Open Setup Certification Group

[mith]

Actually, I suspect it would be less of an issue with power roles. The reason for the NL/sac strategies in vanilla is that the best thing for the town to do sometimes is to reduce the options and hope the scum kill each other. With power roles (particularly information roles), there are other ways of catching scum, and of eliminating possibilities. Hard to say for sure, though.

One obvious way it does change things (though not to "fix" it and make it more like Mafia) is that if there is a confirmed innocent in a 1-1-2, the best play is now for the other innocent to sac himself and put it into a full-knowledge Prisoner's Dilemma (which is game theoretically a win for the town, though of course in practice it doesn't always work out that way). 1-1-2 being a town win in those situations would ripple back into the strategies for larger numbers of players.

[mith]

(One interesting thing to calculate, along with the EV for the town, would be the percentage of games that end up in a "NL or sac is the best strategy" situation.)

[shaft.ed]

Actually, I suspect it would be less of an issue with power roles. The reason for the NL/sac strategies in vanilla is that the best thing for the town to do sometimes is to reduce the options and hope the scum kill each other. With power roles (particularly information roles), there are other ways of catching scum, and of eliminating possibilities. Hard to say for sure, though.

Don't most information gathering roles also benefit from a No Lynch strategy since their lifetimes are increased and they have more nights to gather info? It seems adding a Cop would just double down on the motivation for town to No Lynch.

[mith]

I'm talking strictly about near the end of the game, when most of the information has already been gathered.

At the beginning of the game, the main effect of power roles would probably be swing; a Cop might finger one of the scum D2, and hurt that scumgroup's chances (helping the town a bit, helping the other group more), and making it less likely it ends up in a X-X-Y endgame in the first place. Given how difficult it is to do EVs on even simple games with Cops, I hesitate to guess what the optimal strategy of the town would be in such a situation.

I think we're getting to a point that we can say that games with multiple, symmetrical scum groups may not be the best idea.

[shaft.ed]

I think we're getting to a point that we can say that games with multiple, symmetrical scum groups may not be the best idea.

But they're generally enjoyable no? It seems players are generally happy with having played them after the fact.

[Elmo]

I've always vastly preferred games with a single mafia group, I dunno about everyone else. That said I haven't played many with multiple group scum factions.

[Adel]

the worst case scenario for 2:2:n is something like Open 61 (2:2:8 vanilla) where both scum factions lost after they cross killed the other last surviving opposing member N2. The scum players didn't seem to mind losing that way. IIRC, Guardian was really proud of replacing in, lynching an opposing scum player, and killing the last one the following night, even though he lost.

edited out my spellcheck fail

[shaft.ed]

I may be biased. I was scum and I won

[Xylthixlm]

Propose we cerify 2:2:9

[Adel]

Propose we cerify 2:2:9

2nd.

[Lord Gurgi]

Propose we cerify 2:2:9

2nd.

Sure. I recall suggesting this ages ago. :roll:

[Xylthixlm]

I know this isn't in our list (except maybe as mountainous), but I'd like a certify of

mountainous 1:4

- day start, obviously. The EV is the simple (4/5) * (2/3) = 8/15 for scum, 7/15 for town.

[Mr. Flay]

Is that one that IRC runs, Xyl? What's the actual results thus far?

I would expect town to do better than EV in that setup, personally.

[Korts]

certify 2:2:9

Can a game where the scum is a single person and thus has no connections be called mafia? I'm not entirely convinced of that. Based on this I'm leaning no on 1:4.

[Empking]

Its not normal.

[Adel]

Can a game where the scum is a single person and thus has no connections be called mafia? I'm not entirely convinced of that. Based on this I'm leaning no on 1:4.

ditto.

[shaft.ed]

Can a game where the scum is a single person and thus has no connections be called mafia? I'm not entirely convinced of that. Based on this I'm leaning no on 1:4.

ditto.

Meh, it's still an informed minority vs. uninformed majority. I have no problem with it.

[shaft.ed]

OK so we've certified 2 v 2 v 9 presumably vanilla.

Should we discuss power roles?

2v2v8 power roles were: (for simplicity I'm labeling one mafia group A and the other B).

Masons and Monks: 2 non-A masons and 2 non-B masons
Freinds and Enemies and Enemies: 3 non-mafia masons
Quack Multiball: 2 Docs, 6 Quacks (please no)
Twofold Mafia: 1 Doc, 1 A-Cop, 1 B-Cop


I think there were more, but I don't have time to dig right now.

[Simenon]

I think you guys should talk about "too much scum" setups (Baby TMS, Jungle Republic, Kelly Chen's repertoire, etc.)

[Korts]

Masons and Monks: no opinion at this point.

Friends and Enemies and Enemies: in this form, I think it hurts mafia, because if the masons claim they can't counterclaim (3-man masonship vs. 2-man scumteams). This was the reason for the Friends and Enemies and Enemies and that Other Guy fix (2-man masonship plus backup mason).

Quack Multiball: definitely not. Way too many night actions, and quacks kill, don't they? Half the town would get massacred Night 1.

Twofold Mafia: no opinion at this point.

[Thok]

It's seems sort of silly to start talking about certifying Friends and Enemies and Enemies without discussing Friends and Enemies (3 masons, 3 mafia, 6 townies or something like that) first.

[Xylthixlm]

Someone should go

troll

sift through the open setup discussion thread for any good ones to certify.

[Adel]

It's seems sort of silly to start talking about certifying Friends and Enemies and Enemies without discussing Friends and Enemies (3 masons, 3 mafia, 6 townies or something like that) first.

2 comes before 3. We are counting up.

~~~

Can we all agree on two-fold? I think that one is certain to go through, we just have to certify a number of townies, and possibly write the role pms to prevent mod error.

[Lord Gurgi]

I have no problem with 1:4. It seems like a good setup, to me. If we're going to be a stickler based on the number of mafia, not their nature, there's really no hope.

[Xylthixlm]

I tried running 1:4 mountainous for marathon day. It lasted three minutes.

I'm not sure if that's a minus or a plus.