Newbie 767 - Game Over!

[Korlash]

1) Explain this semantic difference please.

Just because I mistakenly put a 2 instead of a three doesn't change my point that putting a guy at L-1 on that page and asking him to claim without any reason is bad on your part. Strawmaning the fact i put int he wrong number to ignore whatever point I was making is not a semantic difference.

2) You don't count votes as attacks?

... No becuase there is nothing to defend against. Attacks are ways to justify votes and produce reasons. Such as saying wahtsoemone did was scummy, explaining how, etc, that is an attack. I suppose if you wanted to argue that votes are attacks I will change my statement to "there is obviouslysomething wrong if he reached L-1 without a single good attack or justified vote" and represent it.

5) Whether he is hammered oor not is...how did you put it..."hypothetical." But, if he is, information will be gained. Do you disagree? As to your question on this number: no, I don't think so.

... What information? The only possible information we can conclude is that you and whoever hammers him are the most likely scum and that the rest of the town are idiots. Not really seeing how this is good information to you.

6) I was asking a question, for you to answer.

A question which carried an implication about what I previously said. I in no way ever said I would have hammered him no matter who put him at L-1 so asking the question in the way you did seemed like you are implying I in some way made refence to me personally hammering him... I lost myself...

And no, I wouldn't have hammered him for any reason becuase there is no reason to think he is scum.

I'm asking you to go ahead and tell us why your self-vote wasn't anti-town (or, as I said pro-town).

Something that is no pro-town does not automatically become anti-town. They are not an either or situation. There are plenty of things that are neutral and effect neither side equally. Self votes are inheriently a netural action. They are neither pro-town or anti-town on their own. There are specific situations in which a self vote may fall into one of those categories but the RVS is not one of them. I have had this conversations... like every freaking game... it's getting a little old.

Then why are you voting for me?

Becuase you need some sense knocked into you. And I also really enjoy this conversation we are having as it is helping me get to know you... Of course I also usually like to put a vote on the other IC tohelp keep them in check but at this point that actually isn't a reason I'm doing it... interesting...

Nope, you were not talking about my reason for asking you to claim. See below (bolded):

Actually this is false. In the quote he quoted you said "claim please" and he believes your reason for voting him to be to make him claim. Thusly he is talking about your reason in the post you quoted.

However, that can't actually be the real reason. So if you wouldn't mind actually telling us what the reason for your vote was... thanks...

Meanwhile, you still haven't explained what you think my reasoning (for putting you at L-1) is.

Interesting.. I think I see what you are talking about here... however this seems like a great time to pull a line out of my hat...

"And neither have you!"

It's kinda a lame move asking someone else to tell you your own reasonings for something. What, do you not have one? you need him to give you some ideas? Fishing for reasons from the guy you are voting... sad man...

Scummy opening line.

... No it isn't..

OMGUS.

... No it isn't...

Appeal to emotion.

... Sure but a guy who reaches L-1 on page three should be given a little lee-way or this. it's kinda hard not to resort to some emotion when this situation occurs.

Regardless of all this your last your points happened AFTER you voted... So you voted him, put him at L-1, asked him to claim... all for his not scummy opening line?

You're a sad strange little man Porky...

[Korlash]

I should learn to spell check... hmmm... Well I think you guys can figure that out...

[Porkens]

1) Explain this semantic difference please.

Just because I mistakenly put a 2 instead of a three doesn't change my point that putting a guy at L-1 on that page and asking him to claim without any reason is bad on your part. Strawmaning the fact i put int he wrong number to ignore whatever point I was making is not a semantic difference.

It's not a strawman if it really happened. You were the one who brought up the difference between point and statement. I didn't ignore your point, I said it was factually inaccurate.

2) You don't count votes as attacks?

... No becuase there is nothing to defend against. Attacks are ways to justify votes and produce reasons. Such as saying wahtsoemone did was scummy, explaining how, etc, that is an attack. I suppose if you wanted to argue that votes are attacks I will change my statement to "there is obviouslysomething wrong if he reached L-1 without a single good attack or justified vote" and represent it.

