Newbie 744 -- Game Over!

[Yaw]

Vote Count:

Conspicuous_other (3): Kmd4390, knox, Raivann
knox (1): ZazieR
AshKetchummm (1): Conspicuous_other

Not Voting: alexhans, AshKetchummm

4 to lynch

[knox]

@Raivann
It seems ‘convenient’ that you decide to post you opinion on Zazie’s post now that I have voiced my suspicions, even though it had been days since the post and you posted in between without a comment to it.

hmmm who's piggybacking who here?

In regards to the piggybacking, there is only so much I can say, as coming into the game late, that is new about discussions I wasn’t present for. However you were around during the discussion so there is a difference to your piggybacking and mine. You had the chance to ask questions and add more to the ideas at the time and say more than just I agree. So no, I don’t think that is a fair comparison.

Is it scummy to agree with people?

I’m not saying its scummy to agree with people but it’s better for the town to investigate and ask questions which is more effective scum hunting rather than just watching, posting a few opinions and mainly agreeing while actively lurking in between.

I think your SoaD case is just as strong as my CntR case, for his not voting Cntr yesterday and for him not trying to defend himself.

How can you say that your CntR case is as strong as the SoaD one when you only have two points to why SoaD was scummy? Especially when you did a large posts on reasons why CntR was scummy.

I also have a question to Knox. In your list of suspicions, you accuse Raivann of following. Why did you only mention Raivann, and not Ash?
Would you say that SoaD was following? Please state your reasons with your answer to this question.

@Zazie (These are all bigger quotes so I gave a reference instead)
Why Raivann and not Ash?

Well at least in the last few pages I believe that Ash has asked more questions than Raivann who now says he has had nothing to say and was waiting for replacements which I think is a poor excuse considering the amount of discussion and posts sparking discussion that were generated during this time. During this time his post were generally actively lurking.

Also looking back Ash hasn’t followed to the same extent as Raivann, he first started a case, though not very strong, against Raivann instead of recycling what the group had already said. Though he later did jump on the CntR wagon and put him at L-1 and his reasons for doing so are suspect especially since he thought it was the hammer vote. Though this was the only time, at least he applied a bit of pressure on a quieter player at the time.
- This is page 6 & 7
Ash’s vote for Raivann is post – 137, p6 (a very long quote so didn’t use it)
Ash’s vote for CntR is post – 170, p7

However it’s pretty clear that prior to the last few days that they both were fairly even in their following. But for some reason when reading the game Raivann stuck out more, I guess it’s a hunch and sort of gut feeling I have about him so that’s why his following was mentioned and Ash’s wasn’t.

Would I say SoaD was following?

Yes I would say he was following at stages, though he did bring his own ideas to the table. Such as his thoughts about Mizz’s play and his opinion of Ash. Though he was prompted by Kmd he still expressed his own views.
- This is page 6
Views on Mizz and Ash is post – 133

Then was his crazy theory, though it was crazy it still had many original points and though wasn’t a very strong case it was still worth considering and showed that he was actively scum hunting and thinking for himself.
- This is page 7
SoaD’s crazy theory is post – 167

After that wasn’t much as he left soon after.
I have a bit to read on the discussion so may post more after this in response to them.

[ZazieR]

Zaz your attempt to defend CntR in 302 falls short.
While I agree that one meta isn't enough the other points lack strenght.

Then add your reasons why that is.
I also thought that you'd put your reasons why you'd like to lynch CntR in a post? When's that one coming?
Wait a minute! Do that in your next post. The only point you mentioned about his actions so far was his question if we should have waited for Blue's replacement.

Because Ash made only that mistake while CnrT made a whole lot more... Ash has a couple of things against him:
a) his inactivity
b) his hammer without explanations to get the game moving (almost the same scuminess as CnrT who left it at L-1 in the same manner)
c) his inactivity

^^Says the player who had his only serious vote against Ash on day 1, and FoSed at the start of day 2. And his hammer was way scummier than CntR's action. Besides, if that action was scummy to you, how come you didn't say that during day 1?

