Mini 757 - South Park Mafia (Game Over)


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Post Post #450 (ISO) » Sun Apr 19, 2009 9:58 am

Post by charter »

Anchor: But who exactly is... Mysterion?
Cartman: What?!
Anchor: Curious crowds in the town of South Park, Colorado. They've brought binoculars and camera phones trying to get a shot of a mysterius superhero.
Man 1: Uh, he was dressed mostly in black with a kind of... cloak.
Woman 1: He jumped down from the fire escape stairs, and then he just ran off. We barely got a look at him.
Man 2: To me it looked like Mysterion to me. Everyone who's seen Mysterion, say yeah!
Crowd: Yeah!
Man 3: Well I, I think he's kind of a symbol for the town, you know? A, a a symbol.that everyone who's sick of crime can uh can rally behind.
Cartman: Fuckin' butthole!
Man 4: Well if you ask me, he's a menace. There's no room for vigilantism in today's world!
Reporter: This artist rendition of Mysterion has already generated thousands of copies.


Vote Count

Debonair Danny DiPietro - 1 (Empking)
ZazieR - 1 (Debonair Danny DiPietro

Not Voting (6)

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Wall-E
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RestFermata


With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch!
Deadline is April 26th at midnight EST.

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Post Post #451 (ISO) » Sun Apr 19, 2009 11:13 pm

Post by Spolium »

Wall-E wrote:Spolium: Do you disagree with my callout on you about telling the town who is town?
To an extent. While I understand where you're coming from, I do feel that such information can be useful and would not call for a general consensus on who is considered town.
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Post Post #452 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 12:36 am

Post by Empking »

I haven't really noticed a change in Spoilum's play. We had two very scummy players yesterday and now we don't really.
Plus, if you guys want to make a point, skip the walls, because everyone else in the game does as well. - Magister Ludi
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Post Post #453 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 7:51 am

Post by ZazieR »

@DDD (post 445)
If you actually believed that then why didn't you step in and either present another candidate for lynch or push the idea of a no lynch instead of just sitting back and letting it happen?
Misrep. Your reason for voting RBT was weak. I never said that the general case against RBT was weak.
Because the more information we have the better off we are, it's a very simple principle. Even things we don't think are terribly important might hold the key to figuring everything out.
Sure, keep it vague. Just tell how this information would have helped us. Everyone can say:
'This information is helpful, because information is helpful'. That's a fallacy.
Fail. Doesn't take into account that I had thought there was a real contradiction there, hence I thought the point was relevant to my mind.

To support this continuing hilarity you'd have to believe that I...
Read RBT's role claim and willingly chose to ignore it.
Then breadcrumbed this fact.
Then presented an argument that I would know had no validity against Empking, but intentionally didn't push too hard to leave myself a WIFOM backdoor.
Then admitted to my point being wrong bringing major suspicion from everyone else in the game.

So you have to assume I'm both a genius setting up backdoor after backdoor to wiggle out of this scenario, but that I'm an idiot who wouldn't have considered the most obvious ramifications of posting an indisputably incorrect argument.
Did you actually take that part serious?
I'm sorry that I interrupted your laziness. My point was to do exactly what it did, to give you a reason to step back into the game and actually participate.
No, your vote didn't have that effect.
FuzzyLightning hadn't posted anywhere for five days after his first post in this game. He clearly had gone missing from the site as a whole at that point, thus voting for him was stupid since what he actually needed a prod/replacement. You on the other hand had been participating in other games since your last post, you were just choosing to ignore this one and such behavior is not helpful to the town at all.
Before I get into this, was it scummy of me to ignore this game? And why?


Also, I asked everyone to give their thoughts about a massclaim. Why didn't you answer that, and what's your opinion of it?
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Post Post #454 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:02 am

Post by Wall-E »

ZazieR wrote:@DDD (post 445)
If you actually believed that then why didn't you step in and either present another candidate for lynch or push the idea of a no lynch instead of just sitting back and letting it happen?
Misrep. Your reason for voting RBT was weak. I never said that the general case against RBT was weak.
Is that a misrep or perhaps just a misunderstanding? A misrep carries some burden of proof of intent. What would be the benefit of someone trying to trick you (?) into believing you meant something you didn't?
ZazieR wrote:
Because the more information we have the better off we are, it's a very simple principle. Even things we don't think are terribly important might hold the key to figuring everything out.
Sure, keep it vague. Just tell how this information would have helped us. Everyone can say:
'This information is helpful, because information is helpful'. That's a fallacy.
No, that is a fact. Information is helpful. The word vague fits better than fallacy.

