Newbie 744 -- Game Over!

[Kmd4390]

Oh, and...

I'll forgive you if you'll make/join an Ash bandwagon

I'm much more confident in CnT being scum.

[Yaw]

Vote Count:

CntRational (3): Kmd4390, syndromeofadown, Raivann
syndromeofadown (1): ZazieR

Not Voting: alexhans, AshKetchummm, CntRational

4 to lynch

Unfortunately, CntRational has PMed to request replacement. Sorry about this situation -- I'll get people in here as soon as possible.

[ZazieR]

Sorry Kmd, but I'm not convinced anymore that CntR is scum.

1) The FoS in the RVS when you weren't voting anyone. I saw this as cautious play matching your meta, but that's wrong as you have been more aggressive lately.

2) The fear of putting SoaD at L-2 which is notable because of your L-1 vote on Ash later.

3) Calling out Dennis for lurking when a few others were worse offenders, specifically Mizz.

4) Also quick to jump on the "lurker" who had posted 30 hours before you called him out.

5) Called Mizz a confused townie and then voted Ash 3 posts later with little reasoning.

6) Placed Ash at L-1 with little reasoning. Looks like you want to lynch pretty quickly there.

1. You're basing his meta upon one game. And this is wrong. My first game was NG 646. I tunnelvisioned hard on one player I thought was scum.
My second game was NG 663. Here I looked at everybody at all times, except when I was convinced that a player couldn't be scum.
I was more aggressive in the first game than in the second. But I was town in both games. You can't speak of a meta with one game as most players try to find out what the best approach is.

2. That vote of SoaD was during the RVS. His vote against Ash was serious. You're making a very bad comparison here as both votes have a different meaning in the game. Most players don't want to lynch somebody with a random vote. That should explain why he would be afraid of putting SoaD at L-2. There have been games where a lynch has been reached within one or two pages. And that doesn't help town. But when you think somebody is scum, you do want them lynched. Which was apparently the case with Ash.
The only thing I do agree with you is that he should have stated the reasons. Now, it could just be the case of trying to escape the suspicions. But I still believe he's innocent. It only bothers me that he left before responding.

3. In my opinion, this would have been scummy if he only mentioned the same lurker each time, and forgot about all the others. But this wasn't the case. So I'd like to know why this is scummy to you.

4. Again, what's scummy about this?

5. He indeed said:

Thought that she was mostly a lurker-ish (who could be putting up a newbie pose) player before she left, but at the moment, I

feel

that she

might

just be a confused townie.

He never stated that he was sure about this. But like I already said, he should have given his reasons.

6. This is indeed true. But Ash hammered somebody without ever mentioning Blue, except for the time when he said that he saw CntR as scummier. So what's your opinion of that? And tell me why that's less scummy than what CntR has done.
So in my opinion, the only scummy thing left is him not saying why Ash was scummy to him at that time and not doing so after he was asked.
I think the Ash and SoaD cases are stronger

[Yaw]

knox replaces syndromeofadown.

[knox]

Hey everyone, I’m just going to read up on the game and should post something properly soon.

[Raivann]

welcome knox

[ZazieR]

Welcome Knox I know you can't respond regarding things SoaD have done, but I do hope you try.

Raivann, you've been pretty silent lately. What do you think of the things I have said against Ash, SoaD and what about my last post?

[Yaw]

Conspicuous_other replaces CntRational. I'll give a few days for the new people to catch up before deadlining.

[alexhans]

Conspicuous_other... weren't you replaced recently in 761? What makes you think you have time now?
anyway Knox, Conspicuous hurry up!!! we need you to decide what's happening here.

