Newbie 767 - Game Over!

[muzzz]

You asked nicely and got a no. Then you asked again, got another no, and moved on. You're much closer to getting him lynched than getting him to claim.

He already claimed.

But you still say you're asking him to claim.

Why are you ignoring questions directed at you?

[Porkens]

He partially claimed with "I'm a simple ol' townie."

I'd like a

full

claim of "vanilla townie" or "mafia roleblocker" or whatever.

I apologize in advance if this is really obvious, but what questions that have been directed at me, have I ignored?

[delathi]

He partially claimed with "I'm a simple ol' townie."

I'd like a

full

claim of "vanilla townie" or "mafia roleblocker" or whatever.

I apologize in advance if this is really obvious, but what questions that have been directed at me, have I ignored?

As a question of information, why would anyone possibly claim anything other than "vanilla townie" at this point? Claiming scum gets you lynched and claiming power townie gets you night killed.

I don't understand the point of trying to force someone to claim now.

[Porkens]

In most circumstances, it's in the best interest of a town-aligned player to claim honestly, even if it outs themselves as a power role.

Trying to avoid nightkills isn't a good reason to lie about one's own role.

To me this sounds like Porkens is trying to get Wolf to claim some power role, which would help the mafia more than it would help the town. The town already has reduced odds on determining the orientation of a player, so any extra information, be it a true claim or not, will not help the town as much as it would the mafia. If Wolf did claim a power role, town players would not know if he was mafia making a fake claim or not, making the probability of the truth of his claim 1/3 (mafia, townie, power townie). However, the mafia would know for sure that he was town and thus have a 1/2 chance (townie, power townie). So, Porkens, unless you can explain why you think making someone claim will help the town more than the mafia, you have my vote.

If you want to talk about odds, there's an 11% chance that Wolf is actually scum, while there is only a 5.5% chance that he has a town-aligned power role. Of course, the same is true for anyone.

[muzzz]

He partially claimed with "I'm a simple ol' townie."

I'd like a

full

claim of "vanilla townie" or "mafia roleblocker" or whatever.

Whatever. You're still closer to getting him lynched than pretty much

anything

else.

Since you seem intelligent enough, I can only assume that you were aware that the above was my point. So why give that "he already claimed" reply in the first place? Trying to seem like you're addressing comments without actually addressing the points behind them is one of the biggest scumtells I've ever seen.

I apologize in advance if this is really obvious, but what questions that have been directed at me, have I ignored?

You asked nicely and got a no. Then you asked again, got another no, and moved on. You're much closer to getting him lynched than getting him to claim.

Yeah, I'm confident enough. Are you?

Porkens, do you think it would make sense if me or PlatypusDude now voted for you, asked you to claim, and justified it the same way you have been doing?

You'll note that I included an extra paragraph with my question. I wanted to point out that the distance between what you half-answered and what you ignored was a whopping single line. All of this, plus the hiding reasons, makes me you my #1 mafia suspect at the time. And Wolf being at L-1 seems to have lost it's interest to most people. So...

Unvote: Wolf
Vote: Porkens

Let's see if being at L-1 makes Porkens talk. I'm not really interested in a claim, although I would like to hear those "reasons" for voting Wolf.

[Platypus_Dude]

unvote: Ethan

He's just as likely newbie town as newbie scum (IMO).

I don't understand the point of trying to force someone to claim now.

You were one of the people making him claim. Is there a reason you're voting him?

I'm not really interested in a claim, although I would like to hear those "reasons" for voting Wolf.

Would you like him to be lynched without a claim?

[delathi]

I don't understand the point of trying to force someone to claim now.

You were one of the people making him claim. Is there a reason you're voting him?

I left my vote there because I wanted to hear the reasons and debate.

Unvote : Wolf

[Korlash]

Let's see if being at L-1 makes Porkens talk. I'm not really interested in a claim, although I would like to hear those "reasons" for voting Wolf.

...

Unvote:

I'm getting a little tired of wagons reaching this stage with holes in them. The first time it was to see a guy claim without reason and now it has reason but no interest in a claim.

I left my vote there because I wanted to hear the reasons and debate.

