Mini 761 - Game Over

[Zachrulez]

Danny he's at lynch -1, and as was pointed out by Stephoscope, he was speculating about his own role. (And indicating he might be a power role.)

Would you find it a responsible town action to hammer Panzer without a claim after considering the above?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Danny he's at lynch -1, and as was pointed out by Stephoscope, he was speculating about his own role. (And indicating he might be a power role.)

Yeah, I wasn't thrilled about that argument either. Except I've done the same thing as a third party, so it's not entirely a foreign concept to me, though I don't know what it suggests in this case about Panz's alignment because I can come up with scenarios from every perspective why someone would make that statement.

Would you find it a responsible town action to hammer Panzer without a claim after considering the above?

This statement is contingent on a hammer, considering I'm currently on the record as thinking a hammer is a bad idea. I would say it's irresponsible, but moreso because it needlessly cuts off discussion then because of a lack of claim.

[Zachrulez]

Yes, but we aren't the only people in the game.

Lester and Ash could both hammer at this point as well.

The issue isn't so much whether or not hammering is a good idea, the issue is whether a hammer is possible, or even probable, and whether or not we'd be hammering someone who's potentially a power role. (Which Panzer can tell us by claiming.)

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Yes, but we aren't the only people in the game.

Lester and Ash could both hammer at this point as well.

The issue isn't so much whether or not hammering is a good idea, the issue is whether a hammer is possible, or even probable, and whether or not we'd be hammering someone who's potentially a power role. (Which Panzer can tell us by claiming.)

If Lester or Ash are intent on hammering, then claim or not they will. The defenses for such an action either with or without a claim on the board are both weak, but are basically impossible to refute, usually consisting of the phrase, "I thought he was scum" or "I didn't believe him". If we view hammering without a claim as worse, by pushing the claim off as long as possible we hopefully hold scum in check to give us more time to get everyone involved and discuss everything that needs to be discussed.

[PJ.]

Watcher

[ryan2754]

At DDD: the only thing I ask of you is that when you don't think people post compelling arguments, say what isn't compelling. Break the argument down, just don't say it "isn't compelling"

Also, there is a string of quotes that is screwed up in my long post before. It's where [quote='Alexhans] shows up outside of a quote string. You'll see what I said when look inside that quote box, just have to look for it.

[alexhans]

@Alex: I still can't understand how you say there is no case against you.

It's just that I don't feel there is... You outlined a couple of things that might be seen as scummy so I guess you could call your a case but Panzer is just attacking and trying to destroy everything I say and Lester didn't provide much but copying what others had said.

Subjective reads is what this game is about. In a sense, almost all cases are made out of subjective reads. It's what people use to scumhunt: make some cases, and see how people respond. It is the essence of the game, considering the only objective knowledge we get is confirmed roles, and voting patterns. And right now, the sample size is small.

You're right but sometimes there is hard evidence on stuff or big contradictions or really scummy attitudes... I think I don't qualify in any of those.

Regarding the Jazz issue have just thought about something... She was already voting Panzer... If I was scum... In what way would buddying her help me?

Being scummy is not what I said. I said it was anti-town. Whether your role, saying something like that is a bad idea, IMO. Not to mention you said you were looking for scumpairs.

Yeah. you can rest assured I'll think it twice before pulling that kind of stunt next time. I thought I would be the one investigating from it. Not so heavily accussed.

Except for you, ryan2754. And you're telling me *I'm* flying under the radar?

I have been thinking along the same lines but as liked one post you did recently I had a town-read on you. Now I'm not sure if YOU are opportunistic or just incredibly wrong.

Is YOU, me?

Yeah... I disliked inmensely the timing of YOUR vote to me when Panzer and Lester hadn't even laid a case on me. You could've waited a bit.

have given explanation. I'm sure this isn't geared towards me, but give what you don't udnerstand. Be more descriptive.

Yes. You're the one who has explained the most. But yet I don't understand the sudden shift at me putting me at L-1 in a moment when the only thing I did was laid a pretty decent case IMO that was ignored by most (not by you or Zach).

This translates to me as, “Oh, shit zach is starting to catch on, I’m gonna lay off Panzer for now so I can try to distance from jazz.”

You're seriously pairing me with Jazz as a scumteam??? Then why would I make the comment of pleasing jazzmin? How would that be good for me if we were partners?

That's not what I said at all. Why would I even bother lying about that with timestamps? I said I was coming to place my vote, saw that Panzer had right above mine... but how would that change my suspicions on you? I placed my vote anyway.

Ok... Stand me corrected. I misread your post. You actually said that you wanted to vote for me but you saw Panzer's vote... then decided to post it anyway because you saw no reason for not doing it. Right? My only problem is that you voted without reasons.

