Mini 761 - Game Over

[alexhans]

I wan't to hear from the rest of the players what do they think. If you asked me right now to choose between the two of them, I'd say lynch Panzer. But I haven't decided yet.

[Zachrulez]

The timing of the claim doesn't bother me, nor does it's difficulty in being believed.

What DOES bother me is that Panzer never bothered to make any kind of case on Steph when he was voting for him.

Also... why did you target Amished?

[Stephoscope]

I agree that it's a hard claim to believe. Especially this: Why did it took him so long to claim? Why would he ask Lester that thing about

me

especifically if Lester didn't have to know he was a watcher... It's weird.

I would also like to mention that look how long it took Panzerjager to formulate his desparation ploy here, whereas it took me only about 20 minutes to prepare and submit my defense. Since my word is basically worth nothing until Panzer is lynched and flips, I will just be referring back to my post 496 any time someone asks me why I should be believed over him.

[alexhans]

I would also like to mention that look how long it took Panzerjager to formulate his desparation ploy here

Maybe it took time to read Fakeclaiming for Dummies

Anyway... I'm reading it now to see if there's some usefulness in it.

[Zachrulez]

I'm just looking through Panzer's posts for ANY KIND OF A CASE against Stephoscope. Which is something I would expect a pro-town watcher to do.

[alexhans]

On other occasions, delaying your lynch even one day can make a huge difference. In Mafia 58- Ready Salted Mafia, I was tracked performing the scum's nightkill, but managed to wriggle out of the lynch by claiming to be a Watcher who had seen a townie do it. The townie got lynched, I was able to nightkill the cop that night, and instead of an easy town victory, my buddy Battle Mage got to endgame, and would have won had the townie he was pushing not gotten modkilled. One-shot claims, or claims that can be 'tested' that night, are useful for this.

mmm... take a look at this... The usefulness of Panzer claiming watcher not only lays on attacking Steph but also on having a reason to have used a night action on him (assuming Panzer killed Amished). The only way I can see Panzer surviving tomorrow (if he is a watcher) is that Steph would've claimed Cop and used it on Amished. So yeah, basically one of the 2 is scum or SK (As none of them claimed vig).

I'm just looking through Panzer's posts for ANY KIND OF A CASE against Stephoscope. Which is something I would expect a pro-town watcher to do.

I agree. Really fishy.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Unvote

Vote: Stephoscope

Unless Panz is running the dumbest VT gambit of all-time at least one of these two is anti-town. The reason for the vote are twofold, I need more information to try and untangle this situation and lynching Panz doesn't give me that. More pressure on Steph on the other hand might. Secondly, for game theory reasons I currently believe Steph to be the better choice.

[alexhans]

I need more information to try and untangle this situation and lynching Panz doesn't give me that.

Why doesn't it give you info? If panzer flips scum/SK it's all good... If he is indeed the watcher then Steph is lying and deserves a lynch. If he is another role Panzer Sucks. if we lynch Steph and he is scum/SK then it's all good but if he isn't then we must lynch panz for lying. If Steph is another role we're screwed for fucking up with it. So they're basically equal but the difference lies on the watcher being an expendable role.
The other problem is that I don't see so many inconsistencies in Steph's case as I do in Panzer's, in fact, I have a slight town read regarding Steph and, as I've developed along the game, a big scum read regarding Panzer.

[Zachrulez]

Why does lynching Stephoscope over Panzer give you more info?

Why do you feel Steph is a better choice?

[alexhans]

Why is jazzmin posting everywhere but here?
Ash hasn't been active since april 9 but Jazz has posted recently in other threads.
Lester has posted last on this game.
ryan has posted last on this game.
Me, Panz, Zach, Steph and DDD posted today.

What's wrong with Jazz? Why the lurking?

[Jazzmyn]

Panzer's claim does not ring true at all. If he had honestly had a "watcher" result on Steph targeting Amished, it makes no sense at all that he would not press a case on Steph (and he never has) but instead he has just hopped around with his vote every which way the wind blows.

I don't believe him.

And, for the record, although I still disagree with a lot of what Zach has said and posted, I'm getting a more town read from him now than I did previously. Some of my suspicions of him were formed without realizing that Panzer replaced lordzoner, but when when I went back to the beginning of the game, I realized that some of those suspicions do not really make sense in light of who replaced whom.

Regards,
Jazz

[alexhans]

jazz: Your last post in this game was April 13, 2009 9:48 pm. Did you read everything from there now?
Don't you find anything else worthy of a comment? Much has happened since you last posted...
It took you 6 minutes exactly since I called out on you... Isn't that strange?

[Jazzmyn]

Why is jazzmin posting everywhere but here?
Ash hasn't been active since april 9 but Jazz has posted recently in other threads.
Lester has posted last on this game.
ryan has posted last on this game.
Me, Panz, Zach, Steph and DDD posted today.

What's wrong with Jazz? Why the lurking?

What are you on about? It is not accurate to say that I have been "posting everywhere but here" and it is not accurate to say that I am "lurking".

