Mini 771 - Mafia in Ludd: Game Over

[camn]

camn, what are your thoughts regarding charter's play?

Is this some inside joke that I don't know about?

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Page 22 Votecount

camn (0/7):
charter (0/7):
DizzyIzzyB13 (0/7):
Ether (0/7):
Green Crayons (0/7):
Incognito (0/7):
Korts (3/7): Incognito, Patrick, DizzyIzzyB13
OhGodMyLife (0/7):
Patrick (1/7): Xdaamno
skitzer (0/7):
Xdaamno (4/7): Green Crayons, Korts, camn, Yosarian2
Yosarian2 (3/7): OhGodMyLife, charter, Ether

Not voting (3/12):

skitzer,

With 12 alive, it's 7 to lynch.

Countdown To Deadline
============================

[Korts]

I think self-hammering is generally an action that I'd think is more likely to come from scum players than town players but in my experience, I can't recall a single instance where a player who self-voted closer to L-1 happened to be a scum player. You're completely welcome to provide me with examples that display otherwise.

Actually I put myself at L-1 as scum in a run of Bird C9 just to see what would happen--I didn't expect to be hammered on second page though. The fact that it was a pretty stupid gambit in itself does not invalidate the argument that self-voting in general can be an appeal to emotion.

I'm uncomfortable about camn's vote; she hasn't expressed any particular suspicion on Xdaamno, and jumped on the wagon with a simple "hm". Hm what?

[camn]

GC's case was compelling.

[Incognito]

Korts, your self-vote was a completely different situation. You placed yourself at L-1 on page 1 and had absolutely nothing to be frustrated or emotional about -- like you said, it was a gambit. Comparing that self-vote to one that is more "appeal to emotion"-al is like comparing Bentley's to Daewoo's.

[Xdaamno]

I disagree. I looked up previous discussion on self-voting (to see general MS thoughts on the matter) and I think this is an obvious emotional ploy, per Seol: "...the appeal to emotion self-vote which should always, always lead to lynch (ie, the correct approach to an appeal to emotion is to deny)." The fact that he's acting super wounded that I'm calling him scum (which, as a defense, makes absolutely no sense) coupled with the self-vote, he looks like a scumbag trying out a pity plea.

Well then I'd feel really bad for poor alphachick, poor Iceforge, poor lordofthelefthand, poor Xtoxm (sorry Xtoxm x_x), poor krazyness, and even poor Incognito (yeah, I was still learning the ropes to this game, heh) if we ever ended up in a game with Seol. We'd have all been toast, and we'd have all been dead, decaying townies.

An incredibly recent game comes to mind about a scumbag showing really awesome frustration that looked really town and convinced the town to not lynch the guy because, in part, he was town-looking with that frustration. Being frustrated isn't a town tell by any stretch of the imagination.

If you're talking about the game I telepathically,

psychically

predict you're talking about, I'd love to make comment here but...

@Xdaamno:

no matter what happens, I think you owe it to everyone to produce that long analysis you mentioned above. A number of us have been asking for

something

of that sort for quite some time now.

Yep, I promise.

[Green Crayons]

camn: You started this game off with an incredibly bold statement: That charter appears to be scummy no matter what his alignment truly is in any game. Recently, two things have occurred: A) you have diminished your suspicions of charter and B) two town-leaning players (OGML and Patrick) have voiced ever-increasing suspicions of charter. Considering this, I would like your thoughts on a few things. 1) Why are your suspicions of charter diminishing? 2) What do you make of OGML/Patrick's suspicions of charter? 3) Do you think the fact that charter always looks scummy (according to your earlier testimony) may have any affect on your/OGML/Patrick's perception of charter? If so, how?


X: So, using the word "crap" and expressing distaste for another player's logic is all it takes to be labeled an asshole these days? Please. Your incredibly melodramatic turn is looking like an incredible farce.


Incog: Each of those examples displays a newbie making a mistake in judgment because they don't know any better. The only example you gave that wasn't a player new to the game of mafia when they self-voted was Xtox, but Xtox is his own little unique snowflake of craziness. I also think he has a history of goading the town into lynching him (with or without self-voting), so I don't know how great of a case study he is for people at large. Xtox notwithstanding, each of the other cases are great examples of new players given a town role and unsure of how to deal with pressure. They made a (very understandable) newbie mistake because they were learning the ropes of the game.