[knox]

Thanks for the welcomes and sorry for taking so long, I had to make several attempts to read through the game as I was doing both during my waking up and going to bed period

Zazie I will try to answer the questions as best I can (this is answering from post 273 which I think is what you were referring to),
• First question I believe was about the ‘joke’ post at the beginning of Day 2 in regards to believing Blue was 100% clean prior to the lynch. When reading it I agree that it didn’t seem like a joke and as you already pointed out SoaD tended to put smileys with joke posts and just generally the way it was written. However I still think it’s odd that he was aiming something at yellowbunny even though she was already dead and so considering that I’m not sure why he added that whole section in his post in the first place. So don’t really know how to answer that further.

• Second was about no believing about him being busy and under stress irl. I don’t think we will ever know about this as you admitted yourself it could be due different dates and time zones.
• Third was about why you voted him in the first place. LAL, I’m not sure how can reply to this as I am not SoaD and am also unsure as to why he did not vote for CntR on Day 1.

• As for his choice not to defend himself, if his being busy irl is true maybe he just didn’t have the time to do so or was just giving up. Who knows?

If they were the questions you meant there you are and if they are not I would be happy to give you my opinion on the ones you were referring to.

[ZazieR]

First of all, welcome C_o . Hope to hear something from you soon.

First of all, I never asked you to answer questions...

I know you can't respond regarding things SoaD have done, but I do hope you try.

But anyway, I've got nothing to add to your first dot. I can see that you understand what i mean, and I see no reason why SoaD-town would respond like that about Blue after it isn't useful anymore.

About dot 2, I never said that I didn't believe it. It's possible that it was the case. However, I don't buy it as excuse. Like I said, he made 'his case' against me and CntR after Blue's most known action. Why did he had the time to post 'a case', but not to respond to Blue's action. This also shows that he had the time.
Also, he posted 'his case' at March 8 (my time). He didn't mention anything about his mother until the 29th, saying that his life had been stressfull that week. So how come he didn't mention his mother before that? Here is that post. (Just giving a link in case someone wanted to make a cheer about effort again...)

Third dot, nothing to add again.

The last dot, however, is interesting. His reasons for not defending himself are stated in this post. He didn't even try to defend himself.


Anyway, who are your top suspicion and why?
Do you also have anything to say about things that happened, or not?

[knox]

This is why I shouldn’t post when I’m tired and welcome C_O. Anyway,

For dot two I think he did say that he should have mentioned the stuff about his mum earlier but didn’t but we just won’t know why he didn’t post more.

In the last dot I was referring to that post, in that those reasons might be why he didn’t post more as he was busy and thinking of leaving the game and such.

As for my top suspicions,

CntR – Though it will be interesting to see what happens now he’s been replaced. He was eager to end Day 1 which I think is scummy as more discussion could have taken place and may have resulted in a better lynch. I don’t think its right to base his meta on his first game as generally everyone’s going to be a bit more cautious in their first game, so this is not a reason. He also voted Ash at some stage just to get the game moving, again wanting to get to the next day for no reason and putting Ash at L-1 and this vote was already suss as he had been cautious at the start of the day by only FoS SoaD when he was only L-2. Why the sudden change and I’m not buying I’m more cautious at the start of the game.

Raivann – Throughout the game he has piggybacked onto others ideas and opinions and has often said stuff like I agree with X. He has also done a lot of active lurking by posting things that don’t add to the discussion in the middle of one. He hasn’t really asked many questions but is happy to make jokes and I believe he is trying not to look scummy and to stay under the radar. I find this scummy and suspicious.

Ash – Hammering blue was big time suss and there was no need to do it. Hammering because you couldn’t be bothered to wait for a replacement is not good! This was a scummy move and that is why you are on my list.

Also are you talking about any things in particular?

[Raivann]

@ Zazie-
I think your SoaD case is just as strong as my CntR case, for his not voting Cntr yesterday and for him not trying to defend himself.

I think Ash case is not as strong, because I think he just dropped the hammer too quick.

