Mini 761 - Game Over

[Jazzmyn]

jazzmyn: I appreciate your thoughtful analysis, but I need to correct you: I am not "defending/protecting" Zachrulez in any way, shape, or form. I haven't seen anything from him to make me especially suspicious, but I could say the same of numerous players here.

On re-read, you're right - the defending/protecting between you and Zach was one directional from him to you, rather than mutual. My apologies.

@Wall-E: I can barely make sense of what you're thinking anymore. I can't tell who you really think is scummy other than the person you're voting for, and to admit that you've been intentionally acting scummy just shows to me that you have extremely poor reasoning. If you act scummy, wouldn't you expect everyone to call you on it, and not just scum? How is that beneficiary to the town? Besides, *if* you're town, you're wasting our day phase by focusing on somebody who acts scummy but isn't. I hope you either shape up or something cause in the off chance that you are town you're making it extremely difficult on us.

My guess is now that Wall-E has some pressure on him, he's decided to set up a fake claim and say that he was deliberately acting scummy to avoid being NKed by scum because he's a town power role, so please don't lynch him, etc., I've seen scum do this before, in hopes of either getting the town to back off entirely or to out a real town power role who feels that they should counterclaim.

Well just because I thought zachrulez was scum doesn't mean I didn't stop thinking Wall-E was scum.

The two are not mutually exclusive, of course. I am also suspicious of Zach regardless of his interaction with Wall-E, and even more so since Wall-E now claims to have manufactured their dispute on purpose.

Time to put my vote where my suspicion and my mouth (well, my fingers, really) are.

Vote: Wall-E

That's L-1.

Regards,
Jazz

[Zachrulez]

Well just because I thought zachrulez was scum doesn't mean I didn't stop thinking Wall-E was scum.

The two are not mutually exclusive, of course. I am also suspicious of Zach regardless of his interaction with Wall-E, and even more so since Wall-E now claims to have manufactured their dispute on purpose.

Time to put my vote where my suspicion and my mouth (well, my fingers, really) are.

Vote: Wall-E

That's L-1.

Regards,
Jazz

Well I'm not sure what defense I can come up with for the connection you are implying I have with Wall-E, because HE manufactured the dispute... so... bleh.

At this point, a scumlist from Wall-E would be nice. He should probably claim at this point too...

[Amished]

Sorry to see you go LZ

@Zach: Yes, but I think the point is that scum can form disputes with other scum just to try to distance themselves from each other, so I think the point that Jazz is trying to make is that you will be judged on your own actions if Wall-E turns scum, and you won't be cleared because of it.

@Steph: Sounds good.

@Gateway: Nobody knows "facts" day one (if I'm understanding your usage of facts correctly) other than scum. However, people's posts are factual in the sense that they say what's on their mind, and if they slip, that's still a fact. Perhaps trying to look for slips or interesting interactions should be what you try to do, instead of basing everything on "facts" that can be subject to WIFOM and not get us anywhere day two and beyond?

@Everybody: I would like to wait with a Wall-E hammer until a) he has a chance to post/defend himself and b) people on the wagon have a chance to unvote (if they want to). WRT b); for me having the people that are already voting for him (Gateway, lordzoner, ryan2754, Zachrulez, Jazz, DDD) post is enough of a confirmation. So far, since Jazz put him at L-1, she's off my personal list, and Zach seems fine with it too, so he's off as well. I would assume with the tone of DDD's vote post that he's ok with it as well, but I'm not going to be so bold as to say.

Unfortunately, LZ, who will be leaving us, is already voting for Wall-E, and I'm not exactly sure what to do in this situation. So to finish this post off, I'd like to have Gateway and Ryan give their thoughts on a Wall-E lynch, and everyone to give input on what to do about LZ leaving us with a vote on the L-1 right now.

[X]

Vote Count

Wall-E

: (6) Debonair Danny DiPietro, Gateway, Jazzmyn,

lordzoner

, ryan2754, Zachrulez

Stephoscope

: (3) Amished,

Pitstop

, Wall-E

Amished

: (2) AshKetchummm, Stephoscope

Not Voting

: (1) alexhans

Vote Threshold

: 7

Happiness with Posting Level

:

Neutral

Pitstop has asked to be replaced.

