Mini 761 - Game Over

[LesterGroans]

EDIT: sorry,

Unvote

Vote: Panzerjager

[alexhans]

and that's all you say?

FoS Lester

... Dude... Why the rush? JAzz hasn't answered my questions yet. Remember that.

DDD never looked at panzer.
There could be some bussing here. Jazz did it in other games (check her wiki).
Let's be careful tomorrow (if there is one).

[X]

Vote Count

Panzerjager

: (5) Jazzmyn, LesterGroans, ryan2754, Stephoscope, Zachrulez

Stephoscope

: (2) Debonair Danny DiPietro, Panzerjager

Debonair Danny DiPietro

: (1)

AshKetchummm

Not Voting

: (1) alexhans

Vote Threshold

: 5

Happiness with Posting Level

:

Disappointed

It is now Twilight 2.

[Jazzmyn]

and that's all you say?

FoS Lester

... Dude... Why the rush? JAzz hasn't answered my questions yet. Remember that.

DDD never looked at panzer.
There could be some bussing here. Jazz did it in other games (check her wiki).
Let's be careful tomorrow (if there is one).

Don't worry, Alex. Panzer was quite obviously lying, so it is pretty certain that he is scum. As for me answering your questions, if I'm alive tomorrow, I'll do so. If I'm NKed, that all by itself will be all the answer you need.

Regards,
Jazz

[alexhans]

Ok... But I would've liked to discuss everything further and let everyone participate. We didn't even get an Ash replacement.

By lynching Panz now and not later... Scum accomplishes a great deal in refusing to get tied up by Panzes declarations and the other player's actions. He was a liability to them (This is all asuming I'm right about him being scum, wich I'm practically sure of).

And since Panzer claimed Watcher lester didn't asked him a single question... I don't like his rush to vote.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

DDD never looked at panzer.

Not even close to being true, I looked and didn't find anything that compelled me to believe one option was much more likely than any other. That doesn't mean I didn't look, it means I didn't find anything in that look that convinced me of a superior opinion.

Your points in 526 were mediocre.

On re-read #1 could be scum looking to at least get a claim on the board; to a lesser degree a watcher would possibly consider being watched or tracked and targeting Amished would make him highly suspicious. Maybe the best point against Panz in retrospect.

I don't see anything especially interesting in #2. #3 isn't inconsistent with a watcher claim. #4 falls perfectly in line with my own play style, I don't generally speculate on night actions and will use the likely numbers to make projections about alignments, not a scumtell.

Anyways, I ran a similar argument to Panz's as scum in a newbie game claiming cop so I won't be surprised if he flips scum, but I don't run dumb gambits so it's certainly plausible as something a pro-town player would do.

[alexhans]

ok... post 551 is just me freaking out that I might die tomorrow and letting my suspicions in the open.

Your points in 526 were mediocre.

I don't think they are worse than your case on Zach (a case that you called early on day 2 and you looked pretty convinced).
526 is not my whole case. It's a corolary given the last things Panz had said and his claim. My case is much bigger and sounder and a lot of people agree with it in general so I'm guessing it's not mediocre.

I don't see anything especially interesting in #2. #3 isn't inconsistent with a watcher claim. #4 falls perfectly in line with my own play style, I don't generally speculate on night actions and will use the likely numbers to make projections about alignments, not a scumtell.

But he did speculate on the setup to make a case against me.

Considering your scum which is normally a fourth of the game, and a fourth of the game has died. That would currently make the scum a third of the game. So that’s you plus 2 if this game runs the average 3 scum set up, takes 5 to lynch..and 4 people had me pegged as scum. So in essence you’re attempting to convince one person with this terrible appeal to emotion. =)

Anyways, I ran a similar argument to Panz's as scum in a newbie game claiming cop so I won't be surprised if he flips scum, but I don't run dumb gambits so it's certainly plausible as something a pro-town player would do.

Yeah... you don't run gambits but you vote for Steph just because you state that he will be harder to catch if Panzer flips town? Great case on him. You really think that Panzer was pro-town with his actions?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Your points in 526 were mediocre.

I don't think they are worse than your case on Zach (a case that you called early on day 2 and you looked pretty convinced).
526 is not my whole case. It's a corolary given the last things Panz had said and his claim. My case is much bigger and sounder and a lot of people agree with it in general so I'm guessing it's not mediocre.

See, adding more mediocre points to a previously mediocre case doesn't much impress me. And I'm sure I'll get some grief if Panz does flip scum, but we could randomly lynch and occasionally hit scum, that doesn't mean the random lynch idea is a good one. Oh and why hello argumentum ad populum, how are you doing today. Hint: he's not doing so well because you're abusing the heck out of him.