As for your post 302,

2. That vote of SoaD was during the RVS. His vote against Ash was serious. You're making a very bad comparison here as both votes have a different meaning in the game. Most players don't want to lynch somebody with a random vote. That should explain why he would be afraid of putting SoaD at L-2. There have been games where a lynch has been reached within one or two pages. And that doesn't help town. But when you think somebody is scum, you do want them lynched. Which was apparently the case with Ash.
The only thing I do agree with you is that he should have stated the reasons. Now, it could just be the case of trying to escape the suspicions. But I still believe he's innocent. It only bothers me that he left before responding

CntR first FoS'ed SoaD then Voted for him after being called out. And it was he who said that he is more cautious in the beginning. I think if scum hammered SoaD in RV stage it would be helpful to town.

So as to Cntr's playstyle, we're supposed to believe he's cautious during RV stage then aggressive by voting players he doesn't suspect and erratic too, I think scum makes more sense.

CntR wrote:
1. I'm more cautious during the beginning of the game, but less so later on

like I said, not buying it.

Which brings me to my next point

He also voted Ash at some stage just to get the game moving, again wanting to get to the next day for no reason and putting Ash at L-1 and this vote was already suss as he had been cautious at the start of the day by only FoS SoaD when he was only L-2. Why the sudden change and I’m not buying I’m more cautious at the start of the game.

hmmm who's piggybacking who here?

I've had my own ideas and have posted them.
I know I posted fluff last couple weeks but we were awaiting replacements , I had made my case and voted , and I didn't really know what else to say.
Is it scummy to agree with people?

[Kmd4390]

Sorry Kmd, but I'm not convinced anymore that CntR is scum.

1) The FoS in the RVS when you weren't voting anyone. I saw this as cautious play matching your meta, but that's wrong as you have been more aggressive lately.

2) The fear of putting SoaD at L-2 which is notable because of your L-1 vote on Ash later.

3) Calling out Dennis for lurking when a few others were worse offenders, specifically Mizz.

4) Also quick to jump on the "lurker" who had posted 30 hours before you called him out.

5) Called Mizz a confused townie and then voted Ash 3 posts later with little reasoning.

6) Placed Ash at L-1 with little reasoning. Looks like you want to lynch pretty quickly there.

1. You're basing his meta upon one game. And this is wrong. My first game was NG 646. I tunnelvisioned hard on one player I thought was scum.
My second game was NG 663. Here I looked at everybody at all times, except when I was convinced that a player couldn't be scum.
I was more aggressive in the first game than in the second. But I was town in both games. You can't speak of a meta with one game as most players try to find out what the best approach is.

2. That vote of SoaD was during the RVS. His vote against Ash was serious. You're making a very bad comparison here as both votes have a different meaning in the game. Most players don't want to lynch somebody with a random vote. That should explain why he would be afraid of putting SoaD at L-2. There have been games where a lynch has been reached within one or two pages. And that doesn't help town. But when you think somebody is scum, you do want them lynched. Which was apparently the case with Ash.
The only thing I do agree with you is that he should have stated the reasons. Now, it could just be the case of trying to escape the suspicions. But I still believe he's innocent. It only bothers me that he left before responding.

3. In my opinion, this would have been scummy if he only mentioned the same lurker each time, and forgot about all the others. But this wasn't the case. So I'd like to know why this is scummy to you.

4. Again, what's scummy about this?

5. He indeed said:

Thought that she was mostly a lurker-ish (who could be putting up a newbie pose) player before she left, but at the moment, I

feel

that she

might

just be a confused townie.

He never stated that he was sure about this. But like I already said, he should have given his reasons.

6. This is indeed true. But Ash hammered somebody without ever mentioning Blue, except for the time when he said that he saw CntR as scummier. So what's your opinion of that? And tell me why that's less scummy than what CntR has done.
So in my opinion, the only scummy thing left is him not saying why Ash was scummy to him at that time and not doing so after he was asked.
I think the Ash and SoaD cases are stronger

1. I agree. The meta was the reason I excused his FoS without a vote. I am discrediting the meta and using this point. Your counter-argument actually backs me here.