[ryan2754]

@ryan: What exactly did you think was weak reasoning, or something that you saw that was suspicious? If people are attacked, I expect them to defend. If they see something, I expect them to attack. What about it would you have "attacked" if given the opportunity?

@ryan: What is holding you back on a Wall-E vote if you're so suspicious of him? If you don't think he's worth it, there's some town tells or something that you've seen that obviously several of us haven't. Care to share?

Well, I understand the idea of attacking and defending (that's the point of the game, no?), but sometimes, when people defend or attack there is a slight aura of scumminess attached. It's mainly how deep of an extent they attack or defend, and how contrived their argument seems to be. The scum always have more information than us. They can choose to attack/defend cit and scum alike, so attacking and defending by itself it a null tell. You need to look at the extent and the language used.

The reason I held back a Wall-E vote was mainly because of meta. No matter how much Gateway and others feel meta isn't important, it definitely is. I play on other boards, and it's the same 35 people or so playing in the games, and meta becomes extremely important, considering you can actively read (and most people know just from playing so much) about the playing style of certain people. If you have ever played a game with Empking, you'll know how important meta is in the other games he plays. I have looked at one of Wall-E's other games, and well, he is playing very similarly. So I was willing to give an unvote as to give him the benefit of the doubt based on meta. Like I said, the vote is the most important thing we as town have at our disposal. But then, I went back and looked at his posts in isolation, and well, it was enough for me to go back and revote him.

@Everybody: I would like to wait with a Wall-E hammer until a) he has a chance to post/defend himself and b) people on the wagon have a chance to unvote (if they want to). WRT b); for me having the people that are already voting for him (Gateway, lordzoner, ryan2754, Zachrulez, Jazz, DDD) post is enough of a confirmation. So far, since Jazz put him at L-1, she's off my personal list, and Zach seems fine with it too, so he's off as well. I would assume with the tone of DDD's vote post that he's ok with it as well, but I'm not going to be so bold as to say.

Unfortunately, LZ, who will be leaving us, is already voting for Wall-E, and I'm not exactly sure what to do in this situation. So to finish this post off, I'd like to have Gateway and Ryan give their thoughts on a Wall-E lynch, and everyone to give input on what to do about LZ leaving us with a vote on the L-1 right now.

I don't get what you mean by personal list, etc. in the first paragraph above. Clarification?

I think looking at LZ right now is a dead end. He had stuff to do, so is asking for a replacement. When he gets a replacement, we can look at what that person says when it comes. No need to stress it now.

I have no problem with a Wall-E lynch, but personally I would also like a defense to come up and maybe a claim. If I had a problem with it, I wouldn't vote for him.
Again, a lynch is a data point, and well, like I said, looking at the voting analysis and patterns is one big thing for finding scum.

[Jazzmyn]

Well I'm not sure what defense I can come up with for the connection you are implying I have with Wall-E, because HE manufactured the dispute... so... bleh.

Yeah, sorry, I didn't explain that last part as well as I should have. What I meant in my prior post was that I am suspicious of you for (a) your protecting/defending of Steph (because unless you're scum, you don't know Steph's alignment - so you could be scum either protecting a scum buddy or buddying up to a townie), and (b) your interaction with Wall-E could easily be two scum pretending to go at each other very early on D1, in the random stage no less, for the express purpose of making it look like you aren't both of the same alignment, thus insulating one of you when the other flips scum down the road, since the other could point back to the early dust-up as 'evidence' that you were not of the same alignment. Since Wall-E made a point of claiming that he manufactured that dust-up with you, if he's scum, that would tend to indicate that he's trying to distance you from a failed 'early bussing' attempt. Of course, that only follows if one or both of you is scum. I hope that is clearer.

At this point, a scumlist from Wall-E would be nice. He should probably claim at this point too...

Agreed.

Regards,
Jazz

[PJ.]