The bolded part: ummm, i never said I mentioned it before. I'm just mentioning it now. Am I supposed to pre-mention things?

The fact is that you seem to be picking things from others and not knowing what to say in your case against me.

you're mafia, know which kill was yours, so knew which was not.

If this were true I wouldn't know wich PR is left... SK or vig. So it doesn't add to the logic in wich I said there could be a vig and not necesarilly an SK.

You seem to be misreading and misleading what people are saying to you, maybe you're just getting your fur up for being accussed.

If I misread something I'm sorry. I don't mislead however. I try to make things clear. I take my time to explain and lay my cases (and then vote). Maybe I get paranoid when I'm attacked but that's my natural reaction, as I've explained earlier, because I know I'm town I am biased in that way. I can't think why anyone would think I'm scummy. Anyway, I will work on that and try to be cooler and clear under pressure.

@Ryan, I really don't see how I contradict myself unless you take what I say out of context.

Also, have you modded before? It's not that much work. Also I've always found it EASIER to put votes in order. Anyway, I digress simply because either way, it's not a tell.

Again. That's all you have to say? I agree that it's a simpler way of modding though, especially after reading the thread made by X asking about this particular motive. He received practically unanimous answers that that's the easiest and most helpful way. But I did found it lazy.

Danny he's at lynch -1, and as was pointed out by Stephoscope, he was speculating about his own role. (And indicating he might be a power role.)

Would you find it a responsible town action to hammer Panzer without a claim after considering the above?

I think that there's only one role that can't be ever claimed: Doctor. Then again, claiming vanilla is generally useless because it narrows the PRs for scum. Lying, and I imagine Panzer could go for it, is absolutely never good for town.

Watcher

mmm...

Unvote

For now... I want to hear from Ash and Jazz about what's going on too.

@Panzer: Care to tell us who did you watch?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

At DDD: the only thing I ask of you is that when you don't think people post compelling arguments, say what isn't compelling. Break the argument down, just don't say it "isn't compelling"

See post #433 where I broke down what I considered to be three of the most common arguments I'd seen against Panz. With several people making wall posts against another player I'm not always going to step in and do a full quote for quote breakdown.

@Ryan, I really don't see how I contradict myself unless you take what I say out of context.

Also, have you modded before? It's not that much work. Also I've always found it EASIER to put votes in order. Anyway, I digress simply because either way, it's not a tell.

Again. That's all you have to say? I agree that it's a simpler way of modding though, especially after reading the thread made by X asking about this particular motive. He received practically unanimous answers that that's the easiest and most helpful way. But I did found it lazy.

Alex, unless you've got some brilliant logic or evidence on how lazy = scum I have no idea why you're still harping on this point. It distracts from any real arguments you might be making.

[PJ.]

No I'm not willing to tell you right now. When the time comes I will happily divulge all information.

[X]

Vote Count

Panzerjager

: (3) Jazzmyn, ryan2754, Stephoscope

alexhans

: (2) LesterGroans, Panzerjager

AshKetchummm

: (1) Debonair Danny DiPietro

Debonair Danny DiPietro

: (1)

AshKetchummm

Not Voting

: (2) alexhans, Zachrulez

Vote Threshold

: 5

Happiness with Posting Level

:

Satisified

Over 48 hours has passed since AshKetchummm was prodded. Commencing replacement search for AshKetchummm.

[alexhans]

See post #433 where I broke down what I considered to be three of the most common arguments I'd seen against Panz.

I have yet to see a point against Panz that makes me think he's scum.

I agree with him, in general, that speculating about the night kill is generally a pointless endeavor.

Jazzmyn is hypocritical to hilarious degrees in post 365, she calls out Panz for saying the Steph lynch is obvious and then as Zach noted she called Wall-E "obvscum" earlier in the game and asserts with complete confidence that Panz has to be scum. So either she's behaving in a fashion she herself deems scummy or she's blowing smoke about it being a scumtell, neither answer is good.

I seem to recall it being considered a point against Panz that he requested the mod put votes in time order, which reeks to me of someone trying to find a reason to vote for someone instead of actually bothering to do the hard analysis.

So, the evidence doesn't suggest he's scum, but his posts don't really sway me to believe he's a townie. So I have him in the middle of the pack and would probably label him a townie of some stripe based on the ratio of scum/town.

I do not think lynching Panz would be a good lynch and I think there are several better suspects on the day.

I think you're being too general and not addressing my post where I voted Panzer.

With several people making wall posts against another player I'm not always going to step in and do a full quote for quote breakdown.

I don't follow. You didn't mind that when you we're fighting Steph and defending Amished.

