? I've joined the ranks of the roleclaimers? I see MBL is still being his helpful self.

I may have been wrong about Shadow Knight, but my point then, as later, was to STOP THE ROLE FISHING. If it hadn't even gotten to the point of the massclaims yet, so much the better, but this isn't exactly a new behavior for me. I don't understand this wagon, but I'll be back later today if I can (and if it'll stop raining so I can get to the library).

[Mr. Flay]

Christ, MoS, pay attention. Yosarian2 replaced Tenchi, and already said where he slept.

[Mr. Flay]

I have found a suspect. I am now trying to get him lynched. This is what I do. Unless he can prove to me that I shouldn't be voting him, I will continue to push for his lynch.

Until this last post, though, you haven't really made much of a case on him. I don't like Slicey's behavior any more than you do, but just saying "row row row lynch!" isn't pushing for a lynch in any more than the most rudimentary way.

I'm not sure it's really scummy of you because it may just be your style (a poor man's Xylithxm/IS), but it's not terribly helpful.

[Mr. Flay]

You extrapolated where extrapolation was not due. Your logic is bad.

Anything a confirmed scum says is to be discarded immediately.

Blood and ashes, ABR, when did you start making so much

sense

?

Kairyuu isn't making any sense, on the other hand, in this dogged belief that all Aes Sedai are

a priori

town. The "personal attacks" thing looks like overreaction of a team that is already down one member. I'm liking

Vote: Kaiyruu

right now. Especially because

Also, I totally forgot you were in this game when I was addressing MBL. I was planning to tell you this at some point. I dug up your old doc gambit from the Pie E7 that you and Adel were ICing and applied it to the F11 setup in Newbie 750. It worked brilliantly. Caught scum D1 and D2 in an all vanilla setup.

looks a lot like trying to get MBL on his side for reasons totally unrelated to the game. On the other hand, Benmage's 909 pretty much dopes contain a contradiction. You can't just say

"I agree with your probable assumption of no black AS"

and then assert that you never found his logic compelling.

FoS: benmage

Also, LOL at Yos' "gentiled" last page. The whole Isacc thing is still kinda sketchy to me (and yes, if he flips scum I'm a dead man) but at least I can see some logic to it. I still think isacc is being more useful/pro-town than Kairyuu at this point.

[Mr. Flay]

It seems to me that Mr. Flay has been let off the hook rather easily of late though, as post 853 never seemed to be addressed (the two "it is no lie that" statements), other than a "I've got limited access today and tomorrow so I can't respond to the attacks above right now" and a short selective response.

Sorry, I'm still in crisis-reading mode (

maybe

an hour a day for scum, not enough for a full re-read of 40 pages) so I'm trying to respond to questions when they come up.

Regarding 853: There's another possibility besides Shadow Knight being an Aes Sedai, that Yos ignored in his query; he could be a role that wants or needs to kill Aes Sedai. A Forsaken, a Myrddraal, a Gholam, or a male channeler are all easy possibilities for roles that would be focused very strongly on any AS tells. In my opinion (at that early stage of the game, post 89), that was at least as likely as a surfeit of Aes Sedai, AND Shadow Knight's "tell" was obvious enough to me that it didn't seem to be outing anything by drawing attention to it, except perhaps to encourage others to not make the same mistake. We see how well that's worked...

I still think it's important not to give away too many role tells. 851 should have said "Whether or not I'm Aes Sedai, it doesn't harm me to make sure I'm not telling whether or not I am one myself." I just didn't finish my sentence.

And yes, I've already acknowledged my memory was faulty about when post 89 came in relation to the rush of roleclaims. I defy anybody to expect that we'd have so many roles already out there by the end of Day One, so freaking out about role tells seems rational and pro-town to me.

[Mr. Flay]

Unless someone wants to argue that there's a scum motivator...

Sure, I'll bite.

Powers are (still) independent of alignment!

Why does motivator have to be a pro-town power?

Albert, why did you ignore MoS' 984? He's not talking about Kairyuu, he's talking about Fabian and why you ignored the claim to detect Saidar.

Benmage is correct about incineration being an extremely likely OP-kill, and thus probably scum. I don't really get the three identical dismemberment kills, but meh. That can wait. The important part here is I don't like the people who are saying that it's not categorically OP, that doesn't make any sense

in this theme game

.