Let me ask you a question: How would the information HURT us?
ZazieR wrote:
Spolium wrote:Fail. Doesn't take into account that I had thought there was a real contradiction there, hence I thought the point was relevant to my mind.

To support this continuing hilarity you'd have to believe that I...
Read RBT's role claim and willingly chose to ignore it.
Then breadcrumbed this fact.
Then presented an argument that I would know had no validity against Empking, but intentionally didn't push too hard to leave myself a WIFOM backdoor.
Then admitted to my point being wrong bringing major suspicion from everyone else in the game.

So you have to assume I'm both a genius setting up backdoor after backdoor to wiggle out of this scenario, but that I'm an idiot who wouldn't have considered the most obvious ramifications of posting an indisputably incorrect argument.
Did you actually take that part serious?
Please explain what you meant by this, ZazieR. It's unclear.
ZazieR wrote:
I'm sorry that I interrupted your laziness. My point was to do exactly what it did, to give you a reason to step back into the game and actually participate.
No, your vote didn't have that effect.
Is this sarcasm?
ZazieR wrote:Also, I asked everyone to give their thoughts about a massclaim. Why didn't you answer that, and what's your opinion of it?
ZazieR is trying to capitalize on Spolium's attentions on DDD to push a weak lynch.

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Post Post #455 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:11 am

Post by ZazieR »

Spolium has to wait...

@Wall-E
Is that a misrep or perhaps just a misunderstanding? A misrep carries some burden of proof of intent. What would be the benefit of someone trying to trick you (?) into believing you meant something you didn't?
Then it's a misunderstanding. Hello, Dutch and blonde here.
No, that is a fact. Information is helpful. The word vague fits better than fallacy.

Let me ask you a question: How would the information HURT us?
It's not that it hurts us, it's that I see more why scum want to know if it's shown in the NK or not.

And if information is always helpful, then please explain why the information we would receive from a mass claim is not helpful?
Please explain what you meant by this, ZazieR. It's unclear.
I'm saying that I was joking to that part to which DDD responded. please tell me how this could ever be taken seriously:
Zaz wrote:I'm in the mood for some circular logic here :D Here it comes:
Is this sarcasm?
No, it's not. You've played a game with me before. You're actually saying that I was fully present at all times in that game?
ZazieR is trying to capitalize on Spolium's attentions on DDD to push a weak lynch.
Zaz wrote:Anyway, I'll wait with my vote till I've heard the responses to my posts.
Tell me where I've said that I was aiming for a DDD lynch today?
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Post Post #456 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:34 am

Post by ZazieR »

@Spolium
It was some 3 days until deadline, a new candidate for a lynch had to be found in the wake of Dej's claim (when there were no other major candidates), RBT was acting suspiciously and not putting much effort into defending herself. I gave her a reasonable amount of time in which to do so, then placed my vote as per the ultimatum.

How exactly was a "power role fishing" in this case?
Exactly. So it's strange that you didn't join the case you made against RBT. We had to find somebody else. During this time, you let other players jump on the wagon. Easy way for you to stay out of it.
But yeah, I forgot that RBT had claimed vanilla, so my 'power role fishing' isn't valid.

You probably did it somewhere already, but please explain your point into asking who seemed the least scummy to another player?
What we know so far is there is a mafia team called the "Sixth Grade Wannabes" and that Tweek was one of them. Tweek is normally a fairly "innocent" character and suffers a great deal due to his caffeine-induced skittishness and a lack of courtesy from his peers, so the earlier assessment that charter wouldn't assign obvious "bad" characters as mafia due to roles not being clear cut was, evidently, correct.
Not true. Won't say more about that.
On the flipside, however, we also know that roles and flavour are matched to an extent (i.e. Kenny died, Kyle is fairly smart and has helped with a high profile investigation in the series, Mr. Mackey ended up being weak doc which I had previously suggested was a possibility in terms of role allocation). I would imagine scum have much more to gain from a nameclaim than town would right now, so FoS Zazier
So because it counted for three players, it counts for all? But didn't you just say that it didn't count for Tweek? And for me it doesn't count as well.
- Determining what certain players thought of other players (duh)
- Hopefully spurring players to have a closer look at someone they may have overlooked
- Now you know
- And knowing is half the battle
- GI JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOE
Says the player who has been less active during day 2 and followed other players their cases during day 2. Besides, what's the point in asking about their thoughts on a random player picked by you, then those who they suspect?
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Post Post #457 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:47 am

Post by Wall-E »