This is either lame or a joke I guess.

I was completely serious

Diving into real life is a hard endeavour... We can't know for sure. An excuse isn't needed until they call you out for something...

Does nobody get my point? He gave as excuse that he didn't mention Blue's actions due to his mother being sick. So why did he have time to write a 'crazy theory', which was probably a joke?

Regarding What Conspic said I agree that Ash looks scummy. I just find his newbieness a possibility and I'm not willing to lynch him. And less when he is being replaced. FoS: Conspic for trying to take heat from him and push a player that cannot respond.

322: mmm Ash is not here and you suddenly start making a case against him... I find this highly suspicious. You know he is being replaced right? Why lay the case now and not when he is here? You have the wish that he is quicklynched now perhaps?

This is a big stretch. Yaw mentioned that Ash was prodded, but when C_o and I wrote our posts against Ash, it wasn't known yet that he was getting replaced in another game. Besides, I already mentioned that I think Ash is scummy in other posts.

And what you called a stretch in your post, isn't one at all. Why would he warn me that it would give me scum points if C_o turns up scum when he hasn't done that before?

[Yaw]

Looking for a replacement for AshKetchummm.

[Raivann]

It seems ‘convenient’ that you decide to post you opinion on Zazie’s post now that I have voiced my suspicions, even though it had been days since the post and you posted in between without a comment to it.

I posted right after she asked my opinion. If I've been following or active lurking it's news to me. It seemed more like a arguement between Zazie and Kmd to me.

How can you say that your CntR case is as strong as the SoaD one when you only have two points to why SoaD was scummy? Especially when you did a large posts on reasons why CntR was scummy

Don't really understand your point here. I said Zazies case was as strong as my CntR case.

[ZazieR]

@Knox

Why Raivann and not Ash?

Well at least in the last few pages I believe that Ash has asked more questions than Raivann who now says he has had nothing to say and was waiting for replacements which I think is a poor excuse considering the amount of discussion and posts sparking discussion that were generated during this time. During this time his post were generally actively lurking.

Ok, after having looked back, I can see your point here. Raivann has posted some one-liners while other players were arguing and were making cases.
However, Alex was waiting till players would comment on his catch-up post, while there wasn't much to respond to. He also said that he'd write a post in which he'd give his points against CntR.
Ash at that time was giving his opinions, but didn't support anything with arguments. His top suspicion was still CntR after he responded to Kevin's points, and this was also stated, but I can't find any arguments why. He only said that a lot of CntR's reasonings don't make sense. The same thing can be said when he mentions my case against SoaD. Also, for someone who wants CntR lynched ever since his action of putting Ash at L-1, he hasn't pushed it much.

@Kevin: Due to Knox last post, I saw the Raivann case from Ash. It's based upon Raivann not having a stance. What's your reason for not giving a comment about this?

@Knox

Then was his crazy theory, though it was crazy it still had many original points and though wasn’t a very strong case it was still worth considering and showed that he was actively scum hunting and thinking for himself.

If you have paid attention, SoaD didn't vote for either me or CntR. So I asked him if he was actually convinced in his case:

Nah, it's just something that came to mind when re-reading the thread that I thought might be interesting to bring up. Food for thought really, hence why it's a crazy theory

When looking at SoaD's quote, do you think his case was real, and why do you think this?

[alexhans]

CnrT's case IMO.
First he Fosed SoaD for a stupid punctuation thing and when called on why no vote he voted SoaD. Basically obsequiousness is scummy.

Thought that she was mostly a lurker-ish (who could be putting up a newbie pose) player before she left, but at the moment, I feel that she might just be a confused townie.

I want to get this going somewhere, so...

Vote:AshKetchummm

Great Reasons for leaving Ash for the hammer... No, Not really.

I wished to put more pressure on Ash, and get more information...and I'm a very erratic person, really.

This explanation is not enough for me.

