Mini 761 - Game Over

[Wall-E]

So why are you still voting for him?

I am usually slow to change my vote, with some exceptions.

[Wall-E]

Feeling persecuted yet Stephoscope? Personally I think the attacks on you have been unfair.

I would like to hear your thoughts on myself and Wall-E though.

I'm not sure how much else I have to say about that exchange. I felt Wall-E's behavior has been peculiar throughout much of this game. I didn't like him placing a vote on you so quickly...given that his rationale was flimsy, he refused to label you as "scummy" even though his vote would seem to indicate that, and he actually shifted his vote to someone else a bit later at the drop of the hat. I think there was something to alexhans's statement to Wall-E in 126 that "you (Wall-E) just wan't a lynch that's not you."

I don't think I see any problem in how you defended yourself.

I've just determined that Stephoscope is a townie.

If anyone is still agitated by my plays: Keep these two things in mind.

1) I never called anyone Scummy, I said Anti-Town.
2) If anybody lynches before I'm comfortable with them doing so, I will do everything in my power to get them killed if they are even a little bit scummy.

I hope this post clears some things up.

[Wall-E]

@Steph: There are always reasons for questions. I don't care if the question is how old are you, or why did you step on that cat's tail, but there's always a reason.

I would've rather taken option 3, actually looking for some valid points to go after somebody. As to your take on Wall-E, the way I see it is that you wanted to vote for him, so asking him a question is trying to (like you said) help or hurt his case as a scum/town player. Even that is an underlying reason to ask somebody about their playstyle. Heck, I probably would've ignored your question like Wall-E did until you brought it up that it was so important to you, and still probably wouldn't have given you a non-sarcastic answer.

If a question is unbiased I will answer as truthfully as possible. Sometimes detecting bias is a great scumtell, and so I keep quiet about my own thoughts on the motives of others.

I suspect that Amished is defending me because he knows I'm town.

Unvote: Vote: Amished

The times I'm most preachy to the town are when I'm a big, fat, grinning scumball, stating the obvious and cliche to gain townpoints:

Who really knows who's 100% innocent other than a sane cop (or insane with counterproof) and the mafia? As town we have to take some chances from time to time and voting who we think is most likely scum, not just people who are 100% scum.

What say you, Amished? Why have you been defending me? Are you using valid logic or doing it because you know I'd flip town, and you want to pump up your stock? Will you rise to my challenge? Argue against your own points, or validate them by rationalizing my plays as a townie!

*grabs a beer and kicks back on the couch*

I'm going to call this 'Lazy man's mafia.'

[Zachrulez]

1) I never called anyone Scummy, I said Anti-Town.
2) If anybody lynches before I'm comfortable with them doing so, I will do everything in my power to get them killed if they are even a little bit scummy.

I hope this post clears some things up.

1. There's a thin line between scummy and Anti-Town. Two important distinctions, Scummy equals Anti-Town, but Anti-Town doesn't always equal scummy. These arguments are usually on thin ice, so you should be careful about throwing the words around anyway.

2. You probably don't want to reveal strategies you will potentially use against scum. They probably won't put themselves in a situation to allow you to do this to them now, and it's more likely you will be lynching townies who do this now...

Just my two cents.

[X]

Vote Count

Amished

: (3) AshKetchummm, Wall-E, Zachrulez

Wall-E

: (3) Gateway, lordzoner, ryan2754

Stephoscope

: (2) Amished, Pitstop

Not Voting

: (4) alexhans, Conspicuous_other, Debonair Danny DiPietro, Stephoscope

Vote Threshold

: 7

Happiness with Posting Level

:

HAPPY

[Amished]

My main point/major scumtell that I saw against Steph is the last line in 109, specifically :

If there were a deadline and I were forced to vote right now, it would be for Wall-E. But I haven't yet seen enough to make me feel confident in that vote.

Granted, I do not have that much experience, but from what I've seen and read, I've yet to come across a townie that soft-voted like he did. Obviously there is no deadline, wasn't a threat of one or anything like that. Therefore, he's comfortable with voting for him if "necessary" but without confidence. To me, this is saying he wants to be on the wagon to lynch Wall-E, but is .. shoring his bets if Wall-E flipped town. This also ties into Wall-E's now vote for me. As I feel that Steph is scum, and is wishy-washy about Wall-E, that puts points towards Wall-E being town in my book.