Last observation: Isacc and Kairyuu both claim to have slept at the Blacksmith's. Since a blacksmith isn't an Aes Sedai, either there's a Masonic Majority^TM out there, or that's awfully coincidental.

[Mr. Flay]

Albert, why did you ignore MoS' 984? He's not talking about Kairyuu, he's talking about Fabian and why you ignored the claim to detect Saidar.

I don't understand your query.

Rephrase what you want to know as if you were the one asking the question.

"Did you or did you not detect Saidar usage yesterday when Fabian claimed to have done so (either time)? If not, why didn't you take that as confirmation that Fabian was lying about his 'Lesser Detect Saidar' ability?"

Since a blacksmith isn't an Aes Sedai, either there's a Masonic Majority^TM out there, or that's awfully coincidental.

Can you elaborate on this a bit more? What do you mean by Masonic Majority?

Sorry, I just meant that we've already gotten two role claims by Aes Sedai who claim to have partners (not each other). Two of those are White, which may mean there's as many as 8 or more, each a Mason/Neighbor pair. Add in what I thought was a BlackSmith+Butler Mason pair (now obviously false), and it starts to look like there's a whole lot of Masons in the game.

Unvote, Vote: Isacc

- yes, it's theoretically possible we could use a claimed SK as a weapon, but I'm not counting on it. Also, THREE "dismemberment" kills last night makes me think we're dealing with a Gholam Mafia, not SK. The motivator claim accounts for two, but I'm guessing they get X kills/Y days or something, and killed

en masse

early because of KoC's roleclaim. Or they are lost siblings and have to find each other before they become a pair/triad/whatever. In any case, the nightkills don't match up to the roles thus far.

Isacc:

If you want to help the town, answer this: Was your role name "Conmeal Lud" given to you as a safe claim?

Why did you motivate Isaac last night, after he spent the entire day trying to prevent us from lynching one of the Forsaken?

Not that I disagree with the general gist of your concern (Kairyuu motivating Isacc instead of one of the Aes Sedai), but we didn't know Fabian was a Forsaken until Daybreak. He could have been anything at that point (probably not town, but you know what I mean).

[Mr. Flay]

Also, I'm pretty sure that's the first time I've ever been accused of being scum for knowing too much about the theme.

However, Issac being SK does lend a large amount of credence to a second Gholam running around based on kill flavor. I could, definitely, see that being Flay.

Well that means my hunch was right about the NKs, but it also means that there is likely a seond Gholam-SK that we need to look out for. There's another theory, but it's ugly and I'll explain it tomorrow after we get another datapoint.

Flay would be my first hunch since he was the only one to bring up the word Gholam in the thread (I've never heard of the things).

Huh? Why am I a likely Gholam? I'm not even going to bother quoting Isacc's bandwagoning on this stupid idea. This is a trivial hypothesis to disprove - someone just needs to target me with a direct weave and get a result.

Kairyuu's unvoting of Isacc after speedlynch danger was gone is noted.

Oozing, claim your sleeping location from last night ASAP.

[Mr. Flay]

EBWOP:

You killed two power roles last night, and you keep trying to convince people I am scum after I nailed 2 scum. Neither of those actions are protown.

Okay, Isacc finally made some sense again. Why do you assume hasfgdas was a power role?

You seem to be making an awful lot of assumptions there. IF I'm scum, why would I be a channeler? Why do you think I'm the next best lynch, anyway? I haven't seen anything like a case from you, just bald statements.

[Mr. Flay]

Well, I'm not sure what's going on with the votecount, but apparently:

- I'm shown not voting.
- I'm shown voting, for Kairyuu.
- I'm shown FoS'ing two people.
- My actual vote for Isacc isn't registered.

So call me confused.

If Kinetic confirms that there's no error, somebody is still dicking around with the count. I'm looking at you, SpyreX...

Also, roll call?

Three of the townfolk were killed when he nearly escaped.

Is this set-dressing or are the kills hidden?

[Mr. Flay]

Sure, that would make sense. That's not how I read the role, but...

Flay, IP check for zwet and OGB please?

Using IP information in this game would be totally unethical. If OGB wants to be an alt and isn't breaking the rules, you should let this drop (see Kinetic's post about Kairyuu/Isacc).

@Mr. Flay: It takes time to write up a post. I unvoted after writing the post that came with it, which required a bit of research. I didn't preview before I hit submit, so I wasn't the first or second like I was expecting to be. Check the timestamps if you don't believe me.

