Mafia 88- Return to New Catania- Game Over!

[Shanba]

This game, I think, proves how powerful it is to get to kill anyone who is on your tracks. There were no shortage of people who called out Yosscum in particular. They just had an unfortunate habit of dying, one way or another.

[Elmo]

I can only remember Claus saying YosScum. Considering how long ago, this may be memory rather than actual lack of people, but still. (I can't find anything that looks like a case apart from 673)

[Shanba]

I can only remember Claus saying YosScum. Considering how long ago, this may be memory rather than actual lack of people, but still. (I can't find anything that looks like a case apart from 673)

Hrm. I must be remembering it badly, but I thought especially days 1 and 2 that Yos came under a lot of pressure.

I also thought that there was some backlash against him later on, when he was lynching Sens

[The Fonz]

Florida Mafia Don (inv immune)- Yosarian2
FL Goon- CuriousKarmaDog
FL Goon- Natirasha

Colombian Cartel Godfather (NK immune)- farside22
CC Goon - xyzzy
CC Goon - Killa Seven


Traitor - GeorgeCarlin [The traitor could be recruited by either mafia faction if they targetted him for an nk. If both did on the same night, he died in the crossfire. If neither ever did, his condition was to survive.]

Cop- Puta Puta
Cop- Militant
Miller- ZTR
Miller- Der Hammer
One-shot doc- Hoopla
Vig- OhGodMyLife
Townie - Panda Stomper 85
Townie - Shanba
Townie - Tubby216
Townie - Sir Tornado
Townie - Sobeahero
Townie - SensFan
Townie - Ectomancer
Townie - Seraphim
Townie - Battle Mage

The idea of this setup, basically, was to punish lazy assumptions. So, there were both two cops, and two millers. On the scum side, the 1-shot doc was added to protect the first cop to claim- which would punish scum if they then assumed the cop would be protected indefinitely. The vig I actually put in to help the scum by speeding up the game with extra nightkills. I basically wanted to demonstrate that trigger-happy vigs are detrimental unless their accuracy is particularly good.

A word on the SSK situation- I hope people can see the rationale in stumping the cop, giving the doc his protection back, and leaving it there. Any further action I could have taken I feel would have further distorted the game- in particular Ecto's suggestion that i 'bump a townie up to cop' which would have basically confirmed that player. Since the doctor died the next night anyway, we can assume that the mistake cost the town one investigation, at most (since the scum who killed the doctor would presumably have either done what they actually did, or targeted the cop, had the protection gone through).

[Shanba]

It wasn't just an investigation we lost, it was an active and motivated pro-town player with good scum reads actively pursuing those reads. But yeah.

[The Fonz]

Well, yeah. But you lost AT MOST one day of Claus.

[Adel]

Well, yeah. But you lost AT MOST one day of Claus.

and got one day of mod-confirmed Claus in the game. An active and motivated and skilled player like Claus being mod-confirmed can be a powerful force in a game.

[Adel]

I just noticed that this was my 10th game as mafia -- I have a 70% win rate as mafia now.

[Claus]

Since the doctor died the next night anyway, we can assume that the mistake cost the town one investigation, at most

And gave the scum one extra kill.

The scum could have killed the doc. OR they could have killed me. They ended up doing both in a single day.

[Adel]

They should have been forced to spend a kill on me, just like they would if the mod error didn't happen.

whose kill would you have taken away? The FL or the Colombian?

What is the better solution you would have used in his place?

[Claus]

Well, yeah. But you lost AT MOST one day of Claus.

and got one day of mod-confirmed Claus in the game. An active and motivated and skilled player like Claus being mod-confirmed can be a powerful force in a game.

Thanks Adel, but, honestly, If I really were that skilled, I wouldn't have lost my motivation in that Day three. The miskill + town's apathy made me lose whatever stake I had in the game at the time.

In retrospect, I should have used the chance to claim that I was motivated by either the Fonz or SSK, and faked a guilty on Yos before being removed from the game.

[Claus]

They should have been forced to spend a kill on me, just like they would if the mod error didn't happen.

whose kill would you have taken away? The FL or the Colombian?

Whoever targetted me. They would have lost their kill to the doc the first time anyway.

[Adel]

town apathy is probably most most valuable asset a scum team can enjoy.

[Claus]

On, and Fonz, you are right about the replacing thing. It is just frustrating to see a team which was already controlling the game having that position consolidated by having Adel added to it.

[Adel]

They should have been forced to spend a kill on me, just like they would if the mod error didn't happen.

whose kill would you have taken away? The FL or the Colombian?

Whoever targetted me. They would have lost their kill to the doc the first time anyway.

so they killed Claus, only for him to be stumped instead, and then would lose their kill on the next night -- all through no fault of their own. That would be seen as hella unfair by the scum team. You could've had successful investigation results from the previous night to reveal, Fonz didn't know. 7/16 other players were scum at point in the game -- almost 50-50.


You easily could've gotten Yos2 lynched if you had tried hard enough, even without faking a result. You were a mod-confirmed cop. As it worked out, scum got lynched on day 3 anyway, leaving (2 vs 2)+1 vs 9, with one vig and one 1-shot doc (and two millers) left on the town side, which seems about balanced to me.