Zach: What about my "too-hard" is confusing to you? I try to be as clear as I can

Wall-E: What made you determine that Stephoscope is a townie rather all of a sudden? I fail to see how anything I said was "obvious" as so many people are questioning me about it. I also fail to see where I've been preachy. The quote that you brought up is my counterpoint against something that (I believe steph, but could be wrong) said. If there's something that obvious that contradicts what another person says, I'm going to point it out to show that they're wrong. Otherwise I've never asked anybody to do anything, but I've said what I thought was scummy and what my opinions are on various points rather than being "preachy".

Obviously, I'm trying to use the best logic I have, as anything less isn't helpful to the town. Do you not have an opinion on my logic that you're asking me how I feel about it? I also don't really see how if you get lynched and you're town it'd help me as an individual or as a group. Individually, it reduces somebody on town side that I had thought is town, and as a group it's dwindling our numbers.

[Amished]

EBWOP: After thinking some more, Wall-E, are you really trying to imply that I'm defending somebody that obviously a lot of people thought was scummy who also admitted to making newbie mistakes that can be construed as scummy often? What possible motivation would I have for that? Do you even think through some of the things you say?

[Zachrulez]

Wall-E: What made you determine that Stephoscope is a townie rather all of a sudden? I fail to see how anything I said was "obvious" as so many people are questioning me about it. I also fail to see where I've been preachy. The quote that you brought up is my counterpoint against something that (I believe steph, but could be wrong) said. If there's something that obvious that contradicts what another person says, I'm going to point it out to show that they're wrong. Otherwise I've never asked anybody to do anything, but I've said what I thought was scummy and what my opinions are on various points rather than being "preachy".

Obviously, I'm trying to use the best logic I have, as anything less isn't helpful to the town. Do you not have an opinion on my logic that you're asking me how I feel about it? I also don't really see how if you get lynched and you're town it'd help me as an individual or as a group. Individually, it reduces somebody on town side that I had thought is town, and as a group it's dwindling our numbers.

I hate that you drew attention to this...

[Zachrulez]

While stating that it was stupid of Wall-E to declare Steph town in the first place, it's also bad to draw attention to it... it's akin to drawing a bulls eye on his back if the assertion is accurate... and could potentially be even worse if Wall-E's wrong and Steph is scum.

[Wall-E]

I said Steph was town as a joke. She was explaining my thought-process for me rather than waiting for me to say it, so I dubbed her Town for helping to keep my ass out of the fire. Yes, that's right. Amished helps me, I call him scum. Steph helps me, I call her town. The difference is one of tone and gut interpretation on my own part. If you want a further explaination I'll happily give one.

Zachrules: What was the point of 157?

Amished: I almost had you there.

[Zachrulez]

Hypocrite much? You expect the subject to be dropped now that you said saying Steph was town was a joke?!

Anyway... if you were paying attention... 158 elaborated on 157.

What's more striking is that Amished was interested in how much evidence there was to back up your declaration that Steph was town... why else would he ask about it?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Amished: I almost had you there.

Seems like he's admitting to trying to bait Amished. Wall-E's arguments have been poor, he tried to pick a fight with Zach over RVS and pre-emptively tried to defend against claims of hypocrisy and poor play. His actions have been largely anti-town in such a manner that it seems he's likely to be scum.

Vote: Wall-E

Furthermore, I agree with Amished that scum hunting "too hard" is a bad thing (though not a scum-tell), the town needs to uncover the truth. If you're working too hard to find scum and isolating the smallest details you're either neglecting the bigger picture or manufacturing issues where there are none.

[Stephoscope]

I don't have much more to post until I hear more from certain others. I think we are making a big mistake if we end this day without getting everyone seriously involved. (and please note I've been saying that all along...not just after I had a few votes placed on me.)

I'm definitely eager to hear what others think of Amished's assertion that my statement "If there were a deadline and I were forced to vote right now, it would be for Wall-E. But I haven't yet seen enough to make me feel confident in that vote" is inherently scummy. Not only do I absolutely stand by that statement, and my having made it (well, at least for the time it was made...I need to re-evaluate how I feel about things going forward), but I also think we are setting bad bad precedent if we're going to jump on everyone who pipes up with something different/unexpected. I WANT to hear people's ideas on what might be scummy. I WANT to hear people's honest declarations of where they stand voting-wise. (Is what I said all that much different than a simple FoS? Is an FoS now considered a scumtell?) A game in which people are afraid to speak up is not only going to be a pretty uninteresting game, but it's also one in which the scum will likely have a huge advantage.