Alex, unless you've got some brilliant logic or evidence on how lazy = scum I have no idea why you're still harping on this point. It distracts from any real arguments you might be making.

Why don't you read! I say that is lazy, not scummy necessarily. You keep looking for the little points wich I stated were unconclusive and ignore the overall case. There are other things that are much more scummy about him. Instead of looking at Panzer you're looking at whoever attacks him. I'm not saying look Only at Panzer, but at least look at him.

No I'm not willing to tell you right now. When the time comes I will happily divulge all information.

Amazing... When's the time right? Why do you claim if it's totally unsupported? Are you waiting for a signal or something? You keep doing scummy things post after post (If I'd fosed you everytime I would've ran out of foses).

mmmm... hope we get a replacement on Ash soon. replaced people are usually more objective (unless of course, they're scum).

[PJ.]

Amazing...why does my result matter to you so much? Guilty conscious maybe?

[alexhans]

Amazing...why does my result matter to you so much? Guilty conscious maybe?

*sigh*, because it could be useful to prove your innocence. And it's not dangerous to you at all so I can't understand your not wanting to say it.

[PJ.]

I don't see how a result claims my innocence anymore more then me alrwady be an uncounterclaimed watcher.

[alexhans]

I don't see how a result claims my innocence anymore more then me alrwady be an uncounterclaimed watcher.

wow.... "uncounterclaimed watcher" Of course! It's mandatory to have a watcher in every game... Come on! You know perfectly well there may not be one (Or even be a player that is missing for all you know). Cop would be harder to fake because it's much more probable.

What's exactly your problem with revealing who you watched? Do you have to remember it or just invent it? You need more time to make up a convincing reason to pretend to have watched somebody?

[PJ.]

No, I watched Amished and Steph targetted him. Happy? I was trying to draw guilt.

[PJ.]

Huge FoS:Alex hans

Unvote Vote:Steph

Sorry, I submitted too fast.

[alexhans]

No, I watched Amished and Steph targetted him. Happy? I was trying to draw guilt.

I am. Why didn't you say so before? Did you think that your obv Steph vote was obv for us that we didnt know this? Why did you vote Lester after Steph? Why do you vote me? Why didn't you make a better case against Steph trying to use his post in isolation?

[Stephoscope]

Panzerjager is lying.

I won't fall into his trap by saying anything about me. But I assure you all that he's lying. He is scum.

[PJ.]

Because I wanted to see what other scum I can catch. Now Steph is obv scum.

[alexhans]

I don't know if meta is very useful but I'll take anything I can get... Panzerjagger lies in his claim here
I'm really wary about Panzer.... And him not saying his watcher role earlier is weird, especially if he was sure to catch scum...
Can you give us links to games were you claimed and turned out to be what you claimed?

@Steph: So we take that you didn't target Amished in any way? (I'm not rolefishing here. This is a crucial moment and we need to decide who is scum between this too). Steph could also be SK if Panzer was telling the truth.

[Stephoscope]

I hope everyone thinks it through and realizes why Panzerjager's bogus claim is so predictable. He picked a role that in theory multiple people could have (right?), so that if there is a real Watcher he or she will stay silent; he needed a person to try and get lynched instead of him, and he built off of a night action that supposedly implicated me. Ask yourself: what are the chances that not only is Panzerjager truly a Watcher, but he also just happened to conveniently watch someone who turned up dead the next day?

I sure hope we're lynching this guy. If he flips town, which he absolutely won't, you have my word: I'll start tomorrow by voting for myself and encouraging you all to immediately do so too!

[Stephoscope]

@Steph: So we take that you didn't target Amished in any way? (I'm not rolefishing here. This is a crucial moment and we need to decide who is scum between this too). Steph could also be SK if Panzer was telling the truth.

Correct: I did not target Amished in any way.

[Zachrulez]

Ok guys.

One of them has to be lying.

So one of them is certainly scum.

So we're definitely lynching one of them.

[alexhans]

I hope everyone thinks it through and realizes why Panzerjager's bogus claim is so predictable. He picked a role that in theory multiple people could have (right?), so that if there is a real Watcher he or she will stay silent; he needed a person to try and get lynched instead of him, and he built off of a night action that supposedly implicated me. Ask yourself: what are the chances that not only is Panzerjager truly a Watcher, but he also just happened to conveniently watch someone who turned up dead the next day?

I agree that it's a hard claim to believe. Especially this: Why did it took him so long to claim? Why would he ask Lester that thing about

me

especifically if Lester didn't have to know he was a watcher... It's weird.

I sure hope we're lynching this guy. If he flips town, which he absolutely won't, you have my word: I'll start tomorrow by voting for myself and encouraging you all to immediately do so too!

lol. You're pretty convincing (I'll add this to my hall of fame quotes)