I should have said, "PUshing a weak CASE" not "pushing a weak Lynch"

'Blonde Dutch people' are just as smart as Norwegians and Buddhists and Republicans and human slaves. Don't be a bigot (Especially not self-depricatingly! You should know better!) and especially not to dismiss your own actions. The retraction is acceptable, but not the bigotry.
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Post Post #458 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:48 am

Post by ZazieR »

I don't even know what bigotry is >.<
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Post Post #459 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:48 am

Post by ZazieR »

And DDD is scummy as hell. The only one who is worse is Spolium.
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Post Post #460 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:56 am

Post by Wall-E »

ZazieR wrote:
No, that is a fact. Information is helpful. The word vague fits better than fallacy.

Let me ask you a question: How would the information HURT us?
It's not that it hurts us, it's that I see more why scum want to know if it's shown in the NK or not.

And if information is always helpful, then please explain why the information we would receive from a mass claim is not helpful?
I disagree. I think it's reasonable that a townie would be curious about kill flavor. A scum would probably have asked in a private message to the moderator. WIFOM applies to make it a null tell.

The information we would recieve from a mass claim IS helpful. To both the town AND the scum. See? Information is always helpful.
ZazieR wrote:
Please explain what you meant by this, ZazieR. It's unclear.
I'm saying that I was joking to that part to which DDD responded. please tell me how this could ever be taken seriously:
Zaz wrote:I'm in the mood for some circular logic here :D Here it comes:
Uh... good one?
Is this sarcasm?
No, it's not. You've played a game with me before. You're actually saying that I was fully present at all times in that game?
Dismissiveness and a meta-defense are two things that will keep you smelling scummy-fresh in my book.
ZazieR wrote:
ZazieR is trying to capitalize on Spolium's attentions on DDD to push a weak lynch.
Zaz wrote:Anyway, I'll wait with my vote till I've heard the responses to my posts.
Tell me where I've said that I was aiming for a DDD lynch today?
You're keeping the option to vote him open. You just quoted yourself stating such. The reasons you've given to lead-up to this potential vote are weak at-best, in my honest opinion, as I've tried to demonstrate.

Vote stays. You've done little to assuage my suspicion.
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Post Post #461 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:59 am

Post by Wall-E »

ZazieR wrote:I don't even know what bigotry is >.<
This is an arguably inaccurate definition.
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Post Post #462 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:59 am

Post by ZazieR »

I'm not even gonna bother. May I just claim and give my reason for a mass claim?

And I'm waiting till Spolium has answered every question. That's my reason for not voting yet.
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Post Post #463 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:05 am

Post by Wall-E »

I'm supremely interested in how Spolium will address the questions you've posed to him. I'm going to
Unvote
to give you time to continue grilling him.
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Post Post #464 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:06 am

Post by Wall-E »

Why in the chickenfart would you claim!?!?!
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Post Post #465 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:07 am

Post by ZazieR »

Because I have probably info regarding the kill flavour question DDD and Spolium asked.
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Post Post #466 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 10:23 am

Post by Spolium »

Timmy? Hrrrmgh Timmeh. Jaaaargh! Haah.
ZazieR wrote:
It was some 3 days until deadline, a new candidate for a lynch had to be found in the wake of Dej's claim (when there were no other major candidates), RBT was acting suspiciously and not putting much effort into defending herself. I gave her a reasonable amount of time in which to do so, then placed my vote as per the ultimatum.
Exactly. So it's strange that you didn't join the case you made against RBT. We had to find somebody else. During this time, you let other players jump on the wagon. Easy way for you to stay out of it.
I
did
join the case which I made on RBT. I placed the fifth vote.

Put simply, I was conscious of the fact that RBT hadn't said a lot in her defence, so I provided a list of reasons for which I would vote her and suggested that she put some effort into defending herself. She didn't, so I placed my vote as I said I would.