[Stephoscope]

Oh and, I'm a guy. Sorry for any confusion...I thought I had already updated my gender.

[Zachrulez]

I don't have much more to post until I hear more from certain others. I think we are making a big mistake if we end this day without getting everyone seriously involved. (and please note I've been saying that all along...not just after I had a few votes placed on me.)

I'm definitely eager to hear what others think of Amished's assertion that my statement "If there were a deadline and I were forced to vote right now, it would be for Wall-E. But I haven't yet seen enough to make me feel confident in that vote" is inherently scummy. Not only do I absolutely stand by that statement, and my having made it (well, at least for the time it was made...I need to re-evaluate how I feel about things going forward), but I also think we are setting bad bad precedent if we're going to jump on everyone who pipes up with something different/unexpected. I WANT to hear people's ideas on what might be scummy. I WANT to hear people's honest declarations of where they stand voting-wise. (Is what I said all that much different than a simple FoS? Is an FoS now considered a scumtell?) A game in which people are afraid to speak up is not only going to be a pretty uninteresting game, but it's also one in which the scum will likely have a huge advantage.

God damn, you're going to be a great mafiascum player one day.

Absolutely love this post.

[alexhans]

@amished: I will never be against trying too hard to find scum... Posting will always spark discussion and in the end it's up to us to decide if he a person is scum or not.
With your reasoning you appear to be suggesting that we shut up because we're trying to hard... I mean... How is not posting helpful? Sometimes you may feel you have nothing to say so you try digging in to irrelevant details and watch reactions... If people are going to vote you for that then screw them. They deserve to loose.
concerning the too scummy... I think that's a huge gamble that almost never comes right.

@gateway: Hope you get better soon and come back with the game winning theory

post 150 and 151 just mess with my state of mind! :S.

So why are you still voting for him?

I am usually slow to change my vote, with some exceptions.

Even if you're satisfied with the answer that he gave you? That he townishly answered the only question that made you think he was scum?

I've just determined that Stephoscope is a townie.

If anyone is still agitated by my plays: Keep these two things in mind.

1) I never called anyone Scummy, I said Anti-Town.
2) If anybody lynches before I'm comfortable with them doing so, I will do everything in my power to get them killed if they are even a little bit scummy.

I hope this post clears some things up.

1- So? You didn't answer my question about what do you think anti-town means... You think it's a role that has different goals than the town or a townie that plays badly?

PLEASE ANSWER THIS.

2- I don't know what to say... You're just saying that you're vindictive or something as oppose to reasonable? How is that protown?
---------------
on the other hand... Post 152 really surprised me... It started badly. Didn't like the bias argument nor the vote until I saw the quote:

Who really knows who's 100% innocent other than a sane cop (or insane with counterproof) and the mafia? As town we have to take some chances from time to time and voting who we think is most likely scum, not just people who are 100% scum.

The fact that he says we should not lynch people who are 100 % scum is REALLY weird.

regarding 155. I think that your case is weaker than Steph's. I don't really see anything wrong with stephs 109.

post 159: urgh... back to THAT kind of posts... I really don't understand what you're trying to say... care to elaborate your thoughts in a more tidy fashion? What's that about saying steph was town is a joke? havent you heard about lynch all liars? Do you even want to live? because it seems that you ask for a lynch every 2 posts.

[alexhans]

Happiness with Posting Level

:

HAPPY

It's good to see our mod Happy.

[Pitstop]

I said Steph was town as a joke. She was explaining my thought-process for me rather than waiting for me to say it, so I dubbed her Town for helping to keep my ass out of the fire. Yes, that's right. Amished helps me, I call him scum. Steph helps me, I call her town. The difference is one of tone and gut interpretation on my own part. If you want a further explaination I'll happily give one.

Zachrules: What was the point of 157?

Amished: I almost had you there.

If you could elaborate on this comment that would be great. It's very vague, yet comes across as something someone anti-town or scum would say.

[Zachrulez]

on the other hand... Post 152 really surprised me... It started badly. Didn't like the bias argument nor the vote until I saw the quote:

Who really knows who's 100% innocent other than a sane cop (or insane with counterproof) and the mafia? As town we have to take some chances from time to time and voting who we think is most likely scum, not just people who are 100% scum.