On a side note. Soad's crazy theory paired up Zaz and CnrT. After that Zaz started attacking SoaD... But, then again the theory of bussing scum team on day 1 is a bit ridiculous because scum usually prefer to let things flow in wrong directions. Not give town chances to find scummy attitudes.

Hmm...Blue is at Lynch-1 now...should we wait for him to post?

This speaks for itself. I've already said it.

I find Day 1 very boring when it lasts long, so I wanted to end it as soon as possible, so we can get on to more interesting discussions based on more solid evidence, rather than the straw catching of Day 1.

This may be either inexpirience or scummyness. It's the same dilemma I have with Ash. And the reason why Conspic (CnrT's) replacement votes for him:

He apologized? A person goes for two seperate hammers (the first one being only two posts after another vote, might I add), kills a guy without giving him a chance to respond, and you let him get away with an apology?

Anyway, I gotta say that this point makes Ash looks far scummier than CntR but as he registered 27 nov 2008 and Ash 27 Feb 2009 I tend to think about Ash as much more newb.

Yes. I'm pretty arrogant in a way because I don't ussually consider myself as newb while playing. Later I discover that I made some stupid avoidable mistakes, but I'm learning fast.

Do I think CnrT/Conspic merits a vote right now? I'm guessing no. There's still a lot of things to discuss and I'm not convinced that he is probably scum. I need to strongly suspect I'm right to lynch someone.

This game is the first one in wich I have really feel absolutely lost. I have to admit to myself that I haven't looked much at some characters that I assumed town and forgot about them (KMD and Raivann) and I had some suspicions regarding Zaz. SoaD was neutral read. regarding Ash I thought him as newb townie. And CnrT looked scummy. So what I'm saying is that I haven't been flexible and made a really good analysis of the game so far. I have to free my mind...

Blue is clean. I'm 100% sure about this. Cntr is scummy, we've already been over this, no need to beat a dead horse. Ash at first seemed really scummy, and of course mizz mafia's play didnt really help his case much either, but the more he plays, the townier he seems. *shrug*

This was pointed out by Zaz in response to my question... I don't know what to make of it.

ZazieR, you are very critical(a good thing), and often your posts seem helpful. However, something about you seems fishy.

This is the feeling I have right now. Useless gut.

I think your SoaD case is just as strong as my CntR case, for his not voting Cntr yesterday and for him not trying to defend himself.

How can you say that your CntR case is as strong as the SoaD one when you only have two points to why SoaD was scummy? Especially when you did a large posts on reasons why CntR was scummy.

QFT. Really.

^^Says the player who had his only serious vote against Ash on day 1, and FoSed at the start of day 2. And his hammer was way scummier than CntR's action. Besides, if that action was scummy to you, how come you didn't say that during day 1?

Mine was an intended pressure vote to get a reaction and the game going... and to see who would follow the bandwaggon... Unluckily i was absent to react quickly. Luckyly Ash was not quick lynched.

As I've said in this post. I agree with Ash being scummier than CnrT regarding that action. I also stated why I felt it wasn't necessarily scummy (newbiness).

Does nobody get my point? He gave as excuse that he didn't mention Blue's actions due to his mother being sick. So why did he have time to write a 'crazy theory', which was probably a joke?

I will be reviewing this.

This is a big stretch. Yaw mentioned that Ash was prodded, but when C_o and I wrote our posts against Ash, it wasn't known yet that he was getting replaced in another game.

True. I realized that later.
------

FoS for calling out your defense? That's OMGUS and we aren't even in the RVS

I'll respond to the rest of your posts later on Kevin, but now that the game's over, I can talk about my FoS against you.
Open 121
I 'defended' Hewitt in this game and attacked somebody else.
In newbie 696, I also didn't support the Raider wagon, and I gave my reasons for that at the start of the game. At the same time, I was attacking Stef and Raz.
Both games show what's happening here as well. You attack a player, I disagree and give reasons why, and add my own suspicions. But in both games, you never stated that it would give me scumpoints. So why's that suddenly the case in this game?