I literally have no idea what you're trying to say here. Are you saying it's okay because you came up with the idea of me being a Gholam first, just didn't end up posting it first? What does that have to do with my criticism of the idea?

armlx: Why not vote/FOS, then?

Back later (like 12h later, probably, unless I can get here at lunch).

[Mr. Flay]

@Mr. Flay: I was referring to the unvoting of Isacc. I was under the impression when I started the post that I would be the first or second to unvote, but while I was typing up the post like 4 other people unvoted.

Okay thanks, that makes sense now.

This isn't a strong enough reason to vote for Mr.Flay. Post a case or I'll ask my partner to mess your vote up.

Not that I don't appreciate the support but - guh wha? Your partner can also mess with the votes?

I slept at the windmill, liar.

???

Being as the twilight actions all apparently got cancelled,

Vote: Slicey

- he appears to have in mind who is guilty before he reads (and has since page 22 or so). Plus, the desire to still have someone vig SpyreX yesterday seems forced, given that he didn't comment on him Day 1 when SpyreX still, you know, probably could channel.

[Mr. Flay]

Also, MoS- you realize you were the hammer vote (because of spyrex screwing the votes or whatever other reason), did that cause anything else to happen?

Why would you suggest that?

Kinetic: Can you fix the end-of-Day-Two vote count? I have no idea what Sajin's on about here but you said it was screwed up, but never edited it to fix.

Fixed with Mora's vote, which I must have missed in my first pass.

ABR, for a general overview of the case against Flay, see this post (a reply to Flay):

I didn't assume hasdgfas had a power role. It should be pretty obvious that I typed that part of my post before it was revealed that Isacc didn't kill SK.

You'd be a channeler because most of the scum in the books could channel. It's possible you're not, but I don't think the discussion is invalid just because the possibility exists. It's also *possible* you are protown, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't discuss you being scum, either.

As far as why I think you're scum, I've been voting/FoSing you since day 1. I dropped my vote off you to go after Fabian, remember? Your "jester" actions seem completely scum-motivated, your actions regarding Fabian lead me to believe you're a possible scumbuddy of his (passive defense, early attack on a premise that is easily dropped, etc), and calling out SK as an Aes Sedai doesn't sit well with me (including the subsequent backtracking when you got called on it).

That's not a case. As for Fabian, I left the site Saturday the 2nd at 5:43 pm and Fabian self-destructed before I returned Monday morning. Check your timestamps. The only "defense" I can see is post 551:

Unless ABR comes out and counterclaims this, I think it's obvious that Fabian is the scum here. Why are you people not seeing this?

I'm sure you'll

discover

that I'm Fabian's scumbuddy because of this, but have you not considered that the ability to detect usage of the OP every time would be a little overpowered in a Deep South game? Just because it's not location-based doesn't mean there's not some limitation, like how closely the two have posted to each other, or something.

Flay: Explain to me how lynching a jester is a pro-town action. You arriving at the conclusion that he's a jester is suspect enough, but I can't begin to fathom how lynching him would ever benefit the town.

Seriously? I don't mind if people suspect me, but this tendency to vote without a reason is seriously irritating. WHY do people think lynching a Jester is "scum" or "third-party" behavior? Jesters distract from lynching scum. Day One especially, eliminating one would be useful for the rest of the game. If you think there is a Jester in a game, when IS the right time to kill them? The Mafia/SKs aren't going to do it! We've seen no evidence yet of a vigilante, and in any case, they'd have to believe my case to use up their action (and be able to kill third-party roles, if they're Aes Sedai).

I've backed off from thinking SpyreX is a Jester (though I haven't ruled it out), but I really cannot fathom what people think I SHOULD have done with that theory/knowledge. Everyone suspecting me on that score (and that seems to be the primary reason, for those giving reasons at all) should answer this immediately.

[Mr. Flay]

Flay, from what I remember, in the Newbie you replaced into with me, you were far more aggressive then here. Why?

Flay's posts feel like he's holding back

I'm extremely time-limited (I'm literally playing hookey from work to post at all this week). I don't want to be replaced because it SUCKS to put someone into a vulnerable position and make them answer for things they can't know, but I think my briefer-than-usual posts are a null tell. My site-wide posts mirror my activity in this game exactly.

As for Slicey: I can understand this wagon, but at least he's actually doing something (or said that he would).

Can or can't understand the wagon?