The fact that he says we should not lynch people who are 100 % scum is REALLY weird.

Nice catch Alex.

Amished should be the lynch of the day I think.

Despite generally disagreeing with Wall-E's style of play, my suspicions of him are fading.

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

You guys are pretty dumb. Amished isn't saying that we shouldn't lynch people we know are 100% scum, those are the obvious lynches. But rarely do we actually know (as in confirmation) that anyone is for sure scum, so the town has to take some risks by lynching people who we think are scum, but that we don't know are scum.

[Zachrulez]

Insults won't get you far.

It's hard to understand what exactly he's saying because he words the statement badly. "As town we have to take some chances from time to time and voting who we think is most likely scum, not just people who are 100% scum."

As town we have to take chances and vote for who we think is mostly scum and not just the people who we KNOW are scum?

Who's really the dumb one here? The people who can't understand what he's saying, or the guy saying it?

It's not like that's the main reason I think Amished should be lynched anyway.

He talks about how trying too hard is a bad thing... but the way he tries to make something out of nothing out of Stephoscope is a

prime example

of trying too hard to scumhunt.

Doing the very things you are preaching against is pretty damn scummy in my book.

Or are we going to give him points for saying that we should "take chances?"

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

It's hard to understand what exactly he's saying because he words the statement badly. "As town we have to take some chances from time to time and voting who we think is most likely scum, not just people who are 100% scum."

As town we have to take chances and vote for who we think is mostly scum and not just the people who we KNOW are scum?

Who's really the dumb one here? The people who can't understand what he's saying, or the guy saying it?

No, his phraseology isn't the best, but it's called context, he clearly defined how we know anything 100% and since we obviously often don't have that information it's obvious that he's pointing out that we have to just do our best without it, because simply waiting for confirmation isn't an option.

And no, Amished doesn't get "town points" for the post, but there's nothing in there to indict him as scum either. On the other hand you and alexhans completely missed the plot and then blamed Amished for it, so hey you both earned some more "scum points".

[Zachrulez]

It's hard to understand what exactly he's saying because he words the statement badly. "As town we have to take some chances from time to time and voting who we think is most likely scum, not just people who are 100% scum."

As town we have to take chances and vote for who we think is mostly scum and not just the people who we KNOW are scum?

Who's really the dumb one here? The people who can't understand what he's saying, or the guy saying it?

No, his phraseology isn't the best, but it's called context, he clearly defined how we know anything 100% and since we obviously often don't have that information it's obvious that he's pointing out that we have to just do our best without it, because simply waiting for confirmation isn't an option.

And no, Amished doesn't get "town points" for the post, but there's nothing in there to indict him as scum either. On the other hand you and alexhans completely missed the plot and then blamed Amished for it, so hey you both earned some more "scum points".

Fair enough... but hey, why'd you ignore the rest of my post?

[Debonair Danny DiPietro]

Because the rest was either pointless or an indictment of Amished and I figured I'd let Amished defend himself when it came to the actual arguments.

[alexhans]

You guys are pretty dumb.

Thanks for the free insult. Why don't you let Amish defend himself instead of putting words into his mouth? We interpretated the post our way you in yours... Amish should clarify.

Amished isn't saying that we shouldn't lynch people we know are 100% scum, those are the obvious lynches.

And I actually disagree strongly with what you think... If we know that someone is 100% scum let's focus on others because he is obv scum and we can lynch him another day? that's not right.

But rarely do we actually know (as in confirmation) that anyone is for sure scum, so the town has to take some risks by lynching people who we think are scum, but that we don't know are scum.

Isn't this always the case? if we don't know that anyone is 100 % scum until he is lynched... why all the fuss?

No, his phraseology isn't the best, but it's called context,

he clearly defined

how we know anything 100% and since we obviously often don't have that information

it's obvious

that he's pointing out that we have to just do our best without it, because simply waiting for confirmation isn't an option.

Clearly defined? It's obvious? What does everyone else think about this?

On the other hand you and alexhans completely missed the plot and then blamed Amished for it, so hey you both earned some more "scum points".

I missed the plot you just invented... I blamed Amished? how? with this?:

The fact that he says we should not lynch people who are 100 % scum is REALLY weird.

... Isn't it understandable that I find weird what he says? Or, if you think I misinterpreted, what I thought he said? Why do I earn scumpoints for that...?

IGMEOY Dannyboy