And what you called a stretch in your post, isn't one at all. Why would he warn me that it would give me scum points if C_o turns up scum when he hasn't done that before?

Where in hell does it say that if C_o turns scum it'll give you scumpoints? He called out on you because you Fosed him for Attacking CnrT (and laying a pretty decent case) and not accepting your defense. And you suddenly say that it doesn't give you scumpoints if C_o Flips scum because of this game and that game, etc, etc. Basically. You jumped for nothing

However, Alex was waiting till players would comment on his catch-up post, while there wasn't much to respond to. He also said that he'd write a post in which he'd give his points against CntR.

Subtle attacks annoy me. It's true that there is only one request there (to Raivann, quote the case against CnrT, wich he didn't do). Raiv voted Cnrt in this post but didn't lay a case himself. I find that strange.


If you're wondering why the long post... I finally have working Internet at home!

[knox]

@Raivann

I posted right after she asked my opinion. If I've been following or active lurking it's news to me. It seemed more like a arguement between Zazie and Kmd to me.

Active lurking is posting one liners and things without real relevance to the game. If you truly believe that you haven’t been doing it what would you call: posting lyrics, talking about Zazie’s signature, talking about avatars getting together and asking if CntR is getting replaced all without any in game content in the same post when there has been stuff to talk about at the time. Those are a few of them.

Regarding Zazie’s post I did miss the part where she asked you to comment. However you should probably have given your opinion earlier without being prompted seeing as that was the biggest discussion with new views to be considered in a fair amount of time. So to me, considering you said you had nothing to say earlier to me seems suspicious.

Don't really understand your point here. I said Zazies case was as strong as my CntR case.

However you did sum up her case in two points or what out of her case you believed in. So how can you say that they are as strong if that is your opinion when you have mentioned several points on the CntR case?

@Zazie

If you have paid attention, SoaD didn't vote for either me or CntR. So I asked him if he was actually convinced in his case:

Nah, it's just something that came to mind when re-reading the thread that I thought might be interesting to bring up. Food for thought really, hence why it's a crazy theory

When looking at SoaD's quote, do you think his case was real, and why do you think this?

Yes I have paid attention and I do realise he didn’t vote for either of you at the time. Though his quote has a smiley, it still says its food for thought and that he agrees it is not the most solid theory. I think he might have brought it up in a joking way so as not to get shut down completely after posting it. To me it seems as though he believes in what he is saying otherwise why go to the effort of quoting and writing a long post including questions at the bottom? Looking at it, I believe it was a small suspicion and he just wanted to see what others thought about it and he just brought it up in a joking way as a possible defense.

[ZazieR]

@Alex

On a side note. Soad's crazy theory paired up Zaz and CnrT. After that Zaz started attacking SoaD...

Incorrect. It made me wonder if he actually believed 'his case'. I started attacking him after he posted his opinion of Blue.

Also, I hope you realize if CnT flips scum, you get scum points for defending him like this.

Here, Kevin says that it will give me scumpoints. In the games I've pointed out, I also came up for the player Kevin attacked. But in both games, Kevin didn't mention at all that it would give me scumpoints. So why would he say that in this game, but not in the other games?
And it doesn't have anything to do with me getting scumpoints from Kevin if C_o turns up scum. If I disagree with a case, I'll state my reasons why. Have always done so, and this will not change. Kevin should know this by now. So to me, it's strange that Kevin 'warns' me.

regarding Ash I thought him as newb townie.

Since when do you think this?

However, Alex was waiting till players would comment on his catch-up post, while there wasn't much to respond to. He also said that he'd write a post in which he'd give his points against CntR.

Subtle attacks annoy me. It's true that there is only one request there (to Raivann, quote the case against CnrT, wich he didn't do). Raiv voted Cnrt in this post but didn't lay a case himself. I find that strange.

If you think that I'm attacking you with this, you're wrong. It was used for a question to knox.

If you're wondering why the long post... I finally have working Internet at home!

Great to hear that How long did you have to do without internet at your home?