But he did speculate on the setup to make a case against me.

Considering your scum which is normally a fourth of the game, and a fourth of the game has died. That would currently make the scum a third of the game. So that’s you plus 2 if this game runs the average 3 scum set up, takes 5 to lynch..and 4 people had me pegged as scum. So in essence you’re attempting to convince one person with this terrible appeal to emotion. =)

And...? There's a world of difference between wildly speculating about night actions and using the expected distribution of scum and town to make an argument.

Yeah... you don't run gambits but you vote for Steph just because you state that he will be harder to catch if Panzer flips town? Great case on him. You really think that Panzer was pro-town with his actions?

You do realize there's more reasons to vote for someone than just to get them lynched? Everyone was keen to explore the Panz side of the equation and ignore the Stephoscope side of things. Subsequently, the town will likely have that much less useful knowledge tomorrow then we could've.

[PJ.]

Note: Steph is most definite from her reaction to my claim.

Also, I was lying. I am Vanilla Townie. Alexhans is most likely scum.

I didn't like Lester's hammer but good riddance.

Scum team is Steph/Alex/ and Jazz or Lester.

I have a gut feeling on ryan but i try to ignore those for logic

Also, lynching any power role in a mini is bad and scummy play.

[alexhans]

If you are vanilla townie you really suck and should be removed from ICing.

Note: Steph is most definite from her reaction to my claim.

Why? HE (not she) wasn't watched by you so his reaction is logical. You were lying. Usually only scum lies.

To DDD I give this last post as my proof that you are REALLY ANTI-TOWN.

Also, lynching any power role in a mini is bad and scummy play.

You weren't a PR though.

Scum team is Steph/Alex/ and Jazz or Lester.

I have a gut feeling on ryan but i try to ignore those for logic

Not even now you try to help town and state your reasons.

This is why I wanted everyone to talk more instead of hammering.

[alexhans]

P.S Alex, you suck at mafia.

A vanilla townie that claims watcher told me I suck at mafia....

[Stephoscope]

Panzerjager better flip as scum. If he's town, he may have single-handedly won the game for the scum with his ridiculous play. I am not going to waste any more time on this until we find out one way or the other.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

To DDD I give this last post as my proof that you are REALLY ANTI-TOWN.

And I offer to the town this post as proof that you are REALLY ANTI-TOWN. Get back to me when you can actually argue my statements instead of making wacky and untrue blanket statements.

[alexhans]

So... Panzer lied and that is not anti town? I'm not accusing you dude... I'm just making a point there.

Why am I anti-town?

[alexhans]

I didn't say you were anti-town DDD... maybe that's what you understood, I guess I wasn't clear enough.

I was talking to Panzer directly. So where I said "you" I was talking about Panzer.

[LesterGroans]

I was suspicious for a while, Panzer didn't really seem to have much else to say besides "I'm Watcher". I could have hammered on Panzer a long time ago when he was L-1, but didn't. I really hope he's lying about being vanilla and flips scum, because if he didn't it really pisses me off ... I hat fakeclaims by supposedly town players.

I'm gonna wait for the flip before any further speculation.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

I didn't say you were anti-town DDD... maybe that's what you understood, I guess I wasn't clear enough.

I was talking to Panzer directly. So where I said "you" I was talking about Panzer.

Need to work on your pronoun usage then because if you direct a post/point at someone and then refer to "you" it means you're talking about the person whose attention you called to the post.

And you're suspiciously wrong on multiple accounts. First, you're trying to use information acquired after the action to justify the action. Second, I wouldn't disagree that if true Panz's actions have been anti-town. But you must have a short memory because on D1 we lynched a very anti-town player in Wall-E who flipped town. Eliminating anti-town townies does not help the town; our object is to eliminate scum, not anti-town players.

[alexhans]

Yeah. I need to be clearer. Sorry.

Yes... That's why I will regret very much if Panzer flips town. But I think my reasons for voting him were totally valid. His overall gameplay had been scummy (as I've stated in my case) and his watcher claim was really inconsistent with everything he had done earlier. On day 1 I stated all along that I wasn't convinced with his lynch, I don't have a short memory, stop attacking me every time if is not game related, it's annoying.