Xdaamno isn't doing that here. You're comparing apples and organes (Bentley's and Daewoo's). Xdaamno isn't a newbie. I find it incredibly difficult to think he doesn't darn well know not to fall into the self-voting trap - especially considering the large amount of emotional appeal padding (something I didn't see present while skimming those examples, by the way).


And, yes. I am referring to that game. I have a feeling I know what you want to say (and it looks like in 24 hours we should be able to discuss this more freely), but I just want to reiterate my not-related-specifically-to-a-single-game point: That "frustration," generally, is something that can be used and displayed by anyone. With any role. With any alignment. And in any number of ways.

[Xdaamno]

X: So, using the word "crap" and expressing distaste for another player's logic is all it takes to be labeled an asshole these days? Please. Your incredibly melodramatic turn is looking like an incredible farce.

Haha... this is, what, the 5th time I've asked you to stop being dishonest?

[Green Crayons]

Holy crap. Which just goes to show your understanding of the meaning and application of the word is incredibly off base.


There. There's a personal "attack." I'm criticizing your personal lack of ability to understand and use basic concepts of language. I'm saying you're mentally deficient in this regard. Hell, if I'm going to be accused of lobbing personal attacks, I might as well put a few in so you're not completely pulling that accusation out of your butt. Feel free to spread e-tears all over the place over that one. The irony is that your continual labeling of my non-dishonest actions as dishonest is actually dishonest in and of itself.

I actually don't even see how in the world you're coming to the conclusion that these things are dishonest other than the fact that you don't agree with them. That's bullshit. Whoops - I've upgraded from "crap," looks like I should get the title Mr. Asshole so everyone should beware of my crazy mean streak! Just because opinions differ from your own doesn't make them dishonest, and it's really irking me that you're sitting there on your butt screaming bloody murder about dishonesty when I've 1) said what my opinions are and then 2) shown actual in-game evidence as to why I came to those conclusions. What's your retort? Squeeze your eyes shut tight, plug your ears up and just yell repeatedly: "Meanie! Insulting! Asshole! Unfair! Liar! Dishonest!" You don't explain why, you just keep shouting - apparently oblivious to giving specifications. And then you turn around and call me out for taking things too seriously?

So, I will ask again: Are you serious? It's

insulting

infuriating on a personal level and it's scummy in terms of gameplay.

[Xdaamno]

OK, fair enough, I went over the top. However, insulting someone when they've made a logic-based argument and getting angry at someone's dishonest play after they have done it repeatedly are different things.

My problem was that not only did you miss out the more significant insult, you tried to pass off 'expressing distaste for dishonest arguments' as "expressing distate for another player's logic".

[Yosarian2]

Yos' slimy addition to the bandwagon here is especially concerning.

So...me joining a wagon on someone who's been high on my suspect list all day, who I've been strongly suspicious of basically since the very beginning of the game, and who has still constantly refused to do any actual scumhunting, is "slimy"?

Right, right; OGML dosn't actually care about logic this game, he's just trying to get me lynched in every single post of his no matter what I do or don't do or what else happens in the game, I keep forgetting that.

Xdaamno: your self vote is not going to help you here; in fact, the odds of me unvoting you while you are still voting for yourself are pretty much nil. You getting angry at GC isn't really going to help you either. Now, that full analysis post you are promising, with a discription of who you are suspicious of and why, and who you think is town and why, would be a big help. Or, if you can, a calm, rational defense against the case GC made agaisnt you would probably help as well; preferably by actually explaining why the points against you are wrong, instead of just quoting everything he said and blandly claiming that they're all lies.

But first we need to see that analysis, or that scumhunting you promised earlier; need to hear more about what you think about other people in the game.

[OhGodMyLife]

So...me joining a wagon on someone who's been high on my suspect list all day, who I've been strongly suspicious of basically since the very beginning of the game, and who has still constantly refused to do any actual scumhunting, is "slimy"?

Right, right; OGML dosn't actually care about logic this game, he's just trying to get me lynched in every single post of his no matter what I do or don't do or what else happens in the game, I keep forgetting that.

Yeah. Your so-called suspicions of Xdaamno have never been anything more than gut, and you've mentioned them nigh constantly without ever actually doing anything about it until suddenly there was a serious wagon to join. Joy of joys! Throwing down a "35-40% chance" of him being scum based on bad feelings does not constitute a case.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah. Your so-called suspicions of Xdaamno have never been anything more than gut

That is a completly false statement. But thanks for playing.