2. I disagree. The time to be cautious is when a lynch is actually likely. If he put SoaD at L-2, and two players hammered before we could discuss it... Well, let's just say we'd probably have our scum right there. But later, he is very interested in seeing Ash lynched. The biggest reason this is notable is who the players are. If CnT is scum, SoaD is probably his buddy and Ash is probably town. I also don't think he realized Ash had replaced Mizz. Seeing your scumbuddy replaced is something you remember.

So CnTscum=SoaD +scum points, Ash +town points. Remember this if CnT flips scum.

3. Why does an offense have to be repeated to be scummy? And again, if CnT is scum,

I expect Dennis to be town.

(Never mind. Blue replaced Dennis and flipped town. Guess I was right though. )

4. He used a weak argument. Scum use weak arguments to push an easy lynch.

5. Are non-committal stances town tells? This is exactly why I see them as scumtells (and I didn't even catch this one before ). They allow a player to back off of what they said. Or in this case, they allow another player to back off for them. I prefer to look at what was said over how strongly the position is held. He said Mizz may have been a confused townie. That's his stance. Strong or not, that's what he said. Point stands.

6. Yes, Ash is scummier based on this point alone. But the hammer is the only major point against Ash. I have 6 valid points on CnT, which I think is enough to consider him scummier than Ash.

Also, I hope you realize if CnT flips scum, you get scum points for defending him like this.

[ZazieR]

1) The FoS in the RVS when you weren't voting anyone. I saw this as cautious play matching your meta, but that's wrong as you have been more aggressive lately.

My point was that you can't speak about meta from only one game. My point has proven that. You of all players should know that those games don't support my current play if you'd look at them.
Besides, I have seen in other games that newbs (and also SE's) don't want to have a lynch based upon random votes. And I agree with this due to:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 78&start=0
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... postdays=0
In the first game, there were was a lynch reached day 1 first page. There was only one scum on it, and he had the first vote. Game two had a L-1 reached second page. Both scum were already on it as the 2nd and 3rd votes.
Now it's your turn to show me games where one mafia member added his vote to either put a player at L-1 or to hammer a player.
And this gives players a good reason to be careful with bandwagons based upon random votes. So I see nothing wrong with not voting to put someone at L-2 (If I'm correct) using a random vote.
I do agree that it's weird to FoS during the RVS with no random vote, we've already discussed that at the start of this game, but my point is that you can't speak of meta and that it's wrong to use it as an attack in this case.

2. Disagreed on the first part. See the examples above why.
Besides, it's about wanting to see somebody lynched. He didn't want to see SoaD lynched as there wasn't anything against him so far, while later he had suspicions against Ash. It makes sense why he would be careful about his SoaD vote, and not the Ash vote.
Also, Wall-E doesn't agree

3. You explain first. Reflecting a question with a question is duly noted.

4) Also quick to jump on the "lurker" who had posted 30 hours before you called him out.

4. He used a weak argument.

I'm not following you

5. 'Feel' indicates that it's based upon gut. His reason for voting Ash was also based upon gut. Gut changes. Evidence doesn't. If his first stance about Mizz was based upon evidence, then I'd have agreed with you. But gut can change pretty quick, and if anyone knows that, it's me.

6. No, it isn't. I've looked during the time between my practice exam and discussing another one at his previous posts. There were some interesting things.
And I don't agree with your 6 points against CntR. SoaD/Knox is worse, and Ash is looking scummy as well.

Also, I hope you realize if CnT flips scum, you get scum points for defending him like this.

FoS Kmd

I'll get back to this later when that game has finished.


(Will now look at Raivann and knox's posts. I forgot that I needed to respond to those as well, while writing this one)

[ZazieR]

For dot two I think he did say that he should have mentioned the stuff about his mum earlier but didn’t but we just won’t know why he didn’t post more.

