Mini #764: Notre Dame Mafia, Game Over

[charter]

@kast, that's my explanation, if it doesn't fly to you, so be it. I had only considered one particular view, once it was revealed that I was wrong, I just dropped it.

It also lets him appear to be contributing, when he is actually just parroting other players. Is this an accurate representation of your objection?

Yes, this is what I saw that was wrong. Parroting was the word I was looking for.

Overall- I have a much weaker read on Budja after my re-read. Initially, I had an impression that he was asking questions and trying to arrive at conclusions without making poor assumptions. I don't agree with one main point (I don't think there is evidence of buddying with Ace or that ), but it does seem that he may have been trying to avoid stepping on any toes while also instigating others.

This is hard to believe that you don't see buddying.

The reason Ace's "oh shit" could have been a scumslip is that he could have been hiding the fact that he know the mafia could collect 1/4NK together. Such a strong reaction rung false until I saw his next post and explanation.

Buddying or distancing, depends on Ace's alignment, but regardless, this is bad for Budja.

Ace comes off impatient and isn't putting up a good defence but my gut says he is clumsy town now.

Buddying or deflecting, once again depends on Ace, but once again is bad regardless for Budja.

There are more if you want to put a little thought and interpretation into his posts, but these are cut and dry examples. Also, Budja's posts just lack genuine scumhunting.

Haha, just got to 24.

Ace is an easy target. If I was looking for a mislynch, I would be on his wagon now.

Ummmm, how do you know Ace is a mislynch? He was looking like a damn fine lynch until I saw this.

I would like to request numerous votes on Budja.

[Kast]

@CTD-
Next time be more clear; instead of asking "Kast, got any opinion about AceMarkman or Budja?", you should have asked, "Kast, got any opinion about AceMarkman or Budja

but only say the parts that agree with me

?"

@CTD/Charter-
I don't see the buddying. You guys aren't considering context and only reading posts isolation. If I ask you, "you think Ortolan is scum right?" or "why do you think Kinetic is scum", and you respond that you don't think either of them is scum, that is not buddying. Each of your examples of "buddying" look the same.

A post that says, "I don't think Player X is scum" is not necessarily buddying. Discerning whether such a post is actually buddying is often subjective; in Budja's case, each comment was clearly in response to something someone else asked or said.

@Budja-
You avoided actually addressing my point about 11. You claimed to agree with Zwet about Ace appearing suspicious, but you later clarify that your reason is not actually the same as Zwet's reason. You drop the issue after a general consensus is reached (or you feel that way) that Ace's post in question is not a legitimate reason to suspect him.

Regardless of whether you NOW feel like Ace could be an easy mislynch but aren't voting him, AT THE TIME it definitely could be that you were testing the waters and preparing to wagon Ace.

[charter]

Well, I went back and looked at context, Budja just comes off worse and worse. In 11, I saw nothing leading up to that, except for yet another wishy washy post (post 7). Ace's "Oh shit" wasn't a scumtell. It wasn't scummy at all. The fact that after Budja clarifes the mechanic, and then 'agrees' with Zwet seemed pretty bad too.

I have no idea what context you could be talking about for 16. I see it exactly how I described it. I'm not saying that giving opinions willfully or when asked is wrong. I'm saying the opinions he did give came from scum. They weren't opinions at all, just statements to blend in.

Also, Budja's vote for ABR (which seemed to come only after discussion of how he left his RVS vote on for like 14 pages arose) is entirely useless and could have come several pages earlier. No one is going to lynch ABR for being useless when there are actively scummy people that need it. It's just a safe place to lay down a vote, because the reason is valid, but it won't serve any purpose.

[zwetschenwasser]

ABR isn't just being useless, he's being actively antitown by refusing to help us. Why are you dampening the magnitude of his actions?

[Kinetic]

Hi, I'm lurking, I know it. Things piling up. Test due before Friday, Dentist appointment Friday, Grandparents 50th Wedding Anniversary on Saturday.

Ugh.

And this isn't an easy game just to skin, Kast's posts make me want to dig even deeper than I normally do, and his challenges (calling everything I do craplogic) are peeving me to the core.

I can't make a significant contribution until I get these things squared away though. I'm still here, I will catch up. I like my vote for now.

[AceMarksman]

@ kast: your meta of me makes me die a little bit on the inside when I read it. I come off as such a bad player

Anywho quoted for my convinience.