Now, kindly explain why you're pushing the idea that I didn't follow up on my case
when I clearly did
.
ZazieR wrote:You probably did it somewhere already, but please explain your point into asking who seemed the least scummy to another player?
Because Caf struck me as most town at the time, so I found his input in that regard valuable.
ZazieR wrote:
What we know so far is there is a mafia team called the "Sixth Grade Wannabes" and that Tweek was one of them. Tweek is normally a fairly "innocent" character and suffers a great deal due to his caffeine-induced skittishness and a lack of courtesy from his peers, so the earlier assessment that charter wouldn't assign obvious "bad" characters as mafia due to roles not being clear cut was, evidently, correct.
Not true. Won't say more about that.
For the record, I worded that poorly. I didn't mean that charter would
completely
avoid putting "bad" characters on the scum team, but rather that scum team would not necessarily be made up of regular antagonists.
ZazieR wrote:
On the flipside, however, we also know that roles and flavour are matched to an extent (i.e. Kenny died, Kyle is fairly smart and has helped with a high profile investigation in the series, Mr. Mackey ended up being weak doc which I had previously suggested was a possibility in terms of role allocation). I would imagine scum have much more to gain from a nameclaim than town would right now, so FoS Zazier
So because it counted for three players, it counts for all? But didn't you just say that it didn't count for Tweek?
My comment on Tweek was regarding his place on the scum team. Tweek is not a regular antagonist in the cartoon, so it was clear that scum would not be easily identifiable through a nameclaim, rendering a nameclaim less useful.

My comment on those three characters related to
a link between flavour and role
, which is different. It made some degree of sense for those characters to have those roles. This has been eveident for a while now, so IMO a push for a nameclaim is tantamount to power-role fishing.
ZazieR wrote:And for me it doesn't count as well.
Wait, didn't you say that you "won't say more about that"? Please make up your mind; If you have something useful to contribute, please do so instead of doing a half-arsed skim of the thread and declaring me to be scummy.
ZazieR wrote:
- Determining what certain players thought of other players (duh)
- Hopefully spurring players to have a closer look at someone they may have overlooked
- Now you know
- And knowing is half the battle
- GI JOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOE
Says the player who has been less active during day 2 and followed other players their cases during day 2.
How has this got anything to do with my request for analysis? I explained my activity in my last post to you. I'm sure you can do better than just parrot an out-of-context point made by someone else.
ZazieR wrote:Besides, what's the point in asking about their thoughts on a random player picked by you, then those who they suspect?
Ah, so you assume my picks were random?

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Post Post #467 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 1:27 pm

Post by Debonair Danny DiPietro »

ZazieR wrote:
If you actually believed that then why didn't you step in and either present another candidate for lynch or push the idea of a no lynch instead of just sitting back and letting it happen?
Misrep. Your reason for voting RBT was weak. I never said that the general case against RBT was weak.
me wrote:As for targets I like the arguments put forward by Spolium about his target [263]... but those are minor things compared to the arguments presented against RBT.

As it stands however, I believe RBT is the best choice today; she’s provided next to no content other than agreeing when it’s easy and convenient to do so; making it obvious she’s still around but simply and willfully not participating. Also, if we assume her post restriction is authentic then her lynch would be helpful in at very least eliminating how the town is broken up between scum and town.
My best work ever? No. But hardly the atrocity some of you people seem to be claiming it is.
Sure, keep it vague. Just tell how this information would have helped us. Everyone can say:
'This information is helpful, because information is helpful'. That's a fallacy.
Wall-E already noted that it's not a fallacy, though it is vague. I'll also note that while I was interested in the answer, my part in it was to clarify what Spolium had asked so Dej could understand it. I'll also reiterate that I'm not going to turn down any piece of information which might help us catch scum.
Did you actually take that part serious?
Apparently, considering I've been hit on all sides on the point it's quite possible that I'm a little defensive about the point.
No, your vote didn't have that effect.
A coincidence then, how lovely.
Before I get into this, was it scummy of me to ignore this game? And why?
It demonstrates an unwillingness to help the town find scum, it slows up the game for everyone making it that much harder for the game to proceed in any fashion, and it limits the information the town has to make the proper decisions.
Also, I asked everyone to give their thoughts about a massclaim. Why didn't you answer that, and what's your opinion of it?
Had to give it some thought as to positives and negatives. In the end I don't think it's a good idea. If the town is fragmented at all after the claims it'll likely lead to an easy scum victory, as will the town taking off together in the wrong direction. I think these are more likely to occur then the town moving in lockstep to victory. Furthermore, it seems possible as Spolium noted to link names and roles, so by undertaking this plan it could give inadvertently give scum the most important information they don't have.
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Post Post #468 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:03 pm

Post by Wall-E »

Debonair Danny DiPietro wrote:
Before I get into this, was it scummy of me to ignore this game? And why?
It demonstrates an unwillingness to help the town find scum, it slows up the game for everyone making it that much harder for the game to proceed in any fashion, and it limits the information the town has to make the proper decisions.