It has nothing to do with his mom in the hospital! The point was that he never mentioned Blue. As reason, he said that his mother was being sick.
However, Blue's most known action took place before he posted 'his case'. How come he had time to post something he didn't believe in, instead of posting about Blue's actions?

In the last dot I was referring to that post, in that those reasons might be why he didn’t post more as he was busy and thinking of leaving the game and such.

He said that he couldn't defend himself. It had nothing to do with having time or not. He just didn't try.

[Kmd4390]

Looks like we agree on '1', but you see it as a reason to defend him.

We agree that meta based on one game probably isn't the best thing to use.

But here's where we have different views: My point against CnT was that he FoS'd without voting in the RVS. I wrongly excused that based on another game he played.

Actually. I see what's confusing us:

but my point is that you can't speak of meta and that it's wrong to use it as an attack in this case.

That's not what I was doing. I excused a scumtell based on meta. And I agree with you that it's a bad move. So I posted the scumtell as a point in my case.

2. But what is wrong with adding a little pressure early in Day 1? If we avoided L-2, we'd never get anywhere. And as far as wanting Ash lynched so badly, a lynch can't just happen like that. We need to talk about it, hear opinions, and get a claim.

3. What's wrong with asking a question? Should I have said, "an offense doesn't have to be repeated to be scummy". Same thing. That's just my opinion.

4. He used a very weak argument to attack Dennis for not posting in 30 hours.

5. That is exactly my point. By posting something and not sounding committed to that, you allow yourself to say "Oh, but I never felt that strongly about it anyway." Like if for example, I were to say "Maybe you are scum, but maybe not. I don't really know", can you tell me that wouldn't be scummy?

Off the top of my head, Family Guy. The Internet posted opinions on players. His opinions were all things like "Looks protown, but maybe scum". He didn't commit to a stance all game. He was lynched Day 1 as obvscum.

6. Show me the cases on Ash and SoaD again. I really think CnT is scummier right now though.

FoS for calling out your defense? That's OMGUS and we aren't even in the RVS

[Yaw]

AshKetchummm has been prodded (no posts for 5 days).

[Conspicuous_other]

Conspicuous_other... weren't you replaced recently in 761? What makes you think you have time now?
anyway Knox, Conspicuous hurry up!!! we need you to decide what's happening here.

Spring Break

I'll try to get a post up at the very least by the day after tomorrow, I like to read everything twice before I post.

[Conspicuous_other]

Haha, just my luck to be replacing the most suspected player...

Hoo...

Alright, reading through, there's several things that I'd like to eventually comment on, but before I do, I'd like to bring some attention to something I feel did not get the discussion it deserved, and I really don't see why, and that is the fact that AshKetchummm went for two hammers on two different players. This fact seems to have gone unnoticed by everyone except alexhans

YOU VOTED JUST TO MOVE THE GAME ALONG!!! ARGH!! BETTER KILL A MUTE SUSPICIOUS MAN THAN SEARCH FOR A REPLACEMENT? according to that we should've lynched your predecessor before you arrived...
You have just won a FoS! FoS Ash

Although, I do think that would've warranted a vote from myself.

Other than that...some light questioning about the first hammer and some very light questioning from kmd about the second, and that's it. In fact, this is all ash ever said about the second lynch:

and I guess I should apoligize for dropping the hammer that quick, but there hadn't really been any game discussion for quite a few days beforehand, on then that he should be lynched, so I went and ahead and did it.

He apologized? A person goes for two seperate hammers (the first one being only two posts after another vote, might I add), kills a guy without giving him a chance to respond, and you let him get away with an apology?

Vote: AshKetchummm

[ZazieR]

I'll respond to the rest of your posts later on Kevin, but now that the game's over, I can talk about my FoS against you.
Open 121
I 'defended' Hewitt in this game and attacked somebody else.
In newbie 696, I also didn't support the Raider wagon, and I gave my reasons for that at the start of the game. At the same time, I was attacking Stef and Raz.
Both games show what's happening here as well. You attack a player, I disagree and give reasons why, and add my own suspicions. But in both games, you never stated that it would give me scumpoints. So why's that suddenly the case in this game?