Also... Why you put the word "suspiciciously" before "wrong"? Subtle attacks are not helpful. You want to start laying a case for tomorrow? Then do it now. I'm not justifying the action with his new unexpected claim.
The way in wich you say first and second makes it appear like they're both signalling my being suspiciously wrong. But the second part is just you admitting that I may be right if Panzer flips town so I don't know why you word it like that.

[Zachrulez]

Panzerjager better flip as scum. If he's town, he may have single-handedly won the game for the scum with his ridiculous play. I am not going to waste any more time on this until we find out one way or the other.

I'm waiting for the flip.

Words can not describe Panzer's play if he's telling the truth about being vanilla.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

On day 1 I stated all along that I wasn't convinced with his lynch, I don't have a short memory, stop attacking me every time if is not game related, it's annoying.

Then if you remember that there's often a difference between anti-town and scum then either your points about Panz being anti-town are relatively meaningless or they show you're going after anti-town individuals and not necessarily scum. Which is great for looking town, but not actually being town.

Also... Why you put the word "suspiciciously" before "wrong"? Subtle attacks are not helpful. You want to start laying a case for tomorrow? Then do it now. I'm not justifying the action with his new unexpected claim.

They're suspiciously wrong because they're convenient opinions/stances for scum to take.

And I'm a touch annoyed with you that you keep trying to dictate my playstyle. Things like sarcasm and subtly are tools to make a point and I don't care for you trying to take those away from me.

The way in wich you say first and second makes it appear like they're both signalling my being suspiciously wrong. But the second part is just you admitting that I may be right if Panzer flips town so I don't know why you word it like that.

You accused Panz of being anti-town, true enough. Either you were stating the obvious, pointlessly or you thought you were making a point with that comment. Assuming you wouldn't just post to post the most logical reason is to reinforce your case and continue to try and sway me that your case was strong. However, not only is anti-town as a scumtell a weak point, given our D1 it's suspicious that any townie would use that to bolster their claims.

[Zachrulez]

Note: Steph is most definite from her reaction to my claim.

Also, I was lying. I am Vanilla Townie. Alexhans is most likely scum.

I didn't like Lester's hammer but good riddance.

Scum team is Steph/Alex/ and Jazz or Lester.

I have a gut feeling on ryan but i try to ignore those for logic

Also, lynching any power role in a mini is bad and scummy play.

Your point about lynching a power role being scummy fails hard when you consider the 2nd line of your post.

[PJ.]

To DDD I give this last post as my proof that you are REALLY ANTI-TOWN.

And I offer to the town this post as proof that you are REALLY ANTI-TOWN. Get back to me when you can actually argue my statements instead of making wacky and untrue blanket statements.

This is why I could careless about what I said or claimed. I felt this way about his entire case and people just went along with it.


This proves what I dislike about mafia. It's not a game of logic, it's about social engineering and who can be the loudest and sound like they know what they are doing(Ryan). Since Ryan was on my wagon, and with him being very articulate and willing to post large posts, I had no chance other then to either a) Put far more effort into the game which I don't find fun and wasn't motivated to do by alexhans ridiculousness or b) do something drastic.


To the not lynching a power role bit, You never lynch an uncounterclaimed power role straight out. Ever. Regardless. You can lynch me the next day when I'm actually lying, or see I have a point and actually listen.

Anyway, On to "steph's reaction wasn't scummy cause you were lying": This is ridiculous. Is steph gonna come out and say "yea you caught me"?
Do scum with watcher results on them say "ya I did it"? No. If anything flat denial is a nulltell. I'm learning towards scum due to the words used and the way it was said.

Please lynch either Alexhans or Steph next.

Also Alex, lynch goes to twilight not night so jazz can still answer your question...

[PJ.]

Panzerjager better flip as scum. If he's town, he may have single-handedly won the game for the scum with his ridiculous play. I am not going to waste any more time on this until we find out one way or the other.

I'm waiting for the flip.

Words can not describe Panzer's play if he's telling the truth about being vanilla.

It's called a gambit kind sir. And it works especially well when you are 100% sure that the person is scum.

[Zachrulez]

I'd hardly call lying about a claim when placed at lynch -1 that you can't back up with facts a gambit. At best, it was a very bad gambit.

[PJ.]

I'd hardly call lying about a claim when placed at lynch -1 that you can't back up with facts a gambit. At best, it was a very bad gambit.

My facts: Seph has been incredibly jumpy anytime she has been accused of anything.

She has been kinda go with the flowy, especially when it comes to me.

Has piggy backed a lot of everyone's points.

I'm good at catching scum.

oh and the "OMG PANZER WON THE GAME FOR SCUM!!!!" shouts of trying to act townie. key word act.