Seriously? I don't mind if people suspect me, but this tendency to vote without a reason is seriously irritating.

Was this directed at me? I'm not voting you.

Yes. You're not voting me, but you're calling me out. So I'm trying to respond to my attackers as much as possible.

Can the town win while a jester is still alive? I was working under that impression, but it just hit me that I'm probably wrong about that.

If the town needs a jester dead to win, then I actually agree day 1 is a good time to get rid of one. If not, then I can't see any convincing reason to waste a lynch on one.

Still, how common are jesters? Common enough to be a legitimate consideration, or no?

No, the town does not lose if a Jester lives to the end of the game (actually the Jester usually loses at that point, hence SpyreX' "I shouldn't live to endgame in any case" being part of my case. He has ASKED to be killed!

Are they common? No. But this game isn't in any way limited to normal roles or role distributions, so that's not really a criterion in my book. I look at the claim of "male channeler"

flavor

(I really feel like I'm repeating myself here), and then looked at what that might map to.

1. Jester or other Suicidal role. Male channelers go crazy with the Taint, so wanting to die before they harm others is a perfectly valid construction to me.
   
2. Miller - obvious reasons, especially with Red Ajah, Aes Sedai, and . The problem with letting Millers stick around is it encourages scum to make the claim and deflect investigations. Also, Miller is not preclusive of being a Suicidal role, it could be an adjunct.
   
3. Proto-SK - I was far from the only one to think this to begin with, although I think it's somewhat less likely now (only somewhat because he's NOT confirmed town to anyone except perhaps himself. Even the people who targeted him for gentling don't know if it worked, if we're to believe the role claims given thus far). That's a risk, but a small one until we know more about the NK distributions in this game. I don't think we're going to get 1 kill/faction in this game, anyway, hence the three dismemberments.
   
4. Pro-town power role - yeah, possible, but unlikely in my book. Male channelers are at their MOST crazy and dangerous at this stage of the Wheel of Time series, because the taint hit full male Aes Sedai with all their knowledge and training. An untrained boy might be less of a threat, but we don't know which role SpyreX has/had.

Flay, mentioning a Jester brings up lynch WIFOM and therefore makes things even more confounding, which is scummy.

I get that people think I'm crazy for overthinking the male channeler role. But I can only tell you what I think, not what you want to hear. I thought SpyreX was our best lynch until Fabian self-destructed, which happened while I wasn't here.

Vote: julienvonwolfe

Worse than Slicey and Mufasa

together

.

Why?

[Mr. Flay]

I actually think rolefishing day 1 is a pretty good scumtell, as far as day 1 scumtells go anyway; it's something scum really have a strong motive for doing, especally on day 1, and town should not do it, especally on day 1.

So why are you going after me specifically? How about Myndrunner (post 9), MacavityLock (with the whole repeat-after-me thing), or SpyreX for "testing" Fabian's claim? I'm out of battery time or I'd look up more.

Additionally, the Shadow Knight thing makes no sense

in a game with daytalking

. If I have buddies, why not tell them there, rather than breadcrumbing?!? If I don't have buddies (i.e. the SK theory), what good does it do me to breadcrumb where the protective roles or whatnot can pick it up? If anything, SK screwed himself over by reacting to me so strongly. I guess that was my goal, huh, not STOPPING ROLECRUMBING?

Somebody mentioned my telling Fabian to stop telling us how his role worked. At that point I thought it likely he was pro-town and telling us HOW it worked, WHERE it worked, and WHO it worked on, was only going to help the scum avoid him.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm all defense because of having no time. If I can get a decent reread of the thread done, I'll post more substance, but I haven't been on the site in two days and my connection is extremely slow tonight.

I'd appreciate not being speedlynched in the next 12 hours, kthxbye.

[Mr. Flay]

FoS: Slicey

- I really don't see where you get off making statements like "Spyre is basically confirmed town at this point" in your accusations on me. You don't know ANYTHING more about his alignment, pre or post-gentling, than I do, but several people are now assuming that he's "confirmed". That's nothing to do with me, unless/until his alignment is revealed and you can 'check' my suspicions on him being third-party. Furthermore, you're claiming that JVW said SpyreX was now gentled, but ABR said that it wasn't guaranteed to work. Run that by me again?