6- I don't understand what "^this" means. It seems like declaration of intent to plague Zwet or possibly ABR. Is this correct?
8- Questioning and badgering Kinetic seems a bit like trying to buddy with me (I admit I may have bias in my analysis). Also, you just expressed a reason why you would use a plague card. It is a bit weird that you can't apply your own reason/thought process to Kinetic-townie doing the same thing. AM's beliefs about vigs makes him sound like a newbie. It is a terrible idea for vigs to announce themselves prior to killing and almost always just as bad to announce their intended target. I think I missed when ABR agreed with this bad strategy/belief.
15,20,30 (others)-I think Ace is reading all of my posts, but I don't think he is understanding everything that I have posted. It also sounds like he is looking for me to "solve" the game. He did this in our other game as well.
26-I think this is an anti-town request to make. I think it is consistent with AM's previously stated (and also anti-town) belief regarding vigilantes.
29-He said almost the exact same thing on Day 1 of our previous game. The town followed it up by lynching my top suspect who turned out to be scum. Ace then began Day 2 by calling for my lynch with primary reason that Kast is clearly the most pro-town player. I think Ace is looking for me to provide a solid/decent case to wagon. I could see both town and scum Ace doing this.
43-I don't think you completely understand what a policy lynch is. Lynching Zwet based on his past meta and/or for behavior that does not indicate that he is scum would be policy lynching. Policy lynches should never take priority over lynching suspected scum. Policy lynches are more acceptable on Day 1 because there is less concrete evidence to indicate that any player is more likely to be scum. Zwet is right to call you out for this.
30 Revisited- This thought is aimed at CTD. I don't get the impression that you claimed at all. He is clearly not advocating Zwet's lynch; he is asking ABR to look elsewhere. The easiest suspicious read I can get from this would be that Ace may be trying to convince his scumbuddy and provide a way for ABR to release pressure on what looks like a stalled Zwet wagon

6-"^this" means "I agree"
8-The plague mechanic is altogether different than the vig mechanic, so I though announcing your kill would be positive.
15,20,30- Your meta is to be very analytical but without synthesising the analysis into a case. I had no reason to believe that this game would be different.
29-again, my meta slaps me in the face.
43-ok

[charter]

Four people posted and no votes for Budja? Disappointing.

[AceMarksman]

You seem to be really set on budja's lynch. This has been noted.

[zwetschenwasser]

@ kast: your meta of me makes me die a little bit on the inside when I read it. I come off as such a bad player

Welcome to my world.

[AceMarksman]

I am nowhere near your world. Kast has only seen one of my games.

[zwetschenwasser]

Whoa! Distancing much?

[AceMarksman]

That was distancing, how?

[zwetschenwasser]

I make a joke and you immediately go "HAEL NAU YOU GET AWAY FROM ME"

[AceMarksman]

what I said was a joke.

But HAEL NAU YOU GET AWAY FROM ME.

[Kast]

Well, I went back and looked at context, Budja just comes off worse and worse. In 11, I saw nothing leading up to that, except for yet another wishy washy post (post 7). Ace's "Oh shit" wasn't a scumtell. It wasn't scummy at all. The fact that after Budja clarifes the mechanic, and then 'agrees' with Zwet seemed pretty bad too.

I agree that 11 is suspicious. That is why I raised that as a suspicious point.

Suspicious =/= buddying. I don't see how you can claim that post 11 is an example of buddying with Ace.

I have no idea what context you could be talking about for 16. I see it exactly how I described it. I'm not saying that giving opinions willfully or when asked is wrong. I'm saying the opinions he did give came from scum. They weren't opinions at all, just statements to blend in.

Again, yes he does appear to be trying to blend in. No disagreement there.

I disagree with you about the point on buddying. Showing that he is trying to blend in with other players is not the same as showing that he is buddying with anyone. I don't see it, and none of your examples of buddying support that claim.

For 16, it is clearly related to 15 where Budja answers Ortolan's direct question about Ace. He completes a thought and follows suit with what others are doing (sharing their thoughts about Ace). The content of his thought sounds very much like trying to avoid ruffling any feathers, but does not seem like buddying.

There are legitimate points against Budja. You don't need to invent fake ones. I think you may be suffering from confirmation bias about the buddying.

Also, Budja's vote for ABR (which seemed to come only after discussion of how he left his RVS vote on for like 14 pages arose) is entirely useless and could have come several pages earlier. No one is going to lynch ABR for being useless when there are actively scummy people that need it. It's just a safe place to lay down a vote, because the reason is valid, but it won't serve any purpose.