So you vote someone in order to hear other's reasons and debates? Where was your reasons? Where were your debates? You don't leave a vote just to watch other people discuss it. If you vote someone you better back it up with reasons and force discussion to come from it yourself, not watch other people do it.

[muzzz]

I'll address these two comments together:

Would you like him to be lynched without a claim?

I'm getting a little tired of wagons reaching this stage with holes in them. The first time it was to see a guy claim without reason and now it has reason but no interest in a claim.

First of all, I used to play mafia on another forum. We always did role reveals on lynch there. I'm getting the impression that's not the case on MS, so maybe I need some time to adjust to that.

Other than that, I'd love to know Porkens' role, of course. But as I've explained before, I don't see how he'd

claim

anything but vanilla townie. So no, I'm not really interested in him saying something I already figured.

As for him getting lynched: I could definitely live with it. I'd love more information just as much as the next guy. But if we're not getting that, well, I've made first-day-lynched with less evidence.

@Korlash: I didn't notice anyone asking Porkens to claim before my vote. Why is that suddenly bothering you?

[muzzz]

EBWOP: first-day-lynched -> first-day-lynches

[delathi]

In most circumstances, it's in the best interest of a town-aligned player to claim honestly, even if it outs themselves as a power role.

Trying to avoid nightkills isn't a good reason to lie about one's own role.

I am trying to think of any scenario where that could possibly be true.
How does identifying a power townie on day one, before they can do anything useful, possibly help the town?

It would be an almost guaranteed night kill for them and then deprive the town of it's most useful weapons.

How is this pro-town?

[delathi]

I left my vote there because I wanted to hear the reasons and debate.

So you vote someone in order to hear other's reasons and debates? Where was your reasons? Where were your debates? You don't leave a vote just to watch other people discuss it. If you vote someone you better back it up with reasons and force discussion to come from it yourself, not watch other people do it.

If you look back, my original vote for Wolf was random. Then more piled on top of it and then you and Porkens started going toe to toe. I figured I'd learn more about how the game is played by watching that conversation for a while than unvoting immediately and removing the cause of the argument. Especially since it didn't look, to me, like anyone was going to throw the final vote on Wolf.

[Korlash]

@Korlash: I didn't notice anyone asking Porkens to claim before my vote. Why is that suddenly bothering you?

... Becuase you were the guy that put him at L-1 which I assumed meant you didn't mind his lynch (which your new posts confirms) so not wanting him to claim but still being alright with his lynch is wrong.

I am trying to think of any scenario where that could possibly be true.
How does identifying a power townie on day one, before they can do anything useful, possibly help the town?

It would be an almost guaranteed night kill for them and then deprive the town of it's most useful weapons.

How is this pro-town?

If a power role claims vanilla on day one, then later says he lied and is actually a cop or something no one will believe him and he will almost certainly be lynched. If a power role lies it will most likely end in not only his death but also a mislynch, where-as if he were to claim we would at least save the mislynch.

If you look back, my original vote for Wolf was random. Then more piled on top of it and then you and Porkens started going toe to toe. I figured I'd learn more about how the game is played by watching that conversation for a while than unvoting immediately and removing the cause of the argument. Especially since it didn't look, to me, like anyone was going to throw the final vote on Wolf.

... just becuase your vote was random doesn't justify leaving it on a wagon you dont agree with. And unvoting would not remove the cause of the discussion. What someone did doesn't disapear just becuase someone else unvotes.

[muzzz]

[...] so not wanting him to claim but still being alright with his lynch is wrong.

Just so we're clear on this: I certainly wouldn't mind a claim from him. But I can live with just a lynch if I have to.

Also, I don't think I get your point. Could you explain why you think I should want my lynch-candidate to claim?

[muzzz]

... just becuase your vote was random doesn't justify leaving it on a wagon you dont agree with. And unvoting would not remove the cause of the discussion. What someone did doesn't disapear just becuase someone else unvotes.

If I had unvoted Wolf early, he might never have gotten to L-1. Heck, it might even have let another wagon gain momentum. Who knows. Facts don't change, but people's perception of them certainly does. In a way, I think that's exactly what your signature says.