I prolly will be replacing here I'm on page 5-6 reading. going to bed to wake up in 7ish hours.

[X]

Vote Count

Wall-E

: (6) Debonair Danny DiPietro, Gateway, Jazzmyn, Panzerjager, ryan2754, Zachrulez

Stephoscope

: (3) Amished,

Pitstop

, Wall-E

Amished

: (2) AshKetchummm, Stephoscope

Not Voting

: (1) alexhans

Vote Threshold

: 7

Happiness with Posting Level

:

Neutral

Panzerjager replaces lordzoner. Thanks, Panzerjager!

[Amished]

Personal list was referring to the list of players that I felt had or had not talked about L-1 directly or indirectly. While you or others might not feel that just a random post or something declares them a-ok for the L-1, it implies that they are fine with it to me.

Also, I'm happy to be the first to welcome Panzer as well, thanks for replacing in

[Stephoscope]

Yeah, sorry, I didn't explain that last part as well as I should have. What I meant in my prior post was that I am suspicious of you for (a) your protecting/defending of Steph (because unless you're scum, you don't know Steph's alignment - so you could be scum either protecting a scum buddy or buddying up to a townie), and (b) your interaction with Wall-E could easily be two scum pretending to go at each other very early on D1, in the random stage no less, for the express purpose of making it look like you aren't both of the same alignment, thus insulating one of you when the other flips scum down the road, since the other could point back to the early dust-up as 'evidence' that you were not of the same alignment. Since Wall-E made a point of claiming that he manufactured that dust-up with you, if he's scum, that would tend to indicate that he's trying to distance you from a failed 'early bussing' attempt. Of course, that only follows if one or both of you is scum. I hope that is clearer.

I'm glad you're in the game, Jazz. conspicuous_other hadn't given us too much to work with, but you seem pretty town (or at least working hard on our behalf )

Also a hearty welcome to panzerjager.

I don't think I have much more to bring up until Wall-E and the players with votes on him all have checked in. While we're waiting on that, I think I have time for a thorough re-read today. While focused on Amished (which I still am to some extent, something about his logic really doesn't sit right with me), I kinda lost track of everything else going on.

[Wall-E]

I'm a vanilla townie. I am no threat to the town.

I'm most suspicious of Stephoscope.

Nobody else on my radar ATM.

[alexhans]

I'm a vanilla townie. I am no threat to the town.

I'm most suspicious of Stephoscope.

Nobody else on my radar ATM.

WTF??? How dare you claim on DAy 1!!?? even if it's true it just makes the possiblility of PR dying bigger!

[alexhans]

oh... no... I thought it was the other game with 7 people... I'm not up to date with this game yet... need a bit more time... please mod delete the posts if you can because they talk about other games.

X:

Nothing was revealed, and posts have already been seen. Request denied.

[Wall-E]

I'm not good at this game, so I don't know what you mean. I'm at L-1, so I claimed.

[Zachrulez]

I'm a vanilla townie. I am no threat to the town.

I'm most suspicious of Stephoscope.

Nobody else on my radar ATM.

WTF??? How dare you claim on DAy 1!!?? even if it's true it just makes the possiblility of PR dying bigger!

Are you kidding?

[Wall-E]

I wouldn't mind being the D1 lynch, if it will somehow save a PR.

[alexhans]

I'm a vanilla townie. I am no threat to the town.

I'm most suspicious of Stephoscope.

Nobody else on my radar ATM.

WTF??? How dare you claim on DAy 1!!?? even if it's true it just makes the possiblility of PR dying bigger!

Are you kidding?

No... read the post below that one... Im in an ongoing game of 7 people with wall-e and i thought he had claimed without need... So I went Berserk... Then I realized it was the wrong game (I look at them in the "watched topics" tab)

I'm really not following this game since I haven't got internet right now cause I moved before yesterday...
I'll catch up by thursday. Thanks. And Sorry.

[PJ.]

Unvote: Vote:Steph

I'm with Amished on this one.