Agreed. I don't believe that ABR has been actively scummy (or at least not to the same degree as KidIcarus, Budja, or Charter).

@Kinetic-
I don't like how you (and a few other players) take statements and make them absolutes when they aren't.

You have used some craplogic, and I called you out for that. You have some valid points, and I agreed with those.

I question how you can like your vote when you admitted that you think I am a townie. Was that admission just BS to agree with populartajo?

@Zwet/Ace-
Your dialogue is reminiscent of Zwet's dialogue with his scum buddy Empking in our previous game.

Does anyone (ABR?) have experience with Zwet as scum and holding long two person dialogues? I didn't really notice that in the games ABR linked previously where Zwet was a townie.

[AceMarksman]

The only games I've played with zwet, he was scum, so I don't have any meta to disprove that.

Right now, I'm not liking charter. I've got him as my number one suspect. I'll put together my thoughts on that tomorrow.

[charter]

Argh, I'm not explaining why Budja is scummy very well at all, I apologize. For a day one lynch, they don't get much better than Budja. However, he needs to respond to 350 before I try and clarify, because I think I have some good points against him.

There are legitimate points against Budja. You don't need to invent fake ones. I think you may be suffering from confirmation bias about the buddying.

Yes, I don't think I'm inventing fake points, but I'm probably not explaining why Budja is scum very well. I will try and elaborate after he posts again.

kast, I have a few questions for you. Can you please explain to me how I've been actively scummy in your opinion? Can you tell me if you think I'm scum or town (just a few words)? Can you give just a list of your top three candidates for being scum (not necessarily who you find suspicious, but if their alignment was revealed by the mod, who's would be scum)? Why aren't you voting?

[Rishi]

I know we're not supposed to talk about on-going games, but is it ok to reference games that are ongoing but which I am already dead and the player I comment about in that game is also dead?

I ask because in a recent game someone brought up the same argument as Rishi (that a single player posting a lot prevents other players from being active). To be fair, Rishi has not pushed that as a reason to suspect me (just to hate me ), but I don't want to let that slide and later give him freedom to push a case against me (or any other prolific poster) based on that early statement.

Wow. All I said was that I didn't like the fact that you posted so much, because it added to the amount of reading that I had to do. I, in no way, said that it had anything to do with your alignment in this game. However, your reaction raises an eyebrow. Getting defensive over a non-issue.

@charter – Please respond to my post 224.

I also noticed that ABR has kind of disappeared now that we're not lynching zwet. I somewhat agree that until zwet exhibits anti-town behavior, there's no reason to lynch him in this game. However, if we're going to policy lynch him, I feel like that needs to be done Day 1. My main problem with policy lynches is that they aren't even particularly good sources of information. And, from what I've seen, it doesn't even necessarily dissuade the offending behavior. In any case, it doesn’t look like the wind is blowing that way, so we're probably stuck with zwet for a while.

Oh, and I have a rat.

[ortolan]

rat/NK claims:

I don't have either
Kast has a rat
zwet has a rat
Budja has neither rat or NK
Rishi has rat

Please complete the claims and fill in any I've missed, thanks.

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Hey guys. I'll be the replacement for Slicey.
I briefly skimmed through the game before I replaced into
this, and I was really sure I was replacing scum.
Shows how good my scumhunting is ...
More than 200 posts have gone by since Slicey posted.
Anyways, i'm still re-reading, (on page 10)
but I already feel moved to do this:

Vote: charter

Here's hoping for a good game!
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What did you find scummy about Slicey?

I agree with the notion that ABR insisting on a zwet lynch before he will participate in discussion is clearly anti-town.

8-The plague mechanic is altogether different than the vig mechanic, so I though announcing your kill would be positive.

Yes it's quite different in that the kill is far more readily preventable. So why would you think this would be optimal strategy?

29-again, my meta slaps me in the face

Not really, it seems to be one of the main points against lynching you.

Having thought about plague I believe at this point that, if you're going to use it at all (and it's not necessarily optimal play to use it at all), you should use it night one. Assuming three scum, they only need to get three apothecary cards between them in order to protect fully against plagues (you can replace this with however many scum you think there are), and therefore any pro-town function plagues may have. If plagued night one they will die at the start of day 3, before they've had the chance to use any cards from the second draft. On the first draft scum are less likely to have prioritised apothecary cards but are rather likely, imo, to all be apothecaried by the start of day 4 (after second draft cards can be used). This is why I believe that one should either use plague on night 1, or not at all for the entire game. If used after that I believe the plague is highly likely either to not work or to kill a townie.