[ZazieR]

Also Alex, you said that you had notes regarding my case against SoaD. Have you posted these already or not?

[ZazieR]

@Zazie

If you have paid attention, SoaD didn't vote for either me or CntR. So I asked him if he was actually convinced in his case:

Nah, it's just something that came to mind when re-reading the thread that I thought might be interesting to bring up. Food for thought really, hence why it's a crazy theory

When looking at SoaD's quote, do you think his case was real, and why do you think this?

Yes I have paid attention and I do realise he didn’t vote for either of you at the time. Though his quote has a smiley, it still says its food for thought and that he agrees it is not the most solid theory. I think he might have brought it up in a joking way so as not to get shut down completely after posting it. To me it seems as though he believes in what he is saying otherwise why go to the effort of quoting and writing a long post including questions at the bottom? Looking at it, I believe it was a small suspicion and he just wanted to see what others thought about it and he just brought it up in a joking way as a possible defense.

Then please explain why he did vote CntR at the start of day 2. (I know you can't)
He stated suspicion of CntR during day 1. He even made 'a case' against CntR. But he never voted CntR, for reasons unknown. This is especially notable when a player he hasn't even mentioned gets closer to a lynch, and he doesn't even try to get his top suspicion lynched. And yeah, there was his mother. But why wouldn't he bother to put his top suspicion at L-1 yesterday, while doing it today?

[Yaw]

charter replaces AshKetchummm.

[charter]

/confirm

unvote

Hello friends. Reading now.

[Kmd4390]

@Kevin: Due to Knox last post, I saw the Raivann case from Ash. It's based upon Raivann not having a stance. What's your reason for not giving a comment about this?

Can you quote it? I'm not completely sure what you are talking about, but I probably just didn't see a reason to respond to it.

Here, Kevin says that it will give me scumpoints. In the games I've pointed out, I also came up for the player Kevin attacked. But in both games, Kevin didn't mention at all that it would give me scumpoints. So why would he say that in this game, but not in the other games?

Because in this game you went out of your way to respond point-by-point like you would if it was you I was attacking. I find it suspicious that you can be sure enough of a player's towniness to respond in the way you did. Defending a player is one thing. Responding to every point in the case against a player to deflect the case is another.

And it doesn't have anything to do with me getting scumpoints from Kevin if C_o turns up scum. If I disagree with a case, I'll state my reasons why. Have always done so, and this will not change. Kevin should know this by now. So to me, it's strange that Kevin 'warns' me.

I've seen you assertively call a player town (hewitt in Open 121), but I can't remember you ever going point by point like this.

/confirm

unvote

Hello friends. Reading now.

Oh, it's a party now!

Too bad claiming scum is probably not a good idea in a newbie game. We could have fun with that.

[charter]

Ok, I have figured a few things out.

vote ZazieR

Pretty sure this is a good place for a vote.
Pretty sure CntRational is town.

FOS syndromeofadown for 87.

You guys lynched syndromeofadown for 95, right?

Need to go back and check Raivann's initial reason for his vote.

129, why do people do this to me?

I'm at the top of page seven. Maybe more tonight, maybe not.

[alexhans]

what do you mean with "You guys lynched syndromeofadown for 95, right?"?

Don't you think that it would be wiser to vote after you have read everything so you can post a decent case and ask some decent questions instead of that fast sentences?

[Kmd4390]

vote ZazieR

Pretty sure this is a good place for a vote.
Pretty sure CntRational is town.

You're gonna have to explain this. I only see Zazie as scum if CnT is scum.

You guys lynched syndromeofadown for 95, right?

SoaD was replaced by knox, who is still alive.

[charter]

151 and 152 throw a wrench in the game.

Thats ok, 160 by Raivann clears things up. He basically votes CntRational because CntRational voted Ash for the same reasons as Raivann. Coupled with his blatent leaving the wagon when it's losing steam, and I think he may be scum.

161- Ok, one of blueshadow and Raivann is scum. Figuring out which one will be the tough part.

167- I agree that this is crazy.