[X]

Vote Count

Wall-E

: (5) Debonair Danny DiPietro, Gateway, Jazzmyn, ryan2754, Zachrulez

Stephoscope

: (4) Amished, LesterGroans, Panzerjager, Wall-E

Amished

: (2) AshKetchummm, Stephoscope

Not Voting

: (1) alexhans

Vote Threshold

: 7

Happiness with Posting Level

:

Neutral

LesterGroans replaces Pitstop. Thanks, LesterGroans!

[LesterGroans]

Hey, just checking in, going to read over the thread right now...

[LesterGroans]

Okay, after reading through and getting a general gist of the arguments, cases and defenses being made I'm going to go ahead and:

Unvote

I don't think Steph has displayed enough suspicious behaviour, seems more subdued(which could be dangerous, but I'm just not getting that vibe yet). Wall-E is definitely abrasive, but I don't know if that points to Scum yet.

Of the top three vote-getters currently I'm leaning to most towards Amished, but I'm going to have another read-through and go from there.

[Jazzmyn]

Yeah, sorry, I didn't explain that last part as well as I should have. What I meant in my prior post was that I am suspicious of you for (a) your protecting/defending of Steph (because unless you're scum, you don't know Steph's alignment - so you could be scum either protecting a scum buddy or buddying up to a townie), and (b) your interaction with Wall-E could easily be two scum pretending to go at each other very early on D1, in the random stage no less, for the express purpose of making it look like you aren't both of the same alignment, thus insulating one of you when the other flips scum down the road, since the other could point back to the early dust-up as 'evidence' that you were not of the same alignment. Since Wall-E made a point of claiming that he manufactured that dust-up with you, if he's scum, that would tend to indicate that he's trying to distance you from a failed 'early bussing' attempt. Of course, that only follows if one or both of you is scum. I hope that is clearer.

I'm glad you're in the game, Jazz. conspicuous_other hadn't given us too much to work with, but you seem pretty town (or at least working hard on our behalf )

Also a hearty welcome to panzerjager.

I don't think I have much more to bring up until Wall-E and the players with votes on him all have checked in. While we're waiting on that, I think I have time for a thorough re-read today. While focused on Amished (which I still am to some extent, something about his logic really doesn't sit right with me), I kinda lost track of everything else going on.

Now, you see, Steph, this post of yours just made me have second thoughts about you.

Why are you quoting my post which was directed to Zach, not you, and using it to suck up to me by saying that you are "glad [I'm] in the game, and that

"seem pretty town"?

In my (admittedly limited) experience, it is typically scum who do this. They do so in order to try to distance themselves from the NK to follow. Scum says, "oh, X sure seems like town" or "great to have you here" or "X is obv-town" and then they NK that player overnight and hope that their *cough* 'friendly' *cough* posts from the day before will insulate them from suspicion about the NK, and hope that their *cough* 'friendly' *cough* posts from the day before will make them look town rather than the scum they are.

I've been NKed twice by scum who utilized that very method (ongoing games, can't say more) so I'm not enamoured of your post. To the town: if I'm NKed tonight, you know where to look first.

Regards,
Jazz

[PJ.]

I don't like how Jazz tried to jump on that wagon when if she wasn't already on it Wall-E would have been lynched...but I totally agree that Steph was exetremely scummy with that welcome.

[Stephoscope]

Now, you see, Steph, this post of yours just made me have second thoughts about you.

Why are you quoting my post which was directed to Zach, not you, and using it to suck up to me by saying that you are "glad [I'm] in the game, and that

"seem pretty town"?

Sigh...I wasn't "sucking up" to anyone. I have been disappointed in the lack of participation from some players in this game. I avoided calling them out by name, because the last time I took the initiative to try and keep things moving, it initiated an attack against me, which I didn't mind going through once, but would be very counter-productive to happen again. Anyway, the player you replaced was absolutely one of those players.

I'm not liking how you opened up a whole can of WIFOM with your little NK speculation. If you're town, now mafia could make a point of NKing you, and then have a ready-made case for lynching me the next day. Thanks!

[PJ.]

Well, thanks for giving them a solid plan =)