[Kast]

@Charter-
-To be clear, the only point that you have raised against Budja that I disagree with and think is a false point, is the claim that Budja is buddying with Ace. If you want to call his general "avoiding stepping on toes" posting style to be buddying with the town, I disagree with your word choice, but I agree that he is exhibiting that behavior.

-Also to be clear, your post regarding 350 means you don't want ANYONE except for Budja to comment on 350 anymore until Budja has done so?

-I find you suspicious for two points.
First, after calling me suspicious and trying to push my lynch, I responded then you said you don't want to argue with me and just disappeared. You came back and said started pursuing other people with little explanation. Your recent posts may be ambiguously clarifying that you changed your mind regarding the initial suspicion of me and mass claiming. I'm not sure. I would like that clarified (except I don't know if you will since you say you don't want to discuss that anymore).

Second, the point that Rishi raised. You abandoned the position that players who claim to have picked "scummy" cards are scummy. You abandoned this position without really discussing or providing any reasons. You just kinda disappeared from the game and when you came back, it was like a whole new Charter with a completely different perspective. Again, you have kinda said you changed your mind, but didn't really give details on that.

-I did provide my top three, and I am voting.

KidIcarus first, then I'd be equally happy with either Budja or Charter. If KidIcarus is replaced, I will have to re-evaluate. I also realize that a KidIcarus lynch is possibly not feasible. If necessary, I will change my vote as we approach deadline to secure one of my other preferred lynches.

@Rishi-
You aren't the only player who expressed negative feelings towards me posting a lot. I wanted to nip that in the bud and not let scum jump on those feelings and push it to a mislynch. The game is over now. Empking pushed that same line of thought and tried to use it to attack me. That game was filled with a lot more active players who did not share the same negative reaction to long posts (in that game they believed that sharing your thoughts is a pro-town thing).

@Ortolan-
Charter has an NK (#3)
Kast has an NK (#3)
Kinetic has an NK (#2)

My understanding/thought is that nobody else has NK cards or wants to (or cares to) share if they do.

-Please clarify. Do you think ABR's anti-town behavior is indicative of alignment?

-If we follow a strategy of townies only or preferentially playing plagues on N1, then scum are free to not play any apothecaries from Draft #2 and #3. This frees them for more night uses of Rat, Plague, (or double/mimic for Rat/Plague), or NK.

It is unlikely that even after two drafts that all scum will be apothecaried. It is more likely that 2 of the three scum will be apothecaried than that 3 of 3 will be. Even then, I think the main concern is targeting. I think townies will have a much better idea of who is scum after information from 2 days of discussion, 2 lynches, and 1 NK, than after 1 day of discussion and 1 lynch.

@Ace-
I think I missed responding to this, but the "Chosen One" of my NK plan should be chosen randomly ideally, or voted on by the town if not chosen randomly. If any of Charter, Kast, KidIcarus, or Kinetic dies before Draft #2, there is no need for a "Chosen One", and we can ensure that every player gets exactly one NK card.

[petroleumjelly]

Day One Vote Count #8

2 AceMarksman (ortolan, CrashTextDummie)
2 charter (Rishi, ZEEnon)
2 Kast (KidIcarus, Kinetic)

1 Albert B. Rampage (Budja)
1 Budja (charter)
1 KidIcarus (Kast)
1 Kinetic (AceMarksman)
1 zwetschenwasser (Albert B. Rampage)

With

12

alive, it takes

7

to lynch and

4

to lynch at deadline. Deadline is April 15, 9:59 pm CDT.

Not Voting – 1 – zwetschenwasser

Yes: if somebody drop from a higher number of votes to be tied for the most votes with another player, the player who had come from having more votes would still be lynched.

[AceMarksman]

Woah, didn't know my vote was still on kinetic.

unvote

Right now, I'm tripped out on hidrocodon for some pain I'm having, so I don't have the mental capacity to formulate a case atm. Sorry.

[zwetschenwasser]

Kast, you apparently have never seen my famous clashes with dejkha. (one lasted for over three pages of back and forth one liner arguing)

[Kast]

@Zwet-
Were you a townie in those clashes?

I most likely will not be checking in again until after Easter.

Budja, please respond to all questions and allegations before you go V/LA.

UNVOTE, VOTE:Budja

I still want KidIcarus to answer further, but in retrospect it does seem like that vote is less effective than one on Budja.

[zwetschenwasser]

Heck yeah I was town!