I'm on vacation and it's leaving me with even less computer time than I had before (I'll be home on the 26th), but I can at least satisfy the calls for a claim now that other people are jumping on the bandwagon. Maybe this will explain a bit more of my actions. I have skimmed the last several pages but am not considering this a response to any other questions except the requests for a claim.

I'm not an Aes Sedai. I'm a local,

a horse trader named Lilal Andro

. My ability is to lie-detect, but it's fairly limited. I'm not giving details on exactly how it works unless there's strong consensus for that, as it will nerf my ability. I can do it once per day and haven't used it yet today , so I can confirm it if necessary. I'll leave the dangers of using it publicly as an exercise for the readers.

And yes, I used it Day One so I know with as much certainty as I can one person's alignment (and they turned out to be pro-town). Day Two it was blocked.

[Mr. Flay]

Flay use your ability on Spyrex to see if he told the truth about him being gentled.

That's what I tried to do yesterday actually. The global block thwarted me.

Moratorium: My D1 target is still alive, yes, so I'll declare them before I die if I still get lynched, but not before without good reason (like a bandwagon).

Others: I can work with an entire post not just a single declarative statement, so I'd prefer if it combined truth and lies. The difficulty being that it can't be someone who is an Aes Sedai, for that reason... so either it's someone we already know not to be one, or who doesn't mind being outed. And I'd *really* prefer that the statements be about the game, not what they had for lunch, since I only get this once a day. Sleeping locations, especially from last night when everything apparently got blocked, seems a weak use.

[Mr. Flay]

(mind you that this, of course, isn't the absolute best use of it because if Flay IS scum he, of course, is going to say I am telling the truth but hay)

This.

He's just going to say you were gentled, and even if you weren't

you're

not going to contradict him, I believe you were btw but this is kinda testing Flay...so idk

Huh? Why would I (lie and) say he was gentled when I've been arguing all along that we don't know he's gentled?

Flay, I can understand not giving out details on your ability ... So, couple questions before I make up a bunch of statements to check the validity since I think I am a good pig for it.

I am perfectly willing to target you with it again, since you seem a good candidate in that you already have a non-AS claim out there, and you are a big question mark in my book.

1.) Do you get a "X has lied" or "This statement by X is a lie."

I get the whole post back, with both lies and truthful statements marked.

2.) Further, and this is tricky: does it have to be, like the aes sedai, where if they believe it it is true OR is it a binary (this is a lie / this isn't a lie) regardless of whether or not they believe it.

I don't know what happens if the post has subjective statements, but my guess is they'll either be unmarked or marked truthful if the mod doesn't know outright that they're a lie/false "belief". That seems to dovetail with the Aes Sedai prohibition on lying.

Flay's claim is kinda bleh. Go ahead and lynch him.

This post makes no sense. Expand please on why you think it's "bleh"? The lack of details on mechanics? Stay tuned...

That power is interesting. Can you use it on posts from day 1 on day 2? Or is it only statements made that day?

I'd rather not say at present.

[Mr. Flay]

As for why I don't believe Flay's claim, it seems sketchy to me that he gets results on an entire post, especially since there could be subjective statements in it. I don't think Kinetic would have designed a role to work like that. It seems more likely that he would have you check one statement rather than an entire post.

Sounds to me like you just volunteered to have me lie-detect you today. Or are you panicked scum trying to kill off a role that looks overpowered to your side?

UnFoS: Slicey, FoS: MoS

- you've been accusing me of incompetence ever since you entered the game. I didn't think the role sounds reasonable either when I got it, but why would I claim something so complex and easily falsifiable if I could make the simpler claim you're theorizing? Think, man!

And I'm not going to claim the rest of the role's details just on your say-so; doing so might nerf the ability irretrievably.

Flay, claim your Day 1 target and results before it is too late.

I will before it's too late, but now is not that time, just on your threat. And I've already told you the result; I know someone isn't lying about their win condition being pro-town.

[Mr. Flay]

I'm not giving details on exactly how it works unless there's strong consensus for that, as it will nerf my ability.

This is SO scummy.

Uhh? Not telling scum precisely how to evade my ability is scummy?

Wait, SpyreX, did you lose the requirement to follow the Oaths when you were gentled?

Male channelers don't have Oaths. Only Aes Sedai (and 'good' AS at that) are obligated to tell the truth. It's a function of the society, not the One Power.

Lie detect this, then.

I know information about Flay's role and/or actions that directly implicates him as possible scum, information he did NOT reveal to the town.