[camn]

camn: You started this game off with an incredibly bold statement: That charter appears to be scummy no matter what his alignment truly is in any game.

Not precisely. I said he is scummy AS TOWN. I can't recall ever playing with him as scum.... but the JOKE of it was that I wouldn't be able to tell.

Recently, two things have occurred: A) you have diminished your suspicions of charter

I was never particularly suspicious. It was truly a RVS vote.

and B) two town-leaning players (OGML and Patrick) have voiced ever-increasing suspicions of charter. Considering this, I would like your thoughts on a few things. 1) Why are your suspicions of charter diminishing?

See above

2) What do you make of OGML/Patrick's suspicions of charter?

Well founded. AS said, charter plays scummy, in my experience. It would not be surprising for people to think he is scum.

3) Do you think the fact that charter always looks scummy (according to your earlier testimony) may have any affect on your/OGML/Patrick's perception of charter? If so, how?

Absolutely! I think it would be NO SURPRISE if charter got lynched, and flipped town.
THAT SAID, I would still be willing to lynch him if he was very scummy.

IN THIS GAME.... as I said last time someone hounded me about charter, he has not been making a big impression on me. I have a relatively neutral read on him.
Maybe his post volume is down.. but I attribute this to me DESPERATELY trying to keep up with the Epic Battles between Titans of Mafia. (EBbToM)

Now, I don't mind the EBbToM. I am enjoying it. I am leaning things. Someone said I shouldn't be so self-depreciating, but it is truly my feeling that I am in over my head today. But I am generally weak Day 1, and school has proved a little busier than I would like.
HOWEVER, I have a lot of confidence, however, that I will have more to contribute in the coming days, when there are fewer players, and more info, and maybe less EBbToM.

ASK ME ABOUT CHARTER THEN!

No more asking me about charter today!


Don't think I am not seeing a pattern here...:

camn, how do you feel about charter now?

Camn, do you find Charter scummy? (Heh.)

camn, what are your thoughts regarding charter's play?

[camn]

So, I took a quick read on charter....

He's lurking.
Lying low.
IIoA.
Hiding Out.
Taking cover.

His actual posts are less scummy than I am used to.
Which translates to less bold.
Less confident.

Less Town.

Thus, Charter is on my list. Ether is off.

My list:

Charter
skitzer
Xdaamno

God. Looking at it on screen.. it seems like an unlikely set of scum.
Hm.

[charter]

To go from a couple to nine in the span of 14 hours is not semantics. It's an incredibly glaring misrepresentation at one point or the other.

Ok... what I'm getting at is why is this suspicious at all?

My list of suspects is now: Izzy, charter, Xdaamno based on the above.

So you think I'm trying to bus Izzy then?

Having said that, I should note that I probably wouldn't be completely averse to his lynch if the consensus believes he should be today's lynch. Right now, Korts is looking much scummier to me though.

FOS. Seems like you're trying to encourage Xdaamos lynch without getting your hands dirty.

I see that my vote is still on Yos, I thought I switched it back to Dizzy.

unvote, vote DizzyIzzy

GC in 506- From my experience, the conclusions you drew is how Xdaamo plays. I've never seen him really care about a game.

508- Ha, if you'd said, well, Xdaamo is a better lynch than me (arguable because I doubt Xdaamo can claim a role worse than miller) I'd have bought it, but this just makes me more suspicious of Yos.

509- Xdaamo is being a retard. "Don't hammer until I say so, but I'm going to put myself at L-1!". I'm unsure if Xdaamo as scum would do something this idiotic.

Xdaamno's self-vote makes me feel even more than ever that he's likely town. I do not support this wagon.

FOS. If him self voting enforces your belief that he is town, then I think you must be scum trying to gain town cred when Xdaamo flips town. There's absolutely no reason why a self vote should get you town cred. I think I've just convinced myself I think it more likely that Xdaamo is trying to gain sympathy.

I can't recall a single instance where a player who self-voted closer to L-1 happened to be a scum player.

That's odd, this happened in this game where the SK put himself at L-1 early in day one and won the game.

It seems like he just jumped on the Yos wagon when it was becoming popular and then came off when people starting analysing it more thoroughly and asking for reasons;

Where did anyone attack my reasons for voting Yos? I'd still lynch him in a heartbeat if he gets to six votes.

I add Incog to my list of Dizzy and Yos to give you the scumteam.

[Yosarian2]

508- Ha, if you'd said, well, Xdaamo is a better lynch than me (arguable because I doubt Xdaamo can claim a role worse than miller) I'd have bought it, but this just makes me more suspicious of Yos.