If you've actually paid attention to my posting, you will have noted the following:

1) I posted here, and in most or all of my 8 games, on Monday.
2) I posted in none of my games on Tuesday.
3) I posted in only 3 of my games on Wednesday - one in the endgame, one in the startup, and one ongoing game in which I indicated that real life has been crazy busy this week and thus time is short.
4) I posted in only 2 of my games so far today - the new game that required my choice of mask for the game, and this one, after spending a few hours reading, noting, and analyzing the posts. I hope to post in more of my other games tonight, but this one has taken up quite a bit of my time so I'm not sure how many of the others I'll get to.

I don't have time at present to respond to every post, and it seems somewhat redundant to do so at present anyway, particularly in light of all that has transpired since Monday.

I think that the wagon on Alex (you) was totally scum driven and designed solely to take the heat off of Panzer. I have drawn certain conclusions from that, but the details are best left for later. I think that Panzer is scum and that he is now trying to set up a mislynch on Steph to, once again, avoid his own lynch.

Regards,
Jazz

[ryan2754]

What exactly is the Watcher role? I've never seen this one before, and would like the pure case on the hypotheticals (meaning, if Panzer did watch Steph, what exaclty does that mean?)

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Why does lynching Stephoscope over Panzer give you more info?

Lynching doesn't give me any information for today, but putting the pressure on does. We've seen how Panz reacts when at L-1 with a large portion of the town bearing down on him, but since it's either him or Steph I'd like to know how Steph reacts in the same type of position.

Why do you feel Steph is a better choice?

While I'm not thrilled by the Panz claim and the way he went about it, I'm pretty confident I can predict his reasoning for his behavior. And while it's a legitimate high level town technique it's also quite a convenient backdoor as scum.

The reason I'd wouldn't mind a Steph lynch as much right now is because I expect one of the killing roles (since we clearly have another one besides a basic mafia) to take care of Panz tonight no matter what his alignment. I could see Steph making it through the night however and leaving some nasty WIFOM in his wake.

[Stephoscope]

We've seen how Panz reacts when at L-1 with a large portion of the town bearing down on him, but since it's either him or Steph I'd like to know how Steph reacts in the same type of position.

If you're hoping for a roleclaim from me, why don't you come right out and say it?

(Note: I'm fairly certain I will not roleclaim under any circumstances. Panzerjager's lynch will clear me, and I see no reason, despite DDD's questionable logic, why I should be lynched before Panzerjager.)

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

We've seen how Panz reacts when at L-1 with a large portion of the town bearing down on him, but since it's either him or Steph I'd like to know how Steph reacts in the same type of position.

If you're hoping for a roleclaim from me, why don't you come right out and say it?

If I wanted a role claim now, I would've asked for one, thanks.

(Note: Panzerjager's lynch will clear me, and I see no reason, despite DDD's questionable logic, why I should be lynched before Panzerjager.)

A. No, it won't, there's this little technique called bussing which often happens.

B. Because the case on Panz is flimsy as hell and mostly based on stringing together if and coulds in my view. Now his claim is a bit ugly, but again I don't see "for sure" scum in it either. Hence I'm quite willing to consider both options in this case.

You know, let's do this, could someone please give me a quick and dirty summation of the points showing that Panz is scum, please?

[Stephoscope]

You know, let's do this, could someone please give me a quick and dirty summation of the points showing that Panz is scum, please?

My 496.

[PJ.]

I had practically a guilty on steph. My plan was to save it when I needed it. Thiswould be a time when I needed it. I'm feeling really confidant that I have the scum nailed as Alex, Jazz, and Steph.

I picked Amished because he seemed to be the only player I agreed with day 1 seemed rather protown to me.

I love that alex has tunneled on me so badly.

[X]

Vote Count

Panzerjager

: (3) Jazzmyn, ryan2754, Stephoscope

Stephoscope

: (2) Debonair Danny DiPietro, Panzerjager

alexhans

: (1) LesterGroans

Debonair Danny DiPietro

: (1)

AshKetchummm

Not Voting

: (2) alexhans, Zachrulez

Vote Threshold

: 5

Happiness with Posting Level

:

Satisfied

[Stephoscope]

I had practically a guilty on steph. My plan was to save it when I needed it. Thiswould be a time when I needed it. I'm feeling really confidant that I have the scum nailed as Alex, Jazz, and Steph.

I think the best thing we can do is sacrifice this person to test the veracity of his claim. If he's right, then by all means we'll start lynching, me first!

[LesterGroans]

Can someone give me some more info as to what The Watcher does exactly?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

The Watcher is most commonly understood to be an information role that can target a person at night and learn who else targeted (or visited) that person on that same night.

Allegedly Watcher Panz targeted Amished and saw Steph target Amished. Steph denies targeting Amished last night.

[LesterGroans]

Okay, thanks.

So basically we can trust Panzer and lynch Steph, or we can believe that Panzer is lying, lynch Panzer and if he flips what he's saying lynch Steph anyway?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Okay, thanks.

So basically we can trust Panzer and lynch Steph, or we can believe that Panzer is lying, lynch Panzer and if he flips what he's saying lynch Steph anyway?

We trust Panz -> Lynch Steph -> Steph is scum, huzzah
----------------------------------------> Steph is town, Panz is NKed or lynched next day.
We think Panz is lying scum -> Lynch Panz -> Panz is scum, huzzah. Steph may or may not be scum.
-------------------------------------------------------> Panz is a watcher, Steph is scum, Steph is NKed or lynched the next day.