Done. I'll tell you when I get a result.

If he was protown, he would have revealed this information. He lied to us when he claimed, and we should lynch him now. I gave him a chance to come clean, and he did not. As such, I no longer have any reason to believe that the information I have *could* come from a protown person.

No, I do not intend to reveal the nature of this information, because not only will it help Flay-scum try to weasel out of being lynched, but it will help other scum gauge how much of a threat I am to them. Lynch Flay, and you will see I am correct.

Flay, I will only ask this one more time:

Who did you target Day 1?

I have no idea what you think you've got on me, but it seems this has come to a head. I actually think MBL's plan is more useful, but I'll lie detect you instead.

I verified to myself that ABR is pro-town Day One; I can pull the exact post if you like, it came back 100% truthful. I already told you who I tried to target Day Two. That's the extent of my abilities.

[Mr. Flay]

You morons. Why would you lynch me before I get to tell you what the mod told me MoS' post was about? This was the dumbest thing yet in this game, and after 65 pages it really takes some doing to claim that 'honor'. You KNEW I was on vacation but you just couldn't wait another 12 hours, could you?

Screw it. MoS played you but good, now you've got to live with it. G'night!

[Mr. Flay]

Light, am I not dead yet? Okay, look; Kinetic said that one statement in MoS' post was a lie but wouldn't tell me which one. Apparently I misread exactly how the role works. I can't give you anything more than that at this point.

So have a song...

We'll drink the wine till the cup is dry,
and kiss the girls so they'll not cry,
and toss the dice until we fly
to dance with Jak o' the Shadows...

We'll dance all night while the moon runs free,
and dandle the lasses upon our knee,
and then you'll ride along with me,
to dance with Jak o' the Shadows...

We'll sing all night, and drink all day,
and on the girls we'll spend our pay,
and when it's gone, then we'll away,
to dance with Jak o' the Shadows...

There's some delight in ale and wine,
and some in girls with ankles fine,
but my delight, yes, always mine,
is to dance with Jak o' the Shadows...

[Mr. Flay]

Nice try MoS. I'm not dead, just on the gallows.

[Mr. Flay]

This game made me realize I have to quit mafia, which I'm bummed about. Getting speed lynched while V/LA over July 4th weekend after replacing into a game that took me WAY too long to read made me rethink how I'm spending my time. Goodbye forever, scummers!

I don't think you should go, especially if it's because of this game. Try playing some more 'pure' Mafia games for a while, and see if that changes your opinion. It's certainly possible to get too sucked in by Theme Games and lose the thread...

Speaking of which, Kinetic I have a question I didn't have the heart to ask when I died: Why did MoS know I lied? Was it actually Mora's Eavesdrop? Because otherwise I can't figure out how he caught me Weaving Inverted (Saidin, no less), and he doesn't seem to have had any other powers that interact with my role.

[Mr. Flay]

I suppose that comes down to the wording of my role PM, then. So he actually detected my ability to talk to others? Because I don't think Inverted Weaves should be Trackable.. .that's sort of the point of Inverting them.

Also, I'm REALLY irritated at the lack of enforcement of Ability Rule #6. Scum counted on being able to manipulate actions at several points by shutting things down before people could make informed choices. I disagree overall with "all choices must be sent in by lynchfall" games, but if that's going to be the rule, it should be enforced, especially the way you worded it.

You did a pretty good job, especially for a game as complex as this one was, but it really seemed to come apart at the seams several times, with revised detections coming out, holding twilight for choices and the like. I'm not surprised the game ended up revolving around night actions, as it seemed to be the only thing going on compared to the day game.

Anyway, back to sewing my Sammael costume! Good game to everyone who stuck with it...

[Mr. Flay]

If I'd claimed Aes Sedai, it would have gone even worse for me even faster, because there's no Male Aes Sedai in the game, and the detection grid would have caught me sooner rather than later.

I did screw up by keeping my name out of the Mafia QT for a while, but I was worried about a Traitor role. That was my mistaken, because a Traitor could already have scammed off all the other Black Ajah, and I was distracted by my own importance as a Chosen.

I got caught by my role, not the stupid "Jester" herring (which wasn't my best case, but was factually correct rather than misleading, at least). A Jester in this game would have been bad, bad, bad, due to all the Night Actions.

Finally, yes, MBL we were lucky nobody ever listened to you. Good game, at least the portion I was in.