[Phelan]

First of all, I used to play mafia on another forum. We always did role reveals on lynch there. I'm getting the impression that's not the case on MS, so maybe I need some time to adjust to that.

Really?
I had the impression that MS had role reveals on lynch, at least on newbie games.
I used to play without role reveals, so I was trying to adjust.

Korlash, Porkens, which one is it?

[Phelan]

Porkens, while I don't agree with putting you at L-1, I think that now that the Wolf wagon has lost interest, you should tell us what you were doing.

[Phelan]

Archaist, just reread the thread, and you never voted in the random voting stage, nor did you vote for Ethan when you found him suspicious. Why?

[Archaist]

Archaist, just reread the thread, and you never voted in the random voting stage, nor did you vote for Ethan when you found him suspicious. Why?

I didn't random vote because by the time I posted in this game some stuff had already happened. I felt that a random vote in light of the growing wagon on Wolf would be inappropriate. Why random vote when there is actual content growing? At that point questioning players is more productive than random voting. Certainly, I found Ethan a bit suspicious, but not enough to merit a vote. I found Porkins far more suspicious, as I mentioned in my post #82.

[Porkens]

Why I put Wolf at L-1

Primarily, my attempt here was to illicit some specific reactions.

Results

Prior to my action;

• Archaist had showed dismay at Wolf being at L-2.
• Delathi had been cavalier.
• Ethan had hinted at "concealed reasons."
• Muzzz, on the other hand, being the first to 'random' vote for Wolf started pressing in with psudo-case material (the whole LAL business).
• Korlash had been playing the analytic.
• Platypus was against the lynch entirely, but was very careful to say that Ethan wasn't scummy for putting Wolf at L-2.

What actually set me off was Korlash's "It's all hypothetical, anyway, so there's no need to talk of claiming."

Then I voted.

• Wolf, as I have said, reacted poorly to being at L-1. He did claim, yes, which is what town should do, but the "poor little 'ol townie" me is a plea to emotion, plain and simple.
• Korlash got into it with me, which I both admire and appreciate. But, some of what he said was contradictory. In 48 he basically said only scum would put Wolf at L-1 or hammer. But in 60 he says he doesn't think I'm scum.
• delathi didn't contradict himself, and remained cavalier about leaving Wolf at L-1.
• Archaist remained consistent, and questioned me appropriately. And voted for me, good show.
• Platypus remains solidly on the fence.
• Muzzz didn't jump off the wagon right away, even though he doesn't seem to like it.
• Phelan finally jumps in, with reasonable questions to both me and Ethan.
• I do NOT understand nor like Platypus_Dude's unvote of Ethan. There was nothing that transpired (and no posts by Ethan) that would warrant the change in opinion.
• Korlash gains some consistency by unvoting me.

Conclusions

Delathi

was cavalier and consitant, but might have been hoping for some kind of stupid hammer.

Ethan

hinted at concealed reasons, which he hasen't given. Now's the time.

Wolf

reacted badly, he could actually be scum, but I kinda doubt it.

Platypus

sat on the fence, and then unvoted Ethan for no reason. Scum.

Phelan

is lurking. Post moar.

Scum Picks:

Platypus and Ethan, with backups of Wolf and/or Phelan.

Unvote, Vote: Platypus

---

claiming on day 1

There are reasons why the mafia would leave, say, a doctor alive. Or a cop. It creates WIFOM and uncertainty in the town, which is what the scum wants. On another side of it; if someone claims vanilla day 1, and then comes out day 2 with a cop report, then the town has to deal with that lie, in some way.

Role-Reveals

All newbie games here have open role-flips. We will know what someone was once they are dead.

[Platypus_Dude]

I've read games where townies put someone at L-2 on page 2, so I don't consider Ethan voting wolf to L-2 a scumtell.

Ethan did something that I find as a null-tell. Also, my vote on him was a random vote.

but was very careful to say that Ethan wasn't scummy for putting Wolf at L-2.

I merely stated that it was a null-tell. His not being here is a null-tell as well. If he was avoiding the question, I would find it suspicious.

Platypus remains solidly on the fence.

Just because I didn't vote you when you did something anti-town doesn't make me 'on the fence'.