Why aren't you going after the other 3 unjustified votes?

5) Whether he is hammered oor not is...how did you put it..."hypothetical." But, if he is, information will be gained. Do you disagree? As to your question on this number: no, I don't think so.

... What information? The only possible information we can conclude is that you and whoever hammers him are the most likely scum and that the rest of the town are idiots. Not really seeing how this is good information to you.[/quote]

So the

only

information you would draw would be to catch me and the hammerer as scum? Why is that bad, in your opinion?

6) I was asking a question, for you to answer.

A question which carried an implication about what I previously said. I in no way ever said I would have hammered him no matter who put him at L-1 so asking the question in the way you did seemed like you are implying I in some way made refence to me personally hammering him... I lost myself...

I can't control how you "seem" to read "implications" from my straight-forward question.

And no, I wouldn't have hammered him for any reason becuase there is no reason to think he is scum.

In what situation would you have changed your attitude?

I'm asking you to go ahead and tell us why your self-vote wasn't anti-town (or, as I said pro-town).

Something that is no pro-town does not automatically become anti-town. They are not an either or situation. There are plenty of things that are neutral and effect neither side equally. Self votes are inheriently a netural action. They are neither pro-town or anti-town on their own. There are specific situations in which a self vote may fall into one of those categories but the RVS is not one of them. I have had this conversations... like every freaking game... it's getting a little old.

So your intent was to come off as "neutral" with your self-vote?

Then why are you voting for me?

Becuase you need some sense knocked into you. And I also really enjoy this conversation we are having as it is helping me get to know you... Of course I also usually like to put a vote on the other IC tohelp keep them in check but at this point that actually isn't a reason I'm doing it... interesting...

Interesting...

Nope, you were not talking about my reason for asking you to claim. See below (bolded):

Actually this is false. In the quote he quoted you said "claim please" and he believes your reason for voting him to be to make him claim. Thusly he is talking about your reason in the post you quoted.

There is some incongruity in the two Wolf posts I referred to, but I'm willing to concede that the "reasons" he referred to may have been, in his mind at least, about the same thing.

However, that can't actually be the real reason. So if you wouldn't mind actually telling us what the reason for your vote was... thanks...

Not just yet.

Meanwhile, you still haven't explained what you think my reasoning (for putting you at L-1) is.

Interesting.. I think I see what you are talking about here... however this seems like a great time to pull a line out of my hat...

"And neither have you!"

It's kinda a lame move asking someone else to tell you your own reasonings for something. What, do you not have one? you need him to give you some ideas? Fishing for reasons from the guy you are voting... sad man...

Wolf said my reasons for putting him at L-1 were obvious. I want to know what he thinks they are.

Scummy opening line.

... No it isn't..

OMGUS.

... No it isn't...

They are in my opinion/experience.

Appeal to emotion.

... Sure but a guy who reaches L-1 on page three should be given a little lee-way or this. it's kinda hard not to resort to some emotion when this situation occurs.

No one gets lee-way when they say, paraphrasing; "I'm just a poor little townie."

Regardless of all this your last your points happened AFTER you voted... So you voted him, put him at L-1, asked him to claim... all for his not scummy opening line?

No sir.

You're a sad strange little man Porky...

[Korlash]

It's not a strawman if it really happened. You were the one who brought up the difference between point and statement. I didn't ignore your point, I said it was factually inaccurate.

I made a point, you said the statement was wrong, I said the point still stood, you said it didn't because the statements didn't match. That is a strawman, discounting my point becuase I put in the wrong number.

Why aren't you going after the other 3 unjustified votes?

3 reasons. 1 being none of them actually asked him to claim, that has been a big deal in my attacks on you. Two being they aren't as active as you are right now so it wouldn't be as much fun. And three being becuase you were the L-1 vote so it is more important that it has a good reason.

But you are right, I should and will go after them in time.