[ZazieR]

I also have a question to Knox. In your list of suspicions, you accuse Raivann of following. Why did you only mention Raivann, and not Ash?
Would you say that SoaD was following? Please state your reasons with your answer to this question.

[ZazieR]

@Ash
After looking back, you noted down SoaD's attempt at humor after he told the joke about the 'mafia scum' title underneath my and Kevin's names.
Later, SoaD posted his 'joke case' against CntR and me. How come you didn't give any comments about that?

I'll give you a chance to rebuttal with a valid reason before I put my vote on you.

Why didn't you wait before he could?

I think this is the hammer vote, and you are most likely going to condemn me for it, but

I think it's in the best interest of the town to get rid of someone who acts scummy, and places votes without any real reason

sooo....

Then come you never mentioned one action of Blue?

So I'm not really sure where to go from here. I believe that Cntr's still very closed to being lynched.

I don't want to drop a bad hammer again

, so I'd like to see some more discussion before I place my vote on him.

I'd like to here more from Cntr, as I think his case right now is much more

importent

then syndromes case.

Elaborate on the bolded please.


I'll get to your question about your 'hammer' post and one more post later on when you've given the answers and explanations.

[ZazieR]

[mrow]

Requested

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Name/Type/Flavor

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Moderator

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Length

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Notes

Apr 16[col]Mini #761[col]X[col]Day 2, 20 pages[col]

One replacement needed for AshKetchummm

Is this game cursed ?

[alexhans]

Zaz your attempt to defend CntR in 302 falls short.
While I agree that one meta isn't enough the other points lack strenght.

That vote of SoaD was during the RVS. His vote against Ash was serious

I want to get this going somewhere, so...

Vote:AshKetchummm

Yeah... Super serious and not scummy at all...

This is indeed true. But Ash hammered somebody without ever mentioning Blue, except for the time when he said that he saw CntR as scummier. So what's your opinion of that? And tell me why that's less scummy than what CntR has done.

Because Ash made only that mistake while CnrT made a whole lot more... Ash has a couple of things against him:
a) his inactivity
b) his hammer without explanations to get the game moving (almost the same scuminess as CnrT who left it at L-1 in the same manner)
c) his inactivity

While I don't like to leave him off the radar I don't feel he deserves a lynch right now. Anyway, I WANT him to post and state his opinions.

Cntr is scummy, we've already been over this, no need to beat a dead horse.

And as we're now talking about the CntR votes of last day, why weren't you one of them?

This IS interesting...

First of all, I never asked you to answer questions...

This is either lame or a joke I guess.

Also, he posted 'his case' at March 8 (my time). He didn't mention anything about his mother until the 29th, saying that his life had been stressfull that week. So how come he didn't mention his mother before that?

Diving into real life is a hard endeavour... We can't know for sure. An excuse isn't needed until they call you out for something...

Regarding What Conspic said I agree that Ash looks scummy. I just find his newbieness a possibility and I'm not willing to lynch him. And less when he is being replaced.

FoS: Conspic

for trying to take heat from him and push a player that cannot respond.

Zaz, KMD... I'm not willing to make metas part of a case on someone... Not to condemn, not to defend. You keep throwing to much games in the open to prove your cases and I simply don't have time or interest to look that way. There's a million different strategies in a million different games.

Both games show what's happening here as well. You attack a player, I disagree and give reasons why, and add my own suspicions. But in both games, you never stated that it would give me scumpoints. So why's that suddenly the case in this game?

This is strecth.

322: mmm Ash is not here and you suddenly start making a case against him... I find this highly suspicious. You know he is being replaced right? Why lay the case now and not when he is here? You have the wish that he is quicklynched now perhaps?