I agree with most of what you said except for the stuff about me and your conclusions of delathi and Phelan. I find delathi more suspicious and Phelan as a lurking townie. What was your conclusion of Muzzz?

[Korlash]

Korlash got into it with me, which I both admire and appreciate. But, some of what he said was contradictory. In 48 he basically said only scum would put Wolf at L-1 or hammer. But in 60 he says he doesn't think I'm scum.

I'm too lazy to check it out but I'm almost willing to bet this isn't the case. i believe I was responding to someone else who said scum could quick lynch, and thus that would have meant the L-1 and hammer were scum...

... now I'ms econd guessing myself, I guess I'll look...

Ye my 48 was in responces to Plat's "Only scum would want the day over on page 2" and so that part of it was the hypothetical revolving around that statement.

Also, I don't think I get your point. Could you explain why you think I should want my lynch-candidate to claim?

If you are town you should want the person about to lynch to have the ability to give his claim for some pretty obvious reasons. The first being he could be a power role. No town should want to lynch a power role without at least knowing that he is one. The second being that as town you can't know anything about the lynchee's role, and so in order to make an accurate dicission with your vote you will need his input, and lasty as town you would want to give him the same opprotunity you yourself would expect. Woud you like to be lynched without being given the chance to claim? Would you want someone to vote you and not care what you were to claim?

And of course if you are scum you want to appear town, and so you would need to follow this as well.

If I had unvoted Wolf early, he might never have gotten to L-1. Heck, it might even have let another wagon gain momentum. Who knows. Facts don't change, but people's perception of them certainly does. In a way, I think that's exactly what your signature says.

... Sort of... My signiture is actually about how it's fine to be right as long as everything you say is true and supported well. But whatever, tomato potatoe.

And... why is it you care so much about people getting to L-1?

What actually set me off was Korlash's "It's all hypothetical, anyway, so there's no need to talk of claiming."

I'm glad I have the ability to inspire people.

[muzzz]

If you are town you should want the person about to lynch to have the ability to give his claim for some pretty obvious reasons. The first being he could be a power role. No town should want to lynch a power role without at least knowing that he is one. The second being that as town you can't know anything about the lynchee's role, and so in order to make an accurate dicission with your vote you will need his input, and lasty as town you would want to give him the same opprotunity you yourself would expect. Woud you like to be lynched without being given the chance to claim? Would you want someone to vote you and not care what you were to claim?

I get your point insofar as that someone should have a

chance

to claim. But IMO, that chance is pretty much their first post after serious pressure. If they decide not to take the chance, is it wrong to continue with a lynch?

And... why is it you care so much about people getting to L-1?

I just picked it as an example since it seemed at least somewhat connected to the discussion.

---

I find Porkens' last post interesting. The fact that it contains more facts than explanations rubs me the wrong way. I need to think on this more.

[Phelan]

Thanks Archaist, that makes sense.

Why I put Wolf at L-1

Primarily, my attempt here was to illicit some specific reactions.

I was expecting it to be this, although I wasn't expecting something to have set you off.
I was also thinking you could be trying to get a newbie scum to hammer, although that wouldn't be very IC. That of course had the problem that someone who hammered would just be a proven newbie, not proven scum.
Thanks for the analysis. I still have one question, though:

Muzzz, on the other hand, being the first to 'random' vote for Wolf started pressing in with psudo-case material (the whole LAL business).

Muzzz didn't jump off the wagon right away, even though he doesn't seem to like it.

These two seem inconsistent. Why no conclusion on Muzz?

Phelan

is lurking. Post moar.

I probably won't be able to post more often than once or twice per day due to my college workload, but I'll try to post more when I do.

Role-Reveals

All newbie games here have open role-flips. We will know what someone was once they are dead.

Ok, thanks.

Also, Ethan, are you still with us?

[muzzz]

@Ethan: who do you think we should lynch today?
@Porkens: what's your perception of Korlash? Are you aware that you still haven't answered those two questions we discussed earlier?
@Korlash: is Porkens scum? If not, who is?
@Platypus_Dude: if I understood you correctly, you haven't made a serious vote yet. Why not?