So the only information you would draw would be to catch me and the hammerer as scum? Why is that bad, in your opinion?

I never called it bad. I think it's great. I'm questioning how you can trust the credibility of information that makes you scum though.

In what situation would you have changed your attitude?

I already included some example hypothetical situations in which I would change my attitude.

So your intent was to come off as "neutral" with your self-vote?

No. My intent was to make a "random" vote. But it isn't really random as I do it in all my games.

Not just yet.

... Not ok. Stop holding information that has been asked of you from the town.

They are in my opinion/experience.

You can have the first point. If it's your experience I won't argue it. I don't find it scummy though if it's any concelation to you.

However there is no way in hell you can call his vote OMGUS becuase it isn't.

No one gets lee-way when they say, paraphrasing; "I'm just a poor little townie."

I'm tempted to agree... But I've seen it a number of times from newbie town... It's not something I can base anything on...

[Wolf]

Korlash, while I am grateful that you're defending me, to my untrained eye it seems that you're trying alittle too hard. An IC should know better, since a town do not know what role others are, you gain nothing by helping me, and it would seem slightly suspicious to others so you could be framing me. I know this comes off as a jerk, so I apologise. I genuinely hope you aren't offended by this, but IGMEOY. Again, I'm sorry.

[Korlash]

... I haven't defended you anywhere... all I've done is attack Porkens first for his reasonless vote and unjustified cry for you to claim and then for strawmans and misunderstandings.

And I take no offense in it. My stle of play is to attack the cases and attacks (and votes aparently...) of others. This often means I look like I am defending the person who was being attacked. I suppose I am to a degree, but not intentionally and the level of defense that comes from it is unavoidable. It is impossible for me to attack Porken's bad vote on you wthout in some way appearing to defend you.

That seems like a long drawn out explination but much like the self-vote thing it is an attack I see often and so I have had some practice in dealing with it.

More to the point, not knowing your role doesn't mean I want you to claim, and it definitly doesn't mean I'll sit by and let people bully you with baseless false attacks either. And I don't see how me gaining anything should matter when it comes to the town. I don't do things based on whether or not I get paid so to speak. Any bad case, vote, attack, or post that slips by unchecked is detrimental to the town, so I will do my best to stop it.

Lastly, don't appologize so much. The whole "I hope you aren't offended" thing might fly but cut out the "I'm Sorry" stuff. This is a game of part deception so you don't want to make people think you have a guilty conscience. You definitly don't want people to think your soft either. In this game, litterally, confidence is key. If you project a strong confident image in everything you post the stuff you say will sound better. Hell, you might even get people a little afraid of you which is always good. As with all my adivce you can take it or leave it, I don't care.

[Wolf]

Lastly, don't appologize so much. The whole "I hope you aren't offended" thing might fly but cut out the "I'm Sorry" stuff. This is a game of part deception so you don't want to make people think you have a guilty conscience. You definitly don't want people to think your soft either. In this game, litterally, confidence is key. If you project a strong confident image in everything you post the stuff you say will sound better. Hell, you might even get people a little afraid of you which is always good. As with all my adivce you can take it or leave it, I don't care.

Thanks for the advice, I will take note of it.

[Archaist]

First, to answer Korlash: The thing I saw wrong with Ethan's vote was that he seemed to be creating a bandwagon in the random stage. No, I don't expect reasons in the random stage, but that can only go so far. Once a player seems to be creating or adding onto a bandwagon I expect some reasons, of which Ethan gave none. That was not nearly as suspicious as this however:

Sorry guys, the timezone in my area is GMT +8, so I'll be posting at weird times compared to you guys.

vote: Wolf

Claim, please.

I'm not convinced by your reason to put me (or anyone) at L -1 at this stage of the game. Its obvious what you're trying to do! Of couse the accused is gonna claim town in this situation, regardless of his allegiance. That being said, I'm town through and through!

Unvote

,

vote porkens

.