...what?

This argument didn't make any sense when OGML made it, and it makes a hell of a lot less sense now that you're echoing it. I've been attacking Xdaamno all game, for good reason, and people are acting all surprised that I was willing to join a wagon on him? Are people really still under the illusion that there's something wrong with wagoning with good reason on day 1?

You know, I'm starting to see why everyone thinks Charter is scum. He's being incredibly oppertunistic here, as he has been for much of the game.

I do have to laugh at camn saying "charter looks less scummy then usual, so he's probably scum."

[OhGodMyLife]

I have yet to see an example of scum self-voting given that wasn't an obv-gambit in retrospect (Korts example of his own self-vote, charter's example of occam's self-vote), rather than someone appearing frustrated with the gamestate. All of the frustration self-vote examples have been from town.

[camn]

I self-voted out of frustration as scum when I was new.

That is when I earned my sig.
Rishi thought exactly what you just said. . .

[Ether]

Charter's on, like...

everyone's

peripherals. It's creepy.

Having said that, I'm going to shamelessly hop multiple bandwagons at once with an

unvote; vote: Korts

.

I'd already unvoted in 387, but that's okay.

(I want Camn to link to the game she cited, but I won't support an Xdaamnolynch outside of deadline circumstances.)

[Korts]

So you think I'm trying to bus Izzy then?

Those are individual suspicions, and I have not said that all of you have to be scum. The fact that you immediately try to knock yourself off my list with this question is suspicious--I don't see why you couldn't be bussing, anyway.

Ether, are you willing to make your reasons for voting me public?

[camn]

(I want Camn to link to the game she cited, but I won't support an Xdaamnolynch outside of deadline circumstances.)

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 62#1133762

[Xdaamno]

Limited access until around Wednesday 22nd, but should still be able to post occasionally.

(No change, then! )

[Incognito]

Having said that, I should note that I probably wouldn't be completely averse to his lynch if the consensus believes he should be today's lynch. Right now, Korts is looking much scummier to me though.

FOS. Seems like you're trying to encourage Xdaamos lynch without getting your hands dirty.

Errrr... my intention there should be clear: I believe a Korts-lynch is more likely to hit scum than an Xdaamno-lynch, but I

believed

that Xdaamno had been behaving in such a way that I could have easily seen myself lending my vote to his wagon if people preferred his lynch instead. Given the new information that I received from Xdaamno's self-vote though, I've obviously revised this position and wouldn't support his lynch today at all, but I can't see how you could interpret that as me lending support to his lynch without getting my hands dirty -- I'd have placed my vote on his wagon, and I've been busy questioning him about a lot of his actions all day, which means that if he were lynched and did happen to flip town, I'd be at blame just like anyone else who might have ended up on his wagon.

Further, the only way I could possibly get "my hands dirty" is if Xdaamno is indeed town. Do you

know

him to be town here?

Xdaamno's self-vote makes me feel even more than ever that he's likely town. I do not support this wagon.

FOS. If him self voting enforces your belief that he is town, then I think you must be scum trying to gain town cred when Xdaamo flips town. There's absolutely no reason why a self vote should get you town cred. I think I've just convinced myself I think it more likely that Xdaamo is trying to gain sympathy.

"When" Xdaamno flips town? Don't you mean "if"? You're making it seem like it was

just

the self-vote that made me think he was more likely to be town. I had also already mentioned that I thought his play was similar to one of the past town games I looked into.

Also, did you even look at those previous self-voting games I've linked to? I've taken this exact same position in multiple games where I've been town and have found it to be a fairly successful town-tell. I don't think his frustration looks manufactured, I

do

think his frustration looks genuine and townish, and so I don't want to lynch him today. Do you think my reasoning for thinking him town looks contrived?

I add Incog to my list of Dizzy and Yos to give you the scumteam.

Sorry, but I'm obvtown.

Charter's on, like...

everyone's

peripherals. It's creepy.

I'm counting at least 6 people who seem willing to lynch him (OGML, you, Patrick, Yosarian2 seemed to voice some recent concern, camn probably would, and I'd be completely willing to lynch him too especially after this last post of his).

[Xdaamno]

Limited access until around Wednesday 22nd, but should still be able to post occasionally.

(No change, then! )

I might be able to finish and post this analysis by then. Otherwise, that's my deadline.

[OhGodMyLife]

Unvote, Vote: charter