Having said that, I acknowledge that the current F&Es are all mafia wins. But I'd still only bump x to 7 for 3:3 right now. Hmm--would a 3:4:5 setup work?
In other news, there need to be more games with daymasons.
(2:2:3 with daymasons would be a great newbie format, but now I'm plugging a setup I've already posted. Self-interested.)
As I move my vote
Towards your wagon, town is taking note
It fills my head up and gets louder and
I believe Friends and Enemies' original conception was something about forcing the scum to identify masons or they would get their asses endgamed. While I'm all for 2:2 versions, I don't think the larger versions with fewer masons capture that well.
what I was working on. it doesn't handle mason confirmation well at all, and the part in bold "2:2:7:Day 1 random lynch:2/11: 18%: mason claim:
if scum do not counter goto 2:1:7
" is also false.
~~~
I don't like the EV approach either Ether. I thought it was what we were using though.
I would like to try 3:4:4 and see what happens. I think it is breakable for town (I will not be playing in it) but I don't know if the current level of play in Open games is high enough to break it.
I want consensus answers to the following questions:
1. Are we depending upon EV based analysis? Does EV trump experience and intuition?
2. What is the target range of acceptable win percentages for 1 scum faction vs town?
1. I think they're useful for games with more than one anti-town faction. Outside of that, no.
2. (30-30-40%? Meh. I hate multifaction games.) I'm assuming you're asking about EVs, not data from previous games. Most of the setups I wind up supporting seem to be around 25-35%, but like I said, I don't think EVs are a good measure of balance.
As I move my vote
Towards your wagon, town is taking note
It fills my head up and gets louder and
Ether wrote:Having said that, I acknowledge that the current F&Es are all mafia wins. But I'd still only bump x to 7 for 3:3 right now. Hmm--would a 3:4:5 setup work?
Thesp's original setup was a closed setup 3:4:5 day start. Scum won, but took advantage of a fake cop claim to do it.
IMHO, scum would have won even if the cop claim had failed, but I can't really prove that. Scum did manage to kill masons nights 1-3, where by scum I mean me.
I replaced into Chess Mafia for 6 months, and all I got was a win and this lousy sig.
EVs for anythng beyond Vanilla variants and very small setups, I am certainly not of the opinion that EV should be our only (or even primary) concern. I'm hoping to make some progress on that (though not in the immediate future; I've got to be thinking about preparing for my exam and looking for a job right now), but in the meantime, make use of whatever works for you... setups can always be tweaked later.
That said: The EV is a minimum expectation - the town has a strategy which guarantees the EV. However, I think we all agree that on average the town will do somewhat better (in most setups, anyway)... and that's why we don't have dice being used in all our games. But because towns don't use dice, skilled scum will win more often than the EV would indicate (while poor scum drag the "average" back down to put it in the town's favor, overall) - EV isn't a limit on what the scum can acheive, unless the setup is such that the town can't improve on random voting (in which case it's a bad/broken setup).
ortolan wrote:Anyhow I'm gonna post, if it's a repeat then sue me:
I have an idea for a setup spurred by discussion of lovers which is so simple/obvious I'm sure it's been used/discussed extensively before but I'm unsure how to search for previous setups. Anyhow, in case it hasn't:
Alternating: I actually would like to test this one in action, and it's not really that harsh on town, barring the fact that the cop as even has to survive until N2 to get an investigation in. I think if the cop was odd and the doc was even it'd be much more reasonable.
Jungle Republic is a bit confusing on first glance. I'll give it more thought later.
Last edited by Korts on Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:02 am, edited 2 times in total.
I think I remember saying that if it's X targets A and B and Y targets B and C it'll be A and C that swap places.
@ Korts: Percentages are independent of each other. So therefore there is a chance that a mafia bus driver is useless (12.5%), it is basically just a mafia framer/anti-framer
I like Jungle Republic, I personally feel that because of its asymmetry I believe that it allows a more interesting look at the game, and means that nobody can ever be truly confirmed (except the seer).
I dislike alternating C9, and it isn't C9, it has no uncertainty about the set-up
Max wrote:I dislike alternating C9, and it isn't C9, it has no uncertainty about the set-up
Alternating 9P then. What are the actual problems with it? It gives town at least one investigation and one protection, without the cop-doc breakage, and I wouldn't consider town weak in this setup, either.
Jungle Rep seems okay, I'd
certify
.
I'd rather
kill wheels
because the bus driver resolution may be confusing for the first time mods who are in the open queue.
Regarding Friends and Enemies, we should consider the variations.
because the bus driver resolution may be confusing for the first time mods who are in the open queue.
I know I'm not a member of the group, but I agree here. One Bus Driver might be an allowable weirdness, but two increases the chances of screwing up night action resolution immensely, and I don't think it adds sufficiently to the game to warrant that in an Open Queue setup. Someone's personally designed-and-run game would be different, whether it was Open or not...