You don't even know what my reason is. How could you be convinced of it? How could I convince you?

What am I trying to do? State it.

Full claim, please.

To me this sounds like Porkens is trying to get Wolf to claim some power role, which would help the mafia more than it would help the town. The town already has reduced odds on determining the orientation of a player, so any extra information, be it a true claim or not, will not help the town as much as it would the mafia. If Wolf did claim a power role, town players would not know if he was mafia making a fake claim or not, making the probability of the truth of his claim 1/3 (mafia, townie, power townie). However, the mafia would know for sure that he was town and thus have a 1/2 chance (townie, power townie). So, Porkens, unless you can explain why you think making someone claim will help the town more than the mafia, you have my vote.

Vote: Porkens

[Platypus_Dude]

Ok, this is the oddest game I've been in. Korlash and Porkens made a full page of stuff for me to read. Yay.

delathi: While wolf may not be in danger of being lynched to you, you're still forcing him to claim over nothing. I also don't think you know all the players very well, so I don't think you should be so sure of that.

I do agree with archaist and Korlash that Porkens shouldn't be forcing wolf to claim.

FoS (Finger of Suspicion): Porkens

I'm going to fully read the Korlash and Porkens interaction later.

[muzzz]

Indeed, I'm new to mafia, so yes, I'm advocating LAL with no experience whatsoever. What do you mean by or...?

... or one of those statements was an outright lie.

---

Porkens isn't trying to get Wolf to claim. If he was, he'd be pressuring Wolf, not arguing with Korlash. He almost makes it look like he has some elaborate, god-complex-induced ploy going on. But I doubt that the mods here would pick a player who hasn't progressed past that stage as an IC.

Previous experience tells me that when two players go wall-o'-text vs. wall-o'-text, one of them is probably scum. I've half a mind to vote Porkens at this point. But I'm going to take a little more time before I decide.

---

The case against Porkens notwithstanding, it

is

interesting that Wolf didn't choose the easy way out. It seems to me that a simple townie claim would've taken the wind out of Porkens proverbial sails.

[Platypus_Dude]

Porkens isn't trying to get Wolf to claim.

Claim, please.

Full claim, please.

Did you miss these?

I've done a townie vs. townie argument twice in one game.

[muzzz]

[snip]The town already has reduced odds on determining the orientation of a player, so any extra information, be it a true claim or not, will not help the town as much as it would the mafia. If Wolf did claim a power role, town players would not know if he was mafia making a fake claim or not, making the probability of the truth of his claim 1/3 (mafia, townie, power townie). However, the mafia would know for sure that he was town and thus have a 1/2 chance (townie, power townie).[snip]

False, false, and false.

First of all, claiming a powerrole at this point would be stupid. There are no accusations of suspicious behaviour that could be explained by being the cop or doctor. The most likely claim for anyone (possibly excepting mafia, of course) at this point is vanilla townie.

Also, as you said, the mafia have more information than the townies have. Claims are one way in which the town can catch up. A single claim might not contribute that much, but a few of those together can make or break the game. After all, claiming is pretty much the only area in which mafia are

guaranteed

to lie.

@Porkens: yeah, I'm dismissing those. Surely you can do better at pressuring someone than that.

[muzzz]

EBWOP: that last sentence should've been "@Plat:". I saw his post in preview, and seeing the contents, mistakenly assumed it was from Porkens.

[Platypus_Dude]

Wolf is at L-1. I think that constitutes as pressure.

[Wolf]

.. or one of those statements was an outright lie.

I'm assuming by statements you mean the 2 posts where I said I'm new to mafia and I advocate LAL with no experience. Neither are lies, its just that I've read the other games quite a fair bit.

The case against Porkens notwithstanding, it is interesting that Wolf didn't choose the easy way out. It seems to me that a simple townie claim would've taken the wind out of Porkens proverbial sails.

I'm sure a mafia would rather lie low as oppose to posting much to avoid making mistakes. I went the "long" way because I had a case against Porkens, I just find it suspicious putting anyone at L -1 just to make him claim. Why wouldn't anyone claim vanilla town as this stage of the game?