It's anti-town, for certain. As to whether it's scummy, that's case by case. Sometimes a lurker is just a lurker. Let's not get into a lurker policy argument unless we think it's pertinent, please.
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Post Post #469 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:05 pm

Post by Wall-E »

Had to give it some thought as to positives and negatives. In the end I don't think it's a good idea. If the town is fragmented at all after the claims it'll likely lead to an easy scum victory, as will the town taking off together in the wrong direction. I think these are more likely to occur then the town moving in lockstep to victory. Furthermore, it seems possible as Spolium noted to link names and roles, so by undertaking this plan it could give inadvertently give scum the most important information they don't have.
I agree with this sentiment 200%.
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Post Post #470 (ISO) » Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:29 pm

Post by Spolium »

ZazieR wrote:May I just claim and give my reason for a mass claim?
Whoa, I missed this totally.

Zaz, if you think your claim will benefit the town and not put scum in a better position then by all means do so. Please try not to leave it until the last minute though, we can't afford to rush a decision with the deadline looming.
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Post Post #471 (ISO) » Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:42 am

Post by ZazieR »

Spolium wrote:
ZazieR wrote:May I just claim and give my reason for a mass claim?
Whoa, I missed this totally.

Zaz, if you think your claim will benefit the town and not put scum in a better position then by all means do so. Please try not to leave it until the last minute though, we can't afford to rush a decision with the deadline looming.
I've got info that Dejkha didn't use his night action, and that he was probably killed by the scum.
Should I claim it all, or would that give to much info to the scum?
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Post Post #472 (ISO) » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:18 am

Post by Spolium »

Timmamaaaaaarghg! Blaraghauagshdygdybf TIMMY TIMMY TIMMY

Well, if dej had actually used his ability - and his ability was exactly as he claimed - then the result would've been the same anyway. I'm not sure how your information helps in that case.

I'd like to see what others have to say about your desire to claim. It seems that your information could be useful to an extent, but we're already down 3 power roles so it would make more sense to keep it under your hat IMO.

Tiraaaahaggghmym

That aside, I'm strongly in favour of a Ghostwriter lynch.

- First act was to vote RBT with weak reasoning
- Egged on the case against dejkha, specifically supporting my arguments, had lots to say
- Didn't actually place a vote on dej despite the above
- Reason for backing off dej (#245) reminiscent of EsoMonty's reason for doing the same
- Dropped hammer on RBT, implying vague agreement with my case against her (no mention of his initial reason for voting her)
- Egged on the DDD wagon (#332), again without placing his vote

In short, he has lurked through the majority of the game (15 posts total, a fair chunk of which are filler posts), failed to demonstrate any sort of interest in other players (except those already under suspicion). Reading #353 with our current knowledge about Eso rings little bells in my head too.

vote: Ghostwriter


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ZazieR
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Post Post #473 (ISO) » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:28 am

Post by ZazieR »

I'll look later at your case against GW, Spolium.

I had to check another game for one of my ongoings, and in that finished game, I realised that Empking might actually be right. So I first want to explore this.
Ignore the ''R''
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Post Post #474 (ISO) » Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:42 am

Post by caf19 »

Wall-E wrote:It's anti-town, for certain. As to whether it's scummy, that's case by case. Sometimes a lurker is just a lurker. Let's not get into a lurker policy argument unless we think it's pertinent, please.
This.

I am quite worried by Zazie's tendency to debunk her own points.
ZazieR wrote:Did you actually take that part serious?
ZazieR wrote:Yeah, use the difficult words on the Dutch girl :roll:
ZazieR wrote:Then it's a misunderstanding. Hello, Dutch and blonde here.
It's like an easy way out - whenever someone comes up with a good counter argument against her, she just says that the point wasn't serious or was dumb and didn't mean anything, and she therefore can't be suspected for it. Why would you post these points in the first place if they were so silly or useless? I doubt that you would be posting these self-discreditations if nobody had countered the points to begin with.
ZazieR wrote:
Spolium wrote:
ZazieR wrote:May I just claim and give my reason for a mass claim?
Whoa, I missed this totally.

Zaz, if you think your claim will benefit the town and not put scum in a better position then by all means do so. Please try not to leave it until the last minute though, we can't afford to rush a decision with the deadline looming.
I've got info that Dejkha didn't use his night action, and that he was probably killed by the scum.
Should I claim it all, or would that give to much info to the scum?
Why would the scum have killed dej? If he survived the night, he would have been an obvious lynch. Not sure how believable this is, although maybe it's because I don't know the whole story. :?

Given that it's only five or six days to deadline, I think you should either claim what you want to claim now, or suspend discussion of it until tomorrow. We need a full lynching majority in this game and discussion is still fairly unfocused with that in mind.

Mod
, prod GhostWriter please?
caf

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