I think OGML's horrible aim (except for killing Xyl, good job there) and townie apathy (and the Colombians not getting a cross-kill in) had far more to do with the town's loss then mod error did... dual-scum games are always going to be swingy.

~~~

on the other hand, I think that if OGML killed you, taking away his kill on the following night probably would've been a good solution.

[Adel]

actually, taking away OGML's kill on the following night + stumping you might have been a better solution regardless.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[Adel]

On, and Fonz, you are right about the replacing thing. It is just frustrating to see a team which was already controlling the game having that position consolidated by having Adel added to it.

the cops were dead, and the Colombians had a nk-immune player with the vig still on the loose, whereas our godfather was investigation immune. Our numbers were even. If anything, they should've had the advantage.

I identified Xtoxm as probable scum, and the CarnCarn lynch was not a predictable result -- I walked in expecting to lynch Tubby or Der Hammer.

[Claus]

Whoever targetted me. They would have lost their kill to the doc the first time anyway.

so they killed Claus, only for him to be stumped instead, and then would lose their kill on the next night
[/quote]

Except that they DIDN'T kill me.

So they got to kill me when they shouldn't have killed ANYONE, and then got to kill again the next night.

So, not, it was not totally unfair to the scum.

You easily could've gotten Yos2 lynched if you had tried hard enough,

I know. That is why I was saying that I'm not as skilled as you put me to be. That is totally my fault.

I think OGML's horrible aim (except for killing Xyl, good job there) and townie apathy (and the Colombians not getting a cross-kill in) had far more to do with the town's loss then mod error did... dual-scum games are
always going to be swingy.

I agree. I never said that the game was lost to mod error. I just said that the fonz made the wrong call, now that we are in the post-game discussion.

on the other hand, I think that if OGML killed you, taking away his kill on the following night probably would've been a good solution.

I agree. Like I said, take away the kill of whoever hit me.

[Yosarian2]

Yeah, Adel is right here. We did not have the advantage when she replaced in; the two scum teams were even. Then, first, our scumteam nightkilled a member of the other team, and then we lynched the other member of the other scumteam. Making it sound like we were already winning when Adel replaced in really isn't fair to Adel.

[The Fonz]

They should have been forced to spend a kill on me, just like they would if the mod error didn't happen.

whose kill would you have taken away? The FL or the Colombian?

Whoever targetted me. They would have lost their kill to the doc the first time anyway.

Now imagine they'd used that kill for a crosskill. Removing the kill from one scumgroup just benefits the other, since they get the benefit of dead cop, and lose the risk of crosskill.

Basically, any mod intervention just ran the risk of distorting things more. My intention was just to mitigate the direct effects of the mistake, rather than try to counterbalance it.

[tubby216]

i thought it was an excellant game fonz,

my play was poor but i did make it to endgame wich is kinda cool,

i kept second guessing myself especially when adel replaced in.

I thought for a hot second that adel could be scum but then decided agianst it goin with "some times it is what it appears to be" line of logic, i felt i was reading to far into it.

i must be more careful when it comes to adel, yos played an excellant game i never really suspect yos i thought yos was town as all heck.

[Ectomancer]

Good game scumbags. Sorry I had to replace out. Might have gone slightly differently as Yos set off my "Why exactly is he doing this?" radar after he attacked my directive to any possible remaining purple scum to hold their kill that night. I thought at the time that I was right, but didnt have time to delve into Yos' dissecting of the issue and I don't think anyone else bothered to either. Still haven't had a chance to do more than skim the game. (I move in 10 days! 3 bedroom 2 bath with 3 living areas and a pool! Woohoo!)
Thanks for replacing my Fonz, sorry I couldn't complete it. I liked the setup and how it was playing out.

Yos' alignment does reinforce my belief that I am taking the right path in developing my scum hunting. Sounds odd, but I try not to take into account who the player is, or really what they said so much as what their statement accomplishes and why they would want that to happen. If it looks fishy, it probably is. My problem now is that I have a tendency to leave those people alive long enough to try to see if there was another explanation or not

[OhGodMyLife]

I actually feel the worst about the fact that the one scum I did manage to kill was still essentially a survivor.

I didn't shoot claus. My kills were Sir T, Militant, Skitzer, Xyl and Howard Roark. I thought it was blatantly obvious that I was vig after the screwup with Mili not dying at first and me immediately voting him, but the only person who seemed to pick up on that (and tried to get a case going on me for it) was magisterrain.

[Claus]

Sounds odd, but I try not to take into account who the player is, or really what they said so much as what their statement accomplishes and why they would want that to happen.

I don't think this to be odd at all. I feel that this is the recipe for good scumhunting.

[Yosarian2]

Ecto: Actually, in the mafia quicktopic, I was origionally planning to kill you, because I thought there was a significant risk you'd get me lynched. Adel convinced me to try to kill someone in the purple scum group instead, and she was right about Xtoxm.

OGML: The thing that really gave you away to me was when I had that whole big analysis saying "if there's a vig, we should lynch red scum; if there's a SK, we should lynch purple scum" and you responded saying "I think we should lynch red scum."