[Korlash]

Wolf is at L-1. I think that constitutes as pressure.

What is Wolf suppose to say or do? Not a single person has actually presented him a thing to defend against, so what good is L-1 pressure? You can't pressure someone without giving him something to feel pressured about.

What would you do if you were at L-1 and no one told you why?

[Claus]

Vote Count

Hope you are enjoying your inflight entertainment system.



In a few moments, we will start serving lunch for today's flight.

Wolf 4 - Muzzz, Delathi, Ethan, Porkens
Porkens 3 - Korlash, Wolf, Archaist
Ethan 1 - Platypus_Dude
Platypus_Dude 1 - Phelan

With 9 people alive, it takes 5 to lynch!

[Porkens]

1)I never dismissed your point! But whatEVER; you were

trying

to say that it was somehow 'too early in the game' to put Wolf at L-1. I don't agree.

2) Wow, so me being active is one of the reasons to give me heat? Promote lurking more! Naw just kidding, I understand.

3) "How I (Porkens) can trust the credibility of information that makes me scum." That took a bit to process, I won't lie (not because it isn't well written). I suppose you're being quite considerate here, actually.

4) Ah, you did include examples, my mistake.

5) Oh, so you do self-vote as scum?

6) "stop withholding information from the town" is quite a way to put it. I'm doin' something here, give me a bit.

7) Potayto Potahto

[Porkens]

Oh god, other people posted.

I am absolutely asking him to claim; there's no denying that!

Muzz, you seem fine with Wolf being at L-1, are you so confident in your initial vote?

[Korlash]

Not that I'm ignoring the other points but I don't think theres much to comment on with those..

5) Oh, so you do self-vote as scum?

Yes, I believe I did it in death note. But I also self vote as town, which I believe newbie 700 is an example of that. So in other words I do it as either scum or town, which only helps serve my point that it's a neutral action either way.

6) "stop withholding information from the town" is quite a way to put it. I'm doin' something here, give me a bit.

But it makes me feel left out ;_;

But when it comes to claiming I really do like to see some reasons why, and as you are the only person to actually admit having them in such a way as to make it look like a real reason I'd much like to hear it.

[muzzz]

Wolf is at L-1. I think that constitutes as pressure.

Apparently he disagrees, since he's been there for a while and still doesn't show any inclination to claim.

I'm sure a mafia would rather lie low as oppose to posting much to avoid making mistakes.
[snip]
Why wouldn't anyone claim vanilla town as this stage of the game?

Lying low is usually a crappy idea at L-1. And since you haven't claimed vanilla townie, why don't you give us your answer to that question?

I am absolutely asking him to claim; there's no denying that!

Muzz, you seem fine with Wolf being at L-1, are you so confident in your initial vote?

You asked nicely and got a no. Then you asked again, got another no, and moved on. You're much closer to getting him lynched than getting him to claim.

Yeah, I'm confident enough. Are you?

[Phelan]

Just finished going through the two pages. If I missed something, or got something wrong, let me know.

I also think it's suspicious to put someone at L-1 without no reason, especially with justifications that seem to be circular logic.
Porkens, do you think it would make sense if me or PlatypusDude now voted for you, asked you to claim, and justified it the same way you have been doing?

Despite that, I don't have enough info to think he's scum, and I think I see what he is trying to do.

I'd still like to read Ethan's reasons (if there were any) to vote Wolf.

[Phelan]

Edit by way of post: without no reason -> without reason.

[Platypus_Dude]

What is Wolf suppose to say or do? Not a single person has actually presented him a thing to defend against, so what good is L-1 pressure? You can't pressure someone without giving him something to feel pressured about.

He's supposed to persuade others that someone else is scummier.

[Porkens]

You asked nicely and got a no. Then you asked again, got another no, and moved on. You're much closer to getting him lynched than getting him to claim.

He already claimed.