Oh boy, just checked who was lynched day one, it was blueshadow...

181- kmd, what? I've never seen you pull something like that as town before.

Top of page nine now. Currently leaning kmd/Raivann/ZazieR as my top suspects.

[charter]

254- This looks important, but it's late and I didn't read it. Will come back to it later and see what I think.

264- Same deal.

I really skimmed the last two or so pages.

I definately need to reread again... Sorry, not normally this indecisive, but I'm keeping my ZazieR vote for the time being.

[Kmd4390]

181- kmd, what? I've never seen you pull something like that as town before.

Pull what, exactly? I don't even see anything out of the ordinary in that post.

[alexhans]

I haven't made myself time to read charter's posts and investigate what he is talking about... But please charter... If you can... Link the numbers or quote the phrases or at least state what the F%&/ are you talking about....

right now I only see:
post x is weird.
y I agree
z Oh It's incredible John doe did this...
a This is lame....

See my point? if you make no questions and only comment without explaining is practically useless.

I still gotta look at some things like:

Incorrect. It made me wonder if he actually believed 'his case'. I started attacking him after he posted his opinion of Blue.

@Zaz: I think about ash as a newb townie pretty much since he replaced and I saw his join date and his playstyle. All that about not reading his role when replacing and saying Mizz was scummy was silly for an experienced player to do IMHO. Anyway, as I didn't want to be fooled by a scum newb I decided to put a quick vote on Ash and see if someone tried to defend him or if he reacted oddly but then I had my accident and everything changed.

If you think that I'm attacking you with this, you're wrong. It was used for a question to knox.

Yeah, but along the lines of you saying that there was nothing to answer in my post you make me look like I'm stalling the game.

I had my accident on march 2. A week later I went to my mother house (with internet) till my birthday when I moved back to my house (My father's) and had no internet till this weekend. (20 days aprox).
Now don't accuse me just because I put my mother in the game

Also Alex, you said that you had notes regarding my case against SoaD. Have you posted these already or not?

I think you mean this

NOTE: I want to hear a response first from SoaD before someone may discuss this post. And I'd prefer it if Ash could respond afterwards, but this isn't obligatory.

Noted... Witholding in my notes a little commentary I had.

I really don't remember what it was... I recall writing some little comments and posting them in my notes (On my user notes) but then I deleted them along accidently along with some huge notes for an ongoing game on a boat.
I posted what I found weird about SoaD. I didn't see much things that tinged my scumdar... I still have to review what you say about his mother and all that. I need a re-read.

[ZazieR]

So Charter, anything you want to add about your opinions?

[ZazieR]

Because in this game you went out of your way to respond point-by-point like you would if it was you I was attacking. I find it suspicious that you can be sure enough of a player's towniness to respond in the way you did. Defending a player is one thing. Responding to every point in the case against a player to deflect the case is another.

Have done so before (NG 684). Then, in my opinion, there were both against Raider and hewitt one point mentioned. No wonder that I didn't reply point by point.
There's also the thing that the player replaced out. I believe C_o is town, so I'm not gonna let him get lynched that easily.

Ash's case

[ZazieR]

@Alex

@Zaz: I think about ash as a newb townie pretty much since he replaced and I saw his join date and his playstyle. All that about not reading his role when replacing and saying Mizz was scummy was silly for an experienced player to do IMHO. Anyway, as I didn't want to be fooled by a scum newb I decided to put a quick vote on Ash and see if someone tried to defend him or if he reacted oddly but then I had my accident and everything changed.

What about your FoS against Ash at the start of day 2 (not sure if you already said about that. Sorry if you did)

And it was not my intention to give you the impression that I think you're stalling the game, as this is not true.

[ZazieR]

Ok, Charter. Now I'm really curious why your vote as you only mentioned one of my posts, which wasn't even discussed by you in the post with your vote.
And how come you say C_o is town, when you hadn't even seen CntR's actions yet at that point?

And if you're so certain that one of blue and Raivann is scum, then why no vote against Raivann?